161 réponses à ce sujet

[Zeiseus]

I actually thought up the same theory (old gods being evanuris) after the epiologue of inquisition. Since it's revealed that flemeth is essentially mythal, or rather mythal's preserved knowledge, and she can become a dragon, i started wondering if the Old Gods were tied to the other elven gods. One reason for this is that the numbers match up, as there are seven old gods and nine evanuris (so minus solas and mythal, you got 7 evanuris to become Old Gods)

 

I don't think they've escaped the fade yet, though, might be more down the line of taking control of some earthly avatar. One conversation between cole and solas, cole says 'trapped behind mirrors' accessing some of solas's memmories, this may suggest that there are specific eluvians hidden down in the deep roads and they are what the darkspawn are hunting for, once they find one, they drag the evanuris out, corrupt it, and it becomes their old god. Since they eluvians are in some way connected to the fade, this could be possible.

 

Also, am i the only one to think Arlathan is the Black City? Or has this been stated before?

[Aeratus]

I don't think the old gods are the Evanuris.

 

One important clue is that one of Solas' dialogue lines with Cassandra is: "I believe the elven gods existed, as did the old gods of Tevinter."

 

This implies that the Evanuris and the old gods were not the same, or else he wouldn't have mentioned both using the term "as did."

 

Instead, old gods are most likely the dragon avatars of the forgotten ones.

[In Exile]

I don't think the old gods are the Evanuris.

 

One important clue is that one of Solas' dialogue lines with Cassandra is: "I believe the elven gods existed, as did the old gods of Tevinter."

 

This implies that the Evanuris and the old gods were not the same, or else he wouldn't have mentioned both using the term "as did."

 

Instead, old gods are most likely the dragon avatars of the forgotten ones.

 

It could just be Solas being a coy smartass. He does that from time to time. Like how he saw all that stuff in the Fade. 

[Zeiseus]

Another thing that potentially supports this theory are the Astrariums stating that it is likely the Imperium usurped old elvish constellations with their own versions, replacing elven god stars with those of old gods (in the codex entry for the white wolf constellation)

[In Exile]

Another thing that potentially supports this theory are the Astrariums stating that it is likely the Imperium usurped old elvish constellations with their own versions, replacing elven god stars with those of old gods (in the codex entry for the white wolf constellation)

 

Though there is another theory, based on JOH. When Solas talks about the Red Lyrium dragon, he basically calls it a cheap reproduction of something greater. We know from JOH that one can try and use spirits and "mold" them into whatever you want or believe. And we know that the form of dragons was "reserved" for the gods for the ancient elves. So what's to say the "OGs" aren't the elves attempting to re-create their gods? Throw some spirit into a dragon, create a dragon abomination, and then pray really hard at it until it embodies your vision of what, say, "Mythal" is/turns out to be. 

 

The issue with all this, of course, is that Mythal cares about the soul of an OG. It doesn't make sense she would if these were just abominations. 

[Madfox11]

There was no dragon when Hawk killed Corpheus the first time. He used the warden to transfer his soul to. I have been confused about the sudden correlation with the dragon in DAI except perhaps that it is a convenient source of taint that made Corpheus arrogant enough to face the Inquisitor without any Wardens or darkspawn nearby?

 

Another thing about the Old Gods being different from the elven gods is to take into account is that Dumat got the magisters to invade the Golden City or at least that is what the Magisters believed to be the case. If they are different, than the Golden City is definitely not the prison for the elven gods, or the Magisters were tricked into entering the Golden City by something else...

[Ieldra]

Just noticed this thread. I've made a similar hypothesis here, which includes some possible explanations for one or the other discrepancies. I think that the Veil sundered the Evanuris just like every other elf, and that they left some magical part of themselves behind in the dream-side aspect of Arlathan (which became the Golden City) while their bodies and minds were trapped in the solid world. That's why the Veil - or something like it - was necessary to entrap them. Solas could've have done this to them had they been whole. Also that's why the Old Gods wanted someone to access the Golden City - they want to reconnect with what they lost and become whole and powerful again. Why did they go silent with the First Blight though? That appears to make little sense regardless of whether they were the Evanuris or not.

[earthboyjak]

Just noticed this thread. I've made a similar hypothesis here, which includes some possible explanations for one or the other discrepancies. I think that the Veil sundered the Evanuris just like every other elf, and that they left some magical part of themselves behind in the dream-side aspect of Arlathan (which became the Golden City) while their bodies and minds were trapped in the solid world. That's why the Veil - or something like it - was necessary to entrap them. Solas could've have done this to them had they been whole. Also that's why the Old Gods wanted someone to access the Golden City - they want to reconnect with what they lost and become whole and powerful again. Why did they go silent with the First Blight though? That appears to make little sense regardless of whether they were the Evanuris or not.

Someone brought up an interesting idea that the blights are meant to weaken the veil by bringing swift death and destruction to the land on a broad scale. Death has been said many times to weaken the veil. It's not the most imaginative plan to bring down the veil, more like slamming your head against it hoping you'll hit it hard enough in the right spot, but desperation may be a motivator. I am not sure how this exactly fits in with the theories we're talking about here, but it's one I like.

 

I also think the old gods and the evanuris are at least in a way the same. If the evanuris became abominations at some point, they would have started off separate, then become the same, and then different again upon being separated by the veil. They've been worshiped separately and simultaneously by different peoples and at different periods of history, which would explain the confusion over their true identities.

 

Fusing may have been a way to reach a truce between them and end the war that seems was waged long ago. Both sides became more powerful, but the people suffered under the growing insanity of their abomination leaders. We all know separating spirits from bodies of the possessed is beyond difficult. Maybe Solas didn't mean to destroy that world when he made the veil. Maybe all he meant to do was SAVE the evanuris, and the elves, by exorcising their demons, and it blew up into something global. He probably could have killed them with his kind of power, if he really wanted to, but he didn't.

[In Exile]

There was no dragon when Hawk killed Corpheus the first time. He used the warden to transfer his soul to. I have been confused about the sudden correlation with the dragon in DAI except perhaps that it is a convenient source of taint that made Corpheus arrogant enough to face the Inquisitor without any Wardens or darkspawn nearby?

Another thing about the Old Gods being different from the elven gods is to take into account is that Dumat got the magisters to invade the Golden City or at least that is what the Magisters believed to be the case. If they are different, than the Golden City is definitely not the prison for the elven gods, or the Magisters were tricked into entering the Golden City by something else...

It's the other way around. Corypheus is "effectively" immortal because of the blight. Like the AD can body surf darkspawn, he can body surf Grey Wardens (and maybe also darkspawn). When he created the red lyrium dragon, he created a connection that somehow - if severed - would keep him from body surfing.

It's the other way around re: the dragon, basically.

[In Exile]

Just noticed this thread. I've made a similar hypothesis here, which includes some possible explanations for one or the other discrepancies. I think that the Veil sundered the Evanuris just like every other elf, and that they left some magical part of themselves behind in the dream-side aspect of Arlathan (which became the Golden City) while their bodies and minds were trapped in the solid world. That's why the Veil - or something like it - was necessary to entrap them. Solas could've have done this to them had they been whole. Also that's why the Old Gods wanted someone to access the Golden City - they want to reconnect with what they lost and become whole and powerful again. Why did they go silent with the First Blight though? That appears to make little sense regardless of whether they were the Evanuris or not.

I am partial to that theory myself, only I see the the Evanuris as being trapped someone not necessarily the Fade (Cole mentions a mirror when he reads Solas, and it sounds like that line related to the Evanuris). What I do think is that the ADs are their bodies, and that the elves tried to re-create their gods in the way the Avar did. The OGs aren't necessarily the Evanuris, but rather elven abominations made out of the abandoned and soulless bodies of the elven gods.

[Zeiseus]

Someone brought up an interesting idea that the blights are meant to weaken the veil by bringing swift death and destruction to the land on a broad scale. Death has been said many times to weaken the veil. It's not the most imaginative plan to bring down the veil, more like slamming your head against it hoping you'll hit it hard enough in the right spot, but desperation may be a motivator. I am not sure how this exactly fits in with the theories we're talking about here, but it's one I like.

 

I also think the old gods and the evanuris are at least in a way the same. If the evanuris became abominations at some point, they would have started off separate, then become the same, and then different again upon being separated by the veil. They've been worshiped separately and simultaneously by different peoples and at different periods of history, which would explain the confusion over their true identities.

 

Fusing may have been a way to reach a truce between them and end the war that seems was waged long ago. Both sides became more powerful, but the people suffered under the growing insanity of their abomination leaders. We all know separating spirits from bodies of the possessed is beyond difficult. Maybe Solas didn't mean to destroy that world when he made the veil. Maybe all he meant to do was SAVE the evanuris, and the elves, by exorcising their demons, and it blew up into something global. He probably could have killed them with his kind of power, if he really wanted to, but he didn't.

 

It's been stated that the taint originally came from the Void (the empty places in the Fade with no spirit/demon/dreamer to shape them) And that the Forgotten ones where thrown into the Void, and the Forgotten Ones were the arch-enemies to the Evanuris according to elven lore.

So I don't think they created the blight, but that it was an invention of the Forgotten Ones to destroy or corrupt the Evanuris. Which could explain why the darkspawn hunt for the Old Gods if they are, as i said above, Evanuris pulled from their prisons in the Fade through Eluvians hidden in the earth.

If the Forgotten ones made the blight specifically destroy the Evanuris, then i think it makes sense for the darkspawn to hunt them out most of all. Then the corrupted Evanuris would be driven either by their own desire to reclaim the world, or the original desire of the Forgotten Ones to do the same.

[Kendar Fleetfoot]

"Solas trapped the Elven Gods by creating the Veil, and the Old Gods are trapped within the Earth in the real world, so I don´t believe they are the same at all."

 

Did he trap them behind the veil or did he just deny them access to the Fade which denied them power? That would provide a better reason as to why Fen'Harel, Mythal and possibly Andruil are walking around with some abilities but they are not their normal all powerful selves? Is it just part of the Evanuris, the part Solas takes from Mythal that is locked inside the Archdemons, their ability/power to access the fade?

 

Do Descent and Trespasser seem to indicate to others that perhaps, the Old Gods are the Titans? 

 

The story of Elgar'rnan striking down the Sun (Solas) is a consistent fable throughout the games, is this about Elgar'nan fighting Solas whom Mythal then convinced to restore Solas to the Evanuris?

 

So many questions!!!!!

 

 

[Qun00]

So Mythal could become an Archdemon if she were infected with the Taint. Not only that, but Fen'Harel actually sealed the Evanuris underground, where darkspawn search for them.

Who knew?

[Zeiseus]

So Mythal could become an Archdemon if she were infected with the Taint. Not only that, but Fen'Harel actually sealed the Evanuris underground, where darkspawn search for them.

Who knew?

I still personally think they're in the fade, or some other pocket dimension accessed by hidden eluvians. Whether this is a true theory, no idea. But I'm pretty sure they are in the fade, regardless of subterranean eluvians. I mean, that was like the entire point of making the fade.

 

then again, there is the possibility that all he did by raising the fade was snip off the mortal evanuris from their immense power beyond the veil. There is the theory that Sera is actually Andruil, but somehow, as Solas states in a party banter instance, that she is 'apart from herself'.

So it might be that the Old Gods have nothing to do with Evanuris at all, but the Forgotten Ones. But raising the fade over the Evanuris could have sundered them from themselves like what happened to the Archivist in the Shattered Library in Trespasser.

[Madfox11]

It's the other way around. Corypheus is "effectively" immortal because of the blight. Like the AD can body surf darkspawn, he can body surf Grey Wardens (and maybe also darkspawn). When he created the red lyrium dragon, he created a connection that somehow - if severed - would keep him from body surfing.

It's the other way around re: the dragon, basically.

 

Doesn't help... just raised the question on why to create a dragon if it makes you mortal. Mind you, in the end you don't appear to kill Corypheus anyway, but you seem to banish him to the Fade.

[In Exile]

Just noticed this thread. I've made a similar hypothesis here, which includes some possible explanations for one or the other discrepancies. I think that the Veil sundered the Evanuris just like every other elf, and that they left some magical part of themselves behind in the dream-side aspect of Arlathan (which became the Golden City) while their bodies and minds were trapped in the solid world. That's why the Veil - or something like it - was necessary to entrap them. Solas could've have done this to them had they been whole. Also that's why the Old Gods wanted someone to access the Golden City - they want to reconnect with what they lost and become whole and powerful again. Why did they go silent with the First Blight though? That appears to make little sense regardless of whether they were the Evanuris or not.

I agree that the separation was essential, but I think it's the reverse - this is a case of "gone horridly right". Solas didn't want to sunder all elves from their nature - he wanted to sunder the Evanuris from their nature. But it went wrong. And the world changed. 

[In Exile]

Doesn't help... just raised the question on why to create a dragon if it makes you mortal. Mind you, in the end you don't appear to kill Corypheus anyway, but you seem to banish him to the Fade.

 

Because he's a megalomaniac idiot. If there's anything Corypheus established, it's that his plans are stupid and power by megalomania (cf. the original breach into the Fade that kicked off the modern blights). 

[Zeiseus]

Doesn't help... just raised the question on why to create a dragon if it makes you mortal. Mind you, in the end you don't appear to kill Corypheus anyway, but you seem to banish him to the Fade.

 

I took it not so much banishment, as opening a fade rift inside of Cory and letting it tear him apart molecule by molecule. Considering he DID want into the fade in the first place in order to achieve godlike power, i don't feel the inquisitor was just like 'oops, here ya go, milordship'

[Qun00]

Which blighted Elven god did the Hero of Ferelden kill?

[Aren]

Honestly i do not know as for why Mythal wanted to save one of them if he was one of her murderers,since if we assume that the old gods bodies are the physical aspect of the Evanuris i don't understand as for why Mythal wanted to save one of them from a grey warden punishment unless she plan to make Urthemiel suffer even more......

Solas said that he had plans to deal with the Evanuris so i have to assume that if this theory will proved to be right he was reasonable in his statement since he cannot fear those who are dead by the hands of the Wardens..

Yet i still don't understa nd as for why Mythal saved one of her killers....and mind that not all the Evanuris were linked to dragons...

[sniper_arrow]

 

Honestly i do not know as for why Mythal wanted to save one of them if he was one of her murderers,since if we assume that the old gods bodies are the physical aspect of the Evanuris i don't understand as for why Mythal wanted to save one of them from a grey warden punishment unless she plan to make Urthemiel suffer even more......

Solas said that he had plans to deal with the Evanuris so i have to assume that if this theory will proved to be right he was reasonable in his statement since he cannot fear those who are dead by the hands of the Wardens..

Yet i still don't understa nd as for why Mythal saved one of her killers....and mind that not all the Evanuris were linked to dragons...

 

 

I understand that there was another theory floating around that the essence of the Old God is actually Mythal's essence. The theory goes (I can't remember the exact details) that when Mythal was murdered, the Evanuris decided to split her essence/soul/spirit(?) and placed them separately into her dragons. 

 

I recently did another DA2 playthrough and, during the Sundermount scene with Merrill, Flemeth said that she didn't want to be followed. Who would be following her? I doubt it was either Morrigan or HoF. Perhaps it was someone Mythal knew?

[Medhia_Nox]

I believe that both the Old Gods and the Evanuris are spirits who did with elves and dragons what Cole did with a human.  

 

I think they're both separate and that the Evanuris imprisioned the Old Gods beneath the earth before they accidentally made the darkspawn.  

[BonerStorm]

I just spent hours devouring every scrap of info on the wiki I could find to figure all this stuff out. I have some nuances to add to the picture, which I'll explain in detail next post.

 

Because I'm lazy, here's a FB message conversation with my best friend about it:

 

 

Holy **** the Dragon Age universe is finally making sense

Humans showed up about 1500 years before the first blight. About 300 years later, they learn blood magic from the Old Gods.

 

Yup

 

800 years before the Blight they found the Tevinter Imperium. 600 years before they destroy Arlathan.

Now because of Trespasser, we know that the elves drove the dwarves underground sometime after making contact with them 1500 years before humans showed up. There are references to fighting dwarves + titans

Which means the dwarven-tevinter alliance makes a bunch more sense.

So what most likely happened:

Sometime around the time humans showed up, Solas popped up the veil, which banished the elven pantheon of 7 deities (8 minus Mythal).

All of a sudden, the vints get 7 new gods with similar portfolios

9 Elf gods including Solas and 7 Old Gods. We know that the elven gods killed Mythal.

Also there are hints that the Old Gods were contacting the vints FROM the Golden City... the same one which the elves believe Solas trapped the 7 remaining elven gods in.

 

Oh ****

Wow if they planned that...

 

Yeah I think they did. I'm really glad the fuckers had an outline.

So the Old Gods get to telling the dumb humans that totally awesome **** will happen if they use crazy blood magic to bust into the Golden City.

It's unclear what happened to create the darkspawn after that, but it probably involved red lyrium and the Old God Dumat (probably aka Dirthamen - keeper of secrets)

Red lyrium is apparently from the "void." Corypheus said that they didn't create the taint; they just found and mastered it.

And apparently Andruil was infected with something when she went hunting in "the void"

But yeah it sounds like these elf gods are all "abominations"

I'm guessing Urthemiel "The Architect" is June "The Crafter."

Wacky irony time: if this is true then Urthemiel is legit Flemeth's son

[BonerStorm]

OK here's another lazy post. It's just a list of the gods that I think line up (only slam dunks are Dirthamen and Lusacan tho). Next to each are the respective sexes & portfolios (also a couple notes).

 

!Dirthamen – Dumat M/M Secrets/Secrets (basically the SAME deity)

Zazikel – Andruil M/F Freedom/Hunting (yeah this is a weak connection)

Toth – Elgar’Nan M/M Fire/Sun (El’s described as destroying enemies with fire/lighting/light – a figure of rage)

Andoral – Ghilan’nain M/F Slavery/Monster-Creation  -

Urthemiel – June M/M “Architect of the Works of Beauty”/”God of the Craft”

Razikale – Syliase F/F Mystery/Magic

!Lusacan – Falon’din M/M Night/Death (note link in Owl Constellation codex)

 

I'm guessing these were all spirits who were bonded to the bodies of either elven mages or high dragons. I'll elaborate later but... it'd explain how they were described both as like a "demon" or "spirit" because they can swap back and forth like all spirits.

 

I’m guessing Mythal was originally a spirit of wisdom (opposite being pride), which explains why the quest for her temple is called “What Pride Had Wrought.”

[earthboyjak]

Yet Solas seems very certain that the Evanuris and the old gods are entirely separate and unrelated entities. I just started a new playthrough, and back in Haven in one of your investigating discussions with him he says this very plainly, something along the lines of, "The Evanuris had nothing to do with the old god dragons worshipped in the Imperium." I wish I could find video somewhere of it. But he is genuinely offended by the suggestion that the two have anything to do with one another. While we know Solas is not infallible, I tend to take such strong proclamations from him seriously.