161 réponses à ce sujet

[BonerStorm]

Responses to counterpoints:

 

Why are Flemeth and Solas so chill with the Old Ones if they're the elven deities who betrayed them?

Of the 7 imprisoned elven gods, lore says that 1 of them is Flemeth's husband and 4-5 of them are her children (the one who might not would otherwise be her son-in-law). For what they did or were complicit in, she's extremely liable to drop serious hurt on them.

 

That said... if they're just extremely powerful spirits or something else that can body-surf, simply killing them would mean they'd eventually be able to regenerate into better versions of themselves (like Solas' friend the wisdom spirit who was corrupted into a pride demon). For instance, over millenia Elgarnan could have switched back and forth between being a spirit of Justice and Vengeance a dozens or hundreds of times (see Anders).

 

Think about it: if you were an immortal being with god-like powers and infinite time to regret it: would you not only kill your entire family but utterly destroy their souls forever in the process? If Solas and Flemeth are immortal spirits, then the idea of destroying one of their own would be regrettable but completely annihilating their very essence would be unthinkable.

 

The Old Gods are obviously the Forgotten Ones because they're underground (and they're NOT the Forbidden Ones)

Actually the Forgotten ones were trapped in the Abyss, which is heavily intimated to be the Void and NOT underground. It's totally plausible, but at this point the lore is pointing against it and I think the balance of evidence points towards the elven deities. Funny thing: lets say there are 7 dark elven deities opposed to the 7 good ones (even though there are 9 elven deities), why would they be separate spirits and not differing aspects of the same spirit? There's nothing to indicate at this point that the elven gods are any way a natural force counterbalanced by opposites and lots of indications against it.

 

Also: yes, the Forbidden Ones are definitely Forgotten Ones (though maybe not vice versa) ; the Shattered Library Codex entitled "Exile of the Forbidden Ones" states pretty clearly that Xebenkeck is one and in Geldauran's Claim he identifies himself as "forgotten". Also yeah that scholar didn't recognize Xeb... BUT XEB IS AN ANCIENT IMMORTAL SHAPESHIFTER.

 

Also the big war they're talking about wasn't with dragons or Forgotten/Forbidden ones. It was with the titans/dwarves. As established in the codex linked below, the Forbidden Ones were banished to the Abyss/Void because they deserted to the Fade rather than fight the titans. It's pretty clear the Abyss does not refer to "underground".

 

If you had just fought a war with titans/dwarves and wanted to punish a bunch of war deserters forever... why would you bury them UNDERGROUND where the enemy is? Besides, the codex intro text also clearly describes a banishing "from the reaches of the Fade" and that they're specifically "forbidden from the Earth." Finally, there's nothing in the library codices about the Forgotten ones despite their being a very significant part of their history, strongly indicating Forbidden = Forgotten.

 

http://dragonage.wik..._Forbidden_Ones

 

Speaking of... what is the deal with the Dwarves?

Aside from the Maker, there are six named groups of god-like entities and five of them are imprisoned: the Titans, the Evanuris, the Old Ones, the Forbidden Ones, The Forgotten Ones and the Avvar pantheon. The Avvar gods seem to be the weakest of the bunch regardless, the Titans are in a league of their own and the rest are likely spirits/spirit-based. I'm betting Evanuris = Old Ones and Forbidden = Forgotten.

 

It's funny... DAI's DLC totally inverted the standard trope of hippie in-touch-with-mother-nature elves and douchey steampunk dwarves. They may act that way now after the Veil totally destroyed their old way of life, but apparently the dwarves are directly related to entities who literally shape the world and whose blood is the prime source of magic.

 

The elves, on the other hand, either worshiped spirits, mortals or abominations masquerading as gods (just as the Chantry said!). Their most significant contribution to history as a people other than the Veil was going to war with the very Earth. I'm guessing that, in the heat of war, they bound spirits of wisdom etc to guide their leaders and, over the centuries, the adulation of the masses turned them to pride etc. That said, maybe the difference between the two is a really slim one: Solas seems a perfect example of someone very wise who is making incredibly unwise decisions through arrogance.

 

The Old Gods aren't trapped in the Fade because they're trapped underground

As other people have pointed out, the body and the soul can be separate here. As Flemeth/Mythal proved, you apparently don't even need the whole shebang but just a piece. An old tidbit of wisdom from D&D is that the best counter for someone using Astral Projection is Flesh to Stone, because it traps their astral body in place forever while killing them would release them back to their real body.

 

Same thing here: if the elven gods are either possessing spirits or elven mages who are bonded with spirits, there'd be no better way to nerf them than to lock their souls in the fade and comatose bodies on earth. By the way, the most popular place for a high-level mage to put their physical body is somewhere extremely remote which nobody knows about... but that also means your followers could literally spend centuries looking if they have to find you for some reason. Bonus points if your entire transportation network depends on magic and one day it just stops working (RE: Cole's "Trapped behind mirrors").

 

Why would the elven gods pretend to be human gods?

Here's a better question: if the Old Ones were trapped underground or weren't trapped at all, why the hell would they be pushing the magisters so hard to pop the cork on the Golden City? What would they possibly have to gain?

 

Quotes from the Black City wiki article with references to "The World of Thedas:"

Some accounts suggest that the Old Gods began whispering to humanity from the Golden City in -2800 Ancient, three hundred years after the arrival of humans in Thedas... Elves believe that their gods have been trapped in the Eternal City at the heart of the Beyond"

 

Here's another quote from the RPG on the Wiki for the First Blight:

"if the Chantry's history and Orzammar's Memories are both true, then Tevinter mages would have entered the Fade, been cursed, fled, found Dumat, raised an army, and then overrun the western thaigs all in one year. It seems more likely that the magisters had already been seeking Dumat for some time. A few Grey Warden scholars believe they may have even found him by that time, and that it was he who helped them to reach the Golden City."

 

This latter piece indicates that Dumat's physical form was already trapped underground BEFORE the city was breached. That's also supported by the fact that Corypheus basically confirms that he's only spoken to Dumat in his dreams.

 

It makes the most sense that the Old Gods were pushing for breaching the City because THEY were trapped there and, according to the elves, that's where the elven gods are trapped.

 

Mythal's the only elven god who's depicted as a dragon

It's clear from the library codices that both the elven gods AND the forgotten ones were shapeshifters. Hell, there's even one plain regular guy who got judged by Elgarnan because he shapeshifted into a dragon. Likely these are all elven mages. Maybe the animals they're associated with are the base forms of the spirits the original elven mages melded with. Either way it's easy to handwave.

 

 

Ok so where does the Blight & Red Lyrium come into this?

Beats the hell out of me. I've got a guess, though:

Kirkwall was the center of the Tevinter slave trade and they were literally sacrificing thousands of slaves per year in a city built to maximize the potential of magical energy so they could breach the Veil... and it didn't work. At least not well enough for them to waltz into the Golden City.

 

If the blood mages couldn't punch a solid hole into the regular Fade with that kind of investment... how could they breach the Golden City where not even spirits could go?

 

Red ****** Lyrium. It's like regular lyrium, but is much more powerful/plentiful and is much better at punching through the Veil. Maybe they got advice from the Forbidden/Forgotten Ones (who'd been hanging out in the Void which apparently is anti-life Red Lyrium-ville), then gathered a ton of the stuff and probably started going cuckoo for cocoa puffs right then. Remember that Corypheus said that they didn't make the red lyrium but just found and "mastered" it (just like a junkie "masters" meth I wager).

 

When they blasted through to the Golden City, the souls of the elven gods were released into their corporeal forms, but the use of the red lyrium screwed everything up in any number of ways, the upshot being that Dumat got infested with the Taint and the other gods were stuck dead asleep (with the added penalty of not being able to whisper for help through the Fade anymore).

 

Here's a funny thought: if the Blight/Red-Lyrium is an anti-life/anti-magic plague and it's somehow held at bay by titans or whatever... and the titans were weakened by the raising of the Veil... it's possible that the only sure way to eradicate it entirely is for Solas to go through with his plan of bringing down the Veil and "destroying" the world. It's possible that killing the next two AD's won't end the Blight because they're a symptom and not a cause of it (hence his admonishment to the GW's).

[BonerStorm]

Yet Solas seems very certain that the Evanuris and the old gods are entirely separate and unrelated entities. I just started a new playthrough, and back in Haven in one of your investigating discussions with him he says this very plainly, something along the lines of, "The Evanuris had nothing to do with the old god dragons worshipped in the Imperium." I wish I could find video somewhere of it. But he is genuinely offended by the suggestion that the two have anything to do with one another. While we know Solas is not infallible, I tend to take such strong proclamations from him seriously.

 

Huh... if you could find a note that'd be really great because it'd put a nail in this whole discussion. This is the only time he mentions gods as listed on the wiki:
 

 

Solas: I know. I believe the elven gods existed, as did the old gods of Tevinter. But I do not think any of them were gods, unless you expand the definition of the word to the point of absurdity. I appreciate the idea of your Maker, a god that does not need to prove his power. I wish more such gods felt the same.

[BonerStorm]

Ugh and I realized the dialogue pages don't show interactive conversations. I'm trying to find it in youtube full cutscene clips... skipped through about an hour's worth so far, well past Haven and haven't found anything.

 

You sure it was Solas? Sounds like something Merrill would say more than he would.

[Karmel]

If we ask Solas about Corypheus' dragon, the answer is:

Solas: "(...) Nothing in any lore connects my people to the Old God dragons who became Archdemons."

Is it about this line?

 

[earthboyjak]

If we ask Solas about Corypheus' dragon, the answer is:
Solas: "(...) Nothing in any lore connects my people to the Old God dragons who became Archdemons."
Is it about this line?

YES! That's the conversation. He had another point or two that made it more clear. Maybe that was more like at the beginning of Skyhold? I might have gotten confused. It must be right after In Your Heart Shall Burn. I might have a save file left where I can hear it again.

[earthboyjak]

Damn, it's gone. I'd have to go back a couple hours to finish the attack on Haven and reach Skyhold again. Maybe I'll do it later. For me, if Solas says the Old Gods/Arch Demons have nothing to do with the elves, I'm inclined to believe him.

[Qun00]

If Flemeth were infected with the Taint would she become an archdemon?

[BonerStorm]

If we ask Solas about Corypheus' dragon, the answer is:

Solas: "(...) Nothing in any lore connects my people to the Old God dragons who became Archdemons."

Is it about this line?

 

 

Got it! 10:22 with subtitles here:

 

1:10 here:

 

Yeah this is a solid counterpoint against it. Then again: Solas is fond of prevarication and, as the army was leaving Haven, he remarked specifically about his fears that humans would take it out on the elves if they found out the orb was elven.

 

Imagine if they knew the archdemons and the even the blight itself were brought by elven gods... It'd be understandable for him to lie to cover that up. In a lot of fantasy fiction Elves are a stand-in for Jews... imagine if medieval Christians not only believed Jews killed Christ but that they also, say, came to believe they caused the Black Death using dark magic. Mythal and Solas claim to know everything about the Taint/Blight/RedLyrium (which indicates they were around for its introduction long before the First Blight), but they'd probably be cagey about it to avoid sparking genocide if they knew elves were ultimately responsible.

 

Regardless, it still doesn't answer the question of why the Old Gods wanted into the Golden City in the first place. The lore points to BOTH the Old Gods and the Evanuris being trapped there... and the only beings in the history of Thedas who claimed you could gain godhood by entering it were the Old Gods, who were obviously lying/mistaken on several levels. Why the hell would they say that? If they believed it, why would they want their priests to do it and not themselves?

 

Who thinks that by entering the home of the Creator, you become a Creator? If I break into Tom Cruise's house... I don't reasonably expect to become Tom Cruise. Maybe I can steal his stuff and watch his TV, but Tom Cruise is Tom Cruise because he's Tom Cruise. It seems more likely the Old Gods wanted to breach the Golden City to get something OUT rather than get their feckless priests in and that they had no clue they'd be tainted by darkspawn.

[BonerStorm]

If Flemeth were infected with the Taint would she become an archdemon?

That would explain why she never fights the Blight directly. She can be killed but revived/regenerated, but if she gets tainted she's likely tainted forever and starts a double-AD apocalypse.

[cindercatz]

That is why it is a theory. And come on, a solid one really! And for all I have been taught in the saga, the old gods were indeed trapped in the fade, but if not, then again, may be a part of the history that has been lost. And I climb to my (proofless) theory that the magisters locked them into the Deep roads after the elven gods infected them with the blight, wich might be something like biological magic... who knows, if they were believed gods in a time where magic was "as natural as breathing" they could very much make blights...

 

Also, I read at Kotaku, and then at IGN, that if you play the whispers of the well of sorrows backwards, you can almost perfectly listen "MITHAAL COMMANDS THE CALLING" wich MIGHT be the blight calling.

Either way, love the thread, and this is a really interesting part of the whole Dragon Age thing. I'm sure they'll further it along those lines next game, too. Welcome to the forums. :-) (All you new people here, welcome welcome)

[BonerStorm]

Damn, it's gone. I'd have to go back a couple hours to finish the attack on Haven and reach Skyhold again. Maybe I'll do it later. For me, if Solas says the Old Gods/Arch Demons have nothing to do with the elves, I'm inclined to believe him.

 

Regardless, after listening to the conversation again... it sounds less like he's insulted by an implication and more like the elfy doth protest too much.

 

The Inquisitor asks a very general question "Like the power to control the ArchDemon?"

 

And Solas responds very specifically "Indirectly, one assumes... blah blah blah."

 

At this point the Inquisitor has absolutely ZERO reason to suspect that there's a special connection between elf magic and AD's but Solas jumps there unprompted. Most people were probably thinking "Wow that orb must have amplified his blighty blight powers" and not "Wow I wonder if the Blight is an ancient secret tin foil elf conspiracy?"

 

AND he only talks about it in the third person with prevarications. HE does not assume; ONE assumes. HE may be aware; but there's nothing IN THE LORE. Note that at the beginning of the conversation, he also says "I claim no secret wisdom" which is obviously BS at this point, but it's technically true because he doesn't CLAIM it even if he naturally HAS it.

[sniper_arrow]

Responses to counterpoints:

 

Why are Flemeth and Solas so chill with the Old Ones if they're the elven deities who betrayed them?

Of the 7 imprisoned elven gods, lore says that 1 of them is Flemeth's husband and 4-5 of them are her children (the one who might not would otherwise be her son-in-law). For what they did or were complicit in, she's extremely liable to drop serious hurt on them.

 

That said... if they're just extremely powerful spirits or something else that can body-surf, simply killing them would mean they'd eventually be able to regenerate into better versions of themselves (like Solas' friend the wisdom spirit who was corrupted into a pride demon). For instance, over millenia Elgarnan could have switched back and forth between being a spirit of Justice and Vengeance a dozens or hundreds of times (see Anders).

 

Think about it: if you were an immortal being with god-like powers and infinite time to regret it: would you not only kill your entire family but utterly destroy their souls forever in the process? If Solas and Flemeth are immortal spirits, then the idea of destroying one of their own would be regrettable but completely annihilating their very essence would be unthinkable.

 

Just a thought: I don't think Mythal wants to kill them (as you have mentioned in your post), but simply confront or beat the crap out of them in their weakened states. 

 

Also, when Flemeth was in Sundermount in DA2, she mentioned that she didn't want to be followed. Who would try to follow her? I doubt it was Morrigan or the Warden. And where did she go after she left until DAI?

[BonerStorm]

Just a thought: I don't think Mythal wants to kill them (as you have mentioned in your post), but simply confront or beat the crap out of them in their weakened states. 

 

Also, when Flemeth was in Sundermount in DA2, she mentioned that she didn't want to be followed. Who would try to follow her? I doubt it was Morrigan or the Warden. And where did she go after she left until DAI?

 

It's also possible that they are fractured entities with multiple incarnations and she wants to save the purified bits in the AD's but wipe out the tainted chunks somewhere else.

[robertthebard]

Yeah this is a solid counterpoint against it. Then again: Solas is fond of prevarication and, as the army was leaving Haven, he remarked specifically about his fears that humans would take it out on the elves if they found out the orb was elven.
 
Imagine if they knew the archdemons and the even the blight itself were brought by elven gods... It'd be understandable for him to lie to cover that up. In a lot of fantasy fiction Elves are a stand-in for Jews... imagine if medieval Christians not only believed Jews killed Christ but that they also, say, came to believe they caused the Black Death using dark magic. Mythal and Solas claim to know everything about the Taint/Blight/RedLyrium (which indicates they were around for its introduction long before the First Blight), but they'd probably be cagey about it to avoid sparking genocide if they knew elves were ultimately responsible.

...or, as the story would suggest, people might take it out on the elves because an elven artifact was used to kill the Divine? Maybe? There just may be a bit of animosity there, don't you think? Need a clue that this might be possible? Do you think Dorian was there when Andraste was burned? Not likely, eh? Yet, he, and all of Tevinter, is hated first and foremost for that.

It's really easy to twist lines and motivations when one desperately wants something to be true. It's harder to step back and say "you know, maybe not", because as you postulated, you've spent a lot of time trying to prove it's true. Every piece of evidence you gather is tainted from that premise. This isn't any different than the Arlathan debate; to read this thread, the only possible gods are the elven gods, which have been proven to not even be gods, just as, if we're to buy the Golden City is Arlathan, Arlathan was the only city the elves ever had, which is shown to not be the case in the scene with Morrigan in the Crossroads.

[rapscallioness]

 

*snip*

 

Regardless, it still doesn't answer the question of why the Old Gods wanted into the Golden City in the first place. The lore points to BOTH the Old Gods and the Evanuris being trapped there... and the only beings in the history of Thedas who claimed you could gain godhood by entering it were the Old Gods, who were obviously lying/mistaken on several levels. Why the hell would they say that? If they believed it, why would they want their priests to do it and not themselves?

 

Who thinks that by entering the home of the Creator, you become a Creator? If I break into Tom Cruise's house... I don't reasonably expect to become Tom Cruise. Maybe I can steal his stuff and watch his TV, but Tom Cruise is Tom Cruise because he's Tom Cruise. It seems more likely the Old Gods wanted to breach the Golden City to get something OUT rather than get their feckless priests in and that they had no clue they'd be tainted by darkspawn.

 

It could be they were simply trying to get out of their prison as you point out. However, it could also be that they did not lie about attaining "godhood" by entering the city. It goes to what exactly is a god and what is the definition of godhood.

 

Corypheus did become very powerful and immortal. Granted, he did not read the fine print about you will become a darkspawn lord in the process, but there it is. It worked. Maybe these other beings, whoever they are, viewed the taint, blight, darkspawn as a small price to pay for such power and immortality.

 

They could think the use of red lyrium is acceptable because of the power it gives them.

[sniper_arrow]

It's also possible that they are fractured entities with multiple incarnations and she wants to save the purified bits in the AD's but wipe out the tainted chunks somewhere else.

 

There was another theory floating in Reddit that the essences of the Old Gods happened to be Mythal's and not the Evanuris's. I can't seem to recall the exact details, but the theory goes that after Mythal was murdered, the Evanuris decided to split her essence into several parts and lock them to what we now call them Archdemons.

 

That may be the reason why Solas objected into killing the Archdemons (it would essentially destroy a part of Mythal) and Flemeth managed to obtain the OG soul from Kieran easily.

[Anvos]

I think people put too much emphasis on the Chantry's belief that the Old Gods were imprisioned as Tevintar lore recounts one of the Old Gods destroying one of the enemies of Minrathous before the blights and in a memory in the Nightmare's realm the person recognizes Dumat as the blighted high dragon meaning people had seen the Old God Ancient high dragons before the blight.  Makes just as much sense that the reason they went silent is that they chose to break contact and retreat to ancient lairs to sleep away the ages until the blight was no more after the High Dragon Priests accidentally taint Dumat, not realizing the nature of the Blight and that they'd accidentally call to the darkspawn in their sleep.

 

As for the thread's theory there is a bit of a major timeline error here for them to be the same as ancient elves aging started around a similar enough time to the development of human society on main land Thedas that they mistake correlation for causation.  This presents a problem for this theory since the Old Gods are supposed to have first came to the ancestors of Tevintar before the human exodus from Par Vollen and they are the ones who led them to Minrathous.

 

Also there is a major problem that if they were the Evanuris the Old Gods wouldn't have sought to have Tevintar eradicate the weakened ancient elven empire since the secrets of the ancient elves would have helped them learn to destroy the veil. 

 

Mind you however I do think its highly possible that the Old God Ancient High Dragons used their strong fade power to consume the Evanuris as they were weakened confused and possibly turning on each other when the veil went up.  This would explain why Solas doesn't think the Evanuris would pose a threat (especially when one of memories in the library implies they already defeated him once) if the only way for their essence to return required the soul of an Old God being put into a new body.

[Dragoni89]

The Elven Gods, The Forgotten Ones and The Old Gods are the same thing.

 

It is quite clear. There are Seven Elven Gods trapped in the Fade by Solas, The Dread Wolf. Mythal was murdered by the Seven. There are a total of seven old gods, who were worshipped by Tevintar. The Tevintar Imperial is entirely build upon elven culture. Mages who hear whispers from the Fade of the Old Gods. It is quite clear that the elven gods are affecting the tevintar mages from the Fade. Tevintar originally had a maker under a different name, the old gods came later. The Old Gods taught the Tevintar magister magic, as Elven Gods are just really powerful mages.

 

Solas in history as the dreadwolf is considered a forgotten one and elven god. Apparently there was a war at the time between the elven gods and the forgotten ones. But there was no war other a civil one between the elven gods. The Forgotten Ones are just an excused used by Elven Culture to not name their Gods as being evil in nature. It is stated the dread wolf sealed the forgotten ones. Elven Gods are the Forgotten Ones.

 

Seven becomes a quite a significant number in dragon age. Seven Elven Gods who are Exiled To the Fade, Seven Old Gods, Seven Tevintar Magsiters who learned blood magic and entered the Fade. In dragon age inquisition, Corypheus when he first makes an appearance with the inquisitor he states the Golden City was already Corrupted before they arrived. This could actually be true, it could be the Seven Elven Gods who first enter the golden city and turn it black. Seven Tevintar Mages and Seven Elven gods is no coincidence.

 

Solas not admitting the old gods and elven gods are related, just his way of protecting the Elven people who would be annihilated by the world if a connection is formed.

[Ranadiel Marius]

The Forgotten Ones are just an excused used by Elven Culture to not name their Gods as being evil in nature. It is stated the dread wolf sealed the forgotten ones. Elven Gods are the Forgotten Ones.

That does not fit considering we know the names of two or three Forgotten Ones. None of them match the names of the Evanuris. Further, in JoH, we encounter ancient writings by Geldauran (one of the Forgotten Ones) talking about how the Evanuris are not Gods and how he will strike at them eventually.

[BroBear Berbil]

We don't know a whole lot about the Forgotten Ones or the Old Gods, so having them be one and the same is certainly plausible.

 

Also, lore has said from the very beginning that the Forgotten Ones and the Elven gods were sealed away in different places. Trespasser revealed that the Fade and the physical world were once the same so it makes sense that these two pantheons would be separated and imprisoned in these two different worlds. Perhaps the separation itself hinges on the fact that the pantheons themselves are separated. It might explain why Solas is so passionate and interested in the Wardens' plan to invade the deep roads and slay the Old Gods or why Mythal wants to preserve Urthemiel; though Mythal and Solas may have had different interests when it came to the Old Gods.

 

It could also explain why, if the Old Gods are indeed the Forgotten Ones, they would bid the magisters to invade the Fade. Solas said in Trespasser that much of the Elven empire relied on the co-existance of the Fade with the physical world. As others have suggested, perhaps the Golden/Black City is Arlathan and the Elven gods are trapped in what remains of their greatest city. Free one set and you free both?

 

Another interesting thing to note is the dichotomy of Gold and Black. One of the codex entries in the library in Trespasser mentions a duel between champions of Elgar'nan and Falon'din - gold and black. Corypheus says the city was already black when he reached it so perhaps Elgar'nan was killed when Mythal was, or usurped later by Falon'din. (I think Falon'din may be the antagonist of the series in the future). What I can't figure out is why Corypheus, the Architect (not confirmed a magister but c'mon), and the others failed. If the goal was to release the Elven pantheon knowingly, or unknowingly, then you'd think the pantheon would go along with it. It could be that they were thwarted not by the Maker but by Solas or some other guardian.

 

So following that logic; Falon'din, god of death, has already touched the magisters despite their failure to release him and unleashes the Blight upon the world through them creating the Darkspawn who are compelled to find the Old Gods and release them from their prisons. The Old Gods rise to the surface spreading death and corruption to the surface and ideally making more Darkspawn who would eventually find more Old Gods. This apocalyptic cycle should be inevitable except for the Grey Wardens who can destroy Old God souls/spirits through a process that really isn't fully understood other than "not a soulless vessel".

 

Some gaps in this theory that I can think of off the top of my head...

 

1. It's still unknown how Titans fit into all of this. They could be, as has been mentioned, the prisons for the Old Gods themselves. We know lyrium is their blood and the blight can corrupt lyrium so it stands to reason that the blight can corrupt or kill titans. However, in Descent it's noted at one point (I believe shortly after you first encounter the Sha-Brytol) that the Darkspawn seem to be avoiding that part of the Deep Roads (which turned out to be a Titan), so I'm not sure the Titans are the prisons.

 

2. The Old Gods might not actually be malicious judging by Kieran if he exists. Again, we know so little about them but Kieran (Urthemiel) is intereacting with Flemeth (Mythal) and there is no animosity between them. How much Kieran knows about himself isn't fully laid out but it seems like he's plenty aware of the Old and magical things of the world and understands his connection with Mythal, whatever that might be. He certainly didn't turn out to be Damien Thorn or anything, nor was he talking about storming the Black City. This alone could be enough to sink the theory that the Old Gods (at least the true Old Gods) bade the magisters to enter the Golden City or that they wanted to release the Evanuris at all.

[VorexRyder]

Stuff I've posted in SpaceBattles about the OG/EG connection:

Dumah-Silence Dumat-Silence

 

Zadkiel-Freedom Zazikel-Chaos

 

Uriel-Light Urthemiel-Beauty(Maybe)

 

Leliel-Night Lusacan-Night

 

Raziel-Secrets Razikale-Mystery

 

"His crime is high treason. He took on a form reserved for the gods and their chosen, and dared to fly in the shape of the divine. The sinner belongs to Dirthamen; he claims he took wings at the urging of Ghilan'nain, and begs protection from Mythal. She does not show him favor, and will let Elgar'nan judge him."

This shows that the Evanuris took the form of dragons. And who were also gods in the form of dragons? Who also were conveniently 'sealed' by the time of Tevinter? And who drove their servants into the Fade with what little conscience they had left? I hereby submit that the Old Gods of the Tevinter Imperium are, in fact, the physical bodies of the Evanuris, chained and sealed while their minds are separated from them by the Veil. It explains why Solas is so panicky at the thought of the Wardens blindly hunting for their prisons, and also coincides with ancient elvhen statues depicting their gods with more draconic features.

 

 

I posit that the Evanuris before the death of Mythal numbered Eight(the Forgotten were once counted amongst their number, what if they "forgot" themselves and went full dragon?), that Solas was not an Evanuris but a "chosen" of Mythal, and that each of the "Old Gods" too was the "chosen" of an Evanuris. DA:O has a statue attributed to June that greatly resembles the Architect with dragon wings, and both the Statue and the Architect have that weird head piece that is also the symbol of Urthemiel. What if it's not a statue of June, but like Solas' statues in guarding Mythal, a statue of Urthemiel standing in deference/reverence to June?

 

Elvhen names mostly have a Middle Eastern thing going on (and a bit of Welsh) right?
Usually modified or regular Hebrew with some Egyptian thrown in. Like Uriel/Light of God(El) becoming Urthemiel/God of Beauty, the Tabris surname, Duma/Silence into Dumat/Silence, or Raziel/Secrets becoming Razikale/Mystery.

Then we have the fact that the Old Gods are probably(maybe) the personal servants of one of the 'Creators', sort like Sethius' Red Lyrium Dragon which Solas(of course) claims is the ghetto-rigged version of similar Elvhen magic. Add to that the references to the Creators and their servants becoming dragons, and we can safely presume that Mythal's Temple Guardian/Morrigan is the same type of being as the pre-blight OG.

It would also explain more clearly the reason Sylaise's(Hearth Keeper) servant, the OG of Fire, is named Toth a clear variation of the Egyptian Thoth.
Since Sylaise is considered, at least by worshippers and herself as 'he bees knees'/Mary Sue like the Egyptian Thoth(especially after the Greeks were done with him):


"Sylaise, whose heat rivals Elgar'nan's light.
Sylaise, whose temples rival Mythal's cities.
Sylaise, whose breath rivals Andruil's spear.
Sylaise, whose skill rivals June's craft.
Sylaise, whose fire cannot be quenched.

We give ourselves gladly to your service.

 

Solas mentions how Elvhen cities were all Golden an Floaty, it's likely that the Golden City was Arlathan.

You learn at the Temple of Mythal that the "Chosen of the Gods" were also allowed to become Dragons.

 

There's mention of a cataclysmic event that the Evanuris would've unleashed and a great many hints to it being related to the Blight/Void/Red Lyrium/Taint.

It's said that when Andruil went into the Void to hunt Forgotten Ones and made some armor out of the Void, she 'Forgot' herself and unleashed a 'great plague' on her people. One of the Forgotten Ones' name (Geldauran) can be taken to mean"Scary Disease". The Forgotten Ones are considered by the Dalish to be Gods of disease, terror, spite and malevolence. The Forgotten Ones had resided in a place known as the "Void," where no mortal nor god could have remained in. They may have greatly resented the Creator gods, and in fact asserted that there are no "gods" and that the right of dominance over others comes from deeds rather than nature.

 

The "Solas was not one of the Evanuris" theory AKA "The Unlikeliest One", "The One that Stretches and Bends the Facts the Most"
​We know that each of the Evanuris had Chosen Ones, and it is possible that the 'One' part is most likely used as an adjective rather than a pronoun, thus referring to each Evanuris only having a singular Chosen at a time. Thus I posit Solas was not an Evanuris but a "chosen" of Mythal, and that each of the "Old Gods" too was the "chosen" of an Evanuris. We knows Solas' Orb is linked/belonged to Mythal from the developer notes, and that in Origins there are statues attributed to June that greatly resemble a skinnier/Elvhen version of Archie(The Builder of Pretty Things) with added dragon wings, and both Archie and the Statue have the same goofy looking hat

 

 

symbol of Urthemiel.

What if it's not a statue of June but, like Solas' wolf statues in a guarding position around Mythal, it is a statue of Urthemiel Champion of June? What if the Chosen are also ranted a 'Divine Spark', one that is bound to their Liege instead of being independent, and that is why Solas and Flemeth(12% Mythal content by Volume) both refer to the Orb as Solas', he 'inherited' it along with her followers when Mythal was killed( in order to overrule her Ban on messing with the fallen Titans for their Lyrium?). "He did not want a body, but she asked him to come. He left a scar when he burned her off his face." Solas has a pockmark/scar in the shape of a wolf betwen his eyebrows. He then allied with the Forgotten Ones as a mysterious trickster that the later came to be known under the monicker Fen'Harel, while Solas' took up his position as Mythal's successor in order to protect her people as well as spy and sabotage the Evanuris, then both sides escalating(Geldauran practically/anvilisciously means terrorist, so you can imagine how bad the war got) until sealing both parties using rope, padlocks, sticky tape, the Veil and everything in between in order to save the world.

Also, elves seemed able cast-off their bodies at will and ****** off as souls until they didn't felt like it anymore, like the Forbidden Ones did until they bravely ran away during the Titanomachia and were cursed into/punished with permanent incorporeality. "He did not want a body, but she asked him to come. He left a scar when he burned her off his face."Cole on Solas, Elvhen NEET.

Dumah-Silence Dumat-Silence

 

Zadkiel-Freedom Zazikel-Chaos

 

Uriel-Light Urthemiel-Beauty(Maybe)

 

Leliel-Night Lusacan-Night

 

Raziel-Secrets Razikale-Mystery

Angel-Old God

Dumah-Dumat/Silence, Vindication, Stillness of Death-Silence=  Elgar'nan seems tobe the Evanuris' "Nuclear Option", in the sense wipes **** out thoroughly and leaves only "Silence" behind.

 

Zadkiel-Freedom Zazikel-Chaos

 Zadkiel-Zazikel/Freedom/Chaos= Seems to fit Ghilan'nain being the "Mother of Monsters" and being some sort of Mad Scientist with a degree in Magical Genetic Engineering.

 

Uriel-Urthemiel/Light-Beauty= Obvisouly June, God of Crafts.

 

Leliel-Lusacan/Night-Night= Falon'Din, friend of the dead, Twin to Dirthamen, and one of the two remaining Archdemon-to-be.

 

Raziel-Razikale/Secrets-Secrets= Dirthamen, God of Secrets, Twin to Falon'Din, and the other remaining Archdemon-to-be.

 

Thoth egyptian god of mediating, knowledge, balance, the moon, duality, and creator of the alphabet, and every branch of science. Toth Old God of Fire.= Sylaise the Hearthkeeper, since Thoth much like Sylaise kept having attributes and acknowledgements added, despite their having some very basic original duties to the point they're the Mary Sues of their respective myths:

"It is Sylaise who gave us fire and taught us how to use it. It is Sylaise who showed us how to heal with herbs and with magic, and how to ease the passage of infants into this world. And again, it is Sylaise who showed us how to spin the fibers of plants into thread and rope."

"Sylaise, whose heat rivals Elgar'nan's light.
Sylaise, whose temples rival Mythal's cities.
Sylaise, whose breath rivals Andruil's spear.
Sylaise, whose skill rivals June's craft.
Sylaise, whose fire cannot be quenched."

 

Abaddon-Andoral/Destruction-Slaves= Andruil Goddess of the Hunt and Sacrifice also said to have crafted a spear of unbearable heat, crafted from stars, continously undergoing Fusion. (I call this hypothesis: Andoral's Reach, since it is a bit of a stretch.)

ttrZadkiel-Freedom Zazikel-Chaos

[myahele]

It is interesting that Heidrun Thaig was build on top of an Old God prison. Not only that, but there are dragon statues (in Dwarven style) throughout that Thaig.

 

Could the Ancient Dwarves have worshiped or protected the Old Gods? Mythal, who's heavily associated with Dragons, seem to have a relationship with the Dwarves (at least after killing their Titan) in that there's an old Elvhen nursery rhyme:

Written beside each elven line is a corresponding phrase, likely a translation: 

I am empty, filled with nothing(?), 
Mythal gives you dreams. 
It fills you, within you(?), 
Making our leaders proud.
My little stones,
Never yours the sun.
Forever, forever.

Hahren said we had lost some of the old words. What if they have changed? Durgen'lin from durgen'len? Little dwarves, never yours the sun? What did Mythal do here?

 

[Aulis Vaara]

... and the blight can corrupt lyrium ...

No, it can't. There's no evidence that darkspawn can corrupt lyrium, nor any evidence of tainted lyrium creating darkspawn. Red lyrium was tainted through another process that we have yet to understand, and all the red lyrium lying around did not create any darkspawn. In fact, people needed to actively ingest the stuff in order to be mutated by it, and at that point they became something similar to, but clearly different from, darkspawn.

[Aren]

 

 

2. The Old Gods might not actually be malicious judging by Kieran if he exists. Again, we know so little about them but Kieran (Urthemiel) is intereacting with Flemeth (Mythal) and there is no animosity between them. How much Kieran knows about himself isn't fully laid out but it seems like he's plenty aware of the Old and magical things of the world and understands his connection with Mythal, whatever that might be. He certainly didn't turn out to be Damien Thorn or anything, nor was he talking about storming the Black City. This alone could be enough to sink the theory that the Old Gods (at least the true Old Gods) bade the magisters to enter the Golden City or that they wanted to release the Evanuris at all.

Not a valid argument really.

Those two were linked and the innocent child become creepy with the other being inside of him.

You still don't know what is the personality of an old god,that one was fused with another living being consciousness.

and if he truly wanted to storm the black city why he should come to tell you?

[ghostz82]

From what I understand from the descent and trespasser DLC lore along with the solas secret ending you can get solas states that he and all Elven gods were false gods who only gained their powers and immortality after a war they had which if you read the lore i think it was in descent or trespasser I forget which it states and talks about that war which they had against the Titans whom they betrayed , battled, and killed and only afterwards by doing something with the Titan bodies they managed to steal the Titans powers too and gain their god hood powers and status among their people. Also solas said that was only when the false gods went to far that he decided to form the veil to banish them and when asked what he meant by the false gods going to far for him to do so he states that it was when the false gods decided to betray and kill Mythal the best and only good one of the false gods and that is what drove him to do what he did and what he meant by they went to far. Now this was all facts from lore and the game itself that you can find on YouTube if you haven't played the DLC.

Now as far as opinions solas does say more then once that all tales of the past are not true and that alot is altered and actually more simple. So I think you have to only assume the old gods in the fade are and have been the same false gods solas banished and created the veil for unless I misunderstood something sure sounds like it by what I stated above and you see in DLC. Now as far as who are and were the forgotten ones I think they are in fact the TItans the real gods that the false gods betrayed and got their powers from and that are and have been imprisoned underground in earth Since and after that war.

Man I love dragon age it's world and lore is huge you still have other races, lands, and parts of the dragon age world left alone and unexplored in the games yet. So along with tevinter and even par vollen yet to be fully explored and visited in a game keep in mind and remember that Qunari came from the Kossith an ancient race or group of races it's still not clear that hails from eastern lands across oceans and whom the Qunari appear different from visually but are descendants of so we haven't seen it all so there is plenty of lore and discovery left to keep things exciting for writers and developers to work with and continue developing dragon age sequels for awhile if they like.