228 réponses à ce sujet

[Roamingmachine]

Thank you for posting all of these theories. I very much enjoy your thoughts on the matter. I was wondering if you are going to make post about how ancient elves (Solas's people) are different from modern elves (Dalish and City elves). 
 
Modern elves still maintain a stronger connection to the Fade, and are more welcome in the Crossroads compared to the other races. And at times, both Solas and Flemeth refer to the elven inquisitor (and Sera) as being one of the People.
 
If modern elves are descended from ancient elves, how did they come to be different? Will the destruction the Veil restore what has been lost to them or will they just die? Why do modern elves still maintain their connection to the Fade if they're just like the shemlen now?

My thoughts on the matter is that before the veil everyone was pretty much like Cole but even MORE "spirity". And that goes for all life. Somehow the elves retained a deeper connection to the fade, the reason perhaps being that maybe the way they entered the world was somehow different than how other spirits did it, and thus we have modern day elves But while they are more connected to the fade, i'm afraid that the shock would be even worse for the than other beings, to say nothing of shining like a beacon for every spirit out there.

[Roamingmachine]

That sounds plausible, mainly because the Old Gods began to whisper humanity from the Black City 50 years after the ancient elves started to notice the quickening (a side effect of the creation of the Veil). However, why would the Evanuris wait 1405 years to lure the magisters into the Black CIty? It makes no sense... unless the Old Gods needed all that time to fully corrupt the Evanuris trapped in the Black CIty.

It wasn't the Evanuris in my theory, but the 'entity' that had managed to break through to the golden city and corrupted it before the veil was brought up. In this scenario Fen'Harel locked the other gods away before to keep them from interfering before he lifted the veil in order stop the entity from entering the world further.

[stop_him]

My thoughts on the matter is that before the veil everyone was pretty much like Cole but even MORE "spirity". And that goes for all life. Somehow the elves retained a deeper connection to the fade, the reason perhaps being that maybe the way they entered the world was somehow different than how other spirits did it, and thus we have modern day elves But while they are more connected to the fade, i'm afraid that the shock would be even worse for the than other beings, to say nothing of shining like a beacon for every spirit out there.

So then... modern elves are elves, and Solas's people are spirits? The Evanuris created elves, perhaps? I wish the game had been more consistent with talking about elves as being of the People, or clearly not. With Solas, I can just write if off as him being a liar, except why would he bother Sera in banter, encouraging her to be more elfy? I can't really do the same with Mythal though. She straight up states you're one of the People with no contradictions. DA4 better make it all more clear cut. 

[Tanyara]

I'm thinking that the orb with the pointed symbol that's in the center of the Titan could be it's "core" or essence per se that the Evanuris took from their bodies. We know they killed (?) them, mined their bodies for lyrium and "something else" The something else might be what gave them their godhood and also what eventually awakened something Terrible?

 

Since the Stone is very real, surely killing off it's 1st children (Titans) will enrage the Stone. For one thing, once Valta reconnected to the Titan/Stone we learn that she seeks to reconnect with her children and from Cole we find out that Dwarves subconsciously want to reconnect with The Stone

 

 

Regarding the center of the Titan in the mural - it is pierced by some thing looking like a beam of light. Doesn't the codex mention Andruil making a terrifying weapon (spear I think?) made out of pure light or something like that?

[TheEggCrusher]

Thank you for posting all of these theories. I very much enjoy your thoughts on the matter. I was wondering if you are going to make post about how ancient elves (Solas's people) are different from modern elves (Dalish and City elves). 

 

Modern elves still maintain a stronger connection to the Fade, and are more welcome in the Crossroads compared to the other races. And at times, both Solas and Flemeth refer to the elven inquisitor (and Sera) as being one of the People.

 

If modern elves are descended from ancient elves, how did they come to be different? Will the destruction the Veil restore what has been lost to them or will they just die? Why do modern elves still maintain their connection to the Fade if they're just like the shemlen now?

Right now i'm working on: 

 

1) Solas

 

2) Forgotten Ones

 

3) What is the Veil 

 

I'll add on your point about the ancient and modern elves. it's a really interesting topic  

[TheEggCrusher]

So then... modern elves are elves, and Solas's people are spirits? The Evanuris created elves, perhaps? I wish the game had been more consistent with talking about elves as being of the People, or clearly not. With Solas, I can just write if off as him being a liar, except why would he bother Sera in banter, encouraging her to be more elfy? I can't really do the same with Mythal though. She straight up states you're one of the People with no contradictions. DA4 better make it all more clear cut. 

The fact that Flemeth calls an elven quissy one of The People has always been very interesting to me. 

 

The way I think of it is, she doesn't have the same prejudices as Solas and the other ancient elves. The One Blood is what Mythal is referred as. She is the mother of all and cares for all of The People. I think she sees the ancient blood in Lavellan, which is said to flow through their veins by Morrigan's child, and considers them as one of The People. She doesn't believe culture or magic makes an elf an elf. It's just simply what they are, and that is unchangeable. 

[myahele]

The fact that Flemeth calls an elven quissy one of The People has always been very interesting to me. 

 

They way I think of it is, she doesn't have the same prejudices as Solas and the other ancient elves. The One Blood is what Mythal is referred as. She is the mother of all and cares for all of The People. I think she sees the ancient blood in Lavellan, which is said to flow through their veins by Morrigan's child, and considers them as one of The People. She doesn't believe culture or magic makes an elf an elf. It's just simply what they are, and that is unchangeable. 

Yes, that's what I think too.

 

She also referred to Merrill as of The People and spoke about how "The People bend their knees too quickly." It might be due to the fact that she's been around for many centuries and helping those who know her as "Asha'Bellanar", but with a price

[Roamingmachine]

So then... modern elves are elves, and Solas's people are spirits? The Evanuris created elves, perhaps? I wish the game had been more consistent with talking about elves as being of the People, or clearly not. With Solas, I can just write if off as him being a liar, except why would he bother Sera in banter, encouraging her to be more elfy? I can't really do the same with Mythal though. She straight up states you're one of the People with no contradictions. DA4 better make it all more clear cut.

All life on Thedas began as spirits entering an unfamiliar "unchanging world" and forming vessels for themselves. Solas himself came to be this way, called in to the world by Mythal (Cole comment). The ancient Elvhen were indeed spirits that had taken physical form but after a time and especially after the veil had been raised things changed. The modern elves are direct descendants from the elvhen of old but they are more bound to the physical plane than their ancestors and have more in common with humans than them. In my mind Mythal sees, and has experienced, the evolution of her people awhile Fen'harel is stuck in the past and his own hubris in this matter. Hope this helps

[FernRain]

Regarding the center of the Titan in the mural - it is pierced by some thing looking like a beam of light. Doesn't the codex mention Andruil making a terrifying weapon (spear I think?) made out of pure light or something like that?

 

"She shook the radiance of the stars, divided them into grains of light, then stored them in a shaft of gold. Andruil, blood and force, save us from the time this weapon is thrown. Your people pray to You. Spare us the moment we become Your sacrifice."

There is a brief image of an elaborate golden spear, glowing with unbearable heat. Then it fades.

 

I want to understand this more..

• Shook the radiance of the stars,
• divided them into grains of light,
• stored them in a shaft of gold.

Apparently the "sun's lifeblood" became the stars, spilled in the battle between Elgar'nan and the sun.

 

And astrariums (devices for looking at the stars) are relics from a Tevinter (Old God?) cult that wanted to return to a time where dreamers ruled.

[CottonMacabre]

Great OP! really useful information and theories!

 

However im pretty sure it was Andruil who made the first Halla?, not Ghilan'nain. Andruil saved her when she was lost by turning her into a "deer" which she then named Halla, helping her find her way back home.

[FernRain]

I updated the pic of Cole's comments in the second post. All but the top one are about the Stone it seems.

 

The one about "ancient shapers" is interesting. And the "bodies from the earth".

 

 

 

And what do you make of the new bard song about the Elves?

Spoiler

mercy for the elves
who guard their lives with faith
our hands do weigh them down
but their kind hearts will forgive the weight

Arlathan fell
so deep onto the ocean floor
currents of hate
will so challenge their fate

mercy for the elves
who marched with us through fire
stood with Andraste
as she rose against the empire

can we pay the cost
for the allies we have lost in fear
our hands of pain
will so threaten their name

if we climb through our doubt
we can sympathize
when the slightest unite
then a giant will rise

slightest unite
then a giant will rise

mercy for the elves
who wander through the night
dalish father roams
will the dalish son survive the fight?

how can we deny
what their number can supply the realm?

slightest unite
then a giant will rise

when the slightest unite
then a giant will rise

[Absafraginlootly]

Great OP! really useful information and theories!

 

However im pretty sure it was Andruil who made the first Halla?, not Ghilan'nain. Andruil saved her when she was lost by turning her into a "deer" which she then named Halla, helping her find her way back home.

 

We have two conflicting versions of Ghilan'nain becoming a god. 

 

The one your referring to from the dalish:

 

They say Ghilan'nain was one of the People, in the days before Arlathan, and the chosen of Andruil the Huntress. She was very beautiful—with hair of snowy white—and as graceful as a gazelle. She kept always to Andruil's Ways, and Andruil favored her above all others.

 

One day, while hunting in the forest, Ghilan'nain came across a hunter she did not know. At his feet lay a hawk, shot through the heart by an arrow. Ghilan'nain was filled with rage, for the hawk—along with the hare—is an animal much beloved of Andruil. Ghilan'nain demanded that the hunter make an offering to Andruil, in exchange for taking the life of one of her creatures. The hunter refused, and Ghilan'nain called upon the goddess to curse him, so that he could never again hunt and kill a living creature.

Ghilan'nain's curse took hold, and the hunter found that he was unable to hunt. His prey would dart out of sight and his arrows would fly astray. His friends and family began to mock him for his impotence, for what use is a hunter who cannot hunt? Ashamed, the hunter swore he would find Ghilan'nain and repay her for what she had done to him.

 

He found Ghilan'nain while she was out on a hunt with her sisters, and lured her away from them with lies and false words. He told Ghilan'nain that he had learned his lesson and begged her to come with him, so she could teach him to make a proper offering to Andruil. Moved by his plea, Ghilan'nain followed the hunter, and when they were away from all of her sisters, the hunter turned on Ghilan'nain. He blinded her first, and then bound her as one would bind a kill fresh from the hunt. But because he was cursed, the hunter could not kill her. Instead he left her for dead in the forest.

 

And Ghilan'nain prayed to the gods for help. She prayed to Elgar'nan for vengeance, to Mother Mythal to protect her, but above all she prayed to Andruil. Andruil sent her hares to Ghilan'nain and they chewed through the ropes that bound her, but Ghilan'nain was still wounded and blind, and could not find her way home. So Andruil turned her into a beautiful white deer—the first halla. And Ghilan'nain found her way back to her sisters, and led them to the hunter, who was brought to justice.

 

And since that day, the halla have guided the People, and have never led us astray, for they listen to the voice of Ghilan'nain.

 

--From "The Tale of Ghilan'nain," as told by Gisharel, keeper of the Ralaferin clan of the Dalish elves.

 

 

And the one from the temple of mythal which tells a story of a poweful being who created many creatures (including the halla) and monsters who were so fierce that she was offered a position amoungst the Evanuris, "godhood", as incentive to destroy them.

 

 

 

Ghilan'nain kept herself apart from the People. She used her power to create animals none had ever seen. The skies teemed with her monsters, the land with her beasts. Andruil hunted them all, and after a year of killing, approached Ghilan'nain with an offer: the gods would share their power with Ghilan'nain, but only if she destroyed her creations, for they were too untamed to remain among the People. Ghilan'nain agreed and asked for three days to undo what she had made.

 

On the first day she struck down the monsters of the air, except those she presented to Andruil as a gift.

 

On the second day she drowned the giants of the sea, except those in deep waters, for they were too well-wrought, and Pride stopped her hand.

 

On the third day she killed the beasts of the land, except the halla, whose grace she loved above all else.

 

This is how Ghilan'nain was made youngest of the gods.

 

—Story of the elven god Ghilan'nain, author unknown

 

 

 

I think that an original mural from the time when the Evanuris reigned is probably closer to the truth than the pieced together Dalish story. Though still probably not 100% accurate since it is, after all, god propaganda.

 

The fact that Andruil, presumably with the agreement of rest of them, would offer something as vaunted as Evanuris membership at all speaks to how powerful Ghilan'nain and her creations must have been.

[stop_him]

Right now i'm working on: 

 

1) Solas

 

2) Forgotten Ones

 

3) What is the Veil 

 

I'll add on your point about the ancient and modern elves. it's a really interesting topic

Thank you.   Maybe you could include your theories why Solas will only engage in romance with an elf...seeing as how elves are more like shemlen than true elves. Why shouldn't Solas be attracted to a human if an elf=human in his eyes anyway?

[Aulis Vaara]

All life on Thedas began as spirits entering an unfamiliar "unchanging world" and forming vessels for themselves. Solas himself came to be this way, called in to the world by Mythal (Cole comment). The ancient Elvhen were indeed spirits that had taken physical form but after a time and especially after the veil had been raised things changed. The modern elves are direct descendants from the elvhen of old but they are more bound to the physical plane than their ancestors and have more in common with humans than them. In my mind Mythal sees, and has experienced, the evolution of her people awhile Fen'harel is stuck in the past and his own hubris in this matter. Hope this helps

It should also be noted that a solid form was indeed important to the old elves, to the point of banishing those who gave up their form.

[Roamingmachine]

It should also be noted that a solid form was indeed important to the old elves, to the point of banishing those who gave up their form.

The forgotten ones got banished for abandoning their posts and fleeing deep in to the fade when the Elvhen were engaged in a war of some kind. So giving up a physical form wasn't the issue there, but desertion. But they certainly did convey some importance to form, as dragons for one were reserved for the gods and their chosen.

[Tanyara]

I want to understand this more..

• Shook the radiance of the stars,
• divided them into grains of light,
• stored them in a shaft of gold.

Apparently the "sun's lifeblood" became the stars, spilled in the battle between Elgar'nan and the sun.

 

And astrariums (devices for looking at the stars) are relics from a Tevinter (Old God?) cult that wanted to return to a time where dreamers ruled.

That lyrium well (with the coffins around it) also has a suspicious likeness to the titan mural - like somebody built a lyrium well over a titans heart *hmm*

[ModernAcademic]

Now we know why Morrigan and Flemeth say that magic is dying or disappearing from the world. The Veil is responsible. It seems the more time passes, the least magic passes from the Fade to the waking world...to the point where all magic can actually disappear? Because if so, then it explains Solas' urgency in destroying the Veil.

 

Should magic die, won't it also affect the elves somehow? Maybe the old blood depends on magic. MAybe that's why their lives are shortening. There might be a time limit on the People which only Solas is aware of. Hence his desperation.

 

Also, remember Sandal's strange prophecy? I believe there's no doubt that The One That Will Rise For All To See is Solas, who will bring magic back into the world. And that his prophecy also refers to the Apocalypse of Thedas, and not necessarily to a future full of hope. It will be a golden dawn for the few followers of Solas, who'll survive the great destruction.

 

No wonder Morrigan escaped to the Crossroads through the Eluvian...while keeping the truth from the Warden, the Inquisitor and leaving them to perish in a doomed world.

[Tielis]

About Andruil and Sera -- I know, this is an old old theory that was pretty much completely debunked.

 

But, as in my sig, the male elf inquisitors look horribly malnourished/immature compared to Solas.  We now know that that was apparently a design decision based on the fact that modern elves are "incomplete".  (Horrible design decision, in my opinion, but it is what it is.)  So... Sera's model is the female counterpart of Solas', and she can wear only "human-trained" armor.

 

I'm beginning to think that this "Abyss" that we've all heard about is nothing but the physical world, and the "Forgotten Ones" are elves that chose to be more physical than spirit.  And the "corruption" that Andruil became infected with is pretty much becoming more human than elven.

 

So maybe after the Veil went up, she went a bit nuts because she lost her magic, but then she found out what Solas wants to do, and became Sera, the huntress hunting the wolf for the "Forgotten Ones" in the best camouflage ever.

 

*puts on her tinfoil hat and sits in the corner*

[dennyjj88]

What is it that the ancient elves stumbled on while harvesting lyrium? If these events caused the blights which I've seen suggested, is there another ancient evil that's more ancient and powerful than the old gods or the elvhen gods?

[Absafraginlootly]

About Andruil and Sera -- I know, this is an old old theory that was pretty much completely debunked.

 

But, as in my sig, the male elf inquisitors look horribly malnourished/immature compared to Solas.  We now know that that was apparently a design decision based on the fact that modern elves are "incomplete".  (Horrible design decision, in my opinion, but it is what it is.)  So... Sera's model is the female counterpart of Solas', and she can wear only "human-trained" armor.

 

I'm beginning to think that this "Abyss" that we've all heard about is nothing but the physical world, and the "Forgotten Ones" are elves that chose to be more physical than spirit.  And the "corruption" that Andruil became infected with is pretty much becoming more human than elven.

 

So maybe after the Veil went up, she went a bit nuts because she lost her magic, but then she found out what Solas wants to do, and became Sera, the huntress hunting the wolf for the "Forgotten Ones" in the best camouflage ever.

 

*puts on her tinfoil hat and sits in the corner*

 

I feel like if Sera is Andruil she probably doesn't know she is.

 

I could really get behind a new protagonist getting a mission to find and wake up Andruil to stop Fen'harel, sent by one of Evanuris who can't enter the world, but found a way to communicate with it. Like Sylaise (her sister, and goddess of fire, childbirth, herbalist) or Ghilan'nain (Andruil referred to in all her codices, probably responsible for creating many of the creatures on thedas), I have trouble believing that either of these two would be okay with wiping out the remaining population of Thedas.

[kimgoold]

I'm Curious as to the possibility of the Avvar Gods being the Forgotten Ones as many of their legends seem to refer to or align with the Evanuris, The Lady of the Skies in particular with Andruil. And the codex found in the Astrarium cache referring to a forgotten Evanuris  or Forgotten One? (JoH dlc)

Personally I think the blight/ taint was a by-product of destroying a Titan,( a biological weapon?)  and Red Lyrium as we now know is tainted Lyrium or Titans blood.

[Feral'Hen]

Personally I think the blight/ taint was a by-product of destroying a Titan,( a biological weapon?)  and Red Lyrium as we now know is tainted Lyrium or Titans blood.

Avernus said once: 

 

"I am starting to hear things, even while awake: A voice--more beautiful than any other--that calls to me from the depths. In my dreams, I see the Black City, and I am drawn towards it. There is something there, an answer to what this taint is, this taint that we share with the darkspawn..." 

 

Corypheus later confirmed that he willingly contracted the Taint in the Black CIty:

 

"Did the others never return from the Black City? There is no record even of our names! We are vilified by legend. They spit on our deeds and claim we brought darkness into the world. We discovered the darkness. We claimed it as our own, let it permeate our being. If the others have not returned, they are lost. I am alone in my glory." 

 

This is what makes me think that the Old Gods were, and still are, trapped in the Stone. The Evanuris just breached their prisons and, most probably, polluted themselves with red lyrium. 

[myahele]

There's no written evidence of this -yet- but could the Evanuris have sealed Elgar'nan? Based on what we know, he's quite a terrifying person and everyone feared him. He's associated with Darkness, sun, destruction of world and his Vallaslin is a entangling vines.

 

My thinking is that with Elgar'nan sealed, the rest of the Evanuris then murdered Mythal and with the 2 strongest Evanuris gone they went all out.With war and their own propaganda/legends up until the Solas created the veil. Unless Mythal did not want to risk Elgar'nan from destroying everything, she called for help from the other gods with defeating Falon'din, who also did not have a good relationship with Elgar'nan

 

For one thing, the Song of Sylaise talks about how her temples are more beautiful than Mythal's and how her fire is hotter than Elgar'nan's .... based on what we knew of Elgar'nan that's probably something you don't say or write lightly unless there was no fear of repercussion.

 

Afterall, there's no mention of Mythal's murder outside of her priests and Elgar'nan seems to be the last resort for Mythal

[azarhal]

I feel like if Sera is Andruil she probably doesn't know she is.

 

I could really get behind a new protagonist getting a mission to find and wake up Andruil to stop Fen'harel, sent by one of Evanuris who can't enter the world, but found a way to communicate with it. Like Sylaise (her sister, and goddess of fire, childbirth, herbalist) or Ghilan'nain (Andruil referred to in all her codices, probably responsible for creating many of the creatures on thedas), I have trouble believing that either of these two would be okay with wiping out the remaining population of Thedas.

 

Ghilan'nain apparently stayed apart form the People before Andruil recruited her and writing in Mythal's temple says she urged someone (who was serving another god) to take the forbidden shape of the gods. Sounds like trouble to me.

 

Sylaise might not be Andruil's sister, that's Dalish's interpretation and we know how accurate those are. Also, everyone knows that the "nicest ones" are always the most evil.

 

Saying all that, how would Andruil be around if Solas imprisoned all the Evanuris and he hates all of them for Mythal's murder?

[Tielis]

Saying all that, how would Andruil be around if Solas imprisoned all the Evanuris and he hates all of them for Mythal's murder?

 

I don't know exactly how, but the first thought that comes to mind is that she was born with the spirit like Kieran was.