I can see Ghilan'nain be somewhat disillusioned with the Evanuris since she's the youngest and was just a regular person prior to her ascension. Especially since she finds out what their "godhood" was, what they did in the past and that their "divine forms" can easily be achieved by skilled enough individuals.
Maybe it was her form of rebellion against them? That had things been differently, she probably be with the People fighting against the Evanuris, but such power got to her.
Be really nice if this whole Sera=Andruil thing would just go and die in a fire already. What is with Sera people any ways, a bad case of Solas envy? You don't see the Blackwall crowd starting conspiracies about how he is true Queen of Antiva to explain why he has the hots for Josie.
Be really nice if this whole Sera=Andruil thing would just go and die in a fire already. What is with Sera people any ways, a bad case of Solas envy? You don't see the Blackwall crowd starting conspiracies about how he is true Queen of Antiva to explain why he has the hots for Josie.
If your here to debate a theory/idea, or to provide arguments for or against something, or just plain express what you don't like, by all means do so. But please refrain from putting down posters who don't agree with you or like something you don't.
And some of Spirit Cole's comments (last one is from Descent)..
Spoiler.
"His friend had to die because he thought they were people, a slow arrow breaks in the sad wolf's jaw."
(Felessan had to die because he thought modern Elves like Briala were people and he wanted Solas to give them a chance. Felessan was regrettably killed by Solas, who was already resolute in his "mission". The end justifies the means and his mistake must be undone).
"He broke the dreams to stop the old dreams from waking, the wolf chews his leg off to escape the trap."
Solas sundered The very fabric of his World by creating the veil to stop something worse from happening, perhaps imprisoning the Evanuris was done for more than their rule of Tyranny (and the murder of Mythal) but also to stop them from unleashing or creating the blight, perhaps a response from The Forgotten Ones against whom they fought, or perhaps changing/infecting Titans, whom we know were mined for lyrium by the Elvhen people with Mythal's blessing. Solas did say that if he didn't imprison the Evanuris they "Would have destroyed the entire world"
We also know the Evanuris did something else to the Titans, or rather commanded their followers to do something to them, which caused the Elvhen people, Aeons later, to bury their mine with stone and magic after "runes crackled as if filled with an angry energy" and were extremely fearful of what they had wrought. A voice whispers:
"What the Evanuris in their greed could unleash would end us all, let this place be forgotten. Let no one wake its anger. The people must rise before their false gods destroy them all." Solas was able to avoid the consequences of his actions, the "trap" (creating the veil and imprisoning his kin) by sacrificing a part of himself. This is either a reference to his people (the Elvhen culture) or to his power, perhaps also someone he loved (not necessarily romantic) like Mythal.
The spirits have fled, flying, fluttering, fast to the farthest fade. They're afraid of the veil tearing again.
Most likely a reference to the breach. The spirits no longer are intrinsically connected to the physical world, as they were before the veil. As we've seen with Cole, being as he is while entering in The Fade physically came as a shock to him. Nothing felt right and everything felt uneasy, as if he didn't belong. Similarly I believe spirits who were pulled by the breach experienced the equivalent of what we know as "psychological and emotional trauma". They were being forced into a world they did not understand, much like when they are summoned and bound by mages and forcefully twisted into demons. This led them to extreme actions, seeking the polar opposite to what they had experienced, which was the deepest parts of The Fade in order to feel secure and out of reach from such an event.
Bare-faced but free, frolicking, fighting, fierce. He wants to give wisdom, not orders.
An Elvhen released from his bonds. He is not used to freedom, nor is he used to being without standing. I believe he was a priest. Bare-face but free suggests his Vallaslin gave him a sense of importance, maybe it showed position, unlike average slaves. the fact that he wants to give wisdom is what makes me feel it suggests he was a either a priest or High Keeper. He is now fighting with Fen'Harel rather than for a false god, once again in a position of standing, perhaps a general. Though he fights for what he believes to be right, he rather do as he did when he was enslaved. Teach rather than command.
He did not want a body but she asked him to come, he left a scar when he burned her off his face.
A spirit was called forth by one of the Pantheon to assume a physical shape. He was eventually bound to her but found a way to free himself. Leaving a scar either means he left a physical scar or an emotional one when he freed himself. Either pertaining to the god or to himself. Perhaps this "slave" or "priest" had a special place in the heart of whomever bound him, even if it was done against his will.
This goes everywhere, even places that aren't anymore.
Not sure where he is so I can't comment efficiently without context. I'm assuming it has to do with the eluvians and with the world that was before the veil. Could also be the deep roads in the same context. where everything was once connected.
Songs screaming far away. It wants to wake up but can't remember how. No one should be here.
Titans want to wake up but can't remember how, presumably because of the veil.
It's singing where no one can hear.
Either literally singing from a deep, forgotten/unreachable location or perhaps, the singing can only be heard if certain conditions are met.
Their ancient shapers were mountains drawn of all their wills, walking their memories into valleys of the world.
Given what Dagna described, i.e. "You know what I remembered ? Watching a shaperate carve the wall of memory. Except... big. Isn't that weird?"
We can assume shapers were different than normal dwarves. Special. Valta was said to be more connected to the stone than her kin. This is what drew her to the shaper position. It might have been an instinctive pull and the Titan chose her for this specific reason. drawn of all their wills is either referencing the Dwarves or the Titans. Walking their memories into valleys of the world seems to be literally terraforming the land while recording their memories. The "valleys" being the result of recorded memories. This could explain how the Elvhen Pantheon became aware of the Titans as well as their value due to Lyrium.
The Songs are old here. Sleeping sadness already forgotten. I can't help this hurt.
This could relate to the Old Dreams Cole is referencing up above. It could also be something different. Whatever they are, they sing of a time of loss and hurt.
Valta says that the song from blood of the Titan that flows through her fills the gap in the Dwarves' history. That she sees glimpses of the world that was, before everything changed and the Dwarven race broke in two. Something caused the Titans to fall, and the fate of her people fell with them. The Titan she is connected to Wants her to know, No, more than that. It wants her to understand. There is a loneliness to its song.
This I believe, as I've mentioned before, has to do with the creation of the veil and what enabled the Dwarves to experience individuality. I also believe that the veil is what made the Titans fall asleep and "forget" how to "awaken". The Elvhen pantheon and the Elvhen people also did something, more so than simply mining Titans for lyrium and hunting them. I think they experimented on them through magical means or twisted their nature. Perhaps they corrupted One or many Titans which led to Red Lyrium. The question is how and what does it have to do with the blight. It also is likely related to The Forgotten Ones.
They're all singing, coffers, coffins, corpses that aren't dead. A song crying out in the dark.
Again, Titans=corpses that aren't dead, they are asleep but it is almost comparable to them being "dead". Trapped like a coma victim. Coffers. They were mined by the Elvhen people. Coffers full of lyrium. coffins. Titans are huge complexes that probably also contain many dead Dwarves who were killed by the Elvhen people. It could also all pertain to darkspawn, who are effectively the walking dead, though I like my first interpretation better.
They made bodies from the earth, and the earth was afraid. It fought back, but they made it forget.
They made bodies from the earth. Probably the most interesting Cole quote to date for me. Who are they? My first bet is the Elvhen people. This goes back to what I was talking about. Our inquisitor says (when reading the Veilfire in the Deep Roads Codex in Trespasser) that the Elvhen people mined Titans for lyrium and, something else that he couldn't make out. I believe this is the something else. Bodies from the earth could simply mean mining lyrium but I think it's more literal. Perhaps as they bound spirits into physical beings (the same way I believe the Elvhen race formed itself) they tried to manipulate the stone into beings through magic. Maybe in a similar fashion that Titans created Dwarves before the veil. I'm also very curious about how The Forgotten Ones fit in with all of this. Were they as greedy as The Evanuris?
"What the Evanuris in their greed could unleash would end us all, let this place be forgotten. Let no one wake its anger. The people must rise before their false gods destroy them all."
This part of the codex seems to fit pretty well with what Cole is saying.
Making it forget however could imply that The Titans not remembering how to wake up happened before the veil was created, therefore the veil might not be the root cause for them falling asleep. It might just mean that they found a way to make them forget the events that transpired, perhaps killing the Shaperate before it could record events. Either way, extremely interesting.
It's singing. A they that's an it that's asleep, but still making music.
Again a reference to Titans. This mirrors well a quote from Dagna.
Inquisitor : What do you mean when you say "thought all the thoughts"?
Dagna : I don't know? As if, for a moment, I was around all my people. And my thought was all of theirs ? No, no, my thought was all of our thoughts. Like parts. Ugh, words are mush.
The difference is that the Titan is asleep as is the symbiotic relationship i.e. the intrinsic connection it shares with the Dwarves. The only thing it has left is the song, which subconsciously calls to the Dwarves. The "Stone Sense".
Thanks for sharing Fern. I only got two of the quotes you posted. So it's a really interesting read. I'll try to write down and compile all of my theories tomorrow. God it'll be long... but I have to write my thoughts down. So many things have been revealed in Trepasser, so much more questions to ponder. 
-biiiig snip-
Thanks for the analysis! Here's some more things about the Stone/Titans..
From the canticle of exaltations in WoT:
Seven times seventy men of stone immense rose up from the earth like sleepers walked at the dawn. Crossing the land with strides immeasurable, and in the hollows of their footprints paradise was tamped, indelible.
Song to Elgar'nan codex:
Elgar'nan, Wrath and Thunder,
Give us glory.
Give us victory, over the Earth that shakes our cities.
Strike the usurpers with your lightning.
Burn the ground under your gaze.
Bring Winged Death against those who throw down our work.
Elgar'nan, help us tame the land.
This notebook found in the deeproads:
To add to the Ghilan'nain conversation..
I'm sure there's something more to her relationship with Solas, he's holding her staff in his tarot:
On the second day she drowned the giants of the sea, except those in deep waters, for they were too well-wrought, and Pride stopped her hand.
Note the capital P in pride, as to denote a name. Solas means pride.
love this thread by the way!
...Anyway regarding Ghilan'nain and her creatures that took to the skies, I was wondering actually if they could possibly be Great Dragons. Yavana says that they existed before the creation of the Veil and all...not to mention Mythal, who was once respected(?) by the Evanuris has a dragon at her call which the Inquisitor can use. Anyway, Yavana says some interesting things:
I am wondering and still wondering if the Silent Grove is someplace where Mythal wanted to preserve the dragons of old as most of them were wiped out given that they could potentially be used to rival the Evanuris in terms of raw power, and given that Yavana has more insight in her mother than Morrigan, it makes would make sense to have someone she trusted guard them and try to preserve them.
Regarding the Fade though, Aurleian Titus says: 'The dreamers of old commanded the fade. The fade is magic. The fade is reality itself." which might imply that the Evanuris were also dreamers who could warp reality itself...? Solas does speaking of "collapsing the veil and bring the Fade here so (he) can casually reshape reality,"
Thanks for the analysis! Here's some more things about the Stone/Titans..
From the canticle of exaltations in WoT:
Song to Elgar'nan
Then there's the matter of her ascension:Note the capital P in pride, as to denote a name. Solas means pride.
Yeah I have them all I screenshot everything in my Trespasser playthrough as well as other important codices. Anything that will help me form a better picture from the frame of reference we have. As for Ghilan'nain. You do know that these codices are hers right?
Notice the last part
"Below the letters, possibly in lieu of a signature, is the stamp of a stylized Halla head."
Ghilan'nain was known to tamper and experiment with magic in order to create new species, such as this
I believe the "gods" inducted her in the pantheon because of her research and magical skills. I believe they wanted to use her either to bolster their forces and/or eliminate her from being a threat. By bringing her in their fold they could control her and use her pride and knowledge to their advantage. This way it was a win/win. They wouldn't have to risk their "armies" (slaves) against her monsters and they'd benefit in the long run.
She was pretty despicable. She cared nothing for her scientific subjects, she was only interested in results. Never mind "ethical research".
Notice the fourth attempt:
"Using up the last of the stock was well worth it, as I explained to it as a courtesy before final work began. Adjustments to the underlay were a great success, and will allow the recipe to be made with material taken from lesser animals, if the need arises."
I think she was explaining the process to the spirit/"greater" animal she used to make the armor (which was the "last of the stock" referenced for the enchantment) while it was still conscious before the "final work began".
The Fourth attempt is referencing "The Skin that Stalks" armor. The Final piece. When you wear the set you get "The taken Shape" ability, whatever that does. Anyways I believe the "taken shape" refers to how she used the spirit/animal to make the whole.
the fact that she says the underlay will allow the recipe to be made with lesser animals suggest whatever she used was her "finer creatures", whatever they were. Anyways I'm guessing they all were shaped with spirits, which is despicable in its own right.
You do know that these codices are hers right?
Ahh I thought it had something to do with her because of the stamp. In one of the rooms where you pick up a piece of the "taken shape" there is a statue to Ghilan'nain. That might even be the place where Cole says, "This goes everywhere. Even places that aren't anymore". In fact, I can just make out the statue in the background. There were also halla paintings on the walls in the prison room where you find the armor
Speaking of "taken shape", that sounds like what she told the Sinner to do. The idea of "taking a form" in general I mean, not that the "taken shape" armor we find in game is the same as the Sinners form "reserved for the gods".
Yeah, I always thought that Ghilan'nain was recruited precisely for that reason. Her creations proved useful for whatever war that might happen + it can be "mass produced"
I cant help but think that the image that I have as my profile pic is actually Elvhen slaves being used to create the "black halla" If you look closely blood is coming out of them and gathering on top of the creature
If your here to debate a theory/idea, or to provide arguments for or against something, or just plain express what you don't like, by all means do so. But please refrain from putting down posters who don't agree with you or like something you don't.
I second this.
To Egg Crusher::
Is it possible that Ghina'nain could be responsible for the creation of the Kossith ? They had to come from somewhere right and if once there was only Elves, then the Kossith must have come for somewhere. Or did Ghilan'nain simply got her hands on the Kossith and mutated them into the Qunari ?
I love it here.
There is this one thing that buggs me. While chasing what's-her'name Qunari woman we discover they use red lyrium. And Cole says something about red lyrium singing in unison with them. I cannot remember the exact phrasing, unfortunately. Isn't it starnge?
If your here to debate a theory/idea, or to provide arguments for or against something, or just plain express what you don't like, by all means do so. But please refrain from putting down posters who don't agree with you or like something you don't.
I second this.
Or not. Because the entire theory of Sera being an [even more super secret and doubly special] elven god[dess] basically rests on the idea that one of her tarot cards is a vulgar interpretation of Andruil's symbol. Given that, I have no reason to give it credence. The fact the entire idea originated with a dedicated (lesbian) Sera fan with what amounts to a case of (penis) Solas envy only serves to discredit it further.
Then again, given their previous track record, Bioware's would probably make it canon for that reason. See Krem is a real boy in Trespasser, despite it not truly being the case.
To Egg Crusher::
Is it possible that Ghina'nain could be responsible for the creation of the Kossith ? They had to come from somewhere right and if once there was only Elves, then the Kossith must have come for somewhere. Or did Ghilan'nain simply got her hands on the Kossith and mutated them into the Qunari ?
I believe that the Qunari are an offshoot of elves. Now, whether Ghilly made them, I'm not sure, but it would make almost too much sense. It would also be extremely terrifying. She seems to be the "experimental" type. I have no doubt she would want to make a dragon race, especially when the Elves seemed to respect dragons so deeply (Mythal).
I love it here.
There is this one thing that buggs me. While chasing what's-her'name Qunari woman we discover they use red lyrium. And Cole says something about red lyrium singing in unison with them. I cannot remember the exact phrasing, unfortunately. Isn't it starnge?
Very strange phrasing. I haven't heard that, I think, so I wouldn't know. I doubt the Qunari are directly connected to the blight or lyrium, however, so it probably has to do with either their dragon blood or the way they were able to safely excavate the lyrium (also possibly having to do with their dragon blood).
Now that I think about it, the blight is very connected to the archdemons, which are dragons. Do dragons have a specific affinity with the blight, lyrium, or the raw magic of both?
Or not. Because the entire theory of Sera being an [even more super secret and doubly special] elven god[dess] basically rests on the idea that one of her tarot cards is a vulgar interpretation of Andruil's symbol. Given that, I have no reason to give it credence. The fact the entire idea originated with a dedicated (lesbian) Sera fan with what amounts to a case of (penis) Solas envy only serves to discredit it further.
Then again, given their previous track record, Bioware's would probably make it canon for that reason. See Krem is a real boy in Trespasser, despite it not truly being the case.
Now, I don't agree with the Sera theory as well, but that doesn't mean I see no credit in it.
Please respect all opinions. I'll respect yours if you respect mine.
Now, I don't agree with the Sera theory as well, but that doesn't mean I see no credit in it.
Well, at least you're sane. That aside, maybe it's because I saw the early spawning of the theory on BSN. But, no I just can't ascribe any credit to it, because it was so transparently a reaction to the Solas/Flemeth ending I could never take it seriously.
Please respect all opinions. I'll respect yours if you respect mine.
No. Whilst I am willing to hear out differing opinions, respecting all of them is sheer folly. Do you respect someone who says the sky is red because that is their opinion? I don't think so. An opinion is only worth a damn if it can be coherently and sensibly represented/defended.
Well, at least you're sane. That aside, maybe it's because I saw the early spawning of the theory on BSN. But, no I just can't ascribe any credit to it, because it was so transparently a reaction to the Solas/Flemeth ending I could never take it seriously.
No. Whilst I am willing to hear out differing opinions, respecting all of them is sheer folly. Do you respect someone who says the sky is red because that is their opinion? I don't think so. An opinion is only worth a damn if it can be coherently and sensibly represented/defended.
As long as no one is offended, I'm fine with anything you want to say.
Just keep your comments friendly.
I believe that the Qunari are an offshoot of elves. Now, whether Ghilly made them, I'm not sure, but it would make almost too much sense. It would also be extremely terrifying. She seems to be the "experimental" type. I have no doubt she would want to make a dragon race, especially when the Elves seemed to respect dragons so deeply (Mythal).
Very strange phrasing. I haven't heard that, I think, so I wouldn't know. I doubt the Qunari are directly connected to the blight or lyrium, however, so it probably has to do with either their dragon blood or the way they were able to safely excavate the lyrium (also possibly having to do with their dragon blood).
Now that I think about it, the blight is very connected to the archdemons, which are dragons. Do dragons have a specific affinity with the blight, lyrium, or the raw magic of both?
Dragons have a natural resistance to the blight. They create cysts within their flesh to contain the taint, though obviously this ability is limited and they eventually succumb to it if they are exposed with too much too quickly (this is explained during a war table mission, where you choose Leliana for studying Dragons after recruiting the professor from he Western Approach).
As for how the Qunari mined lyrium, it was explained by the traitor. He said it killed them at first, but they're disciplined and learn from their mistakes (quickly).
He says "They're using Gaatlok--The explosive powder in the round casks--To mine, so they don't have to touch raw lyrium"
Dragons have a natural resistance to the blight. They create cysts within their flesh to contain the taint, though obviously this is limited and they eventually succumb to it (this is explained during a war table mission, where you choose Leliana for studying Dragons after recruiting the professor from he Western Approach).
As for how the Qunari mined lyrium, it was explained by the traitor. He said it killed them at first, but they're disciplined and learn from their mistakes (quickly).
He says "They're using Gaatlok--The explosive powder in the round casks--To mine, so they don't have to touch raw lyrium"
Hmm so the theory has more credit to it than I thought?
I feel like we would make a good team thinking about stuff lol
I'm not a big lore person (in terms of the specifics) and I tend to focus more on patterns and overall concepts.
Nonetheless, this is a fascinating theory.
Yeah, with Ghilan'nain I agree that it makes too much sense that she'd experimented with Elves.
They clearly had no qualms with blood magic sacrifice and dragon blood is VERY potent/special ... but also VERY sacred. She might've gotten permission to use 1 Dragon in her experiments and through it's blood she imbued her elvhen slaves with it. We know great dragon blood (Theirin line) remain potent no matter how diluted it gets.
I can see her create proto-kosith for the sole purpose of having slaves with dragon blood used for blood magic.
After the fall of the Elves, I can see these survivors to then breed with each other for desired traits which eventually gave us the modern Qunari. It might explain their fear of magic, maybe even their pointed ears.
*snip*
To add to the Ghilan'nain conversation..
I'm sure there's something more to her relationship with Solas, he's holding her staff in his tarot:SpoilerHe mentions when you enter her grove (which is a necropolis full of dead people) "It's quiet here. I like it". There is also a shrine to Fen'harel there.
Then there's the matter of her ascension:
On the second day she drowned the giants of the sea, except those in deep waters, for they were too well-wrought, and Pride stopped her hand.
Note the capital P in pride, as to denote a name. Solas means pride.
This is interesting because there is a wolf statue/fen'harel shrine in the Lost Temple of Dirthamen too, I wonder if after the veil was created some of the surviving elves put dread wolf statues in the various temples of the Evanuris.
Yeah, with Ghilan'nain I agree that it makes too much sense that she'd experimented with Elves.
They clearly had no qualms with blood magic sacrifice and dragon blood is VERY potent/special ... but also VERY sacred. She might've gotten permission to use 1 Dragon in her experiments and through it's blood she imbued her elvhen slaves with it. We know great dragon blood (Theirin line) remain potent no matter how diluted it gets.
I can see her create proto-kosith for the sole purpose of having slaves with dragon blood used for blood magic.
After the fall of the Elves, I can see these survivors to then breed with each other for desired traits which eventually gave us the modern Qunari. It might explain their fear of magic, maybe even their pointed ears.
This makes even more sense when you put it in the context of Solas' views on the Qunari (the religion and the race). He could see them as aberrations and the result gross experimentation and slavery. Could also explain why he's so rude to Adaar quissies.
Their need for perfection could also be explained in this way. Were the bred to desire perfection: the perfect mate, perfect life? Were they bred to be followers and obedient slaves under Ghilan'nain?
I can see all of this being very possible.
They made bodies from the earth, and the earth was afraid. It fought back, but they made it forget.
They made bodies from the earth. Probably the most interesting Cole quote to date for me. Who are they? My first bet is the Elvhen people. This goes back to what I was talking about. Our inquisitor says (when reading the Veilfire in the Deep Roads Codex in Trespasser) that the Elvhen people mined Titans for lyrium and, something else that he couldn't make out. I believe this is the something else. Bodies from the earth could simply mean mining lyrium but I think it's more literal. Perhaps as they bound spirits into physical beings (the same way I believe the Elvhen race formed itself) they tried to manipulate the stone into beings through magic. Maybe in a similar fashion that Titans created Dwarves before the veil. I'm also very curious about how The Forgotten Ones fit in with all of this. Were they as greedy as The Evanuris?
"What the Evanuris in their greed could unleash would end us all, let this place be forgotten. Let no one wake its anger. The people must rise before their false gods destroy them all."
This part of the codex seems to fit pretty well with what Cole is saying.
Making it forget however could imply that The Titans not remembering how to wake up happened before the veil was created, therefore the veil might not be the root cause for them falling asleep. It might just mean that they found a way to make them forget the events that transpired, perhaps killing the Shaperate before it could record events. Either way, extremely interesting.
Golems are bodies made out of the earth using lyrium to bound a spirit to stone, they were created using the Anvil of the Void. All that is missing is proof that Caridin didn't create the anvil and just found it (or found plans to recreate it).
Golems are bodies made out of the earth using lyrium to bound a spirit to stone, they were created using the Anvil of the Void. All that is missing is proof that Caridin didn't create the anvil and just found it (or found plans to recreate it).
Is it possible that the Anvil of the Void was where Andruil forged her armor and weapons which were made of the Void ? I mean the naming is too much of a coincidence. It could be that the Anvil had long existed since the time of the Titans but Andruil found it and either crafted the weapons and armor she needed herself or enlisted June's aid.
Later Caridin was shown the Anvil of the Void's location via dreams which I think, came from a Titan.
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