192 réponses à ce sujet

[von uber]

Tx you are completely ignoring the game. The catalysts only power is not enthrallment as I keep pointing out but you choose to ignore this!

Yes stories can change but there is changing a story and directly contradicting what has gone before.
It's like Aragorn in the third part of lotr taking the ring for himself and becoming a wise and benevolent ruler of a new golden age. It would completely contradict the previous two parts.

[Dantriges]

If the Catalyst dumps over established lore than who runs the Keepers in ME1? Something or someone has to run them.

Well and here we have the million dollar question that dumps established lore. If the catalyst is running the Keepers, why did Sovereign dryhump the tower, what did he need Saren for? What was the Catalyst doing while Sovereign was knocking on the door asking "Someone here? Boss? Could you please tell the Keepers to start the relay sequence?"

Hm let´s see:
 

You really can't establish lore truly through what characters say, but through plot action, because characters can be contradicted.

We saw Sovereign arriving at the Citadel and humping the tower to assume direct control. So it´s not just some character talking. We saw it, it´s part of the story. Did no one tell Sovereign that Reaper boss is residing there.

Overthinking too much?

Let´s look at what you said.

There is NO hacking, no indoctrination, no reprogramming, and the Crucible does nothing but provide the energy that the Citadel directs and amplifies.

Yeah it´s really just a crazy theory that an AI, that helps you destroy it, if you want to, even when it realizes that this is no solution for its purpose, is hacked or reprogrammed. But sorry I am overthinking.

But lets´s concentrate on the second part, "the Crucible does nothing but provide the energy that the Citadel directs and amplifies."

Hm ok. Contradicts what you said here:

Remember, the CRUCIBLE provides the choices, the solutions, not the Catalyst.

The power source provides the choices? It´s a power source. I thought the Citadel was the one which directs and amplifies? So what was the Catalyst actually needed for? It was a major plot point after all that the Crucible doesn´t work without it. The Citadel isn´t the Catalyst. The first thing you hear from starkid is "I am the Catalyst. Nope the Citadel is part of me."

It´s not it´s just his name. The AI is crucial for the proper functioning of the Crucible. It is part of the Crucible in some way. Was it just lying and the Citadel is the real catalyst? Ah no that would be overthinking. If the critics have to take everything at face value, same applies the other way round.

If we stop overthinking and follow your line of thought, the ending seems to be intended as the following one.
Shepard arrives at the butt end of the station in an elevator that brought him there because something felt like it, perhaps the thing that is nothing more than a power source. Ah no don´t think.
The "daft programme created by a giant squid creature"(your words) pops up, tells you his dumb reasons to wipe out organic life on a regular basis and then tells you how to operate the Crucible, because he is dumb but realized that he will lose the next cycle, no matter what. Seems that results in it being more than a bit suicidal.

Then after you were forced to listen to the dumbest thing in history, you proceed to do, what the stupid instruction manual told you to. This is:
1. Blow the thing up and its reaper thralls (and commit genocide if you think the Geth are people).
2. Be the guy who provides the thought patterns to the next guy on the idiot throne. And considering the EC content, Shep got eternal, immortal, and expanded his intellect...on the hardware the Catalyst ran on. Yes, sure.
3. Agree with the resident village idiot that going green is the answer to everything.

Oh and you are actually able to chose something else than synthesis because someone provided two raising walkways. Can´t be the Crucible, it´s just a power source, can´t be the catalyst because it can´t influence the Citadel. Perhaps some Keepers came along and thought it´s a neat idea.

So and listening to the village idiot and then act based on information it gave you, is a good ending how? Why do we need three different endings in that case? You can have a scene like the one in the reactor of Omega, Shepard pushing buttons and Petrovsky droning on about you being wrong. it wouldn´t be great but well, more clear.

 

But what about the conflict between synthetics and organics? Uh well what conflict? We resolved that one already, the only ones who said it´s always like this are the stupid, delusional squids and their daft program. Oh and Javik but ah well, I understand where he´s coming from.

[txgoldrush]

Tx you are completely ignoring the game. The catalysts only power is not enthrallment as I keep pointing out but you choose to ignore this!

Yes stories can change but there is changing a story and directly contradicting what has gone before.
It's like Aragorn in the third part of lotr taking the ring for himself and becoming a wise and benevolent ruler of a new golden age. It would completely contradict the previous two parts.

Prove it.

 

Of all the dialogue from the ending and Leviathan, it only has the power to enthrall, Pay attention to the narrative.

[Dantriges]

Well, is there some proof that it has the power of enthrallment? The only dudes we see mindcontrolling or indoctrinating are Reapers and Leviathans. Or is enthrallment just some kind of I am boss, you are not, do what I say.

 

Hm ok.

 

 

The Reapers seem to be AI built from an AI, programmed to follow a directive but not controlled completely by its creator.

 

So the Reapers seem to be AI, fine, so it can enthrall AI. Nice. What´s keeping it from installing an AI as the Citadel Master Control Unit and enthrall that?   The Citadel was built by the Reapers after all. Yeah everyone said it, everyone agreed on the intelligence built the mass relays and the Citadel, no one said something else and huh well the thing was the hub of the relay system. Even if we assume the Citadel was built by someone else, there were extensive modifications done by the Reapers like installing a mass relay to dark space. It had a billion years to instruct his thralls to build him a nice new thrall as the master of Citadel station. It can do like EDI and behave like a VI or monitor hidden in the background. It´s not like the button labeled "Darkspace relay" and the corresponding massive machinery needed to open  a relay tunnel was ever found by someone. <ok it doesn´t make much sense to have two AIs sitting in the hardware but if it can only enthrall and needs an other entity to do anything, well.

Is the hologram generator also a thrall? Or the mass effect field generator and the lifesupport unit that generated a breathable atmosphere outside for Shepard to walk into his/her salvation without doing this "killed by vacuum" thing. Or was it the Crucible? Ah no, it´s just a power source.

[txgoldrush]

Well and here we have the million dollar question that dumps established lore. If the catalyst is running the Keepers, why did Sovereign dryhump the tower, what did he need Saren for? What was the Catalyst doing while Sovereign was knocking on the door asking "Someone here? Boss? Could you please tell the Keepers to start the relay sequence?"

Hm let´s see:
 

We saw Sovereign arriving at the Citadel and humping the tower to assume direct control. So it´s not just some character talking. We saw it, it´s part of the story. Did no one tell Sovereign that Reaper boss is residing there.

Overthinking too much?

Let´s look at what you said.

Yeah it´s really just a crazy theory that an AI, that helps you destroy it, if you want to, even when it realizes that this is no solution for its purpose, is hacked or reprogrammed. But sorry I am overthinking.

But lets´s concentrate on the second part, "the Crucible does nothing but provide the energy that the Citadel directs and amplifies."

Hm ok. Contradicts what you said here:

The power source provides the choices? It´s a power source. I thought the Citadel was the one which directs and amplifies? So what was the Catalyst actually needed for? It was a major plot point after all that the Crucible doesn´t work without it. The Citadel isn´t the Catalyst. The first thing you hear from starkid is "I am the Catalyst. Nope the Citadel is part of me."

It´s not it´s just his name. The AI is crucial for the proper functioning of the Crucible. It is part of the Crucible in some way. Was it just lying and the Citadel is the real catalyst? Ah no that would be overthinking. If the critics have to take everything at face value, same applies the other way round.

If we stop overthinking and follow your line of thought, the ending seems to be intended as the following one.
Shepard arrives at the butt end of the station in an elevator that borught him there because something felt like it, perhaps the thing that is nothing more than a power source. Ah no don´t think.
The "daft programme created by a giant squid creature"(your words) pops up, tells you his dumb reasons to wipe out organic life on a regular basis and then stells you how to operate the Crucible because he is dumb but realized that he will lose the next cycle, no matter what. Seems that results in it being more than a bit suicidal.

Then after you were forced to listen to the dumbest thing in history, you proceed to do, what the stupid instruction manual told you to. This is:
1. Blow the thing up and its reaper thralls (and commit genocide if you think the Geth are people).
2. Be the guy who provides the thought patterns to the next guy on the idiot throne. And considering the EC content, Shep got eternal, immortal, and expanded his intellect...on the hardware the Catalyst ran on. Yes, sure.
3. Agree with the resident village idiot that going green is the answer to everything.

Oh and you are actually able to chose something else than synthesis because someone provided two raising walkways. Can´t be the Crucible, it´s just a power source, can´t be the catalyst because it can´t influence the Citadel. Perhaps some Keepers came along and thought it´s a neat idea.

So and listening to the village idiot and then act based on information it gave you, is a good ending how? Why do we need three different endings in that case? You can have a scene like the one in the reactor of Omega, Shepard pushing buttons and Petrovsky droning on about you being wrong. it wouldn´t be great but well, more clear.

 

But what about the conflict between synthetics and organics? Uh well what conflict? We resolved that one already, the only ones who said it´s always like this are the stupid, delusional squids and their daft program. Oh and Javik but ah well, I understand where he´s coming from.

You really do not get it. Lets go over some things.

 

Saren's job is to take the station from within, as well as finding the Conduit before that. Sovereign simply put, does not know of the master, implied by ME3. That's how the ending to ME1 works. There is no contradiction here. Once again, Bioware did not give The Catalyst any power other than its use of thralls in the narrative.

 

The nature of the Crucible contradicts nothing I said. You are simply not getting it. ALL THREE CHOICES USE THE ENERGY OF THE CRUCIBLE!!!!!! That is how it provides the choices. Pay attention to the dialogue of the Catalyst again, and not just the beginning part. What Vendetta thought what the Catalyst was, the Citadel and its capabilities, IS STILL IN PLAY. The Citadel was a necessary part of the process to direct the Crucible's energy, but its the Crucible that sets the whole thing up. And its definitely NOT the Starchild that is the source of these choices. On certain conditions it will tell you he is bound by the decisions the Crucible provides as you are.

 

What about the conflict between organics and synthetics? Well, thats not really the conflict of the ending, but the context. pay attention to the first post again. Its the SOLUTION thats really the problem, not the MOTIVE.

[Dantriges]

You really do not get it. Lets go over some things.

 

Saren's job is to take the station from within, as well as finding the Conduit before that. Sovereign simply put, does not know of the master, implied by ME3. That's how the ending to ME1 works. There is no contradiction here. Once again, Bioware did not give The Catalyst any power other than its use of thralls in the narrative.

 

No sorry, I don´t get it. Perhaps if someone would shoot me in the head or perform some nice lobotomy. 

 

So Bioware intentionally made villains that are so dumb, that the Three Stooges would look like genius intellects in comparison. And the ending is a brilliant masterpiece where Shepard the brick has a serious discussion with a person with the intellectual capability of a potted plant about the fate of the galaxy and that killing people is wrong.

 

I don´t know what´s worse, that the writers simply forgot that the Catalyst would contradict ME 1 or that they did it on purpose. Even if Sovereign doen´t know because of some insanity virus circulating through Reaper Net, the guiding intelligence should know. Even if it´s a blind and deaf cripple imprisoned within the Citadel only able to influence the physical world using its thralls, it still needs to have some means of communication and method of locating them (like this Reaper IFF thingie), when it wants to use his thralls. Besides the Keeper thralls being aware that indoctrinated people boarded.

 

 

The Catalyst was a necessary part of the process to direct the Crucible's energy, but its the Crucible that sets the whole thing up. And its definitely NOT the Starchild that is the source of these choices. On certain conditions it will tell you he is bound by the decisions the Crucible provides as you are.

 

But the Catalyst is not reprogrammed, right. It´s part of his core programming to direct quasi cosmic powers that can result in it being destroyed. Ah yes it helps you along, because it would be dead in 50k years anyways, as there is only the harvest unless the one which we know as Shepard will bring it salvation through destruction.

[txgoldrush]

No sorry, I don´t get it. Perhaps if someone would shoot me in the head or perform some nice lobotomy. 

 

So Bioware intentionally made villains that are so dumb, that the Three Stooges would look like genius intellects in comparison. And the ending is a brilliant masterpiece where Shepard the brick has a serious discussion with a person with the intellectual capability of a potted plant about the fate of the galaxy and that killing people is wrong.

 

I don´t know what´s worse, that the writers simply forgot that the Catalyst would contradict ME 1 or that they did it on purpose. Even if Sovereign doen´t know because of some insanity virus circulating through Reaper Net, the guiding intelligence should know. Even if it´s a blind and deaf cripple imprisoned within the Citadel only able to influence the physical world using its thralls, it still needs to have some means of communication and perception, when it wants to use his thralls. Besides the Keeper thralls being aware that indoctrinated people boarded.

 

 

But the Catalyst is not reprogrammed, right. It´s part of his core programming to direct quasi cosmic powers that can result in it being destroyed. Ah yes it helps you along, because it would be dead in 50k years anyways, as there is only the harvest unless the one which we know as Shepard will bring it salvation through destruction.

Then  I wouldn't have to hear your off point criticism, now would I.

 

Here you go again....adding to the story to criticize it with rambling to good measure.

 

You are doing what I am criticizing people for, hence this thread

[von uber]

Prove it.

 

Of all the dialogue from the ending and Leviathan, it only has the power to enthrall, Pay attention to the narrative.

 

Prove it? The catalyst Moves the lift. The Catalyst controls the decision chamber platforms. The Shepalyst controls the arms of the Citadel. I can keep repeating myself here if you want, but it is getting dull.

 

Face it. Bioware buggered up the entire plot for ME1. they also massively screwed over the Reapers, seemingly managing to make them really dull antagonists and fairly mundane. it's quite an impressive achievement from the horrifying first meeting with Sovereign.

 

I'm really happy that you find it an absolute masterclass, I really wish I did. I still really enjoy playing it though, it's just a shame that it could have been so much more.

[Reorte]

Whilst there are often some ridiculous ideas thrown around that are best forgotten "stop overthinking" is usually an attempt to shout down the results of doing any thinking at all.

[Dantriges]

Ok, Sovereign didn´t knew that his boss is in the Citadel, the Catalyst controls the Keepers but didn´t knew that Sovereign wants to start the harvest.

 

Being the vanguard of Ddestruction is a lonely job it seems. The Catalyst doesn´t tell you that the guys you signal to, are thralls under his control, Harbinger doesn´t tell you about the army behind the Omega 4 relay. Must be some kind of punishment duty.

 

And when the Crucible docks, the Catalyst realizes that his solution is no longer viable and tells Shepard his options and argues a bit about the barbarity of his methods. Then Shepard sacrifices himself to save the galaxy.

 

And this results in a good ending, everyone should be happy with?

[GalacticWolf5]

Just so you know, the Keepers aren't controlled by the Intelligence ever since the Protheans changed them back in their cycles. Usually, the Reaper Vanguard would send a signal to the Keepers and they would activate the Citadel Relay but, because the Protheans changed them so that they wouldn't respond to that signal, Sovereign had to manually open it.

[von uber]

 

Regarding the Keepers, why would the Catalyst (which can control parts of the station as noted above) rely on an organic species to operate the relay?

Maybe it's because when ME1 was written the Catalyst didn't exist, and when ME3 came around they completely ignored this fact?

[Dantriges]

Just so you know, the Keepers aren't controlled by the Intelligence ever since the Protheans changed them back in their cycles. Usually, the Reaper Vanguard would send a signal to the Keepers and they would activate the Citadel Relay but, because the Protheans changed them so that they wouldn't respond to that signal, Sovereign had to manually open it.

 

Do you mean me? Listening to the conversation with Vigil he says that the Keepers are controlled by the Citadel, every cycle a signal is sent throughout the station that compels them to open the relay and the scientists found a way to alter the signal. He didn´t mention the controlled by the citadel thing, he later says that the Keepers do not respond to the Reapers but evolved to only respond to the signals emitted by the Citadel itself. Well Vigil wasn´t there when the protheans swung the virtual crowbar but if he´s right, the Citadel still controls the Keepers, so if the catalyst didn´t lie or spouted some Obi-Wan truth, when it said, the Citadel is part of me, it still has them under control. Wouldn´t matter anyways, Saren wanted to hand the control over to Sovereign and Sovereign wanted to override the Citadel´s systems and manually open the relay.

 

And I just went with the flow anyways when Txgoldrush claimed that the Keepers are thralls of the Catalyst.

 

Must be some fun conversation during the networking if we follow some of the ideas people here came up with (like you totally need the Keepers to push buttons even if you are part of the computer system, these buttons belong to).

C: Stop forcing your fat fingers through the windows!

S: Boss, you here?

C: Did you miss the memo that I am living here.

S: Uh well, could you open the relay please. i want to manually open the relay and somehow I need to push a button for that. I don´t get my finger through the window.

C: Of course I cannot because we were such a bunch of idiots, when we devised this cunning trap, we totally forgot to connect the Catalyst AI core to the rest of the station and I need a Keeper to push the button because you need to push a button when a computer is supposed to do something. Also the Narrative only gave me the power of enthrallment.

S: This doesn´t make sense.

C: Says the guy who showed up with some robots and not our Collector thralls.

S: But these only show up in the next game, the power of the narrative hasn´t willed them into existence yet.

C: But I am here and I only show up in the third game!

PotN: Hi.

S&C: Who are you? PotN? The Prince of the Night? Did this game turn into some vampire novel?

PotN: I am The Power of the Narrative and I decree that the Catalyst doesn´t exist yet!

S: Oh, thanks, that dude was really crimping my style.

PotN: And now I decree that the feedback from your avatar will weaken of your shields, resulting in your destruction!

S: WHAT? How? Why? WTF!!!

PotN: You are overthinking! The story demands it! The Narrative is a cruel and fickle mistress and always makes sense if you stop thinking and appreciate the artistic mastery. And because you committed the heresy of thinking I declare you WRONG! And I am right because I wrote it in capital letters which proves my point somehow. Also I deployed my impenetrable shield of "You don´t get it."

 

Ah yes, it totally makes sense now.

[Obadiah]

I find the collective mind/being relationships in Mass Effect fascinating.

There are a few instances in order of intensity:

• The metaphorical relationship in Asari philosophy of all living beings in a collective whole espoused by Shiala
• Legion's description of the Normandy and its crew in ME2
• The mind melds that occur when Shepard and Liara they share their thoughts at London
• Leviathan and their thralls
• Cerberus scientists on the Derelict Reaper that share memories
• The Rachni and their children that "sing" to each other
• The Geth runtimes in the Geth Collective that form the Consensus
• The Thorian and the infected colonists of Zhu's Hope, their thoughts controlled by parasites from the Thorian
• The Geth runtimes on a platform that form a... what... rudimentary autonomous drone?
• The Catalyst's description of the Reapers' relationship to it - "The Citadel is part of me." "I control the Reapers." "I embody the collective intelligence of all Reapers." - indicating almost a being made up of the Reapers.

I suspect the Reaper husks and the process of indoctrination are other depictions of beings in collectives.

I think the game sort of demonstrated various versions of collectives throughout the trilogy just so the writers could play with the idea. I don't think it is a contradiction for the Reapers to each be individual entities but still be part of the collective whole of the Catalyst, in the same way that Legion is part of the Geth Consensus.

Modifié par Obadiah, 12 septembre 2015 - 12:49 .

[GalacticWolf5]

Do you mean me? Listening to the conversation with Vigil he says that the Keepers are controlled by the Citadel, every cycle a signal is sent throughout the station that compels them to open the relay and the scientists found a way to alter the signal. He didn´t mention the controlled by the citadel thing, he later says that the Keepers do not respond to the Reapers but evolved to only respond to the signals emitted by the Citadel itself. Well Vigil wasn´t there when the protheans swung the virtual crowbar but if he´s right, the Citadel still controls the Keepers, so if the catalyst didn´t lie or spouted some Obi-Wan truth, when it said, the Citadel is part of me, it still has them under control. Wouldn´t matter anyways, Saren wanted to hand the control over to Sovereign and Sovereign wanted to override the Citadel´s systems and manually open the relay.

 

The signal that makes the Keepers activate the Relay is sent by Sovereign to the Citadel, which in turn sends it to the Keepers. The Protheans changed the Keepers so that they would ignore this signal. Even if the Citadel does control them, they wont respond to that particular signal. The Keepers now only exist to maintain the Citadel.

[txgoldrush]

The signal that makes the Keepers activate the Relay is sent by Sovereign to the Citadel, which in turn sends it to the Keepers. The Protheans changed the Keepers so that they would ignore this signal. Even if the Citadel does control them, they wont respond to that particular signal. The Keepers now only exist to maintain the Citadel.

The Keepers still answer to "the Citadel", this is mentioned in ME1

 

From the wiki for Keepers:

 

"The Protheans succeeded in altering the Citadel's signal so that the keepers ignored it, though too late to save the Protheans themselves from extinction at the hands of the Reapers. The keepers have changed and evolved so they only respond to the Citadel itself; they are now no longer under Reaper control and pose no threat to anyone. "

 

Basically, they are no longer under Reaper control through the signal , but still could be under the Catalyst's. Its the signal from one thrall group to another that got cut. They are still shown harvesting humans in the ending.

 

What ME1 did not go into was HOW the Protheans achieved this, only that they did.

 

Prove it? The catalyst Moves the lift. The Catalyst controls the decision chamber platforms. The Shepalyst controls the arms of the Citadel. I can keep repeating myself here if you want, but it is getting dull.

 

Face it. Bioware buggered up the entire plot for ME1. they also massively screwed over the Reapers, seemingly managing to make them really dull antagonists and fairly mundane. it's quite an impressive achievement from the horrifying first meeting with Sovereign.

 

I'm really happy that you find it an absolute masterclass, I really wish I did. I still really enjoy playing it though, it's just a shame that it could have been so much more.

 

That's proof? It is so vague. How do you know its not doing it through the Keepers? Keepers that 10 minutes ago are shown harvesting humans. You don't know, its too vague. Proof has to be solid.

 

Well, for ME1, Bioware should not have relied on having a plot that is pushed by character conversation and not showing, just telling. I go on and on about this that this is one of Bioware's problems. And really ME1 is not a plot so much as it was characters interpreting a plot.

 

And sorry, but having antagonists born out of failures of others instead of some stupid chaotic evil is a far better fit for this series.

[angol fear]

I don´t know what´s worse, that the writers simply forgot that the Catalyst would contradict ME 1 or that they did it on purpose. 

 

Actually, the catalyst does not contradict ME1. It contradicts your representation of Mass Effect 1 and this contradiction comes from your representation of the catalyst. The game itself is open enough to create interpretation that do not oppose Mass Effect 1 and the ending. But if you interpret the catalyst as an "active" character (that he isn't), or if you take "control" in its popular representation, yes it will contradict Mass Effect 1. The problem is that the ending is paradoxical, and a paradox isn't a real contradiction. The ending of Mass Effect 3 was written to feel like a contradiction, but then to understand that there's no contradiction.

Did they do it on purpose? Yes but actually Bioware started a retroactive reading of Mass Effect 1 since Mass Effect 2 : Cerberus , the reapers and the geth, all of them will oblige you to rethink Mass Effect 1 because there's another representation of them (that can be contradiction, it depends on your interpretation of things).

[von uber]

That's proof? It is so vague. How do you know its not doing it through the Keepers? Keepers that 10 minutes ago are shown harvesting humans. You don't know, its too vague. Proof has to be solid.

Too vague? It's shown directly by the game.
Let's humour you though. The keepers did it as they are under the control of the catalyst, despite the prothean sabotage.
If this is the case, what was the point of me1? No need for sovereign or saren - the keepers are still under control.
More to the point what was the point of sovereign anyway? The catalyst through its control of the citadel would know exactly how organic civilisations are getting on.
In fact why didn't the catalyst monitor all communications from the citadel and basically scupper and plan the council races do at all to either investigate or resist the reapers?

Face it. It's a massive hole in the lore and entirely avoidable.

[Dantriges]

The signal that makes the Keepers activate the Relay is sent by Sovereign to the Citadel, which in turn sends it to the Keepers. The Protheans changed the Keepers so that they would ignore this signal. Even if the Citadel does control them, they wont respond to that particular signal. The Keepers now only exist to maintain the Citadel.

 
They altered the signal, not the Keepers. If the Keepers wouldn´t respond at all and are still crucial to operate the relay, Sovereign´s plan would have failed. it seems that the Keepers aren´t needed for the procedure if you get access to the station systems or that Sovereign could undo the modifications. The interesting thing with the introduction of our passive character is, that the Catalyst is sitting right there in the station systems or that it is the station systems. And that raises the interesting question why it couldn´t undo the changes or open the relay itself. Yeah, you can come up with explanations but Bioware exhausted my goodwill with too many open questions.
 

Actually, the catalyst does not contradict ME1. It contradicts your representation of Mass Effect 1 and this contradiction comes from your representation of the catalyst. The game itself is open enough to create interpretation that do not oppose Mass Effect 1 and the ending. But if you interpret the catalyst as an "active" character (that he isn't), or if you take "control" in its popular representation, yes it will contradict Mass Effect 1. The problem is that the ending is paradoxical, and a paradox isn't a real contradiction. The ending of Mass Effect 3 was written to feel like a contradiction, but then to understand that there's no contradiction.
Did they do it on purpose? Yes but actually Bioware started a retroactive reading of Mass Effect 1 since Mass Effect 2 : Cerberus , the reapers and the geth, all of them will oblige you to rethink Mass Effect 1 because there's another representation of them (that can be contradiction, it depends on your interpretation of things).

 
It comes from the rather simple desire not to answer the question why the Catalyst isn´t an active character with the reply "He isn´t an active character." And it would be nice to show that the writer had actually thought about it, by providing an explanation instead of shifting it to the customer. It can be that the customer finds a satisfying answer for himself, it could be that his explanation is "they forgot." And well it seems that most people stopped at the "feels like a contradiction" stage. So they didn´t get their "message" to the receiver. It could be the fault of the receiver but considering that the vast majority of your intended audience formed the consensus of "this is crap," instead of "ooh awesome," it´s rather likely that the sender is the problem.

[fraggle]

I also think the Catalyst is a passive character, here's why:

"I was first created to oversee the relations of synthetic and organic life."

It was created to be an observer of these two races, to gather data and to solve a problem. Which surely makes it "active" in some way, but overall it keeps its existence hidden, letting others take care of the tasks he cannot do (be it physically or for other reasons).

To me it seemed very much like an observer letting its minions handle everything.

 

As to contradicting ME1. Yeah, we know they hadn't thought out the Catalyst back then, but I also think it still can work in retrospect by interpreting certain things. One of our users here had the idea the Catalyst also needs to be dormant and that's the reason it did nothing.

I had the idea that the Catalyst didn't want to reveal itself at that point to help Sovereign because then people would've probably noticed something is going on with the Citadel (Vigil conversation: "The Reapers are careful to keep the greatest secrets of the Citadel hidden.").

I'm sure the Catalyst still believed in Sovereign's success to overwrite the changed signal and catch this cycle by surprise by letting the Reapers through right away. But Shepard prevented that. So it could've waited patiently until the time for the Reapers came.

Or you know. It simply couldn't do anything about the changed signal and needed outside help (something physical like Saren or Sovereign to manually open it).

 

And I'd like to think that it has a certain ability to control parts of the Citadel, but not everything. The Keepers also only maintain the station's most basic functions, so maybe the Catalyst just gave them basic tasks at first, including reacting to the signal, and they evolved from there, eventually resisting the indoctrination.

The platform I'm not sure about. Notice that Shepard already stands on it when he/she opens the arms of the Citadel. The arms which the Catalyst could've chosen to close again had it

a. been able to do that (implying it does not in fact control everything)

b. not truly believed that organics are too resourceful at this point (going with tx's interpretation)

 

So, while I think tx's interpretation does work very well here, I have a few things on my mind why I don't believe it entirely. Like the idea that organics have become too resourceful? That's hardly a reason to accept defeat imo, especially since the Reapers could never be beaten conventionally before. No one knows or can calculate at this point if the next cycle will get this far to actually find the Crucible plans again, and no one knows if the Reapers can't find and get rid of all the plans before they manage to do so. I'd like to think after underestimating organics that much, the Catalyst would make really sure next cycle to eradicate the plans. So if the Catalyst really has the power to just shut down the Crucible, or even to leave Shepard down there without raising the platform, I'd have done everything to prevent Shepard from using the Crucible if I were in its shoes.

But that's just me.

We will never have any concrete proof of anything, and if it were one "simple" explanation, there wouldn't be as much speculations around as there are. It's purposely ambiguous, and some people might perceive dialogue or actions much differently than others.

 

And on another note, while the Catalyst and Reapers do come across as stupid in our cycle, it worked perfectly before. Strike at the Citadel in a surprise attack, shatter everything, reap. Easy. They were just unlucky the Protheans managed to change the signal to prevent a surprise attack in our cycle. They just underestimated organics, like the Catalyst finally admits during the ending conversation.

The only real dumb party here is the Council imo. They are horrendously stupid.

 

What I also find interesting that some people saw Sovereign as this big threat in ME1, and I was just like... yeah, whatever, we'll get to you. He was not truly a threat to me back then. He's just a machine, and machines can be broken So it's a matter of taste what they did to the Reapers. I really liked something was behind them all. Something I would not even call a villain. Something that just did the wrong things for the (maybe) right reasons.

[Linkenski]

IT'ers and such are overthinking it, yes. But even though the ending is simple it ultimately seems forced and doesn't make enough sense, plus it retroactively (but unintentionally) breaks the logic of ME1's plot.

 

Implicitly the entire plot of ME3 breaks ME1 but it's not until the ending that it explicitly confirms that ME1's plot doesn't fit in with what happens in ME3. (namely The Reaper's strategy and plan to take the Citadel and cripple the galaxy and opening the arms, which for some reason the Catalyst can't do even though he "is part of the Citadel")

 

In a stretch I can honestly accept some of the stuff with the Catalyst himself, but the thing that ruins it for me from a logical and rational standpoint is Synthesis being impossible at least in how BIoware presented it through the dialogue.

 

Artistically I'm 100% against everything at the ending because thematically it just doesn't gel enough and doesn't conclude the trilogy with any substance -- you know this, I've said it a hundred times and I don't wanna sound like a broken record yet again.

 

EDIT:

@fraggleblabla: Soverign is a threat in the sense that if his plan was succesful he'd have begun the Reaper invasion we see in ME3 earlier... which is where ME2's plot problems come into fruition because it made the Galaxy remain unaware, thus there was basically no difference as to whether it was Sovereign who got the Reaper's back or if they just entered slowly by themselves.

 

But ME3 could've made it work if the Collector Base meant something. I sometimes wonder if the harshest ME2 critics like some in here and/or Smudboy's analysis videos made Bioware hesitate on integrating the Collector-base-choice properly in ME3.

 

Potentially some kind of reverse engineering on Collector tech could've led to more preparation against Reapers and the "war" would've actually seemed like war and not just slaughter or big feet steping on ants.

[fraggle]

@fraggleblabla: Soverign is a threat in the sense that if his plan was succesful he'd have begun the Reaper invasion we see in ME3 earlier... which is where ME2's plot problems come into fruition because it made the Galaxy remain unaware, thus there was basically no difference as to whether it was Sovereign who got the Reaper's back or if they just entered slowly by themselves.

 

But ME3 could've made it work if the Collector Base meant something. I sometimes wonder if the harshest ME2 critics like some in here and/or Smudboy's analysis videos made Bioware hesitate on integrating the Collector-base-choice properly in ME3.

 

Potentially some kind of reverse engineering on Collector tech could've led to more preparation against Reapers and the "war" would've actually seemed like war and not just slaughter or big feet steping on ants.

 

I get that, I was just really expecting what we got at the end of ME1, you know, being victorious against Sovereign and Saren. Your typical "hero" ending.

And yes, the galaxy remains unaware, which is my biggest gripe with the Council and their non-actions, or even the Alliance that did basically nothing.

I get the appeal of wanting to believe they're safe and denying the threat, but it was so in your face that I can just shake my head at them still denying it at that point.

 

A proper CB decision would've been great. It does have a bit of meaning with Low EMS, but that's about it. It could've had a lot more weight, that's true. It could've just involved even more different paths and variables, and they likely would've needed more time to do it properly or scrap other things. Who knows.

In the end we got what we got and while there are certainly things that could've been so much better, nothing is ever perfect.

[von uber]

@fraggle the big flaw in your idea is that the catalyst helping sovereign makes the cycle happen. Who cares if the organics suddenly realise there is something going on? The reapers will be here and it's game over.

[angol fear]

 So they didn´t get their "message" to the receiver. It could be the fault of the receiver but considering that the vast majority of your intended audience formed the consensus of "this is crap," instead of "ooh awesome," it´s rather likely that the sender is the problem.

 

The "vast majority"...there are two things in what you were saying : opinion and reception of a message.

First, about opinion : take a look at the reception of 2001, a space odyssey, blade runner and many more, you will see that the "vast majority" is wrong about what will become masterpieces.

Second, about reception of a message : take a look at Verhoeven's Robocop, which is quite popular, how many people did understand that the film is about the relation between the american society and the notion of image? And for Starship Trooper, did the "vast majority" saw that Verhoeven was criticizing the amercian politics? Is the message of 2001, a space odyssey understood by the "vast majority"?

 

"The vast majority" isn't an argument because you never talk about the quality of the writing, you are talking about how people received it, that's not the same thing.

People dislike Bella Tarr's films, Godard's films, it doesn't change the fact that they are some of the greatest directors in the cinema history and their films are some of the best.

[themikefest]

Remember, ME3 is the best place  to start playing the trilogy. Imagine if Shepard were to ask the catalyst why it didn't open the relay back when he/she was chasing Saren. New people wouldn't know what that question would mean unless they played the previous 2 games.  ME3 is for new players who haven't played the other 2 games. Maybe Bioware can make an ME3 for the old players.