The image to the right is clearly an Elf, but what about the image to the left.
It doesn't look like an elf at all, ithas what look to be a snout and horns? Perhpas a dragon? The coloration is also not like how elves are depicted in murals; instead its reddish-purple
Those are Elgar'nan and Mythal. Above the elf on the left (Elgar'nan) is a symbol that probably represents earth. Above the one on the right (Mythal) is a symbol that represents the sea. IIRC, Elgar'nan came from the earth and Mythal from the sea.
The sun, curious about the land, bowed his head close to her body, and Elgar'nan was born in the place where they touched.
Codex entry: Elgar'nan: God of Vengeance
It was at this moment that Mythal walked out of the sea of the Earth's tears and onto the land.
Codex entry: Mythal: the Great Protector
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This image looks like it has the 7 evanuris around the inner circle. Flanked on each side by Fen'harel to the left (with his pelt and a moon behind his head), and Mythal to the right (with the water symbol above her)? Though what is Mythal holding (the 8 pointed star)? They are both set within eluvian shapes, or perhaps it's just a typical Elven archway.
Within the inner circle amongst the eyes looks like something similar to the chantry symbol.
"For one moment there is an image of a shifting, shadowy mass with blazing eyes, whose form may be one or many. Then it fades."
If that's Elgar'nan, then the other seven around him are Andruil, June, Sylaise, Dirthamen, Mythal, Falon'Din, and Ghilan'nain. The two on either side of the central fresco are maybe...two different forms of Fen'Harel? On the right, he seems to be raising his orb to seal them away.
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Thanks for linking me back to this thread; I'd lost it in the rush of posts in the Solas thread
Solas does not seem to consider himself one of the Evanuris, but he DOES consider Mythal to be one. That's why I thought the eyeball thing was Elgar'nan, and the other seven were the Evanuris. He stands apart from them on either side of the fresco. As for the Chantry sunburst, lemme repost what I said in the Solas thread about the parallels between the Chantry lore and the elven lore:
I know, I know, here I am dragging the icky Chantry into our happy fun elfy times. But it does, bizarrely, line up.
First the Maker created the spirits and the Fade--and that's all the world was. There was no Veil. Everything was magical, and the first elves were the spirits who came to embody themselves. The Golden City? Probably Arlathan.
And then, the Maker sundered the world by separating the mortal realm from the spirits via the Veil. "By My Will alone is Balance sundered / And the world given new life." The firstborn of the Maker began to corrupt mortals by declaring themselves gods. Sound like the Evanuris to anyone else? The order is wrong; according to Solas, the Evanuris first became "gods", THEN Solas sealed them behind the Veil. But the general cadence of things sounds awfully familiar. Solas even calls the Evanuris "the first of my people."
There's one more piece; the elves recognize a sun god and an earth goddess prior to the Evanuris, and call Elgar'nan the Eldest of the Sun...who usurped his father and cast him down. The Chantry teaches that the Maker's firstborn turned mortals from worshipping the Maker to worship them instead. After the Maker cast them down, they began to whisper to mortal men--the Tevinter magisters. So Maker = Sun. And we have that theory rolling around about the Old Gods being the imprisoned forms of the Evanuris.
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And to carry on the parallels between the sun, chantry and Elgar'nan I'll post something I discovered about the Order of Fiery Promise a few weeks ago:
So-called "astrariums" are relics from an order of pre-Andrastian magisters who believed in the destruction of the Magisterium and wanted to return to an earlier period where dreamers ruled. Many of these relics were sought out by Andrastrian cultists (the Order of Fiery Promise in particular) in the Divine Age and destroyed. Why? Because they believed the astrariums held together the veil, and that destroying them would destroy the world. The Order of Fiery Promise decreed that not only was the end of the world nigh, it was necessary; Thedas must be cleansed with fire and reborn as a paradise. They devoted themselves utterly to seeing this come about, whether they ever drew closer to their goal is unknown.
In the Western Approach are three astrariums:
Toth: old god, dragon of fire. Represented as a flaming orb or a man aflame.
Satinalis: Satina (the moon), or Satinalia (the holiday). Modernly depicted as the Celebrant (a man playing a lyre), previously depicted as Mortemalis (a warrior holding aloft a head, usually of an elf).
Fenrir: white wolf, assumed supplanted from Fen'harel; or, a neromenian tale that claims a wolf escaped hunters by fleeing into the sky.
Unlock these three constellations and an old Tevinter treasure room is revealed. Inside? One of the artifacts of Solas' people. Activate it to "strengthen the veil".
Things on my mind:
Do the three constellations in each area relate to each other?
The Order of Fiery Promise has a strange obsession with the Seekers and Chantry (the latter symbolized as the sun),
They think the Seekers stole their place,
They keep coming back from extinction after being wiped out by the Inquisition throughout the ages,
They've hunted the dreamers' relics,
They believe destroying the veil will destroy the world,
They want Thedas to be cleansed with fire in it's rebirth,
Will removing the veil cause some sort of fiery catastrophic event?
Lastly, a theory:
Will removing the veil set Elgar'nan, Eldest of the Sun, free from Fen'harel's prison so he can burn the ground under his gaze? It sounds like he had issues with going overboard from his codex entries. Though his burning gaze could be more metaphoric than literal.
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With Solas turning people to stone with his gaze (or glowy eyes at least) I won't be surprised if Elgar'nan can do the same.
I just want to know where do Dragons fit in all this? We know from Yavana that the "blood of dragons is the blood of this world" and that they ruled the skies prior to the Veil, but not much mention of them in Elvhen lore other than the Evanuris can shape shift into dragons.
But yeah, I'm also of the opinion that the "Maker" might be the overthrown Sun deity.
We know that the Earth ala The Stone and its children are real
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With Solas turning people to stone with his gaze (or glowy eyes at least) I won't be surprised if Elgar'nan can do the same.
I just want to know where do Dragons fit in all this? We know from Yavana that the "blood of dragons is the blood of this world" and that they ruled the skies prior to the Veil, but not much mention of them in Elvhen lore other than the Evanuris can shape shift into dragons.
But yeah, I'm also of the opinion that the "Maker" might be the overthrown Sun deity.
We know that the Earth ala The Stone and its children are real
my theory on dragons is that they were the original creatures of thedas. i responded to FernRain about this on the 2nd page i believe, but i'm not sure how to go back and quote it while still quoting you
These two images are similar in some ways. The moon(?) with the figure on the left (Fen'harel?) and the pointed symbol with the figure on the right. That same pointed symbol is in the middle of what looks like a beam of light that destroys the titan.
Gotta say, I'm down with pretty much everything in the original post, can't wait to see the part 6 once it is up!
A few things I would like to add.....or maybe rather questions I have based on some stuff that was revealed.
So, the war that happened that caused all this gradual rise of Evanuris, war with the Titans? And it seems that the Forgotten Ones must have refused to participate in the war, hence the Exile into what must be the Void.
I also wonder if all of the Pantheon were necessarily spirits that took physical form. For example, the legends mention that Falon'Din and Dirthamen were 'brothers' but not really. If you look at the story of the 'twins' Falon'Din had zero issue crossing over into the Fade whereas Dirthamen couldn't at first. As if he had to learn how to cross over/enter the Fade by defeating Fear and Deceit. They are also attributed to be the eldest children of Elgar'nan and Mythal, so I wonder if Falon'Din was a spirit child of them and Dirthamen a physically born younger brother.
Also, it looks like one of codex entries regarding ancient elves was left out.....the Birds of Fancy I think
The pages of this book—memory?—describe a pair playing, colliding in the air, bodies formed for kissing, stroking lines of heat as molten as the sun. The dance is fluid, roiling, never ending, lovers tangled in a laughing knot that rolls on for years, a promise never to be parted, whatever ages come.
An annoyed thought intrudes, from one who marked this memory after it was recorded:
"By the gods, find a private chamber!"
Everyone remember the banter of Blackwall asking Solas how do spirits get it on basically and Solas answering it's not that simple. I think this is at least some spirits/ancient elves making out. Apparently not as complex to describe as Solas claimed, lol.
On a different note, the bold part seems to indicate that elves/spirits could easily slip in between being a spirit and physical.
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I'm thinking that the orb with the pointed symbol that's in the center of the Titan could be it's "core" or essence per se that the Evanuris took from their bodies. We know they killed (?) them, mined their bodies for lyrium and "something else" The something else might be what gave them their godhood and also what eventually awakened something Terrible?
Since the Stone is very real, surely killing off it's 1st children (Titans) will enrage the Stone. For one thing, once Valta reconnected to the Titan/Stone we learn that she seeks to reconnect with her children and from Cole we find out that Dwarves subconsciously want to reconnect with The Stone
I also wonder if all of the Pantheon were necessarily spirits that took physical form. For example, the legends mention that Falon'Din and Dirthamen were 'brothers' but not really. If you look at the story of the 'twins' Falon'Din had zero issue crossing over into the Fade whereas Dirthamen couldn't at first. As if he had to learn how to cross over/enter the Fade by defeating Fear and Deceit.
Also, it looks like one of codex entries regarding ancient elves was left out.....the Birds of Fancy I think
The Falon'Din and Dirthamen interpretation you have makes sense to me!
And I left that codex out because I didn't think it was too relevant at the time, there are a few missing because of that.
Gotta say, I'm down with pretty much everything in the original post, can't wait to see the part 6 once it is up!
A few things I would like to add.....or maybe rather questions I have based on some stuff that was revealed.
So, the war that happened that caused all this gradual rise of Evanuris, war with the Titans? And it seems that the Forgotten Ones must have refused to participate in the war, hence the Exile into what must be the Void.
I also wonder if all of the Pantheon were necessarily spirits that took physical form. For example, the legends mention that Falon'Din and Dirthamen were 'brothers' but not really. If you look at the story of the 'twins' Falon'Din had zero issue crossing over into the Fade whereas Dirthamen couldn't at first. As if he had to learn how to cross over/enter the Fade by defeating Fear and Deceit. They are also attributed to be the eldest children of Elgar'nan and Mythal, so I wonder if Falon'Din was a spirit child of them and Dirthamen a physically born younger brother.
Also, it looks like one of codex entries regarding ancient elves was left out.....the Birds of Fancy I think
The pages of this book—memory?—describe a pair playing, colliding in the air, bodies formed for kissing, stroking lines of heat as molten as the sun. The dance is fluid, roiling, never ending, lovers tangled in a laughing knot that rolls on for years, a promise never to be parted, whatever ages come.
An annoyed thought intrudes, from one who marked this memory after it was recorded:
"By the gods, find a private chamber!"
Everyone remember the banter of Blackwall asking Solas how do spirits get it on basically and Solas answering it's not that simple. I think this is at least some spirits/ancient elves making out. Apparently not as complex to describe as Solas claimed, lol.
On a different note, the bold part seems to indicate that elves/spirits could easily slip in between being a spirit and physical.
The basic concept that the ancient elves are able to switch between the spiritual and physical is a big part of the basis of my theory. They are just as much part of the fade as they are the physical world, and so they exist and feel in both.
My theories sprout from my study of ancient cultures and how civilizations formed. I connect some dots, use logic and reasoning, look at trends in history, think about what the Bioware writers are trying to accomplish, and come up with some basic theories that make sense on the general level.
For me, the war was just different elven groups vying for power. The specifics of that could be anything, since I purposely formed the theory to be malleable. If you find something that makes sense with it, it could be possibly accurate, though that is not my strong point.
I think you are on to something here and they mostly line up with my theories about the ancient elves. Some things I wanted to say regarding my theories and how everything connects:
Spoiler
Regarding Spirits:
I do think that spirits were able to make themselves appear "more real" but I think it required something extra. Perhaps lyrium? That would link their interest in the Deep Roads.
Regarding the Forgotten Ones:
I think the Forgotten Ones are actually the Titans. We learned in the Descent DLC that the Titans were stricken from the Shaperate (or possibly never included in the first place, but I don't think that to be the case). We know the Shaperate records everything, and removing any reference to the Titans would mean that they were, indeed, Forgotten.
We know that Mythal killed one of the Titans and afterwards declared that it was too costly, pulling people away from such another conflict. This could allude to the war that Solas talked about, and could have been the catalyst that prompted her murder. The ancient elves wanted the lyrium and "demense" but Mythal's push didn't sit well with the other Evanuris.
Solas knew that the other Evanuris would want to continue fighting the Titans (Forgotten Ones) so he decided to stop that conflict, mostly out of revenge, but also to save his people (the ancient elves that would be used as fodder for this war) and created the veil, sealing the Evanuris away from the Titans.
Regarding Solas:
We could safely assume that when Solas sundered the world from the Fade when he created the veil, lots of "spirits in physical bodies" stayed in the world, which would explain why he sees people in the world as "Tranquil". I think he doesn't literally mean that they lost their connection to the Fade, but their connection to the Fade was diminished so much that they were not whole. We know that most races dream, and when they dream, they connect to the Fade. From what we know of the Fade, when they dream they see mostly what they want to see (although not always the case). The Golden City could be just that, a dream from those seperated from the old time of the ancient elves when they were at their most glorious, their Golden Age.
So that would place the Evanuris and the Forgotten ones in their respective places in the history, with the current lore that we have now, and it would match with all the lore we got so far. It would also give us a time of events for future speculation of what may have really happened in history, because what we knew before the last part of DA:I and Trespasser is very different than what we know now. This would also lead up to the lore we have on what happened to the elves after the veil was created.
We know that some elves that survived after the creation of the veil, with enough insight to change the stories around from Fen'Harel being a savior to being a trickster and a betrayer. If that was the case, what was there to stop them from continuing their "God's" feuds from before the world was sundered? We knew that the Evanuris wasn't all happy family with each other and often fight amongst themselves. What is also to say that there may have been two entirely different groups of surviving elves as well. Ones that held on to their knowledge of what had happened, and one that didn't know exactly what had happened. We have the group of elves that remembers the Evanuris as the old "Gods" and strived to reach that which they had lost (or honor what they had lost) which eventually became the Dalish. Then we have another group that may have consisted of elves and slaves that may have instead focused on making the most of the world they have now and cut some of their ties with the old life, thus they created an empire to establish order. This empire would be... the Tevinter Imperium.
This next part may be a bit off topic, but would relate to the legacy of what occured.
The old Tevinter empire was built on the same structure that was used by the ancient elves. The magisters were actually servants or high ranking members of their "Gods". Over time the names of these gods changed (as things are wont to do over time) into the names of the Old Gods we know today. This could happen for any number of reasons, such as language changing or distancing themselves from the hubris of the Evanuris.
Over time, the Tevinter empire lost their identity of coming from an elf society (possibly due to the mixture of elves and slaves, this is unclear because we have no idea what races were around when) and started resembling what we know about them today.
The magisters whom were magical still retained a strong connection to the Fade and kept seeing the Golden City in their dreams, a dream of what was in the past. Having forgotten of how the world was before the creation of the veil and the split between the Fade and the world. Maybe they had an idea of what had happened, maybe they didn't. What matters is they attempted to enter the Fade through a massive blood magic ritual.
The ritual blood magic used to enter the Fade had some terrible consequences. In fact, I think that in order to amass enough magical energy to use that ritual required more than just blood magic, I think it required a massive amount of lyrium as well... such as a direct source... say, like a Titan. So the Tevinter magisters performed blood magic with a massive amount of pure lyrium to enter the Fade. This corrupted the Titan and all the slaves that were being used for this ritual, creating the Blight.
So in essence, everything that Solas is trying to accomplish by bringing back his friends, is also an atonement for everything that was caused as a result of his actions by creating the veil and splitting the Fade from the world. I think, to Solas, that the resulting world was a much harsher place than when he came from.
Edit: Oooooh, I just had another thought regarding spirits and the Titans and the Evanuris.
What if the reasons the Evanuris went to war with each other was to amass more "slaves"? Spirits that were trapped in a physical "shell" through lyrium and "demense"? That would give proper reasoning to why the other Evanuris were so mad at Mythal for saying they shouldn't go after the other Titans. She was effectively saying "stop trying to get more slaves".
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I think that in order to amass enough magical energy to use that ritual required more than just blood magic, I think it required a massive amount of lyrium as well... such as a direct source... say, like a Titan. So the Tevinter magisters performed blood magic with a massive amount of pure lyrium to enter the Fade. This corrupted the Titan and all the slaves that were being used for this ritual, creating the Blight.
Do we know where the ritual was being preformed (in Tevinter)? Because I found a codex that said there were earthquakes near Vol Dorma in Tevinter. The last time we dealt with earthquakes was when a Titan was stirring. Which means to say earthquake = titan nearby.
This unsent letter is dated 9:41 Dragon, a month before the opening of the Breach:
Marcelle,
Forgive the absence of my letters. The Dalish raids were ominous enough, but now Gaspard's chevaliers ride through my estates without so much as a by-your-leave! What a time to rattle their swords: A shipment came the other day with things that will not travel well. A rare Nevarran miniature of Andraste, A triptych lattice of thinnest oak from Tevinter, and, most wondrous of all -- a pre-Chantry full-length elven mirror!
The Mirror was discovered after an earthquake near Vol Dorma brought to light an unplundered elven ruin. I purchased the entire lot - there were some other minor artifacts and trinkets -- and the mirror has quickly become my favorite. My wife insists we leave soon, and I suppose she is right, but I cannot bear to leave it behind. I will send for the mirror when I am safely in Val Royeaux, then throw a party where you can marvel at it yourself!
Do we know where the ritual was being preformed (in Tevinter)? Because I found a codex that said there were earthquakes near Vol Dorma in Tevinter. The last time we dealt with earthquakes was when a Titan was stirring. Which means to say earthquake = titan nearby.
The only information we have is that the First Blight started on the edges of Tevinter. Without seeing a map that includes the Tevinter borders (from that time), or information where the magisters attempted their ritual, there is no concrete proof.
Thanks!! I've figured out most of the lore in my theory, and I will be posting in parts. Just updated with the second part, though that one is more self-explanatory.
I will be getting into all that stuff with time but, sneak peak: physical forms can be manipulated and created by use of the Fade. Just as a spirit can become a physical creature, a powerful mage could assume grand physical forms, such as dragons.
About the spirit slaves, I think this is an important point. There are hints in Trespasser saying that Fen'Harel kept his spirit guardians (of his "sanctuary") there under their own free will. They chose, and it made it seem like not all spirits had that choice choice under other "gods."
The Qunari I think are very special (a variant of the Elves).
The humans I am actually pretty stumped on. I need more lore on them x-x
Dwarves: of The Stone. Spirits who cut themselves off from the Fade of Thedas and joined the Titans, which gave them bodies and intelligence and freewill
The "truth" of everything seems to be very connected, and, to me at least, extremely murky. It's not exactly a Middle Earth level of comprehensibility, but it is definitely complicated. I'll try to explain everything as well as I can
I personally think Dwarves are actually "Of the Titans" who "are the stone itself."
I mean, lyrium is now known to be a Titan's blood, and the dwarves who live in the ground truly do have a stone sense, and can hear the lyrium, while the dwarves topside lose that sense and don't know what it's like having it.
Which leads to an interesting bit of dwarven lore and history.
If what makes a dwarf is not being short and resistant to magic, but their stone sense and connection to the titans, then Orzammar, despite being mired in self-defeating traditions, may actually be correct in saying that dwarves who leave for the surface lose what it means to be a dwarf, their stone-sense.
The only information we have is that the First Blight started on the edges of Tevinter. Without seeing a map that includes the Tevinter borders (from that time), or information where the magisters attempted their ritual, there is no concrete proof.
Hmm, maybe the Titan near Vol Dorma is why Weisshaupt went silent.
The unchanging world is stubborn: the pull of the earth fiercely resists making fire run like water or stone rise like mist.
I think it's talking about the unchanging world as the world outside of the fade. "The pull of the earth fiercely resists" might be like seekers "reinforcing reality", making magic more difficult to manifest. Does "the earth" in that context relate to the stone? Not sure.
I think it's talking about the unchanging world as the world outside of the fade. "The pull of the earth fiercely resists" might be like seekers "reinforcing reality", making magic more difficult to manifest. Does "the earth" in that context relate to the stone? Not sure.
I'm thinking that "the earth" means the material plane as a whole. Which i theorize came in to being around the titans. Somehow the titans make things more...ordered around them meaning they are something of an antithesis of the ever-changing chaotic fade. The really weird part is lyrium, their very blood, which can either make reality more "real" and sever fade spirits completely from the material (the rite of tranquility, the qunari brainwashing thingy) or it can make the connection to the fade even stronger (how mages use it).
I think you are on to something here and they mostly line up with my theories about the ancient elves. Some things I wanted to say regarding my theories and how everything connects:
Spoiler
Regarding Spirits:
I do think that spirits were able to make themselves appear "more real" but I think it required something extra. Perhaps lyrium? That would link their interest in the Deep Roads.
Regarding the Forgotten Ones:
I think the Forgotten Ones are actually the Titans. We learned in the Descent DLC that the Titans were stricken from the Shaperate (or possibly never included in the first place, but I don't think that to be the case). We know the Shaperate records everything, and removing any reference to the Titans would mean that they were, indeed, Forgotten.
We know that Mythal killed one of the Titans and afterwards declared that it was too costly, pulling people away from such another conflict. This could allude to the war that Solas talked about, and could have been the catalyst that prompted her murder. The ancient elves wanted the lyrium and "demense" but Mythal's push didn't sit well with the other Evanuris.
Solas knew that the other Evanuris would want to continue fighting the Titans (Forgotten Ones) so he decided to stop that conflict, mostly out of revenge, but also to save his people (the ancient elves that would be used as fodder for this war) and created the veil, sealing the Evanuris away from the Titans.
Regarding Solas:
We could safely assume that when Solas sundered the world from the Fade when he created the veil, lots of "spirits in physical bodies" stayed in the world, which would explain why he sees people in the world as "Tranquil". I think he doesn't literally mean that they lost their connection to the Fade, but their connection to the Fade was diminished so much that they were not whole. We know that most races dream, and when they dream, they connect to the Fade. From what we know of the Fade, when they dream they see mostly what they want to see (although not always the case). The Golden City could be just that, a dream from those seperated from the old time of the ancient elves when they were at their most glorious, their Golden Age.
So that would place the Evanuris and the Forgotten ones in their respective places in the history, with the current lore that we have now, and it would match with all the lore we got so far. It would also give us a time of events for future speculation of what may have really happened in history, because what we knew before the last part of DA:I and Trespasser is very different than what we know now. This would also lead up to the lore we have on what happened to the elves after the veil was created.
We know that some elves that survived after the creation of the veil, with enough insight to change the stories around from Fen'Harel being a savior to being a trickster and a betrayer. If that was the case, what was there to stop them from continuing their "God's" feuds from before the world was sundered? We knew that the Evanuris wasn't all happy family with each other and often fight amongst themselves. What is also to say that there may have been two entirely different groups of surviving elves as well. Ones that held on to their knowledge of what had happened, and one that didn't know exactly what had happened. We have the group of elves that remembers the Evanuris as the old "Gods" and strived to reach that which they had lost (or honor what they had lost) which eventually became the Dalish. Then we have another group that may have consisted of elves and slaves that may have instead focused on making the most of the world they have now and cut some of their ties with the old life, thus they created an empire to establish order. This empire would be... the Tevinter Imperium.
This next part may be a bit off topic, but would relate to the legacy of what occured.
The old Tevinter empire was built on the same structure that was used by the ancient elves. The magisters were actually servants or high ranking members of their "Gods". Over time the names of these gods changed (as things are wont to do over time) into the names of the Old Gods we know today. This could happen for any number of reasons, such as language changing or distancing themselves from the hubris of the Evanuris.
Over time, the Tevinter empire lost their identity of coming from an elf society (possibly due to the mixture of elves and slaves, this is unclear because we have no idea what races were around when) and started resembling what we know about them today.
The magisters whom were magical still retained a strong connection to the Fade and kept seeing the Golden City in their dreams, a dream of what was in the past. Having forgotten of how the world was before the creation of the veil and the split between the Fade and the world. Maybe they had an idea of what had happened, maybe they didn't. What matters is they attempted to enter the Fade through a massive blood magic ritual.
The ritual blood magic used to enter the Fade had some terrible consequences. In fact, I think that in order to amass enough magical energy to use that ritual required more than just blood magic, I think it required a massive amount of lyrium as well... such as a direct source... say, like a Titan. So the Tevinter magisters performed blood magic with a massive amount of pure lyrium to enter the Fade. This corrupted the Titan and all the slaves that were being used for this ritual, creating the Blight.
So in essence, everything that Solas is trying to accomplish by bringing back his friends, is also an atonement for everything that was caused as a result of his actions by creating the veil and splitting the Fade from the world. I think, to Solas, that the resulting world was a much harsher place than when he came from.
Edit: Oooooh, I just had another thought regarding spirits and the Titans and the Evanuris.
What if the reasons the Evanuris went to war with each other was to amass more "slaves"? Spirits that were trapped in a physical "shell" through lyrium and "demense"? That would give proper reasoning to why the other Evanuris were so mad at Mythal for saying they shouldn't go after the other Titans. She was effectively saying "stop trying to get more slaves".
Woah this is a uh .... huuuuge list of theories to sort out all at once.
I'm going to try and pinpoint the aspects I found most interesting.
The Titans Being Corrupted Caused The Blight
Now, this goes against my theory of "The Forgotten Ones" causing the blight, since I consider The Forgotten Ones to be powerful Elvhen spirits (similar to The Forbidden Ones, except more elf centric). Since in the wiki and most codexes they are explained as "elven" gods, just like the Creators, who actually turned out to be elves, I feel like we can assume to a certain extent that they were more elven in nature, if less than the Creators.
Maybe give me some proof for your theory. It sounds interesting and I could definitely be wrong.
Elves After the Veil Collapsed made Tevinter
I honestly can't see how this would have worked. Elves are extremely different from humans, evolutionally, spiritually, physically, and in basically every way. The Tevinter Emperium was an Empire that already existed before the ultimate fall of the last remnants of the Ancient Elves. Tevinter came in, already an established Empire, and wiped the last of them out after the veil was created and the elves were weakened. It goes against all the lore and timelines I've heard that the elves made Tevinter, when it was Tevinter that wiped the last of them out and enslaved them the first chance they got.
The Golden City
Now this is a great theory and something I've been actually thinking about myself. Though there doesn't seem to be enough evidence to really prove it wrong or right, it just makes sense conceptually that the Golden City, like the crossroads, could have been a sanctuary created by the elves in an "in-between" place in the fade.
When the gang goes to the fade in inquisition, if you take Solas with you he says something around the lines of "Ah, the black city, right over there" or whatever. I can't think of it on the top of my head, but he basically says it's real and can be visually seen from where they were.
Why would Solas know it was a real place? That's awfully suspicious.
The more I think about it, the more I think it was an elven construction, and was already corrupted due to the presence of the veil when Corypheus tried to break in.
A good thing to wonder is how The Forgotten Ones play into this. Were they locked away in the Black City, and that's why Corypheus and the other migisters unleashed the blight when they breached it? Is the Black City the abyss?
I think it's talking about the unchanging world as the world outside of the fade. "The pull of the earth fiercely resists" might be like seekers "reinforcing reality", making magic more difficult to manifest. Does "the earth" in that context relate to the stone? Not sure.
Yes. It's obvious. Demesne means domain by the way. The elves marred upon the Titans because they wanted control of the whole earth. Lyrium is called "the Void" because it resists the magic of the Fade, ie to the Spirit-like elves, it's like space "there's only emptiness there".
Of course, killing all the Titans would likely mean saying goodbye to the whole world. The Titans are what is keeping it unchanging and solid.
Woah this is a uh .... huuuuge list of theories to sort out all at once.
I'm going to try and pinpoint the aspects I found most interesting.
The Titans Being Corrupted Caused The Blight
Now, this goes against my theory of "The Forgotten Ones" causing the blight, since I consider The Forgotten Ones to be powerful Elvhen spirits (similar to The Forbidden Ones, except more elf centric). Since in the wiki and most codexes they are explained as "elven" gods, just like the Creators, who actually turned out to be elves, I feel like we can assume to a certain extent that they were more elven in nature, if less than the Creators.
Maybe give me some proof for your theory. It sounds interesting and I could definitely be wrong.
Elves After the Veil Collapsed made Tevinter
I honestly can't see how this would have worked. Elves are extremely different from humans, evolutionally, spiritually, physically, and in basically every way. The Tevinter Emperium was an Empire that already existed before the ultimate fall of the last remnants of the Ancient Elves. Tevinter came in, already an established Empire, and wiped the last of them out after the veil was created and the elves were weakened. It goes against all the lore and timelines I've heard that the elves made Tevinter, when it was Tevinter that wiped the last of them out and enslaved them the first chance they got.
The Golden City
Now this is a great theory and something I've been actually thinking about myself. Though there doesn't seem to be enough evidence to really prove it wrong or right, it just makes sense conceptually that the Golden City, like the crossroads, could have been a sanctuary created by the elves in an "in-between" place in the fade.
When the gang goes to the fade in inquisition, if you take Solas with you he says something around the lines of "Ah, the black city, right over there" or whatever. I can't think of it on the top of my head, but he basically says it's real and can be visually seen from where they were.
Why would Solas know it was a real place? That's awfully suspicious.
The more I think about it, the more I think it was an elven construction, and was already corrupted due to the presence of the veil when Corypheus tried to break in.
A good thing to wonder is how The Forgotten Ones play into this. Were they locked away in the Black City, and that's why Corypheus and the other migisters unleashed the blight when they breached it? Is the Black City the abyss?
Dang, you really made me think.
Good stuff this is, good stuff.
Nothing in the lore specifically states that the Forgotten Ones are actually spirits. The best thing we have is that they were worshipped like the gods, even for a time after the creation of the Veil. The biggest thing is, they dwelled in the Void, where only Andruil was said to enter willingly. Most of the stories we see about them are most likely second, third or even generational anecdotes that probably changed over time. I would not think it so weird that certain beings that rivalled in power to the most powerful beings the ancient elves knew would be thought of along the same lines as the "Gods" even if there is no immediate evidence of their actual being.
We know that when humans procreate with an elf, the resulting child is human so that takes care of the idea that an "elven" society could outlast integration with a human one. It would also explain the reasons why the Tevinter Altus try selective breeding to produce "pure" mages. It could very well be an idea of old to stop elves from "dying out" in the ruling class of Tevinter by only procreating with other elves. Tevinter humans just happened to pick up that philosophy. Regarding Tevinter taking over the elves, we know that the elves fought amongst themselves and effectively destroyed themselves. Abelas in the Temple of Mythal tells us this fact. The Tevinter Imperium didn't really conquer the Dalish, they literally just walked across the land claiming the remnants of what was left of the Dalish. Solas even exclaims that the foundations of the Tevinter Imperium was built upon the ruins of his people, of ancient elves. However, we do not have a timeframe of how much time passed between the creation of the Veil and the rise of the Tevinter Imperium outside of religious scripture... scripture we now know has been changed or perverted.
Yeah, there really isn't enough information regarding the Golden/Black City. I don't think we will get any more information until we get a setting inside Tevinter (which looks like that may happen). And there are a lot of gaps that need to be filled. Some things to consider are:
If the Forgotten Ones are indeed Titans, perhaps the use of lyrium allowed the magisters to "hear" the Titans. I think that would cause confusion into thinking they are being communicated with by their Gods. It could be that they did not fully understand what was happening and did their best to commune with them, which could have been misinterpreted and used to further their own agendas.
It could be the Golden City was a memory left behind in the Fade, or possibly, the Crossroads. OR, if could be that the information about the Golden City came from elves--whom we know see the Crossroads (and maybe the Fade?) in a completely different way than other races. Information from Trespasser specfically points this out to us if you play a Lavellan Inquisitor or bring Sera along. Extremely interesting, I think, since other races see muted and dull colors.
I don't think the Forgotten Ones were locked away inside the Fade. I really, really, really believe that the Blight was created by the ritual used to enter the Fade physically. I went back and read up on some of what we know about the attempt and it was stated that "hundreds of slaves" were used as well as "two-thirds of the lyrium" of entire Tevinter. We have no idea what type of results would be from blood magic on that scale, let alone the addition of a very unspecified amount of lyrium (and if the lyrium itself was the bulk of a Titan, then... well... dang).
The Tevinter Gods were considered to be dragons. Where is the link between the dragons and their Old Gods? Why are these Old Gods found hidden in the ground? Perhaps these dragons were remnants of the war waged by the Evanuris and the Titans that were trapped or sealed when Mythal and Fen'Harel did what the did? We know little about dragons, especially ancient dragons to make any good theories, but perhaps the ancient dragons were more intelligent than the ones we see today and the blight perverts any resentment they had towards the Evanuris? Perhaps these ancient dragons were spared the bulk of sundering that occurred when the Veil was created and still retain a strong link to the Fade?
There are still so many gaps and holes to fill, and even ones we have filled are often filled through, what appears to be, Chantry rhetoric.
Perhaps they created the dwarves as a slave race, genetically modified to mine lyrium underground. However, we do see in the Elven Thaig a lot of elven statues and monuments, but the actual architecture is what we think of as dwarven. This would imply that the dwarves had their own culture and society separate from the elves, but either joined them or were conquered. It is possible that modern dwarven architecture originally copied the ancient elves, but then we could expect it to be similar to the Temple of Mythal and other elven ruins, which it isn't.
The Forgotten Ones, imo, were the same as the Creators. Perhaps they were a different political faction similar to the different political factions in the Circles and in Tevinter. I believe that a civil war erupted between the factions and the Creators won. Solas mentions that it is difficult to actually destroy an Evanuris, which lead to the Forgotten Ones being locked away in the Void.
It is mentioned in several codex entries about Andruil that she hunted through the Void for the Forgotten Ones, and that it drove her mad. She even created armour made from the Void. It says that this brought plague and suffering to her lands, until Mythal defeated her by turning into a "great serpent" and stole her knowledge of the Void. This sounds remarkably like the effect that red lyrium has, and the "plague" is the Taint. My theory is that the Void is actually underground, either the Deep Roads or the Uncharted Abyss where the Titans are. Meaning... that the Forgotten Ones are sealed in the Deep Roads.
Also worth mentioning, the Ancient Elves could take the form of dragons, though this was reserved for their leaders. If the Forgotten Ones were also Ancient Elves, they could have taken the form of dragons as well. Which powerful god-dragons do we know that are sealed within the Deep Roads? The Old Gods. Ala Forgotten Ones = Old Gods.
I don't know about the Old Gods that are now Archdemons being the Old Gods of ancient Tevinter. For one, the whispers came from the Fade, which is where the Evanuris are sealed. A codex entry in DA:O (I think) mentions an elven belief that the gods are trapped in the "Eternal City at the heart of the Beyond", aka the Black City. What if it was the Evanuris calling out to Tevinter dreamers, trying to convince them to break open the City so they can escape?
The Forbidden Ones were most likely powerful spirits that refused to help the Creators in a war, perhaps trying to stay neutral in the civil war, and were banished to the Fade. This led to them being corrupted into demons.
A lot of this is loose theory, there are several holes in it that I don't know the answer to. I do think that the Forgotten Ones may be the Old Gods, but then why would they be worshipped and recognised by Ancient Tevinter if it was the Evanuris calling from the Black City? Bring on DA4 please
Morroian, myahele, kimgoold et 1 autre aiment ceci
There was something in the DAO Dalish origin where they commented it was strange to find an elven statue in the underground temple location... Maybe another clue to support this topic?
This was a fantastic read. I am dying to read Part 6 not gonna lie. Thanks to all the theories people came up about the Elvhen and Solas by the time Trespasser came I was happy to realize people were right on a lot of them. This should keep us busy for a while. It is going to be a long wait.
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