192 réponses à ce sujet

[Stronglav]

Yes throw THAT out the airlock!!! 

[GalacticWolf5]

You can certainly head canon that your Shep will step back from his newfound galactic power but that's not what he says at all.

 

And that's not what I headcanon.

 

As I've said many times before (not only in this thread), my headcanons don't contradict with what is said in-game. I hate when people headcanon things that contradict actual canon.

 

Both endings indicate direct involvement.

 

And I never said the opposite.

 

And again, in both cases, it's Control Shep saying "I will..." over and over again.

 

He keeps saying ''I'' because the whole epilogue is about Shepard talking about how he has changed and what he can do now that he controls the Reapers.

 

But really. What will be rebuilt? Structures? Cities? The Relays? The Citadel? Because you can't rebuild the many millions of people lost.

 

Yeah he'll rebuild, as shown in the epilogue. And of course he can't bring back the millions of people who died, he didn't talk about that in the epilogue.

 

And how will you create a future with limitless possibilities? Limitless for whom? What kinds of possibilites?

 

With the all the knowledge that Shepard now has access to and can share. All this knowledge can provide so much advancements for the galactic community.

 

And how will you protect, sustain, and guard? Are organics going to see Reapers stationed in every city? Because that's a nice sight for a generation that saw billions killed. But I guess it'll only take a generation to get over it.

 

Well the EC epilogue shows that Reapers are around. I don't know what you're expecting me to say here.

 

I won't say people will immediately trust having Reapers around, I fully understand that, but someday it's gonna be alright.

 

The Reapers should start by having their name changed, obviously Reaper doesn't seem so good.

 

Maybe my judgement of the Paragon dialog is biased, because I have read those statements made by dictators, terrorist groups etc.

 

Maybe, because saying those things doesn't mean you're a dictator or terrorist.

 

The president of the United States could say this:

 

''To give the many hope for a future.

To ensure that all have a voice in their future.

I will rebuild what the many have lost.

I will create a future with limitless possibilities.

I will protect and sustain.

I will act as a guardian for the many.''

 

and it would make sense and certainly wouldn't sound dictatorial:

 

You think it sounds dictatorial, but that's only because you're already telling yourself Shepard becomes a dictator. You won't let yourself see outside of that. Try to read the Paragon epilogue without thinking about dictatorship.

 

I still think that, if Paragon Shepard intended to act as a part of the council, he/she could and should have said so.

 

Again, the epilogue is about Shepard talking about how he has changed and how he can do so much now that he has the Reapers.

[Monica21]

With the all the knowledge that Shepard now has access to and can share. All this knowledge can provide so much advancements for the galactic community.

That's great. What if not everyone is down for these advancements? What if Aria still wants to have Omega be a center for crime and smuggling? That's what she enjoys doing and I imagine she's not the only one. My point here is that you talk about advancements for the galactic community and it sounds great, but you can't force people to want what Paragon Control Shepard wants.
 
 

The president of the United States could say this:
 
''To give the many hope for a future.
To ensure that all have a voice in their future.
I will rebuild what the many have lost.
I will create a future with limitless possibilities.
I will protect and sustain.
I will act as a guardian for the many.''
 
and it would make sense and certainly wouldn't sound dictatorial:

I agree that it could, but it wouldn't. And, as an American, I think it does sound dictatorial. It sounds very much like throwing some paint on a police state. The Presidency doesn't work like that. A single person can't do all those things alone in the United States or in any democratic country.

 

You think it sounds dictatorial, but that's only because you're already telling yourself Shepard becomes a dictator. You won't let yourself see outside of that. Try to read the Paragon epilogue without thinking about dictatorship.

I think it sounds like tyranny. I have seen the Paragon Control ending before entering into this conversation and it was by far the one that gave me the most pause. I didn't like it at all. I actually prefer Synthesis to it, because Shepard won't be a Galactic Overlord. He'll just be a guy who created "the pinnacle of human evolution." But, to me, the Control ending is exactly that. He's not just controlling the Reapers, because he says that. He's controlling the galaxy.

[GalacticWolf5]

That's great. What if not everyone is down for these advancements? What if Aria still wants to have Omega be a center for crime and smuggling? That's what she enjoys doing and I imagine she's not the only one. My point here is that you talk about advancements for the galactic community and it sounds great, but you can't force people to want what Paragon Control Shepard wants.

 

But the epilogue doesn't mention how these limitless possibilities are given to the galaxy, therefore you can't say that he will absolutely force it on everyone. Maybe he'll make them happen gradually instead, without forcing it.

 

I agree that it could, but it wouldn't. And, as an American, I think it does sound dictatorial. It sounds very much like throwing some paint on a police state.

 

Well, we're gonna have to disagree on that.

 

I think it sounds like tyranny. I have seen the Paragon Control ending before entering into this conversation and it was by far the one that gave me the most pause. I didn't like it at all. I actually prefer Synthesis to it, because Shepard won't be a Galactic Overlord. He'll just be a guy who created "the pinnacle of human evolution." But, to me, the Control ending is exactly that. He's not just controlling the Reapers, because he says that. He's controlling the galaxy.

 

That's your opinion, even though the Paragon epilogue doesn't indicate that Shepard starts controlling the galaxy.

 

 

But anyways, we're gonna have to agree to disagree. I don't see Paragon Control as dictatorial and you do.

[Obadiah]

Without overthinking the ending too much, I think one of the messages of the ending is: the potentially immense and dangerous power that we can achieve when we work together (even with our worst enemies, or with people with different ways of thinking), the kinds of intractable and heretofore unknown problems that we can solve, and Shepard's choice, since he dies, is sort of his guidance forward. The choice doesn't really guarantee anything, obviously.

Personally, I find it kind of depressing and hopefully, tragic and uplifting (this especially with the economy of the original ending), all at the same time.

Modifié par Obadiah, 22 septembre 2015 - 03:27 .

[Natureguy85]

I literallly said that my Shepard acted with the Council. Do you want me to write a novel to describe how everything would happen?

 

2) The Humans are gonna show it, otherwise THE COUNCIL will make sure they do because that would pose a threat to peace in the galaxy.

 

Ok, then why did you specifically mention the Council in deciding the punishment if they would be involved in all aspects? What if the Council doesn't do those things? There will still be a human Councilor. Apparently in your head canon, the Council just does whatever Shepard wants. That's fine, I guess.

 

The Council isn't stupid. Their actions affect the entire galaxy, they can't just sit back and do nothing. I'm pretty sure they would't allow any kind of genocide unless it was stricly necessary (like the during the Rachni Wars).

 

Apparently you didn't play Mass Effect or Mass Effect 2. Dantriges already quoted the most appropriate line.

 

 

 

Here are the Paragon and Renegade epilogue dialogues. Lines that are bolded are different.

 

Spoiler

PARAGON

 

Eternal. Infinite. Immortal.

The man I was used these words, but only now do I truly understand them.

And only now do I undersant the full extent of his sacrifice.

Through his death, I was created.

Through my birth, his thoughts are freed.

They guide me now, give me reason, direction.

Just as he gave direction to the ones who followed him, the ones who helped him achieve his purpose.

Now my purpose.

To give the many hope for a future.

To ensure that all have a voice in their future.

The man I was knew that he could only achieve this by becoming something greater.

There is power in control.

There is wisdom in harnessing the strenghts of your enemy.

I will rebuild what the many have lost.

I will create a future with limitless possibilities.

I will protect and sustain.

I will act as a guardian for the many.

And throughout it all, I will never forget.

I will remember the ones who sacrificed themselves so that the many could survive.

And I will watch over the ones who live on.

Those who carry the memory of the man I once was.

The man who gave up his life to become the one who could save the many.

 

Spoiler

RENEGADE

 

Eternal. Infinite. Immortal.

The man I was used these words, but only now do I truly understand them.

And only now do I comptrehend the full potential of his decision.

Through his death, I was created.

Through my birth, his thoughts are freed.

They guide me now, give me reason, direction.

Just as he gave direction to the ones who followed him, the ones who helped him achieves his purpose.

Now my purpose.

To provide the many with a powerful leader.

To put an end to the bickering of the many.

To ensure the strongest are not feared or reviled for their strenght.

The man I was knew that he could only achieve this by becoming something greater.

There is power in control.

There is wisdom in harnessing the strenght of your enemy.

I will restore what the many have fought for.

I will lead an army that no one will dare oppose.

I will protect, defend.

I will destroy those who theaten the future of the many.

And throughout it all, I will never forget.

I will remember the ones who fought so that the many could survive.

And I will keep a watchful eye over the ones who live on.

Those who carry the memory of the man I once was.

The man who fought to become the one who could lead the many.

 

In conclusion,

 

Paragon

 

No indication of dictatorship. Player is free to decide if his/her Shepard becomes a benevolent dictator or not.

 

Renegade

 

Clear indication of dictatorship.

 

You seem to be limiting your understanding of dictatorship to aggression. The Renegade option is certainly more aggressive, but both are claiming that they have an agenda and will see it done. Paragon just uses more protective language.

 

 

Back then, the Council judged they didn't have enough proof that the Reapers really existed.

 

Including the parts of an actual Reaper. And what if they decide the Krogan's claims aren't enough?

 

"To ensure that all have a voice in their future. "

 

So? Having a voice doesn't mean that it is followed. How many dictators are "elected"? As I implied before, what if someone's decision or vote is influenced by Shepard having the Reapers even if Shepard doesn't intend that?

[Natureguy85]

 

He keeps saying ''I'' because the whole epilogue is about Shepard talking about how he has changed and what he can do now that he controls the Reapers.

And there is no indication of collaboration. Again, what if the Council decides to do something that, in Shepard's view, endangers "the many?"

 

 

 

I won't say people will immediately trust having Reapers around, I fully understand that, but someday it's gonna be alright.

 

The Reapers should start by having their name changed, obviously Reaper doesn't seem so good.

Yeah, better white-wash history. Just like the Democratic People's Republic of Korea and the People's Republic of China. They just sound so great, don't they?

 

 

 

Maybe, because saying those things doesn't mean you're a dictator or terrorist.

 

The president of the United States could say this:

 

''To give the many hope for a future.

To ensure that all have a voice in their future.

I will rebuild what the many have lost.

I will create a future with limitless possibilities.

I will protect and sustain.

I will act as a guardian for the many.''

 

and it would make sense and certainly wouldn't sound dictatorial:

 

Oh, yes, a President saying those things would be a big time red flag. Not only because it sounds somewhat authoritarian, anti-republican (as in a republic, not the party), and similar to things dictators say, but also because those phrases are very vague and meaningless.

 

However, this did make me think of one point in your favor. Presidential candidates will generally run saying what they will do when they will actually need Congress to pass legislation for most of it. Personally, I wish they would make that distinction, if only so they are not making promises they may not be able to deliver on through no fault of their own. On the other hand, we're dealing with a President now who just seizes authority when Congress doesn't do what he wants.

 

 

 

You think it sounds dictatorial, but that's only because you're already telling yourself Shepard becomes a dictator. You won't let yourself see outside of that. Try to read the Paragon epilogue without thinking about dictatorship.

 

 

Again, the epilogue is about Shepard talking about how he has changed and how he can do so much now that he has the Reapers.

 

You have it backwards. We have decided Shepard becomes a dictator because what he says sounds dictatorial. Doing it the other way makes no sense.

 

 

 

Well, we're gonna have to disagree on that.

 

But anyways, we're gonna have to agree to disagree. I don't see Paragon Control as dictatorial and you do.

 

Then I suggest you read some of the US Founder and Framers, as well as the Enlightenment thinkers who influenced them. And you disagree because you're reacting to the negative connotations of a dictatorship, rather than the strict definition of the governing style.

 

 

One of the messages of the ending is: the potential immense and dangerous power when we work together (even with our worst enemies), the kinds of intractable problems that we could solve, and Shepard's choice, since he dies, is his guidance forward.

 

And yet that "immense and dangerous power" was incapable of defeating the Reapers. It was capable of getting one of their ants to a room to talk to their leader and of making a magic machine that turned that ant into an AI.

[GalacticWolf5]

Listen here, I know what dictatorship is. We've been talking about that for days now.

 

Anyways, conclusion to this whole thing:

 

- My Paragon Shepard doesn't become a dictator. Yours would. And that's fine because the Paragon epilogue is open enough for that. The player can interpret it as dictatorial if they want, but it doesn't have to be.

 

- Renegade Shepard becomes a dictator.

 

That was a nice repetitive discussion I guess.

[Natureguy85]

Listen here, I know what dictatorship is. We've been talking about that for days now.

 

Anyways, conclusion to this whole thing:

 

- My Paragon Shepard doesn't become a dictator. Yours would. And that's fine because the Paragon epilogue is open enough for that. The player can interpret it as dictatorial if they want, but it doesn't have to be.

 

- Renegade Shepard becomes a dictator.

 

That was a nice repetitive discussion I guess.

 

No, no you don't. But since that's flying over your head, we'll move on. Why is the Paragon the only one that is open? Why couldn't Renegade Catalyst-Shepard do all that stuff with the Council, just the same?

[Obadiah]

...
- Renegade Shepard becomes a dictator.
...

The purpose my Renegade Shepard got in the Control speech was:

• To right the wrongs of the past.
• To provide a voice for those too weak to speak for themselves.

That dictatorship (or monarchy?) is going to be... interesting.

[Monica21]

Listen here, I know what dictatorship is. We've been talking about that for days now.
 
Anyways, conclusion to this whole thing:
 
- My Paragon Shepard doesn't become a dictator. Yours would. And that's fine because the Paragon epilogue is open enough for that. The player can interpret it as dictatorial if they want, but it doesn't have to be.
 
- Renegade Shepard becomes a dictator.
 
That was a nice repetitive discussion I guess.

Well, I was okay with this until the "Yours would." My opinion is that Paragon or Renegade Control Shepard has the means and resources and to became a dictator and the logical step is that he will. Your opinion is that despite those means and resources, he won't. Can we agree on that much at least?

[Paulomedi]

Stop overthinking the ending. The irony!

[Stronglav]

Stop overthinking the ending. The irony!

 

There is no point.

[GalacticWolf5]

No, no you don't.

 

You know everything I know? XD

 

Why is the Paragon the only one that is open? Why couldn't Renegade Catalyst-Shepard do all that stuff with the Council, just the same?

 

Don't twist my words there buddy. I only said that Paragon was open enough to decide if Shepard became a dictator or not. Also, see under this.

 

The purpose my Renegade Shepard got in the Control speech was:

• To right the wrongs of the past.
• To provide a voice for those too weak to speak for themselves.

That dictatorship (or monarchy?) is going to be... interesting.

 

None of that is said in the Renegade epilogue...

 

Spoiler

RENEGADE

 

Eternal. Infinite. Immortal.

The man I was used these words, but only now do I truly understand them.

And only now do I comptrehend the full potential of his decision.

Through his death, I was created.

Through my birth, his thoughts are freed.

They guide me now, give me reason, direction.

Just as he gave direction to the ones who followed him, the ones who helped him achieves his purpose.

Now my purpose.

To provide the many with a powerful leader.

To put an end to the bickering of the many.

To ensure the strongest are not feared or reviled for their strenght.

The man I was knew that he could only achieve this by becoming something greater.

There is power in control.

There is wisdom in harnessing the strenght of your enemy.

I will restore what the many have fought for.

I will lead an army that no one will dare oppose.

I will protect, defend.

I will destroy those who theaten the future of the many.

And throughout it all, I will never forget.

I will remember the ones who fought so that the many could survive.

And I will keep a watchful eye over the ones who live on.

Those who carry the memory of the man I once was.

The man who fought to become the one who could lead the many.

 

''To provide the many with a powerful leader.''

''To put an end to the bickering of the many.''

''To ensure the strongest are not feared or reviled for their strenght.''

''I will lead an army that no one will dare oppose.''

''I will destroy those who theaten the future of the many.''

 

That's pretty dictatorial right there. And @Natuteguy85, character wise, if your Shepard is Renegade then he doesn't like the Council and the dialogue in this epilogue indicates that Shepard wants to be the leader of the galaxy.

[Obadiah]

...
None of that is said in the Renegade
...

It's the speech I got the one time I did Renegade Control. You know the speech can change depending on actions in game, right?

[Stronglav]

You people like to argue don't you?

[Natureguy85]

You know everything I know? XD

 

True, you could know it and are merely commenting as if you didn't.

 

 

Don't twist my words there buddy. I only said that Paragon was open enough to decide if Shepard became a dictator or not. Also, see under this.

 

I didn't twist anything. You left Paragon Shepard open to interpretation, saying yours wasn't a dictator while another person's was, and then said Renegade Shepard was a dictator, without that qualifier, as though it was a sure thing. So if the "I will" statements of Paragon Shepard could be "I will with the Council", why not Renegade? What if it's a new council or other body Renegade Catalyst-Shepard sets up?

[Joseph Warrick]

Looking forward to a Bioware dev dropping by to say "finally someone gets it".