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Dragon Age Elvhen Lore: What the Hell?!?! (POST TRESPASSER/SPOILERS)


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#76
MayriyaNoori

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I posted this over in the Solas thread, but I felt it was relevant here also.

 

Spoiler

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#77
XMissWooX

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Probably horribly wrong as I'm no expert on lore, but I thought I'd throw it out there...

I was replaying the Fade section of DAI earlier and it seemed to say that Corypheus and the magisters physically entered the Fade via mass sacrifice of Elves, since apparently Elves are linked to the fade and so their blood holds power.

Given that 1) Solas is amassing a large force of Elves from all over Thedas and 2) he doesn't seem to consider modern Elves to be among 'his people', do you think it's possible that he might try to use a similar method to tear down the Veil?
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#78
Steelcan

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Probably horribly wrong as I'm no expert on lore, but I thought I'd throw it out there...

I was replaying the Fade section of DAI earlier and it seemed to say that Corypheus and the magisters physically entered the Fade via mass sacrifice of Elves, since apparently Elves are linked to the fade and so their blood holds power.

Given that 1) Solas is amassing a large force of Elves from all over Thedas and 2) he doesn't seem to consider modern Elves to be among 'his people', do you think it's possible that he might try to use a similar method to tear down the Veil?

the Magisters used elven slaves because blood has power regardless of race and slaves are cheap, they also used tons of lyrium

 

Solas seems very against the use of blood magic as is though, so I doubt that'd be his approach, though without his orb no clue what he plans to do to break down the Veil.



#79
XMissWooX

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the Magisters used elven slaves because blood has power regardless of race and slaves are cheap, they also used tons of lyrium


I was referring mostly the codex entry for the Claws of Dumat:
"Master - now Corypheus - told me that my people, the elves of old, were tied to the Fade, and that in order to carry out the will of Dumat, he would need to call upon the magic that lives in our blood."
It just seems like Elven blood was chosen for a specific reason.
 

Solas seems very against the use of blood magic as is though, so I doubt that'd be his approach, though without his orb no clue what he plans to do to break down the Veil.


Whenever I've breached the topic of blood magic with Solas, he's seemed rather indifferent to it. He says he regards it as a tool, just like any other magic. Given that he's already prepared to destroy Thedas to rebirth his people, using blood magic and sacrifice as means of fuelling his plan is just another step on the path to insanity.

I guess I'm really just asking myself why Solas has thousands of Elves flocking to his side if he doesn't see them as worth saving.
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#80
myahele

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I like how he says he has "plans" for when the Evanuris will get out ... but those plans are pretty much 1000+ years outdated.

 

While he slept for that long and only been awake for ~3 years what are his plans? These Evanuris (and Forgotten Ones) been stuck in the Fade trying to get out for the same amount of time. They've been planning/scheming for far longer than he's been awake. Who's to say that one or more of them have settled their difference and are working towards a goal?

 

Maybe they're the ones who whispered to the Magisters to enter the Black City? The Old Gods went silent long before the Magisters even thought that plan. Additionally, it was a voice (not specifically Dumat and others) that whispered to Corypheus.

 

The founding members of the inquisition are still around, same with Well of Sorrows. Tevinter reverse-engineered many Elvhen artifacts and can at least recreate a rudimentary version of it especially with the inquisitions help.

 

Who knows who the next protagonist might be, but I wont be too surprised if the next protagonist will be given "godlike" powers/ get the assistance of one of the Evanuris/Forgotten ones


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#81
Sable Rhapsody

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the Magisters used elven slaves because blood has power regardless of race and slaves are cheap, they also used tons of lyrium
 
Solas seems very against the use of blood magic as is though, so I doubt that'd be his approach, though without his orb no clue what he plans to do to break down the Veil.

 
Solas doesn't personally use blood magic because it messes with his ability to do his Fade dreamer thing.  But he has no general qualms about its use.  Merrill in DA2 says that in the absence of large quantities of lyrium, you need another power source.  Solas had another power source in the orb, but quizzy and Cory f***ed that up for him.  Which pretty much leaves blood magic.
 
I don't think he's above sacrificing people, but I think he's actually more likely to be gearing up for sacrificing himself.  In Trespasser he says that the path he walks ends only in death.
 

I like how he says he has "plans" for when the Evanuris will get out ... but those plans are pretty much 1000+ years outdated.
 
While he slept for that long and only been awake for ~3 years what are his plans? These Evanuris (and Forgotten Ones) been stuck in the Fade trying to get out for the same amount of time. They've been planning/scheming for far longer than he's been awake. Who's to say that one or more of them have settled their difference and are working towards a goal?
 
Maybe they're the ones who whispered to the Magisters to enter the Black City? The Old Gods went silent long before the Magisters even thought that plan. Additionally, it was a voice (not specifically Dumat and others) that whispered to Corypheus.


I'm like 99% sure that the Old Gods and the Evanuris are one and the same. The timeline in WoT 1 lines up, though that should be taken with a grain of salt. Which means that they've already made one significant (albeit unsuccessful) attempt to free themselves from Fen'Harel's prison while he's been snoozing.  You're absolutely right: I can't imagine they've been just sitting with their thumbs up their butts since the First Blight.


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#82
LatteRene

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I had always assumed vallaslin were used to compel obedience. What if they instead prevented elves from leaving the physical realm? We know Solas created the Veil and can remove vallaslin - what if the Veil was the equivalent of a large scale vallaslin- effectively blocking all living beings from the Fade?

#83
midnight tea

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edit: ah damnit, wrong thread



#84
Cz-99

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I was referring mostly the codex entry for the Claws of Dumat:
"Master - now Corypheus - told me that my people, the elves of old, were tied to the Fade, and that in order to carry out the will of Dumat, he would need to call upon the magic that lives in our blood."
It just seems like Elven blood was chosen for a specific reason.
 

Whenever I've breached the topic of blood magic with Solas, he's seemed rather indifferent to it. He says he regards it as a tool, just like any other magic. Given that he's already prepared to destroy Thedas to rebirth his people, using blood magic and sacrifice as means of fuelling his plan is just another step on the path to insanity.

I guess I'm really just asking myself why Solas has thousands of Elves flocking to his side if he doesn't see them as worth saving.

 

Exactly what I was wondering. But considering he killed Felassan - who was supposedly his friend, I don't doubt that he'd use modern day elves (who he doesn't care about and probably even dislikes) to enter the Fade and what-not. He'd probably just use his "I feel bad but I haz to do this" attitude and spiel to try and justify it.


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#85
TheEggCrusher

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There was something in the DAO Dalish origin where they commented it was strange to find an elven statue in the underground temple location... Maybe another clue to support this topic?

could you be more specific? what was the location? 



#86
TheEggCrusher

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I like how he says he has "plans" for when the Evanuris will get out ... but those plans are pretty much 1000+ years outdated.

 

While he slept for that long and only been awake for ~3 years what are his plans? These Evanuris (and Forgotten Ones) been stuck in the Fade trying to get out for the same amount of time. They've been planning/scheming for far longer than he's been awake. Who's to say that one or more of them have settled their difference and are working towards a goal?

 

Maybe they're the ones who whispered to the Magisters to enter the Black City? The Old Gods went silent long before the Magisters even thought that plan. Additionally, it was a voice (not specifically Dumat and others) that whispered to Corypheus.

 

The founding members of the inquisition are still around, same with Well of Sorrows. Tevinter reverse-engineered many Elvhen artifacts and can at least recreate a rudimentary version of it especially with the inquisitions help.

 

Who knows who the next protagonist might be, but I wont be too surprised if the next protagonist will be given "godlike" powers/ get the assistance of one of the Evanuris/Forgotten ones

this sounds so cool. I would really like to play as a protagonist that could rival Solas in power. 

 

It also sounds really plausible, since the stakes have gotten much more high, now that we know we are dealing with an elvhen "god." that's beyond corypheus. We're going to need a character with some serious powers. it would be suitable if their special game-changing ability was related the the Evanuris/Forgotton ones, since they seem to be huge recourses of power. 



#87
TheEggCrusher

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Probably horribly wrong as I'm no expert on lore, but I thought I'd throw it out there...

I was replaying the Fade section of DAI earlier and it seemed to say that Corypheus and the magisters physically entered the Fade via mass sacrifice of Elves, since apparently Elves are linked to the fade and so their blood holds power.

Given that 1) Solas is amassing a large force of Elves from all over Thedas and 2) he doesn't seem to consider modern Elves to be among 'his people', do you think it's possible that he might try to use a similar method to tear down the Veil?

I think it is important to understand Solas' strange way of thinking. 

 

He has his own set of morals, corrupted and hypocritical, but he still has them.

 

If there is any other way to accomplish opening up the veil without blood magic, which there most likely is considering all his knowledge and resources available to him, then he would go with that. If there weren't, then he would use blood magic, since the "ends always justify the means" as long as the goal is "important" enough. 

 

He wouldn't sacrifice regular modern elves, however. he is all about choices and free-will. He'd probably amass a devoted following and have them sacrifice themselves by their own choosing. 



#88
TheEggCrusher

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I posted this over in the Solas thread, but I felt it was relevant here also.

 

Spoiler

your idea that Solas plans to kill the Evanuris in the resulting catastrophe of the veil being collapsed seems very likely. 

 

That's why he might be so negative on the survivability of the modern Thedosians, since the result of bringing up the veil could be catastrophic, not only for the natural world order, but in actual, physical disasters. 

 

Extremely interesting. 

 

I don't know much about the other stuff, but I definitely consider everything plausible :)



#89
Sable Rhapsody

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He wouldn't sacrifice regular modern elves, however. he is all about choices and free-will. He'd probably amass a devoted following and have them sacrifice themselves by their own choosing. 

 

Which is IMO even more horrifying.  He'd basically be playing on their desperate situation and (general) selflessness toward other elves to do his dirty work.  If anything could get my Lavellan to 100% turn on his, it might be that.  It would be brainwashing, no better than the Qun that he professes to hate, or the Evanuris.


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#90
TheEggCrusher

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Which is IMO even more horrifying.  He'd basically be playing on their desperate situation and (general) selflessness toward other elves to do his dirty work.  If anything could get my Lavellan to 100% turn on his, it might be that.  It would be brainwashing, no better than the Qun that he professes to hate, or the Evanuris.

I agree with you, though he wouldn't. 

 

What comes first in his mind are his goals, and this mindset effects how he interprets the rest of the world.

 

Here's a line from Hawke in Inquisition that I believe applies well to this: "Everyone has a story they tell themselves to justify bad decisions ... and it never matters. In the end, you are always alone in your actions."

 

In a way, I believe Solas has brainwashed himself so he could deal with the guilt of what he believes must be done. 

 

He's super messed up, but still understandable. 


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#91
myahele

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Solas says that he wants as much peace in the world before he destroys it.

 

With Cory dead and the Qun threat gone Thedas can have "peace" and be busy with rebuilding and the hope that brings people.

 

The elves can then proceed to have hope in joining Fen'harel, not knowing that they'll also die. Fen'harel is offering them peace and sanctuary from the humans .

 

In a way it reminds me of euthanizing a beloved dog: making them as comfortable in their final days before they're killed. Or that scene in "Of mice and Men" but more wide-scale ...... or when people were lead into a "shower room" by the Nazis



#92
Sable Rhapsody

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In a way it reminds me of euthanizing a beloved dog: making them as comfortable in their final days before they're killed. Or that scene in "Of mice and Men" but more wide-scale ...... or when people were lead into a "shower room" by the Nazis

 

Weekes, man.  Getting me to feel feels for a guy who's basically planning genocide  :blink:


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#93
Pexxithan

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I'd like to point out that it's not the use of Blood Magic that Solas hates. He see's it as a tool. What he would hate is the use of an unwilling sacrifice. So those who willingly sacrifice themselves for the spell, he would see it as another tool.

 

 

I had always assumed vallaslin were used to compel obedience. What if they instead prevented elves from leaving the physical realm? We know Solas created the Veil and can remove vallaslin - what if the Veil was the equivalent of a large scale vallaslin- effectively blocking all living beings from the Fade?

 

Since the vallaslin came before the creation of the Veil, I don't think this is correct, but you may be on the right track with the purpose. It may not be there to compel obedience (if that was the case, then the escaped slaves wouldn't be able to even make their way to Fen'Harel's sanctuary), but it could possibly be there to keep them in physical form AND to denote which Evanuris they belong to.

 

 

On another note, I was thinking about elves and lyrium and was trying to find the connection with the two. One of my earlier theories started suggesting that the Evanuris used lyrium to bind spirits to the physical world and I think that may actually be the case. I kept thinking about why the Evanuris would need lyrium for their magic and the answer was: they wouldn't. What purpose would that serve? We know that the Evanuris were already magically powerful and that there were not many out there that could rival their power. So why would they wage war against the Titans if they wanted the lyrium? Because lyrium reinforces things to make them more "real". (In fact, this is where I think the writers made an ingenious revelation: Even with using lyrium, all magic is blood magic. Because lyrium is the BLOOD of a Titan. That fact alone would shake the foundations of Thedas.)

 

So, what use would the Evanuris have for lyrium? To bind spirits to their physical bodies so they could be used as slaves. These physical bodies would, of course, be weaker than the Evanuris so that they may be controlled more easily. These physical bodies could also shaped in any way their creator wanted, thus the creation of the races. That would solidify why the Evanuris wanted the Titans and why Solas is so vehemently for freedom.


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#94
LatteRene

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I wasn't entirely coherent with my point about a connection between vallaslin and the Veil. My thoughts are as follows:
1. Vallaslin were used to mark ownership and keep elves in physical form.
2. Solas figures out how to remove them thus allowing slaves to once again have dual physical/spirit forms.
3. In figuring out how to remove vallaslin, Solas also learned a great deal about how to separate physical/ spirit forms.
4. Continued misbehavior by the evanuris push him to a breaking point. Using what he learned by studying vallaslin, he made the Veil.

Edit - can't find the codex I was looking for about lyrium being a component in vallaslin ink. If that is the case, that could explain the Evanuris' need for so much of the stuff.
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#95
Feral'Hen

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I think you guys got some things wrong: 
 
The Evanuris "sleep, masked in a mirror, hiding, hurting", as Cole said. They are not plotting against the Dread Wolf. They are not the Old Gods either. In fact, it looks like the Evanuris inadvertently breached one of their prisons when they were mining lyrium from titan corpses:
 
"A new vision appears: Elves collapsing caverns, sealing the Deep Roads with stone and magic. Terror, heart-pounding, ice-cold, as the last of the spells is cast.
 
A voice whispers:
 
What the Evanuris in their greed could unleash would end us all. Let this place be forgotten. Let no one wake its anger. The people must rise before their false gods destroy them all." - Codex entry (DA:I, Trespasser)
 
There are also many dialogues and codex entries (some of them are 7 years old) hinting at Old Gods being trapped in the Stone (capital S). Here are some examples:
- (About the Grey Wardens) "Grey like the stone. Guardians against the darkness." - Ruck (DA: Origins)
- "The Stone bears a corruption as old as balance." - Codex entry: The Gangue Shade (DA: Origins)
-  "Gangue carved into walls. Could be translated from Old Dwarven as Stone waste or Impure spirit-of-the-stone. Dwarven superstition, saw demons as impure spirits of rock?" - Codex entry: Demons of the Stone (DA:I, The Descent)
- "The demons who would be gods, began to whisper to men from their tombs within the earth." - Theonides 5 (Chant of Light)
 
It looks like Fen'harel feared that the Evanuris would awaken something terrible (Old Gods) if they continued with their prospections:
- "He broke the dreams to stop the old dreams from waking. The wolf chews its leg off to escape the trap." Cole (DA:I, Trespasser)
 
And perhaps they already woke up:
"And those who slept, the ancient ones, awoke,
For their dreams had been devoured
By a demon that prowled the Fade
As a wolf hunts a herd of deer." - Exaltations 1:7 (Chant of Light)
 
"We are here
We have waited
We have slept
We are sundered
We are crippled
We are polluted
We endure
We wait
We have found the dreams again
We will awaken" - Whispers Written in Red Lyrium (DA: Inquisition)

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#96
azarhal

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could you be more specific? what was the location? 

 

He's talking about the Brecillian Forest Elven ruins in the Dalish Origin where your Dalish companion says that Elves didn't live in buildings nor lived underground, both things have been proved to be false though. That ruins also had a stone carving where the elves meet with Dwarves for trading until something unknown happened. There is another Brecillian Forest ruin later in the game, where it shows that humans and elves lived together a long time ago too.


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#97
Roamingmachine

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I think you guys got some things wrong: 
*snip*


I think you are right on many things. Though personally I don't think what the elven gods stumbled upon underground was not the Tevinter gods, whom I believe were the same kind of beings as the elven gods. No, I think what they found down there was something much more terrifying. Something that can corrupt both body and soul and HATES the life that has sprouted on the material plane. I think they found the first physical manifestation of the true source of the blight.
Here's how I imagine this scenario unfolding:
The elven lyrium mining operations breach wherever the entity was sleeping. The core of the world, perhaps? Bad things happen, but the elven gods manage to contain the situation and NOPE out of digging deeper. This is a significant thing because the elven gods are both ridiculously powerful and have never been forced to retreat before.
With the situation contained, life goes on. Untill Andruil somehow gets corrupted in the Void and has her identity devoured. And she brings a "plague" to her lands. Uh-oh. Mythal eventually stops and contains her, but it's now apparent that the thing below isn't just below. Where other life exists in the material and the fade, this entity reaches out from the void itself.
Things happen, the Veil is lifted and it cripples the entity. Along with the entire Elvhen race.
Then comes Tevinter and their gods to investigate just what the bloody hell happened but find only confusion and ruins. They conquer what little remains and settle there. Fast forward a bit and Dumat, the eldest of the Tevinter gods, dreams...And the rest is history.
There is also something in the beings that became the gods of the material plane, something in their essence, that the entity hungers above all. Or something he hates above all.

That's my take on it anyway.
Ia! Ia! Cthulu f'tang! ;)
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#98
Sable Rhapsody

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Ia! Ia! Cthulu f'tang! ;)

 

Cthulhu fhtagn :D

 

Not that it really matters, our fleshy mortal mouths can't handle it anyway :P


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#99
stop_him

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Thank you for posting all of these theories. I very much enjoy your thoughts on the matter. I was wondering if you are going to make post about how ancient elves (Solas's people) are different from modern elves (Dalish and City elves). 

 

Modern elves still maintain a stronger connection to the Fade, and are more welcome in the Crossroads compared to the other races. And at times, both Solas and Flemeth refer to the elven inquisitor (and Sera) as being one of the People.

 

If modern elves are descended from ancient elves, how did they come to be different? Will the destruction the Veil restore what has been lost to them or will they just die? Why do modern elves still maintain their connection to the Fade if they're just like the shemlen now?


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#100
Feral'Hen

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I think you are right on many things. Though personally I don't think what the elven gods stumbled upon underground was not the Tevinter gods, whom I believe were the same kind of beings as the elven gods. No, I think what they found down there was something much more terrifying. Something that can corrupt both body and soul and HATES the life that has sprouted on the material plane. I think they found the first physical manifestation of the true source of the blight.
Here's how I imagine this scenario unfolding:
The elven lyrium mining operations breach wherever the entity was sleeping. The core of the world, perhaps? Bad things happen, but the elven gods manage to contain the situation and NOPE out of digging deeper. This is a significant thing because the elven gods are both ridiculously powerful and have never been forced to retreat before.
With the situation contained, life goes on. Untill Andruil somehow gets corrupted in the Void and has her identity devoured. And she brings a "plague" to her lands. Uh-oh. Mythal eventually stops and contains her, but it's now apparent that the thing below isn't just below. Where other life exists in the material and the fade, this entity reaches out from the void itself.
Things happen, the Veil is lifted and it cripples the entity. Along with the entire Elvhen race.
Then comes Tevinter and their gods to investigate just what the bloody hell happened but find only confusion and ruins. They conquer what little remains and settle there. Fast forward a bit and Dumat, the eldest of the Tevinter gods, dreams...And the rest is history.
There is also something in the beings that became the gods of the material plane, something in their essence, that the entity hungers above all. Or something he hates above all.

That's my take on it anyway.
Ia! Ia! Cthulu f'tang! ;)

That sounds plausible, mainly because the Old Gods began to whisper humanity from the Black City 50 years after the ancient elves started to notice the quickening (a side effect of the creation of the Veil). However, why would the Evanuris wait 1405 years to lure the magisters into the Black CIty? It makes no sense... unless the Old Gods needed all that time to fully corrupt the Evanuris trapped in the Black CIty.

 

EDIT: I just remembered some lines that might be key to understanding what the Old Gods and the Taint truly are:

It's widely believed that the Grim Anatomy's focus is on demonic possession, specifically how a demon, itself a tangible being, can enter into the mind of another and manipulate it. Here, the author observes the motor skills of a possessed wyvern. "It is not wearing the creature's skin", the notes read. "It has become the creature: its mind, its senses... its blood."

 

The last pages of the Grim Anatomy are largely unreadable, torn, and singed. It's as if someone attempted to destroy the book. What little can be made out speaks of rot and emptiness. The accompanying diagrams are bizarre, no longer resembling the physiology of any known animal, but instead a mess of overlapping and interconnected geometric shapes. - World of Thedas vol. 2