161 réponses à ce sujet

[Mlady]

That's unlikely: the creation of the Veil predates the Tevinter Imperium, and there are no sources about the old gods before the Imperium.
Besides, the voice of the old gods has been heard for a millennium after the foundation fo the empire, that is clearly state both by the Chant of light both by Corypheus.

 

 

 

Corypheus memories.

 

 

Trenodies

 

Canticle of silence

 

 

I'm thinking the old gods were always dragons, the Veil might have weakened them over time. Dragons are also resistant to the taint because they have some in them naturally. Dragons once ruled the skies before the Veil. There's a link in there somewhere, but the dates don't have to match, just the affects of the Veil.

 

If we want to find a connection, I don't see the Evanuris as the Old Gods, but possibly overtaken by them and then to mock them, the Evanuris took their form. I think Mythal was an Old God though, kept in secret and disguised uintil she was revealed. Might explain why the Keeper of Secrets is mentioned with her as well as betrayal (maybe killed for her blood since dragon blood fights the taint, which it seems the elves found by mistake). She cares enough to save them, so I suspect it's deeper than a plan to stop Solas and Solas himself who was loyal to her also hates the Old Gods being killed.

[Ariella]

I'm thinking the old gods were always dragons, the Veil might have weakened them over time. Dragons are also resistant to the taint because they have some in them naturally. Dragons once ruled the skies before the Veil. There's a link in there somewhere, but the dates don't have to match, just the affects of the Veil.

Interesting little tidbits:

Two of the dragons in DA2 are at the Bone Pit, a place where the Veil is extremely thin. The third is just down the hall from the red lyrium idol, and iirc red lyrium does weaken the Veil.

The High Dragon in DAO is at the Temple of Sacred Ashes, which most likely has a thinning Veil, being so ancient a site. The two other dragons are in the Mage Tower, again dating back to the Imperium and the Elven Ruin in the Brecilian forest again being a site with a great deal of history, most likely has a thinning Veil.

Four of the dragons I remember for DAI lair in ruins. The Emerald Graves has seen a lot of death, so the condition may exist there are well.

I'm thinking that dragons try to build lairs near Veil weaknesses. They may not have to, but are probably drawn to them in some way.

The there's this:

On the worship of dragons
Let us suggest, for the moment, that a high dragon is simply an animal. A cunning animal, to be sure, but in possession of no true self-awareness or sentience. There has not, after all, been a single recorded case of a dragon attempting to communicate or performing any act that could not likewise be attributed to a clever beast. How, then, does one explain the existence of so-called "dragon cults" throughout history?

One dragon cult might be explainable, especially in light of the reverence of the Old Gods in the ancient Tevinter Imperium. In the wake of the first Blight, many desperate imperial citizens turned to the worship of real dragons to replace the Old Gods who had failed them. A dragon, after all, was a god-figure that they could see: It was there, as real as the archdemon itself, and, as evidence makes clear, did offer a degree of protection to its cultists.

Other dragon cults could be explained in light of the first. Some cult members might have survived and spread the word. The worship of the Old Gods was as widespread as the Imperium itself--certainly such secrets could have made their way into many hands. But there have been reports of dragon cults even in places where the Imperium never touched, among folks who had never heard of the Old Gods or had any reason to. How does one explain them?

Members of a dragon cult live in the same lair as a high dragon, nurturing and protecting its defenseless young. In exchange, the high dragon seem to permit those cultists to kill a small number of those young in order to feast on draconic blood. That blood is said to have a number of strange long-term effects, including bestowing greater strength and endurance, as well as an increased desire to kill. It may breed insanity as well. Nevarran dragon-hunters have said these cultists are incredibly powerful opponents. The changes in the cultists are a form of blood magic, surely, but how did the symbiotic relationship between the cult and the high dragon form in the first place? How did the cultists know to drink the dragon's blood? How did the high dragon convince them to care for its young, or know that they would?

Is there more to draconic intelligence than we have heretofore guessed at? No member of a dragon cult has ever been taken alive, and what accounts exist from the days of the Nevarran hunters record only mad rants and impossible tales of godhood. With dragons only recently reappearing and still incredibly rare, we may never know the truth, but the question remains.

--From Flame and Scale, by Brother Florian, Chantry scholar, 9:28 Dragon.

 

http://dragonage.wik...y:_Dragon_Cults

 

The Old Gods taught humanity blood magic, supposedly. 

 

And this:

 

Referred to as "Silence" in the common parlance, the constellation Silentir is historically attributed to Dumat, the Old God of Silence and leader of the ancient Tevinter pantheon. The depiction of the constellation, however, is often debated. Some depict a dragon in flight, while others (also the most common modern depictions) show a man carrying a horn and a wand. Some scholars believe these represented scales, which would point to this constellation being a supplantation of the elven Mythal, but nothing indicates this to be more than speculation.

--From A Study of Thedosian Astronomy by Sister Oran Petrarchius

 

http://dragonage.wik...ation:_Silentir

[robertthebard]

Fatal flaw #3,456,789: If the Old Gods == the Elven Gods, what was Morrigan after in the DR? We know that if you do the DR, you get the Old God's soul, so unless the Deep Roads are beyond the Veil where the False Elven Gods are trapped, this cannot be possible.

The merging of souls when a GW takes the killing blow is what kills the AD. So it's not like the soul isn't there, it is, corrupted, but there.

[azarhal]

 

And this:

 

Referred to as "Silence" in the common parlance, the constellation Silentir is historically attributed to Dumat, the Old God of Silence and leader of the ancient Tevinter pantheon. The depiction of the constellation, however, is often debated. Some depict a dragon in flight, while others (also the most common modern depictions) show a man carrying a horn and a wand. Some scholars believe these represented scales, which would point to this constellation being a supplantation of the elven Mythal, but nothing indicates this to be more than speculation.

--From A Study of Thedosian Astronomy by Sister Oran Petrarchius

 

http://dragonage.wik...ation:_Silentir

 

 

Although, about the Constellation codices. Fervanis is a leafless oak and Sister Oran says it probably belong to Andruil because it might represent the "Way of the Three Trees". The thing is, the leafless tree symbol has been associated to Mythal since DAO (via Flemeth's grimoire). Now it seems that dragons are more her things (and going by Yavana and shapeshifting, kinda understandable). Did Mythal stole more from Andruil than just her knowledge of getting to the Void.

[Ariella]

Although, about the Constellation codices. Fervanis is a leafless oak and Sister Oran says it probably belong to Andruil because it might represent the "Way of the Three Trees". The thing is, the leafless tree symbol has been associated to Mythal since DAO (via Flemeth's grimoire). Now it seems that dragons are more her things (and going by Yavana and shapeshifting, kinda understandable). Did Mythal stole more from Andruil than just her knowledge of getting to the Void.

Possibly. She may have taken part of Andruil's power in order to insure she couldn't go back. Or it may be the god of art reuse at work, considering that the Kirkwall sigil was all over elven ruins.

Unless that's Mythal's as well.

There's also mention of a possible eighth old god. If the Mythal as old god holds any water, that's most likely who it is.

I tend to think that the relationship between the Old Gods and the Elven one (sans Mythal and Solas) is adversarial in nature. I'm also thinking that it may have been the remaining 'gods' who talked Cory and friends into their little Fade road trip. Either seeking to use them to rend the Veil and free them, or taint them and send them back to taint the Old Gods for some reason.

I remember seeing something about Mythal throwing down the Titans and that there are many shrines to her beneath the ground. What if Bartrand's Folly is one of them, but corrupted somehow? This becomes especially interesting since the Claw of Dumat statue from the Adamant fade sequence looks like statuary in the Thaig. Again, may be art reuse or it may be Anders demonstrating that Tranquility can be cured even as he says it can't. Bioware is funny like that.

[Cobra's_back]

No, they are not. The Old Gods are not trapped in the Fade, in fact it seems they were once able to freely communicate with their dreaming worshippers through the Fade. Their prisons are physical, underground. Also, Solas hates the Evanuris, yet he is horrified at the idea of the Grey Wardens killing the Old Gods. The truth is we don't know what the Old Gods are. We don't know what Solas or Mythal, neither of whom have any reason to preserve the Evanuris, know that makes preserving the Old Gods so important. I feel I should also note that Mythal is the only elven god whose imagery regularly focuses on dragons. The Qunari lore indicates they really were dragons, "to dragons what kings are to ordinary men" whatever that means. That's all we know for sure.

The only fact that people keep latching onto with this is that there are seven of them, but that doesn't mean much.

I felt the Old Gods were the forgotten ones. Solas was able to move freely among the fake elven mage gods and the forgotten ones. Both called him friend. Could be why he hated the Wardens.

[LUIGI9393]

I felt the Old Gods were the forgotten ones. Solas was able to move freely among the fake elven mage gods and the forgotten ones. Both called him friend. Could be why he hated the Wardens.

At this point of the story it's pretty clear that the Forgotten Ones are not the old gods but the Forbidden One.

 

[Ranadiel Marius]

At this point of the story it's pretty clear that the Forgotten Ones are not the old gods but the Forbidden One.

And what is your evidence that a group of Elvhes that didn't believe the Evanuris were Gods and vowed to find their own path to power on the Earth (the Forgotten Ones) are the same as a group of spirits that refused to fight in a war on behalf of Evanuris and were therefore banished to the Fade (the Forbidden Ones)? Heck we know the names of three Forgotten Ones and none of them share names with the Forbidden Ones. They are two separate groups.

[kimgoold]

Sera's past is unknown as is Sandal's, Sera's codex even says that no trace can be found of Lady Emmauld - who's to say it doesn't correspond with a past blight/archdemon, and Sandal was discovered in the deep roads - who knows how long he was there, he could even be a Sha Brytol for all we know.

 

In one banter with Solas Sera even says binding magic didn't work for you (Emerald Graves - D'Onterrio Chateau) implying it may have worked for her?

 

Both maybe Evanuris false god souls reborn or not its just a theory, but we have no concrete evidence of how OLD they really are.

[kimgoold]

Just a thought, but the dwarves are the children of the stone, could the Blight be the result of a dead titan? Mythal's killing one possibly via a biological magic weapon created diseased organisms in the titan like white blood cells in leukaemia? except extremely contagious, this may be why the darkspawn are predominately genlock-dwarven?

 

Game lore does state that the darkspawn first appeared in the deep roads, overwhelming the dwarven empire before anyone even knew they existed, people just disappeared from the more remote thaigs and then the more remote thaigs themselves, before the darkspawn exploded to the surface as blights.

[Pedro Barrera]

And what is your evidence that a group of Elvhes that didn't believe the Evanuris were Gods and vowed to find their own path to power on the Earth (the Forgotten Ones) are the same as a group of spirits that refused to fight in a war on behalf of Evanuris and were therefore banished to the Fade (the Forbidden Ones)? Heck we know the names of three Forgotten Ones and none of them share names with the Forbidden Ones. They are two separate groups.

After a bit of research based on all the replies this post has had, I want to respond this question

The forgotten ones are the "bad counterpart" of the dalish pantheon. Little to nothing is known about them, hence the name.

The forbidden ones are a group of super powerful demons, who predate the Imperium, and are said to be the ones who taught men blood magic.

In Dragon Age 2, by progressing the sidequest "enigma of kirkwall" by the band of the three, you can find out that their investigation for the seekers of truth resulted in them discovering how the very structure of kirkwall is built to resemble magical symbols and how the Imperium was trying to weaken the veil there to a point of rupture. Hence why kirkwall has the most harrowing deaths in all circles and the highest blood magic practicing rate, Kirkwall attracts demons by its nature.

The last codex of the enigma of kirkwall refers to Xebenkeck as a "forgotten one" indicating that the forbidden ones and the forgotten ones might be the same. Later at trespasser, in the Vir Dathara library, you find a codex that IN A TACIT FORM indicates that "Xebenkeck and those alike him" are the forgotten ones, as they were exiled for denying help to the elvhen people by doing rituals to acquire a spirit form.

From here on out this is speculation. But it may be that the dalish legend of Fen Harel tricking "both clans of gods" is half true in the sense that maybe Solas tricked the forgotten ones into acquiring a body. Perhaps the one of a dragon. Then he presumably imprisoned them somehow.

It is to be noted that only 4 forbidden ones are known (thus far each protagonist MAY kill one of them so in DA4 we must see the protagonist MAYBE killing the formless one). And asides from that there have been 4 blights. And we know solas hates wardens. So it is possible that when a warden kills an archdemon, they actually free the soul of the forgotten one/forbidden one within the dragon. Hence it gets to be a free spirit once again. Explaining why solas would want the archdemons to remain untouched as they may release the forbidden one soul upon death at hands of a warden. We know from corypheus (not yet sure about the architect) that some blighted creatures dont just die at the hands of wardens... So it could be but its not a certainty

[Pedro Barrera]

Just a thought, but the dwarves are the children of the stone, could the Blight be the result of a dead titan? Mythal's killing one possibly via a biological magic weapon created diseased organisms in the titan like white blood cells in leukaemia? except extremely contagious, this may be why the darkspawn are predominately genlock-dwarven?

Game lore does state that the darkspawn first appeared in the deep roads, overwhelming the dwarven empire before anyone even knew they existed, people just disappeared from the more remote thaigs and then the more remote thaigs themselves, before the darkspawn exploded to the surface as blights.

A dalish born Viddathari in trespasser who has 3 codex in the deep roads stated that Mithal spoke to dwarves at a certain point. Also, despite its manipulations, its believed that the chant of light actually states that the maker didnt created dwarves. Also, we dont know how much of the memories has been deleted. So what you say could be but its too unlikely.

Indeed the dwarves are the children of the stone, the stone possibly refering the titans. And there may have been a violent interaction between elves and dwarves in the past, specially if we concider that in trespasser there are eluvians in the deep roads. And in the descent we see how the revered defender's sacred duty is to prevent "those who are not pure" from entering the body of a titan. I do believe they wared but i hardly think mithal did anything like that to them.

Genlocks are the most common darkspawn because darkspawn live underground and they require a living female ghoul to turn them into a brood mother so they can reproduce. Dwarven females are the easyest to reach so it makes sense they are the most common in the hordes. That doesnt mean that qunari or elves are unreachable. There are many ogres and shrieks... But to find a female elf, taint her, having her survive the taint and turn into a ghoul, then feeding her male ghouls for her to turn into a shriek-maker brood mother is harder than doing so to a dwarf. So there is nothing to speculate on dwarven darkspawn being the most numerous. Besides, in Descent Valta cunningly states how for some reason the darkspawn seem not to disturb the body of a titan, as there are no darkspawn in that titan... Yet there is but only one "maybe not", for a possible lore-hole exists. As there are darkspawn when you first meet Paragon Branka, and there is an annoyingly large ammount of liryum veins between you and Caridin's boss battle (and even during that, he, a golem, can sometimes use them to heal)

[Ranadiel Marius]

After a bit of research based on all the replies this post has had, I want to respond this question

The forgotten ones are the "bad counterpart" of the dalish pantheon. Little to nothing is known about them, hence the name.

The forbidden ones are a group of super powerful demons, who predate the Imperium, and are said to be the ones who taught men blood magic.

In Dragon Age 2, by progressing the sidequest "enigma of kirkwall" by the band of the three, you can find out that their investigation for the seekers of truth resulted in them discovering how the very structure of kirkwall is built to resemble magical symbols and how the Imperium was trying to weaken the veil there to a point of rupture. Hence why kirkwall has the most harrowing deaths in all circles and the highest blood magic practicing rate, Kirkwall attracts demons by its nature.

The last codex of the enigma of kirkwall refers to Xebenkeck as a "forgotten one" indicating that the forbidden ones and the forgotten ones might be the same. Later at trespasser, in the Vir Dathara library, you find a codex that IN A TACIT FORM indicates that "Xebenkeck and those alike him" are the forgotten ones, as they were exiled for denying help to the elvhen people by doing rituals to acquire a spirit form.

We do know stuff about the Forgotten Ones. In DAO there is a codex that reveals the names of three of the Forgotten Ones. The important one of the three is Geldauran. However it should be noted that we have also known the names of the four Forbidden Ones in DAO, and none of them match the names of the Forgotten Ones.

Now fast forward to JoH. In JoH there is a codex entry in the shard door called Geldauran's Claim that was written in Elvish but magically translates for you. The gist of it is that Geldauran doesn't believe that the Evanuris are Gods and is going to find his own path to power while becoming Forgotten.

To address your points, that codex entry at the end of the Enigma of Kirkwall chain is not a definite statement. The writer clearly has no idea what he is facing. He doesn't even know whether Xeb is a demon or not. Heck he doesn't even know that he is facing Xeb (actually I don't even think Hawke knows that what he killed was Xeb and not a generic Pride Demon). All the writer knows is that it has to be destroyed.

And the codex in Tresspasser states that Xeb and friends are the Forbidden Ones because they are forbidden from the Earth. There is no mention of the Forgotten Ones in Tresspasser to the best of my knowledge.

[LUIGI9393]

We do know stuff about the Forgotten Ones. 

 

In DAO there is a codex that reveals the names of three of the Forgotten Ones. The important one of the three is Geldauran. However it should be noted that we have also known the names of the four Forbidden Ones in DAO, and none of them match the names of the Forgotten Ones.

Now fast forward to JoH. In JoH there is a codex entry in the shard door called Geldauran's Claim that was written in Elvish but magically translates for you. The gist of it is that Geldauran doesn't believe that the Evanuris are Gods and is going to find his own path to power while becoming Forgotten.

To address your points, that codex entry at the end of the Enigma of Kirkwall chain is not a definite statement. The writer clearly has no idea what he is facing. He doesn't even know whether Xeb is a demon or not. Heck he doesn't even know that he is facing Xeb (actually I don't even think Hawke knows that what he killed was Xeb and not a generic Pride Demon). All the writer knows is that it has to be destroyed.

And the codex in Tresspasser states that Xeb and friends are the Forbidden Ones because they are forbidden from the Earth. There is no mention of the Forgotten Ones in Tresspasser to the best of my knowledge.

If we must say the truth then no, we know practically nothing of the Forgotten ones.


Tha same codex entry that introduce their names says also that

 

 

 

The legend says that before the fall of Arlathan, the gods we know and revere fought an endless war with others of their kind. There is not a hahren among us who remembers these others: Only in dreams do we hear whispered the names of Geldauran and Daern'thal and Anaris, for they are the Forgotten Ones, the gods of terror and malice, spite and pestilence. In ancient times, only Fen'Harel could walk without fear among both our gods and the Forgotten Ones, for although he is kin to the gods of the People, the Forgotten Ones knew of his cunning ways, and saw him as one of their own.

 

 

 

So no one, not even the dalish, knows anything about them, even the names are not a sure thing.


In second place Dalish lore is unreliable at best, just look at the whole Fen Harel and Evanuris thing: Dalish know nothing but fragments about their past.


In Third Place even the bit they know could be wrong : Solas name is truly Solas, but Dalish lore doesn't report this, he is always reported as Fen Harel, and that is wrong too, because since Dalish have forgotten their language and do not know the written elvish their knowledge is even more crippled and the whole "trickster god" name comes from an error of traduction from Ancient Elvish.

 

 

The Dalish use "harellan" to mean "traitor to one's kin," but the word does not appear in any elven text before the Towers Age. The ancient root-word is related to "harillen," or opposition, and "hellathen," or noble struggle. The Dalish call Fen'Harel a god of deception, but I posit a far more accurate translation would be "god of rebellion."

What he rebelled against is a story lost to time. In Dalish legends, Fen'Harel seals away the other deities out of love of trickery. If we understood more ancient elven, we might find earlier versions of the Dread Wolf's story give him a more nuanced motivation beyond spite.

—From A Treaty on the Pagan and Heretical Customs of the Elven, by Senallen Tavernier of the University of Orlais, commissioned by Empress Celene.

So the fact that the names are different really doesn't mean anything.

 

 

As for the Band of Three codex: their impression that the Forgotten ones and the Forbidden ones are the same is shared by the Seekers of Truth, and they knew what they were facing.


World of thedas, vol 2 page 165

From a letter from Seeker Cahain to Lord Sheeker Edain.

 

And so I sent the Band there to investigate. They were bound with holy vows to uncover what lore they could, to trace the roots, and return that lore to us. In their search- why there are so many blood mages in Kirkwall, the nature of the Veil there, whether the Forgotten Ones in Elven lore are connected to the Forbidden Ones in other works- i Hoped to find the answers we need

 

So the Band of three knew what they were facing, they knew about Forgotten One and Forbidden ones, and in their mandate was precisely ordered that they had to uncover a possible link between the two groups of entities.
Besides the members of the band of three were all seekers with great arcane knowledge (one of them was even a Dalish Mage)

 

 

In the back alleys of Lowtown you can find extraordinary things. Priceless tomes of knowledge can be bought with a handful of gold: The Chant of Archon Lovais, a whole chapter of the Midnight Compendium. Some of these books were thought lost forever!

And these are no forgeries. I've verified their authenticity myself. The fences have no inkling that what they're selling has value. Where did these books come from?

 

And they knew for sure the Fell Grimore, 

 

A recent trove was uncovered. This one was big, perhaps the archon's visitation chambers.

And a flood of tomes is on the market. Even the simple fences know something is amiss—they've raised their prices at the frenzy of collectors. One said he sold a copy of the Fell Grimoire! I doubt he would lie; how could he know that tome is a mere legend?

If that is real, then what of the Forgotten Ones? This journey has taken us to many strange places, and made us re-evaluate many former truths. Where will it end?

And no, Geldauran doesn't say that he "is going to find his own path to power while becoming Forgotten"

He says that he IS forgotten.


 

 

 

 am Geldauran, and I refuse those who would exert will upon me. Let Andruil's bow crack, let June's fire grow cold. Let them build temples and lure the faithful with promises. Their pride will consume them, and I, forgotten, will claim power of my own, apart from them until I strike in mastery.

[In Exile]

Presumably the "Forgotten" ones were quite literally forgotten - heroes of the same magnitude as the other members of the Evanuris, but who didn't receive the praise and glory of their peers, and grew bitter over it. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I kind of got the sense that the codex entry by Geldauran saying that he (?) was "forgotten" was just so the players definitely would get it, because the Dalish only seem to call the the Forgotten Ones because they know so little about them.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

Solas trapped the Elven Gods by creating the Veil, and the Old Gods are trapped within the Earth in the real world, so I don´t believe they are the same at all.

 

What if... the souls/spirits of the elven gods are indeed trapped in the fade as you say but the Archdemons underground are their physical bodies? What better way to imprison someone than to seperate their mind from the body and place one in each world? 

[LUIGI9393]

What if... the souls/spirits of the elven gods are indeed trapped in the fade as you say but the Archdemons underground are their physical bodies? What better way to imprison someone than to seperate their mind from the body and place one in each world? 

Then he should be happy that the Wardens are killing the Archdemons and plans to eliminate the last two in their sleep.
But he goes nut at the idea and despise the Wardens and their doing.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C27kAhN_G3w


And if they are really the Evanuris why should Flemeth save and preserve their souls if she hates them?

[Ranadiel Marius]

If we must say the truth then no, we know practically nothing of the Forgotten ones.


Tha same codex entry that introduce their names says also that





So no one, not even the dalish, knows anything about them, even the names are not a sure thing.


In second place Dalish lore is unreliable at best, just look at the whole Fen Harel and Evanuris thing: Dalish know nothing but fragments about their past.


In Third Place even the bit they know could be wrong : Solas name is truly Solas, but Dalish lore doesn't report this, he is always reported as Fen Harel, and that is wrong too, because since Dalish have forgotten their language and do not know the written elvish their knowledge is even more crippled and the whole "trickster god" name comes from an error of traduction from Ancient Elvish.

So the fact that the names are different really doesn't mean anything.


As for the Band of Three codex: their impression that the Forgotten ones and the Forbidden ones are the same is shared by the Seekers of Truth, and they knew what they were facing.


World of thedas, vol 2 page 165
From a letter from Seeker Cahain to Lord Sheeker Edain.



So the Band of three knew what they were facing, they knew about Forgotten One and Forbidden ones, and in their mandate was precisely ordered that they had to uncover a possible link between the two groups of entities.
Besides the members of the band of three were all seekers with great arcane knowledge (one of them was even a Dalish Mage)



And they knew for sure the Fell Grimore,
And no, Geldauran doesn't say that he "is going to find his own path to power while becoming Forgotten"

He says that he IS forgotten.

You say that the whispers that the elves hear with the Forgotten Ones names are unreliable, despite the fact that we have corroborating evidence, but then Claim that the Band of Three know what they are talking about despite the fact that they at no point Claim to have found evidence supporting their theory. I think you are trusting the wrong sources here.

The Band of Three was ordered to find a link, but they never found it. The last one was then killed by a demon that he was unable to identify. Geldauran is a Forgotten One, but is not a Forbidden One because they are two separate groups.

[robertthebard]

What if... the souls/spirits of the elven gods are indeed trapped in the fade as you say but the Archdemons underground are their physical bodies? What better way to imprison someone than to seperate their mind from the body and place one in each world?

Then the first 5 Blights and Kieran are a lie.

[SandiKay0]

I find it interesting that Solas doesn't acknowlege that he supposedly trapped two groups at the same time, just the one who killed Mythal. So did he trick them? The forbidden or the forgotten? Or were they trapped by elgernan, and the rest?

[LUIGI9393]

You say that the whispers that the elves hear with the Forgotten Ones names are unreliable, despite the fact that we have corroborating evidence, 

 

What corroborating evidence?

 

 

 

 

but then Claim that the Band of Three know what they are talking about despite the fact that they at no point Claim to have found evidence supporting their theory. I think you are trusting the wrong sources here.

 

So, they are seekers of truth with great arcane knowledge, they know about the Fell Grimoire, they know that Xebenckek is a Forbidden One, they know the names of the Forgotten ones, they have been sent there specifically to find if there is a link between them and in the end one of them calls Xebenckek a Forgotten one but they do not knew what they are talking about.

Seems strange.

 

 

 

The Band of Three was ordered to find a link, but they never found it.

That's your assumption, if we must stick to text the Seeker tought that the Demon he was facing (and he knew that it was Xebenkeck) could be a Forgotten one.

 

 

 

 The last one was then killed by a demon that he was unable to identify. 

That's untrue, he identified Xebenkeck, he knew about the Fell Grimoire, and he knew the lore about the Forbidden Ones.



Besides it is officialy stated that Link between the two groups can be found in other texts.

 

 

 

 

And so I sent the Band there to investigate. They were bound with holy vows to uncover what lore they could, to trace the roots, and return that lore to us. In their search- why there are so many blood mages in Kirkwall, the nature of the Veil there, whether the Forgotten Ones in Elven lore are connected to the Forbidden Ones in other works- i Hoped to find the answers we need

And after that is said that they found invaluable tomes about the lore they were seeking.
 

 

Alas, they died with their work incomplete. The tomes they recovered are invaluable, but not as worthy as those men lives.

 

So it's a very long shot to think that they didn't knew what they were talking about.

[Ranadiel Marius]

Alright, on my PC rather than my phone, so I guess it is time to get serious. *sigh* 

What corroborating evidence?\

Geldauran's Claim. Geldauran's Claim is a note written in ancient elvish by a being who refers to themselves as Geldauran and who opposed the Evanuris. Said being was additionally forgotten (intentionally or otherwise). This is first hand evidence that there was a being named Geldauran who fits the traditionally depiction of the Forgotten Ones as enemy of the Evanuris and who the term "Forgotten One" applies to. Thus, there was someone or something named Geldauran that could be be described as a "Forgotten One." This corroborates the traditional account of the Forgotten Ones and the account that listed Geldauran as among their members. Details may be wrong, such as the Forgotten Ones may have been the good guys (or both sides may have been evil), but that is irrelevant to the fact that we have first hand evidence that Geldauran existed, opposed the Evanuris, and was forgotten. There is no evidence that he was among the Forbidden Ones.

 

 

So, they are seekers of truth with great arcane knowledge, they know about the Fell Grimoire, they know that Xebenckek is a Forbidden One, they know the names of the Forgotten ones, they have been sent there specifically to find if there is a link between them and in the end one of them calls Xebenckek a Forgotten one but they do not knew what they are talking about.

Seems strange.

 

That one doesn't even know he is being killed by Xebenckek. He doesn't even recognize Xeb as a desire demon. Let's be clear here, the only things we know about the Band of Three are the codex entries from the Enigma of Kirkwall and the minor note in WoT2. The note in WoT2 was not written by them and has none of their findings. So all we have on their findings and what they know is what is written in the Enigma of Kirkwall. They do not mention Xeb, Gaxkang, Imshael, or the Formless One at any point in their notes. They do not mention the Forbidden Ones as a group at any point in their notes. The Forgotten Ones are mentioned at two points. The first is an open question of, could they actually exist? The second one is in reference to Xeb, but I am going to quote because the context is incredibly important.

 

The maddening thing is there is still no answer. But the Forgotten One, or demon or whatever it is, must be destroyed.

 

Did you notice? Here let me emphasize it to make it easier.

 

The maddening thing is there is still no answer. But the Forgotten One, or demon or whatever it is, must be destroyed.

"There is still no answer" and "or whatever it is." He does not know what Xeb is. He expressly is stating that he doesn't know what Xeb is, only that Xeb must be destroyed. The supposed expert on the Forbidden Ones and the Forgotten Ones DOES NOT RECOGNIZE XEB! There is nothing indicating that any of the Band of Three recognized that they were facing Xeb. There is no evidence. They do not refer to Xeb by name. I don't know how to make this any clearer. That note is written as the person fears for their life and the person has no idea of what is killing him. He doesn't say Xeb the Forgotten One, he says the Forgotten One or whatever that is. He simply does not know...and I pray repetition helped make that point.

 

 

That's your assumption, if we must stick to text the Seeker tought that the Demon he was facing (and he knew that it was Xebenkeck) could be a Forgotten one.

 

And your assumption is that he knows that he is being killed by Xeb. There is nothing that suggests that the person who wrote that note knew that. All the person knew is that it needed to be killed with fire, and it may be a demon...or something else.

 

 

That's untrue, he identified Xebenkeck, he knew about the Fell Grimoire, and he knew the lore about the Forbidden Ones.

Besides it is officialy stated that Link between the two groups can be found in other texts.

 

Where? Xeb's name does not appear anywhere in the Enigma of Kirkwall or the note about the Band of Three in the WoT2. There is nothing suggesting that the author of that last note knew that that demon was Xeb. And what other texts are you talking about? Where is it stated that these texts exist? Who wrote them? What knowledge did they have on the subject? I won't say that there is nothing suggesting that those texts exist, but I recall nothing on the topic, and without knowing details about them, it is difficult to have any sort of conversation about their validity, since the possibility exists that they were written by someone who was not familiar with the topic.

 

If you are talking about the quote from WoT2 that states "They were bound with holy vows to uncover what lore they could, to trace the roots, and return that lore to us. In their search- why there are so many blood mages in Kirkwall, the nature of the Veil there, whether the Forgotten Ones in Elven lore are connected to the Forbidden Ones in other works." You are misinterpreting the last clause. What he is writing is, they were investigating whether the Forgotten Ones in Elven Works are the same beings as the Forbidden Ones in works by the TI. He is not saying that there are works that say they are the same.

 

 

And after that is said that they found invaluable tomes about the lore they were seeking.

 

They found invaluable tomes. It does not say that the tomes were on topic for what they were necessarily searching for (after all the tomes were found in what they believe were probably the visitation chambers for the Archon or something of similar importance). Even if the tomes they found were on point, they were sent to multiple topics, and further a tome saying "hey these two groups are different" would still be an answer to their quest. They mention no discovery of anything on topic, so we have no evidence of what those tomes might have said on any of those topics (other than their discovery that people were intentionally thinning the veil at Kirkwall).

 

 

So it's a very long shot to think that they didn't knew what they were talking about.

 

Except for the fact that he expressly states that there is still no answer and he doesn't know what is killing him. >.>

[Aren]

I don't think the Old Gods are the Eluvanis we know of as the Creators of the Pantheon, but I can see them being the Forgotten Ones. The Forgotten Ones were the Elven Gods that waged war with the Creators before the Dread Wolf tricked them and sealed them deep within the earth just like he tricked and sealed the Creators into the sky.

I sincerely hope that for once the Dalish tales get it right,with this whole ancestral weapons and forgotten ones.......for all i know this can be easily a misinterpretation of the dalish,while they were just the court jesters of the creators

[Mr. Just-A-Guy]

Corypheus said that the Golden City was already black and empty when he and the other magisters got there, so if you're willing to believe him, then that rules out the idea that the Evanuris were waiting (or imprisoned) there for the magisters to let them out. I'm citing these quotes from Corypheus:
 

• “Beg that I succeed, for I have seen the throne of the gods, and it was empty.”
• "The light. We sought the golden light. You offered... the power of the gods themselves. But it was... black... corrupt. Darkness... ever since. How long?"
• "The City. It was supposed to be golden. It was supposed to be ours."

 

After reviewing the points other people have made in this thread, I've changed my mind from believing that the old gods are the Evanuris. The part that really convinces me is the actions of both Solas and Flemeth taken towards them. I wouldn't say that Solas is trying to protect the old gods from the wardens, but he really really doesn't want them to interact in an "unnatural" way (preempting a blight by trying to kill them before they've become archdemons). Flemeth, on the other hand, is explicitly trying to protect them, or at least salvage them. Both of them hate the Evanuris, so their behaviors towards the old gods are pretty different from what you'd expect them to do.

I know there are other pieces of the argument, but I put the the most weight on the actions of these three because we have seen time and again that historical records are inaccurate, whereas Corypheus, Solas/Fen'Harel, and Flemeth /Mythal were actually witnesses to these events. Granted, we don't know what assumptions they make about the things they saw, but from a story perspective, characters like this exist to clue us in on the way things really went down so I take what they say and do as such.

 

It's clear that whatever the old gods were, Mythal and Fen'Harel were both familiar with them, and since Mythal knew them, they existed before the veil was created (Mythal was killed then the veil was created). Felmeth refers to the old gods as "being[s] long thought lost" when you interact with her, Kieran, and Morrigan in the fade after What Pride Had Wrought. Mythal/Flemeth has strong desire to preserve the old magic, and she says that Mythal teamed up with her for "A reckoning that will shake the very heavens". I don't think there's any evidence to suggest how those two items should interact, but I could see them making a good case for the old gods being the Evanuris.