228 réponses à ce sujet

[TheEggCrusher]

I am an infrequent commenter, but I like this theory on elven origins. I think it is telling that the fade spirit Wisdom took the form of an elven woman after being released from the binding circle.

Edit - on the bald elf thing: Wisdom the fade elf had hair.

thanks for liking it

 

all this elf-hair talk is actually making me laugh. i've never even thought about that before XD I just thought it was a cultural thing for well-respected elders (look at Zathrian in DA:O)

 

And yes, it is telling that she took the form of an elven woman. I've been thinking about this stuff for so long, and it makes me happy to see people notice the little things that go along with my theories  

[hiraeth]

I am by no means an expert on Elvhen lore, but weren't the Creators comprised of nine members? You listed seven, so I got confused!

[TheEggCrusher]

I think hair is something that came to be with elves (and most likely everyone else except the dwarves as well) after the veil was created. Life was in an interesting place between the immaterial and material before that and just how much they had to obey the laws of the "unchanging world" is not explored. Hair is a natural response to cold, but would someone who's 50/50 between material and immaterial feel cold?

If this is true, it must have been quite a shock to suddenly be beholden to ALL the laws of the physical realm.

I think everything was an overtime process. The more they became physical, the more they needed hair and other physical traits. I would think the early, early, elves (which probably didn't even look like elves much) would have started to have hair. 

[TheEggCrusher]

I am by no means an expert on Elvhen lore, but weren't the Creators comprised of nine members? You listed seven, so I got confused!

the next two come later  

 

they aren't of the original pantheon. 

[hiraeth]

the next two come later

 

they aren't of the original pantheon. 

Ah, I see you have sections on Ghilan'nain and Fen'harel/Solas scheduled for later today! Looking forward to it Thanks for consolidating Elvhen lore--it's nice to see a relatively simplified version of all the events told in in a linear fashion!

[AppalachianAxis]

I don't have much to add, theory-wise. I just have my own take on the whole Elven gods-who-actually-aren't really-gods thing.

 

So... Solas claims that the Elven pantheon weren't actually Gods, but powerful mages. And yeah, in a literal sense, he's right; they weren't "gods" insofar as they weren't supernatural and weren't divine.

 

But here's my take, I still consider them to be Gods.

I mean, think about the context of these beings. These were elves who lived in a time where people were already immortal, had magic so powerful as to defy modern understanding, and intertwined with spirits freely. To be able to raise oneself above such people is alone an astonishing achievement. To rule these people would require power and influence beyond imagining. To have such people consider you a God and, well, I say you pretty much are one.

 

So while I do acknowledge that the Elven pantheon were not "divine" and certainly not "creators" but... they were Gods. At least, in a practical sense. They were higher beings, superior in every way to a race of elves which, if we encountered them today, would already be considered so above modern magic and civilization that it would boggle the mind.

 

I mean, just *look* at what Solas alone can do in the final DLC. He created the freaking Veil itself and he can turn mo-fos to stone WITH HIS EYEBALLS.

He may deny it denounce the rest of the Pantheon, but you try telling me that's *not* a God.

[Roamingmachine]

Something everyone should remember when dealing with all things Fen'Harel in the DLC...With all the exploits those murals talk about, all the supposed nobleness and being the 'stand-up' kind of a person on the side of the commoners, how is he remembered after all was said and done?
Trickster. Traitor. Outcast. God of misfortune, his very name a curse. And all that came to be AFTER he had sealed away the rest of the gods so it certainly isn't propaganda from them.
Makes you think a bit about just how...honest and just he was then, and how much he is trying to repeat history now as he has earned all those titles yet again.

[kukumburr]

Looking at Cole's little cryptic comments is interesting. I think quite a few them directly refer to Solas. 

 

1. "He did not want a body, but she asked him to come. He left a scar when he burned her off his face."

 

I think this one might be referring to him, if you accept that the ancient elves or whatever could transition from spirit form to a mortal form, which there is a lot of evidence for. The way I read it is Mythal asked him to join her on the earth, in a mortal form. In mortal form, he had Mythal's vallaslin, which he "burned off his face", perhaps even by her instruction. This could have been the start of Mythal doing something to move against the Evanuris, which is maybe what turned them against her. 

 

2. "Bare-faced but free, frolicking, fighting, fierce. He wants to give wisdom, not orders."

 

This one seems like a continuation of the first one, almost. At this point he's bare-faced and free, and has become a somewhat reluctant rebellion leader.

 

3. "He broke the dreams to stop the old dreams from waking. The wolf chews its leg off to escape the trap."

 

And then this one I guess could be referring to him lifting the Veil, what with breaking the dreams to stop the old dreams from waking (the Evanuris?). The wolf chewing its leg off to escape the trap could be describing him somehow cutting himself off in some way to avoid the same fate.

 

I don't know if any of this contradicts other elven lore really, but I feel like a lot of them refer to Solas. Unless they're just references to other media I don't know about.

 

 

 

[Roamingmachine]

Oh, I think those are most certainly about Solas.

It's interesting that apparently he was actually called in to physical form by Mythal and that his initial body carried her vallaslin. Was the body formed just for him or was it a person before? The ancient vallaslin certainly seem to be much, much more than mere tattoos. In any case, that's not how 'mortals' come in to being now is it? Kinda makes his later claims of mortality dubious.

The second part is a reference to his personality rather than any actual point in time in his existence I feel. He wanted to teach, not rule, and enjoy life and he is passionate about his feelings.

And on the third point I agree with you

[TheEggCrusher]

Looking at Cole's little cryptic comments is interesting. I think quite a few them directly refer to Solas. 

 

1. "He did not want a body, but she asked him to come. He left a scar when he burned her off his face."

 

I think this one might be referring to him, if you accept that the ancient elves or whatever could transition from spirit form to a mortal form, which there is a lot of evidence for. The way I read it is Mythal asked him to join her on the earth, in a mortal form. In mortal form, he had Mythal's vallaslin, which he "burned off his face", perhaps even by her instruction. This could have been the start of Mythal doing something to move against the Evanuris, which is maybe what turned them against her. 

 

2. "Bare-faced but free, frolicking, fighting, fierce. He wants to give wisdom, not orders."

 

This one seems like a continuation of the first one, almost. At this point he's bare-faced and free, and has become a somewhat reluctant rebellion leader.

 

3. "He broke the dreams to stop the old dreams from waking. The wolf chews its leg off to escape the trap."

 

And then this one I guess could be referring to him lifting the Veil, what with breaking the dreams to stop the old dreams from waking (the Evanuris?). The wolf chewing its leg off to escape the trap could be describing him somehow cutting himself off in some way to avoid the same fate.

 

I don't know if any of this contradicts other elven lore really, but I feel like a lot of them refer to Solas. Unless they're just references to other media I don't know about.

hehe you're following my theories already 

 

I agree with you on everything and I'll try to cover it all as they become relevant 

[TheEggCrusher]

I don't have much to add, theory-wise. I just have my own take on the whole Elven gods-who-actually-aren't really-gods thing.

 

So... Solas claims that the Elven pantheon weren't actually Gods, but powerful mages. And yeah, in a literal sense, he's right; they weren't "gods" insofar as they weren't supernatural and weren't divine.

 

But here's my take, I still consider them to be Gods.

I mean, think about the context of these beings. These were elves who lived in a time where people were already immortal, had magic so powerful as to defy modern understanding, and intertwined with spirits freely. To be able to raise oneself above such people is alone an astonishing achievement. To rule these people would require power and influence beyond imagining. To have such people consider you a God and, well, I say you pretty much are one.

 

So while I do acknowledge that the Elven pantheon were not "divine" and certainly not "creators" but... they were Gods. At least, in a practical sense. They were higher beings, superior in every way to a race of elves which, if we encountered them today, would already be considered so above modern magic and civilization that it would boggle the mind.

 

I mean, just *look* at what Solas alone can do in the final DLC. He created the freaking Veil itself and he can turn mo-fos to stone WITH HIS EYEBALLS.

He may deny it denounce the rest of the Pantheon, but you try telling me that's *not* a God.

I have a theory that, as Solas hints at, the Creators were the "first of The People" and so very closely tied with the fade. Because of this, they would have had magical abilities beyond all others, like the younger of The People. 

 

I would, in a way, definitely consider them Gods because of how immense their power would have been.

 

What Solas is trying to accomplish, to rebuild the world, is the task of a God. No matter what he says, God or not, he's trying to play the role of one regardless. And I think he could very well succeed, given his obviously incredible magical power. 

[Neras]

Well, the name "Solas" is very telling isn't it? With Cole we've seen that spirit/demons are less one or the other and more of a spectrum. After all of the codexes connecting spirits and elves and he saying "Solas came first" I figured that at some point he was particularly powerful spirit of Wisdom that became corrupted when he took physical form i.e. becoming "Pride".

[Feral'Hen]

What Solas is trying to accomplish, to rebuild the world, is the task of a God. No matter what he says, God or not, he's trying to play the role of one regardless. And I think he could very well succeed, given his obviously incredible magical power. 

Solas doesn't want to rebuild the world, he wants to rewind history in order to bring back his people. Something similar to what we did in the quest In Hushed Whispers. Sadly, going back in time to change everything implies that the current world would cease to exist, in fact, it would have never existed. That is why Solas didn't saw current people as real people. 

[TheEggCrusher]

Well, the name "Solas" is very telling isn't it? With Cole we've seen that spirit/demons are less one or the other and more of a spectrum. After all of the codexes connecting spirits and elves and he saying "Solas came first" I figured that at some point he was particularly powerful spirit of Wisdom that became corrupted when he took physical form i.e. becoming "Pride".

this is actually the basis of my "Solas theory" 

 

It's really cool to see all you guys coming up with similar theories as me. 

 

makes me feel like i'm not crazy XD 

 

(i'ma talk about Solas later today in the master post) 

 

 

Solas doesn't want to rebuild the world, he wants to rewind history in order to bring back his people. Something similar to what we did in the quest In Hushed Whispers. Sadly, going back in time to change everything implies that the current world would cease to exist, in fact, it would have never existed. That is why Solas didn't saw current people as real people. 

 

Yes, it is very sad. He wants to change the world back to what was, though a new world is already in its place. 

 

I love Solas' character, and I think he has an amazing personality and upstanding morals, but there is a part of him that is definitely corrupted that I hope can at least be helped in later games. 

 

One hope is that, if your quissy was friends with or romanced him, his perspective does change. He admits he was wrong, that the modern Thedosians are in fact people, but that he will still sacrifice them for Elvhenan. 

 

I personally hope that he can be persuaded enough later on to realize how hypocritical he is being, though I do want the veil to be torn down due to my own controversial opinions on the overall state of Thedas. I wouldn't stop him exactly, but I would persuade him to realize that the glory of the Elvhen is gone and that there is new beauty in the world to love and appreciate. 

[Neras]

this is actually the basis of my "Solas theory" 

 

It's really cool to see all you guys coming up with similar theories as me. 

 

makes me feel like i'm not crazy XD 

 

(i'ma talk about Solas later today in the master post) 

I'll look forward to it!

 

Honestly I'm still reeling from Tresspasser and can't bring myself to take any other character through it right now, even the ones with (relatively) happy endings waiting for them. I knew that if I did not start off with my Solas-romanced Lavellen I might never play her through. Maybe I'll try again in a few weeks.  But the all the lore a was nice change, and it is nice to have a bit more solid ground to theorize with for once!

 

Edit: had to answer door

 

I also think that the Solasan temple was built built by some of the Elvhen survivors of Fen'Harel's faction. Perhaps even some of the "agents" he has running around atm, like Felessan. I wonder how many ancient elves have been running around Thedas' history? Considering Solas' opinion of the Kingdom of the Dales, there might have been a fair amount of them blending in there.

 

Hmm, I might be getting off topic.

Modifié par Neras, 10 septembre 2015 - 09:28 .

[azarhal]

 

On a different issue - Felassan claims that the Elves were the only beings in Thedas, but that really is a surprise only in regards to the dwarves, isn't it? There have been stories about the humans and the qunari having originated on other continents.

 

Solas doesn't consider beings living in the post-Veil world as real or people, chance are the rest of his people had the same point-of-view pre-Veil to everyone not connected to the Fade.

 

That's why he killed Felassan actually, he was starting to see the current elves as people.

[TheEggCrusher]

Solas doesn't consider beings living in the post-Veil world as real or people, chance are the rest of his people had the same point-of-view pre-Veil to everyone not connected to the Fade.

 

That's why he killed Felassan actually, he was starting to see the current elves as people.

Cole says some dialogue hinting that Solas was the one that killed Felassan. 

 

Here's a compilation of Cole dialogue a friend posted here to get the thread started (it's the first one): 

 

 

I have some pretty strong opinions on this and don't want to get too much into them, but I do believe Solas killed Felassan because, at the time, he was convinced the modern Thedosians were not truly people. 

 

Imo, whether he feels the same way now depends on how you treated him with your inquisitor, and how much left of him there is to salvage. 

[TheEggCrusher]

Part 4 is up! 

[Merengues 1945]

Something everyone should remember when dealing with all things Fen'Harel in the DLC...With all the exploits those murals talk about, all the supposed nobleness and being the 'stand-up' kind of a person on the side of the commoners, how is he remembered after all was said and done?
Trickster. Traitor. Outcast. God of misfortune, his very name a curse. And all that came to be AFTER he had sealed away the rest of the gods so it certainly isn't propaganda from them.
Makes you think a bit about just how...honest and just he was then, and how much he is trying to repeat history now as he has earned all those titles yet again.

 

What it really makes me think about is how Solas is trying to tear down the veil... Outside of the Old Gods, the ancient elves, probably the dwarves and some humans, there will not be many survivors of a cataclysm hundreds of times greater than the breach and the temple of sacred ashes. But who's likely to survive? The Evanuris.

 

I assure you that those guys have not been spending the last ~1500 years just idly waiting. I'm even from the idea that they were the authors of the blight in some nefarious purpose. And likely they do hold some grudge against Solas. He may be two and a half living in one body but they're still seven, I don't think that turning them into stone is really a feasible action. So what's his grand plan after tearing the veil?

 

Seems to me that after returning the world to what it used to be, only greater confrontation would arise and for what we know, he may end up in the losing side and with the world regressing to a state of opression and decadence.

[TheEggCrusher]

Part 5  

[myahele]

The image to the right is clearly an Elf, but what about the image to the left. 

 

It doesn't look like an elf at all, ithas what look to be a snout and horns? Perhpas a dragon? The coloration is also not like how elves are depicted in murals; instead its reddish-purple

[midnight tea]

The image to the right is clearly an Elf, but what about the image to the left. 

 

It doesn't look like an elf at all, ithas what look to be a snout and horns? Perhpas a dragon? The coloration is also not like how elves are depicted in murals; instead its reddish-purple

 

LOL, that's just an elf with a head raised upwards. He's looking up, towards the sky.

 

Also - I'm pretty goddamn sure that's Solas and this picture has something to do with the creation of the Veil.

[TheEggCrusher]

What it really makes me think about is how Solas is trying to tear down the veil... Outside of the Old Gods, the ancient elves, probably the dwarves and some humans, there will not be many survivors of a cataclysm hundreds of times greater than the breach and the temple of sacred ashes. But who's likely to survive? The Evanuris.

 

I assure you that those guys have not been spending the last ~1500 years just idly waiting. I'm even from the idea that they were the authors of the blight in some nefarious purpose. And likely they do hold some grudge against Solas. He may be two and a half living in one body but they're still seven, I don't think that turning them into stone is really a feasible action. So what's his grand plan after tearing the veil?

 

Seems to me that after returning the world to what it used to be, only greater confrontation would arise and for what we know, he may end up in the losing side and with the world regressing to a state of opression and decadence.

Well, as Solas said, he "has plans." Now, in saying that, I have rightfully learned to never trust his plans, since he apparently rarely succeeds. Ever. 

 

He gave the orb to Cory, which lead to a huge impending world catastrophe. He created the veil, which destroyed the entirety of Elvhenan. He even (depending on game choices) fell in love with the main person he had planned to manipulate to his own ends, causing him to almost sway from his plans altogether.

 

He doesn't seem to be doing anything right, honestly. 

 

I fully believe that "his plans" to deal with the Evanuris will fail, and will cause a huge problem for the protagonist in a later game. 

 

Now, in saying that, Bioware usually has overall happy endings, even if specific characters might tragically kick-the-bucket (Solas prediction) along the way. I believe Solas will cast the world into an impending doom that we will be forced to fix. And it will be one hell of a story. 

[TheEggCrusher]

The image to the right is clearly an Elf, but what about the image to the left. 

 

It doesn't look like an elf at all, ithas what look to be a snout and horns? Perhpas a dragon? The coloration is also not like how elves are depicted in murals; instead its reddish-purple

I'm fairly sure those are both paintings of Solas/Fen'Harel, especially considering the Fen'Harel eyes all in the center circle of the mural. 

 

Now, what it is trying to represent I'm unsure about, but:

 

 

 

that's Solas and this picture has something to do with the creation of the Veil.

seems a pretty good interpretation, to me. 

[jedidotflow]

Looking at Cole's little cryptic comments is interesting. I think quite a few them directly refer to Solas. 

 

1. "He did not want a body, but she asked him to come. He left a scar when he burned her off his face."

 

I think this one might be referring to him, if you accept that the ancient elves or whatever could transition from spirit form to a mortal form, which there is a lot of evidence for. The way I read it is Mythal asked him to join her on the earth, in a mortal form. In mortal form, he had Mythal's vallaslin, which he "burned off his face", perhaps even by her instruction. This could have been the start of Mythal doing something to move against the Evanuris, which is maybe what turned them against her. 

 

2. "Bare-faced but free, frolicking, fighting, fierce. He wants to give wisdom, not orders."

 

This one seems like a continuation of the first one, almost. At this point he's bare-faced and free, and has become a somewhat reluctant rebellion leader.

 

3. "He broke the dreams to stop the old dreams from waking. The wolf chews its leg off to escape the trap."

 

And then this one I guess could be referring to him lifting the Veil, what with breaking the dreams to stop the old dreams from waking (the Evanuris?). The wolf chewing its leg off to escape the trap could be describing him somehow cutting himself off in some way to avoid the same fate.

 

I don't know if any of this contradicts other elven lore really, but I feel like a lot of them refer to Solas. Unless they're just references to other media I don't know about.

 

Doesn't Solas have a prominent yet small scar in his head, above his left brow?