34 réponses à ce sujet

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Greetings folks.

 

Something that remained with me after finishing this DLC are Morrigan's words. In the epilogue Morrigan says, "’Tis said that Corypheus woke after his long slumber and found the world gone awry."

 

In the final discussion with Solas he says that when he woke up a year before the explosion at the Conclave it was like everyone was Tranquil. He's determined to bring back existence as he remembers it, no matter the cost.

 

This is very similar to the next line in the initial epilogue narrated by Morrigan, "He fought to bring back those days of magic and shadow, to raise himself as a god, and set things right."

 

However, I think possibly the most apt parallels is one you can draw with yourself: Your Inquisitor's reaction to In Hushed Whispers is perhaps the most telling.

 

When your Inquisitor are sent into the future, you see a world in total chaos and misery. At any point, did you think to yourself, "Maybe I should look into this more, and not try to erase this future?"

 

Erasing this future means destroying anyone who was born. Erasing bad things, of course, but good things, too, even if they seem few. There must be some good things that were present in that world. Perhaps we could have helped the resistance fight the Elder One and take him down instead of erasing the timeline.

 

However, you and Dorian never stop and consider that you should salvage this world or save it. This world is abhorrent to you. A total catastrophe, and failing abomination. Of course you are going to restore the world you knew. Whatever the flaws of your own world, it is surely better than what you see? Dorian even repeats this to character such as Leliana who replied that this world was real to them regardless of what you say.

 

There are parallels with Corypheus, yes, but Corypheus, at least, woke to a world that was not too altered. Corypheus lived in a time with the Veil. On the other hand, you entered into and Solas woke to a world that is torn apart from the one both of you respectively knew.

 

Let us take this further. What if you were sent 20 years in the future? 200? 2000 ? The people kicking around then, all corrupted by Red Lyrium, even the children. The people live as long as 20 or 30. All slaves to Corypheus unless you are magister, a human and a citizen of Tevinter.

 

Yet they insist, no, their world is fine. It is all good. Though, you know that there was a world that you can return that was so much better. These people, despite being miserable, corrupted slaves, they see value in themselves. Do you erase them anyway? Or do you let this world continue as it goes? That is the world Solas woke up to.

 

Solas woke up to a world with little magic...A world where Titans slept, Dwarves are sundered, Great Dragons are mere beasts, Elves are weak shadows of themselves...A world where Spirits are feared, where there is massive conflict every 5 to 10 years, where mages are locked up in a tower...A world where there exists philosophies such as the Qun and a world that still practices slavery, especially of Elves...

 

To Solas, this world must have appeared to be like how our Inquisitors saw the future world in the quest In Hushed Whispers. The Inquisitors proceeds to undo it within an instant whereas Solas at least try to make sense of it.

 

In Solas' position, I think you know what most of us would choose.The more I think about it, the more I understand where Solas' and Corypheus' are coming from. I cannot hate them. I can dislike them out of a sense of self preservation but I would pity them as well.

 

The worst part is that the Inquisitor, in game, does what Solas and Corypheus do, albeit on a smaller scale. We traveled to the future, found a world that is abhorrent to us and sought to unmake it. We did so without hesitation, without doubt, without question and without any second thought to the people in that world. In fact, I think only Ameridan was the only person from the past who was okay with the future world.

 

The reality is that those who are calling for Solas' deaths and those who hate him are hypocrites, doubly so if they did the quest In Hushed Whispers. Upon further reflection, I do not want to kill Solas. I would stop him and only resort to killing him if there is no other choice. For the simple reason the Inquisitor is no different than Solas.

 

Personally, even I would do what Solas, Corypheus and Inquisitor did if I were put in their position. Without remorse, without hesitation and without fail. I would restore the world to what I knew unless if this alternate world is significantly superior in some way.

 

Cheers & have a nice day.

[Reznore57]

What?

The future Corypheus created , even Corypheus didn't like it.

Red Lyrium growing out of hand , and demons everywhere ...it was the end of the world.

You can read letters even the Venatori are starting to panic and don't leave the stronghold.

And it was just after one year.

 

Solas wake up after thousands of years ,and look around and just doesn't approve.

The main problem was the templar /mage war but no apocalypse on the horizon.

Life was going on fine .

 

Its like in one case you find a dog , he has rabies.So yeah you need to kill him , it's a mercy.

And in another you find a healthy dog , but he's not pure breed so you decide to kill him because you only want the best ...it's cruelty.

[Kulyok]

That's an interesting and a thoughtful analogy. Thank you for bringing it to our minds!

 

Actually, that analogy is not unlike a situation in Three Worlds Collide by Yudkowsky, where humans encounter a terrible race of BabyEaters - who eat millions of conscious children each day, alive! - and want to stop them, because BabyEaters' children suffer too much, but then another race, SuperHappies, arrive, and want to change *humans*, because they consider there's too much pain and suffering in our world, and *our* children suffer too much.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

What?

 

The future Corypheus created , even Corypheus didn't like it.

Red Lyrium growing out of hand , and demons everywhere ...it was the end of the world.

You can read letters even the Venatori are starting to panic and don't leave the stronghold.

And it was just after one year.

 

Solas wake up after thousands of years ,and look around and just doesn't approve.

The main problem was the templar /mage war but no apocalypse on the horizon.

Life was going on fine .

 

Its like in one case you find a dog , he has rabies.So yeah you need to kill him , it's a mercy.

And in another you find a healthy dog , but he's not pure breed so you decide to kill him because you only want the best ...it's cruelty.

 

You never know. Perhaps in another year all will be wiped out, Veil would be torn, everyone would die and this will effectively create a reset switch for Thedas. Fast forward 100 years, life is beginning to flourish again, albeit not the one you recognize.There is good and bad everywhere, regardless of universe or reality.

 

My point is this - Corypheus, Solas and the Inquisitor are not very different from one another. People should realize that. The only different person is Ameridan since he is the only person content with the future world, even despite the Dales being destroyed, Drakon gone and Telana dead.

[Jeniva]

I do understand where Solas is coming from. It is after all, all his fault as well. It's not like he's some random whose woken up and seen the world gone wrong, he was the one who caused the world to go wrong (wrong to him anyway). 
The only thing that does annoy me, is if he's so in 'love' with the inquisitor, he seems still hell bent on opening the fade. Unless the current elves will survive...but I doubt it. 

[Reznore57]

You never know. Perhaps in another year all will be wiped out, Veil would be torn, everyone would die and this will effectively create a reset switch for Thedas. Fast forward 100 years, life is beginning to flourish again, albeit not the one you recognize.There is good and bad everywhere, regardless of universe or reality.

 

My point is this - Corypheus, Solas and the Inquisitor are not very different from one another. People should realize that. The only different person is Ameridan since he is the only person content with the future world, even despite the Dales being destroyed, Drakon gone and Telana dead.

 

They are different.

Cory and Solas are the same , they woke up and can't accept the fact that life went on without them.

 

The story of Trespasser is how the Inquisitor doesn't go on this route.

The Inquisition is disbanded or given to the public services.

You face a trial , you talk with people , you listen to them.And you bend to their will...

Then you put on your superhero cape again and go fight those who have a god complex and decide them alone have the right to choose the fate of the whole world.

[Mevanna]

Solas woke up to a world with little magic...A world where Titans slept, Dwarves are sundered, Great Dragons are mere beasts, Elves are weak shadows of themselves...A world where Spirits are feared, where there is massive conflict every 5 to 10 years, where mages are locked up in a tower...A world where there exists philosophies such as the Qun and a world that still practices slavery, especially of Elves...

 

And Darkspawn. Let's not forget Darkspawn.

 

Anyway, I do agree with all this, but most people's instant reaction is "Oh no, he is a genocidal monster!"

 

So judgmental. It's funny, really. Solas is ridiculously old and knows far more about history and the world than us players ever will, so we may never even be able to fully comprehend his reasons and motivations. Yet still we think we somehow know better than him and have a right to condemn him. 

 

Never get tired of laughing at human nature. ^^

[Bayonet Hipshot]

And Darkspawn. Let's not forget Darkspawn.

 

Anyway, I do agree with all this, but most people's instant reaction is "Oh no, he is a genocidal monster!"

 

So judgmental. It's funny, really. Solas is ridiculously old and knows far more about history and the world than us players ever will, so we may never even be able to fully comprehend his reasons and motivations. Yet still we think we somehow know better than him and have a right to condemn him. 

 

Never get tired of laughing at human nature. ^^

 

Things are always more complicated than they are, and I'd like to see people wanting to kill Solas for resetting the Timeline, wanting to kill their Inquisitor for having done the exact same thing in Hushed Whispers. How the Inquisitor gets away with it, but not Solas? And no, I won't accept the "it's just one year" argument, because that means you're putting a value on lives, and I ethically can't accept that train of thought.

[helpthisguyplease]

History is made by the winner that is why I say might and power is what defines who is right.

[AllThatJazz]

Great OP, pretty much my thoughts on the matter too - I'd be interested in knowing whether it factored in to Bioware's quest design - did they (partly) put in this quest so the inquisitor could share a perspective with Solas? So that we can empathise with his motivations even while disagreeing with his actions? I mean, it's one of numerous parallels that we can draw between them, it seems like more than coincidence.

[Mevanna]

History never cares. Whether Solas succeeds or loses, the world will simply keep on turning. (assuming Thedas even turns ^^)

 

I do think the world he's trying to bring back is better than the one we've got at the moment, but you can't really blame people for fighting for their survival.

 

Then again, it is not possible for them to survive. Give it a hundred years or so and they'll all be dead anyway, because that's mortality for you. If you count a life's value by how much you're taking from the world by killing them, then an immortal life is inherently more valuable, meaning Solas gets the moral high ground? This is getting philosophical.

[RyanJW]

I have to disagree with comparing In Hushed Whispers with Cory/Solas's goals.  In Hushed Whispers involves restoring the timeline that was messed up with Inky/Dorian being removed from time for a year.  Cory and Solas both seem intent on restoring their respective empires in the present day.  i.e. they are not trying to prevent an event from happening (Inky/Dorian being sent forward a year) but to replace something that has already happened.

[Kulyok]

I have to disagree with comparing In Hushed Whispers with Cory/Solas's goals.  In Hushed Whispers involves restoring the timeline that was messed up with Inky/Dorian being removed from time for a year.  Cory and Solas both seem intent on restoring their respective empires in the present day.  i.e. they are not trying to prevent an event from happening (Inky/Dorian being sent forward a year) but to replace something that has already happened.

 

And that's exactly what the Inquisitor's doing in the Hushed Whispers - replace something that has already happened. Imagine that BadRedcliffe is not the future - it is now, the impenetrable, eternal, horrible now. It has already happened, your friends are already dying, this is your present, and your future can only be more horrible. You can change it, but only by restoring the past.

 

You raise a fine issue, by the way, and I wonder it myself: why wouldn't Solas open a small time rift and go to the past and try to do something else?

[Mevanna]

Alexius answers that one for you - it's not possible. The time magic is tied to the Breach and doesn't let you go back to a point before that.

[Smudjygirl]

Well, Solas makes it clear he hates what's become of the world after the events of the Temple of Mythal (if you drink).

 

"What if you wake up and everything is worse than it was?". He changed the world from its natural state to try and fix it, but now it's so much worse. Before it was the "Gods" which were the problem, but now it's everyone and everything. It seems he thinks returning to the way things were and destroying the actual problem is the way to go.

 

Sadly, he's so dead set on it that unless you can fix every conflict in the "next few years", i don't think there will be much of a chance of saving him.

 

But it's not the same as Cory. He just wanted power, at any cost. He wanted to be a God because he felt he deserved it. Solas wants to help, as misgided as he is. I mean, some of the things he says to the Inquisitor if she's his lover are pretty sad. I've only played it once, so i'm not sure of the differences, but i know he really thinks what he's doing is for the best. Cole says "Solas doesn't want to hurt people, he's not that kind of wolf", so it's not like the decision he came to is an easy one for him. Some of the worst evils humans have ever committed were done with the best of intentions.

[tirnoney]

It's a trope that has been explored many times in sci-fi and fantasy.  Usually the protagonist is spared the agonising moral decision in the end because the alternative timeline/parallel world is shown to be doomed regardless.  You could argue that the Redcliffe world fell into that category.  Was it at all redeemable, even in theory, if the inquisitor chose to stay and make it better?  From the codex entries it sounded like the world was torn apart by fade rifts and overrun by demons.  Your companions don't really hesitate to sacrifice themselves to bring the old world back either so that also suggests there wasn't much about it that was worth saving.

 

Solas' dilemma regarding destroying Thedas as it is now is a different matter.  It's full of intelligent beings who very much believe it is worth fighting for in its current state.  The construct of the dilemma is similar, but it is quantitatively and qualitatively different.

[RyanJW]

And that's exactly what the Inquisitor's doing in the Hushed Whispers - replace something that has already happened. Imagine that BadRedcliffe is not the future - it is now, the impenetrable, eternal, horrible now. It has already happened, your friends are already dying, this is your present, and your future can only be more horrible. You can change it, but only by restoring the past.

 

You raise a fine issue, by the way, and I wonder it myself: why wouldn't Solas open a small time rift and go to the past and try to do something else?

 

I'm not sure I agree with equating In Hushed Whispers with Cory/Solas's actions, or maybe I feel that In Hushed Whispers is Inky trying to change things that someone else did (Alexis) while Cory/Solas are not happy with the results of their own actions fast forwarded a thousand/however many years.  They didn't like how their actions changed things so they want to go back to the good ol' days. As Hawke said "That's what happens when you try to change things. Things Change."

[The Baconer]

And Darkspawn. Let's not forget Darkspawn.

 

Anyway, I do agree with all this, but most people's instant reaction is "Oh no, he is a genocidal monster!"

 

So judgmental. It's funny, really. Solas is ridiculously old and knows far more about history and the world than us players ever will, so we may never even be able to fully comprehend his reasons and motivations. Yet still we think we somehow know better than him and have a right to condemn him. 

 

Never get tired of laughing at human nature. ^^

 

Of course we have a right to condemn him, why wouldn't we?

 

'Draco in Leather Pants', another amusing oddity of human nature :>

[dragondreamer]

I didn't get the impression Ameridan was happy about what happened to the Dales, but there was nothing he could do about it.  But yeah, the parallels Solas has with Corypheus are definitely there.  And it's easy to see where Solas is coming from, for all the terrible injustices in the Elvhen Empire, it was also beautiful and full of wonders unlike anything in modern Thedas.  Still, perhaps Solas would be willing to overlook the loss of all the magic and the original state of being of the elves, if life in Thedas for modern elves wasn't so dismal.  Sometimes he sounds like the old Dales would have made him happy if it had remained.  But as things are, it's beyond unacceptable for him, and his own crushing guilt won't accept anything less than a complete restoration of the ancient world.

 

But one way Solas is different from Corypheus, is that Solas rejects the notion of being a god.  Which is ironic, since he's acting like one.  Destroying the world repeatedly, trying to make the world perfect, even at the expense of all the little mortals living in it, is very much creation myth territory. 

[KumoriYami]

History is made by the winner that is why I say might and power is what defines who is right.

couldn't agree more with this.  Chantry did this every single time against the Elvhen people, same with Tevinter.

[Abelis]

They are different.

Cory and Solas are the same , they woke up and can't accept the fact that life went on without them.

 

The story of Trespasser is how the Inquisitor doesn't go on this route.

The Inquisition is disbanded or given to the public services.

You face a trial , you talk with people , you listen to them.And you bend to their will...

Then you put on your superhero cape again and go fight those who have a god complex and decide them alone have the right to choose the fate of the whole world.

I think Solas and the Inquisitor are the same. They both wake up in a world much worst that the one they knew , and they freak out from what they see, knowing is their fault things came to that (solas bringing up the veil, inq failing at maintaining the world as its the only person who can prevent this) and they still have the direct power to correct it. They feel it as their responsibility things came to this and the have to mend it as it brings them despair for what they see. It is not about power/godhood and ruling over others, its about the everyday life of people.
Mortality and aging of current Thedas to an immortal Solas, would seem as the blight killing people over time to the Inq. The speed of disintegration of life is really quick regarding their lifespan accordingly. Inq sees that the future world is indoctrinated and tortured, Solas when he wakes feels like everyone has been made Tranquill, with masters who rule over slaves still here.
Also, Solas also puts his superhero cape as the Inquisitor to fight those super mages with so much power who themselves as gods and they would decide everything, untouchable in their 'godhood'. I see many parallels between them. Cory is not any of this.

[KumoriYami]

Actually think Corypheus and Solas are more similar than Solas and the Inquisitor. Corypheus and Solas both have singular goals and while one didn't care about collateral at all, Solas at least wants people to die happy.... not that that's great. They both wanted to have something 'righted' with an ends justified the means mentality. Corypheus at least seemed to have a bit of regret in sacrificing Samson in some letters in the Arbor Wilds and Solas had an ancient magister take his orb and unleash demons unto all of Thedas but stuck around to make up for his mistake.

 

I'd compare the Inquisitor more to Ameridan and Telana.. especially romanced Solas version. The current Inquisitor was thrust into a position that they had no choice with and was tasked with doing something ridiculous since they were the only one that could similarly to Ameridan. They were also the only ones who seemed to recognize the threats they faced, aside from the ones closest to them. As for Telana... well she was desperate to reach Ameridan and devoted the last of her life to try and reach her lover, which I can really see Lavellan doing, and possibly dying in the process given the task at hand with spies all around, even if the Inquisition is disbanded.

[SwobyJ]

I'll only say that Inquisitor is 1/2 the problem case that Solas and Corypheus are/were.

 

But the other 1/2 is utterly heroic, as far as we can still see.

 

The Hushed Whispers future had Future!Leliana insist that it was real (to her). But she also definitely went along with the path to 'rewind' it all. And we can be sure that everyone not super crazed like Future!Alexius would as well. Heck, I wonder if even Corypheus would go with it at that point.

 

I think Corpheus on the other hand is more understandable than Solas, but much less sympathetic. But overall worse than the Inquisitor.

And Solas on the other hand is much less understandable, but more sympathetic than Corypheus. But overall worse than the Inquisitor.

 

Bioware is just blurring the lines a little and I welcome that.

 

You can successfully understand what Corypheus is doing, but he has to be stopped.

You can successfully sympathize with Solas, but he has to be stopped.

 

The Inquisitor, as far as we know so far, doesn't have to be stopped. Even at most Fail, he's a positive force on Thedas that especially doesn't support violent upheaval and change when it is unncessary. You're missing a lot of context to In Hushed Whispers. All you can get from that quest is a verification of the phrase "We're not so different, you and I" ... but they're still different. For one example. Inquisitor is trying to fix others' mistakes, not their own. This can mean another level of accountability and a sharing of the burden compared to the other two's narcissism.

 

Sidenote: Cory's Red and Solas' Green makes me totally ready for Mythal's Blue to jump in soon.

[Alpha452]

Things are always more complicated than they are, and I'd like to see people wanting to kill Solas for resetting the Timeline, wanting to kill their Inquisitor for having done the exact same thing in Hushed Whispers. How the Inquisitor gets away with it, but not Solas? And no, I won't accept the "it's just one year" argument, because that means you're putting a value on lives, and I ethically can't accept that train of thought.

Actually what the Inquisitor did in "in Hushed Whispers" was putting things right. With the breach pretty much swallowing the entire world there were loads of people who didn't get to live..that now get to live thanks to you going back in time and closing the Breach. What Solas wants to do is murder everyone who currently lives when by ripping down the Veil which will only kill people who now live..it won't bring back people who would are long gone. So Corypheus and Solas are both monsters who deserve to burn..in fact I'd make Solas into one of the Tranquil..only good thing he could do is make useful enchantments.

[Aulis Vaara]

Does travelling back in time erase a time line? If so, how can you have gone there in the first place?

They never should have put in time travel, but even so it makes what the Inquisitor did vastly different from what Solas intends to do.