1659 réponses à ce sujet

[leadintea]

I'm really annoyed that people keep going on about this Solas business. Yes, the Inquisitor does have an important tie to Solas, and yes, I do want them to be there in the final confrontation with Solas, but DA4 isn't going to be solely about Solas. It's also going to be about Tevinter and the Qunari invasion, and I think it'd be a crime to have the Inquisitor return to deal with these plot elements, as their not very connected to them (except maybe the Qunari invasion and Hawke arguably has a stronger tie to it), instead of having a new protagonist who would most likely have a stronger tie with them deal with those elements. For example, if the main character is a slave who has a member of their family sacrificed for the magister they serve, it'd mean much more for them to be involved in Tevinter politics than the Inquisitor whose only tie to Tevinter is Dorian. So again, they definitely need to bring the Inquisitor back for the Solas confrontation, but other than that, he'd be a weak protagonist for the rest of DA4's plot elements.

[Heimdall]

I am perfectly content with having the Inquisitor take a Chess Master role, giving you orders and so forth. So long as it is done well, but that's the kicker isn't it? Bioware's writing quality isn't as consistent as it used to be. So I am sure you will understand if the concept does not fill me with much hope. Regardless no one has yet to provide a valid reason why enforcing this "only 1 game per character" rule is even good for this Franchise. There is nothing that says the same PC can't be reused aside from people insisting otherwise, because reasons. Someone can keep insisting "Thedas is the main character" but that does nothing to explain why we must limit our options to only 1 game per character.

I'm not sure what you'd consider a valid reason, but I can give you mine. I think inhabiting new characters and new perspectives greatly helps to expand and explore this universe. I also love building up new characters. For me, the drawback of having the Inquisitor will make the story all about Solas and finding Solas and discovering what his plans are. Solas, Solas, Solas. If all I wanted from the next game was the Solas story arc, I would probably be advocating the Inquisitor's return.

But the benefit to the Solas storyline is less important to me than the benefits of a new protagonist. So I'm willing to take my chances with an NPC cameo.

[TheRevanchist]

I'm not sure what you'd consider a valid reason, but I can give you mine. I think inhabiting new characters and new perspectives greatly helps to expand and explore this universe. I also love building up new characters. For me, the drawback of having the Inquisitor will make the story all about Solas and finding Solas and discovering what his plans are. Solas, Solas, Solas. If all I wanted from the next game was the Solas story arc, I would probably be advocating the Inquisitor's return.

But the Solas storyline is less important to me than the benefits of a new protagonist.

 

Ok, so you build up a character and then what? you just move on to the next random weakling. We're building up a bunch of people for no real reason. None of these characters are ever going to be relevant in any serious ways beyond their own self contained game.

 

Secondly, yes, giving a new character can be good because of those reasons. However, trying to force that mentality when it might not be the best course for the story does not help this Setting. Sometimes the story might benefit more from a PC coming back for another game or two. But we'll never know, because some of us keep insisting a new character every single time is the only way this Franchise can function for some reason.

[katcrave]

I'm really annoyed that people keep going on about this Solas business. Yes, the Inquisitor does have an important tie to Solas, and yes, I do want them to be there in the final confrontation with Solas, but DA4 isn't going to be solely about Solas. It's also going to be about Tevinter and the Qunari invasion, and I think it'd be a crime to have the Inquisitor return to deal with these plot elements, as their not very connected to them (except maybe the Qunari invasion and Hawke arguably has a stronger tie to it), instead of having a new protagonist who would most likely have a stronger tie with them deal with those elements. For example, if the main character is a slave who has a member of their family sacrificed for the magister they serve, it'd mean much more for them to be involved in Tevinter politics than the Inquisitor whose only tie to Tevinter is Dorian. So again, they definitely need to bring the Inquisitor back for the Solas confrontation, but other than that, he'd be a weak protagonist for the rest of DA4's plot elements.

That would be great, if that's the story Trespasser had sold. If Trespasser had simply been about the Qunari invasion and the Inquisitor stopping the precursor to it, then yeah, DA4 is about the north. But that isn't the story they told. The Qunari were ultimately a secondary line in Trespasser. The main narrative was confronting Solas and learning his plans. Solas is now the primary antagonist of this series and having anyone else resolve the issue would be ridiculously bad story structure. If the next DA game doesn't deal with Solas, Trespasser will have gone from being a spectacular dlc to being a narrative nightmare. "Hey I'm coming to destroy the world, enjoy what little time you have left" "Nuhuh Solas, I'm going to redeem/kill you, you'll see". Psych. Its just about a Qunari invasion. Solas is out picking daisies and frolicking in woods.

[whiteravenxi]

I'm not sure what you'd consider a valid reason, but I can give you mine. I think inhabiting new characters and new perspectives greatly helps to expand and explore this universe. I also love building up new characters. For me, the drawback of having the Inquisitor will make the story all about Solas and finding Solas and discovering what his plans are. Solas, Solas, Solas. If all I wanted from the next game was the Solas story arc, I would probably be advocating the Inquisitor's return.

But the benefit to the Solas storyline is less important to me than the benefits of a new protagonist. So I'm willing to take my chances with an NPC cameo.

 

I agree that having a new protagonist brings new perspectives, new characters and new fun. There's actually two separate arguments taking place here so I hope I can clarify. From what I've been reading in this thread, no one is against the idea of a new protagonist. Those of us pining for the Inquisitor are against a new protagonist finishing the Solas story.

 

I don't care whether or not DA4 is about Solas, Solas, as you say, I care only that I'm driving my Inquisitor when it comes to put the Solas story to bed. If we get an Awakening like expansion with the IQ to do that and then a fresh start on DA4, that would be perfectly fine.

 

But it's poor writing and poor form to start the next game in Tevinter with Solas as the bad guy only to have an unknown rise to power AGAIN to set the world right. This would be doubly confounded because either the IQ shows up as a cameo in which she will be out of character for us, or she doesn't show at all and sends us a stupid letter.

 

Lastly, as big a deal the Qunari invasion is, it does not compare in narrative weight to Solas bringing down the entirety of the Veil onto everyone's head, and thus killing EVERYONE. That's even worse than Cory's plan. Cory just wanted to rule as a god over a broken world. Solas will singlehandedly commit genocide against every race but his own. The only people that know about this right now are the Inquisitor and her allies. Nobody, not even a new protagonist is going to believe that is happening, even if the IQ spray painted 'the sky is falling' on her back and ran around Thedas naked.

[Heimdall]

Ok, so you build up a character and then what? you just move on to the next random weakling. We're building up a bunch of people for no real reason. None of these characters are ever going to be relevant in any serious ways beyond their own self contained game.

I built my Warden up to stop the Blight. I built my Hawke up to do right by her family and attempt to maintain stability. I built my Inquisitor up to stop Corypheus. None of that was for nothing. I don't need them to be relevant beyond their own game, but not being the protagonist doesn't mean they can't be relevant.

Secondly, yes, giving a new character can be good because of those reasons. However, trying to force that mentality when it might not be the best course for the story does not help this Setting. Sometimes the story might benefit from a PC coming back for another game or two. But we'll never know,because we keep insisting a new character every single time is the only way this Franchise can function for some reason.

If Solas is the dominating focus of the story, then you're right and I agree with you that bringing the Inquisitor back might be best. But I hope he isn't, because I think that would be best for the setting. I'm not just blindly asking for a new protagonist because that's the trend. I want a new protagonist in a story designed around that, not a story designed around chasing Solas.

[TheRevanchist]

I built my Warden up to stop the Blight. I built my Hawke up to do right by her family and attempt to maintain stability. I built my Inquisitor up to stop Corypheus. None of that was for nothing. I don't need them to be relevant beyond their own game, but not being the protagonist doesn't mean they can't be relevant.

If Solas is the dominating focus of the story, then you're right and I agree with you that bringing the Inquisitor back might be best. But I hope he isn't, because I think that would be best for the setting. I'm not just blindly asking for a new protagonist because that's the trend. I want a new protagonist in a story designed around that, not a story designed around chasing Solas.

 

Well that is currently the story we have been given, and the story we are currently lined up to address. We have a thousand other problems in Thedas, they could have made this DLC about any of those things. They did not. They made it about Solas. If Bioware finally decides to stop being bi-polar with their writing, then it makes the most logical sense for Solas to be the primary focus of this Franchise for awhile. 

[leadintea]

That would be great, if that's the story Trespasser had sold. If Trespasser had simply been about the Qunari invasion and the Inquisitor stopping the precursor to it, then yeah, DA4 is about the north. But that isn't the story they told. The Qunari were ultimately a secondary line in Trespasser. The main narrative was confronting Solas and learning his plans. Solas is now the primary antagonist of this series and having anyone else resolve the issue would be ridiculously bad story structure. If the next DA game doesn't deal with Solas, Trespasser will have gone from being a spectacular dlc to being a narrative nightmare. "Hey I'm coming to destroy the world, enjoy what little time you have left" "Nuhuh Solas, I'm going to redeem/kill you, you'll see". Psych. Its just about a Qunari invasion. Solas is out picking daisies and frolicking in woods.

 

But as has been said before, the entirety of the DA series is to tell Thedas' storyline, not just that of a few individuals. Just as how in DAI we dealt not only with the Breach and Corypheus, but also with the issues in Fereldan and Orlais such as the mage/templar war, the Orlesian succession, and the Grey Wardens, so too will DA4 deal with issues in Tevinter. Granted, all of those stories were connected to Corypheus, which was kinda weak, but still each branched out to have their own individual impact on Thedas. Just because Solas is made up to be the antagonist does not mean he is the going to be the focal point of DA4. There are other plots that will be told, as we are in a new nation, and some of those may even supersede Solas' story and become the next central focus of the DA series, in which case, it'd be a crime to have the Inquisitor, who will have a weak connection to the stories, deal with it, instead of someone with a stronger tie to it. And as I said, I'm in favor of the Inquisitor dealing with the Solas issue, but I'd rather have a new protagonist deal with the other stories than the Inquisitor who has a tenuous tie to those plots.

[krukow]

Chasing Solas is the conflict that has been introduced. Bioware specifically did this. Your last choice is specifically framed around how it will affect FUTURE efforts against Solas. If bioware changes protagonists now, that will be awful writing.

Pay off the conflict you introduce.

[Heimdall]

I agree that having a new protagonist brings new perspectives, new characters and new fun. There's actually two separate arguments taking place here so I hope I can clarify. From what I've been reading in this thread, no one is against the idea of a new protagonist. Those of us pining for the Inquisitor are against a new protagonist finishing the Solas story.

I don't care whether or not DA4 is about Solas, Solas, as you say, I care only that I'm driving my Inquisitor when it comes to put the Solas story to bed. If we get an Awakening like expansion with the IQ to do that and then a fresh start on DA4, that would be perfectly fine.

But it's poor writing and poor form to start the next game in Tevinter with Solas as the bad guy only to have an unknown rise to power AGAIN to set the world right. This would be doubly confounded because either the IQ shows up as a cameo in which she will be out of character for us, or she doesn't show at all and sends us a stupid letter.

Lastly, as big a deal the Qunari invasion is, it does not compare in story weight to Solas bringing down the entirety of the Veil onto everyone's head, and thus killing EVERYONE. That's even worse than Cory's plan. Cory just wanted to rule as a god over a broken world. Solas will singlehandedly commit genocide against every race but his own. The only people that know about this right now are the Inquisitor and her allies.

Then the difference between us isn't whether the Inquisitor should be there at the end the Solas arc, but whether or not an NPC cameo in the final confrontation is adequate to accomplish that. I don't share the assumption that it would be terrible and out of character.

[Heimdall]

Well that is currently the story we have been given, and the story we are currently lined up to address. We have a thousand other problems in Thedas, they could have made this DLC about any of those things. They did not. They made it about Solas. If Bioware finally decides to stop being bi-polar with their writing, then it makes the most logical sense for Solas to be the primary focus of this Franchise for awhile.

If that's what Bioware does, and it's all about Solas all game long, my opinion of their writing will go down, not up. I'm certain Solas will be a major focus in DA4. I don't think that means he will necessarily be the primary antagonist or that there won't be more going on.

[Steelcan]

Chasing Solas is the conflict that has been introduced. Bioware specifically did this. Your last choice is specifically framed around how it will affect FUTURE efforts against Solas. If bioware changes protagonists now, that will be awful writing.

Pay off the conflict you introduce.

not necessarily, Trespasser set up his conflict, but there's no reason a future character won't have good reason to go after him.  Perhaps a person whose family/community was killed by Solas or his followers and they then join the Inquisition (either officially or the underground equivalent)

[whiteravenxi]

Then the difference between us isn't whether the Inquisitor should be there at the end the Solas arc, but whether or not an NPC cameo in the final confrontation is adequate to accomplish that. I don't share the assumption that it would be terrible and out of character.

 

For sure. We can agree to disagree there. The Hawke cameo was awful for me. She was angry and quick tempered, yet I had played her a jokester. It was only made worse by the bug where it changed my IQ's voice for nearly two months because of the Hawke default appearance issue. I have zero faith Bioware can pull off a decent cameo to resolve this story thread. It will be awful, contrived, and our new protagonist won't even know what's going on.

 

If that's what Bioware does, and it's all about Solas all game long, my opinion of their writing will go down, not up.

 

Mine will go up. You finish the story you introduce. Otherwise this DLC should have emphatically ended the IQ's storyline. But it didn't. 

[leadintea]

Chasing Solas is the conflict that has been introduced. Bioware specifically did this. Your last choice is specifically framed around how it will affect FUTURE efforts against Solas. If bioware changes protagonists now, that will be awful writing.

Pay off the conflict you introduce.

 

It was a conflict tied specifically to the Inquisitor, not anyone else, and it wasn't the only conflict brought up, such as the Grey Warden disappearance in Weisshaupt and the Qunari invasion, which has refocused its efforts on bringing down Tevinter.

[krukow]

not necessarily, Trespasser set up his conflict, but there's no reason a future character won't have good reason to go after him.  Perhaps a person whose family/community was killed by Solas or his followers and they then join the Inquisition (either officially or the underground equivalent)

That's terrible writing. They've set up conflict between characters, but instead of paying it off, they move to a new character who has no motivation to go after Solas. And if they do what you said, then guess what - all that stuff we just did is meaningless. It means nothing to the narrative because Solas is going to be resolved for completely different reasons. All the events so far? Completely meaningless.

Switching protagonists now, after the events of the DLC we all paid for, is crappy writing.

[Heimdall]

That's terrible writing. They've set up conflict between characters, but instead of paying it off, they move to a new character who has no motivation to go after Solas. And if they do what you said, then guess what - all that stuff we just did is meaningless. It means nothing to the narrative because Solas is going to be resolved for completely different reasons. All the events so far? Completely meaningless.

Switching protagonists now, after the events of the DLC we all paid for, is crappy writing.

They can pay it off without being the Protagonist. That's what we're arguing.

[Steelcan]

That's terrible writing. They've set up conflict between characters, but instead of paying it off, they move to a new character who has no motivation to go after Solas. And if they do what you said, then guess what - all that stuff we just did is meaningless. It means nothing to the narrative because Solas is going to be resolved for completely different reasons. All the events so far? Completely meaningless.

Switching protagonists now, after the events of the DLC we all paid for, is crappy writing.

The Inquisitor's story is done, they aren't in a position to be fighting on the front lines anymore, crossbow-hands notwithstanding, the Inquisition as an organization and by extension the Inquisitor is still leading the fight against him, its just going to fall to someone new to strike the killing blow, and there is nothing wrong in that just as there was nothing wrong with Hawke giving way to the Inquisitor.

 

My biggest fear would be that they then have this new protagonist try and become and even bigger figure than the Herald of Andraste

[Heimdall]

For sure. We can agree to disagree there. The Hawke cameo was awful for me. She was angry and quick tempered, yet I had played her a jokester. It was only made worse by the bug where it changed my IQ's voice for nearly two months because of the Hawke default appearance issue. I have zero faith Bioware can pull off a decent cameo to resolve this story thread. It will be awful, contrived, and our new protagonist won't even know what's going on.

Doing it badly once doesn't mean it can't be done, especially when they've set themselves up for it much better with the decisions you can make in Trespasser.

Mine will go up. You finish the story you introduce. Otherwise this DLC should have emphatically ended the IQ's storyline. But it didn't.

I think they should finish the story they introduced too, I just think they can do that with a new protagonist.

[Faust1979]

It doesn't matter to me really as long as it fits the story, it worked for Mass Effect but Dragon Age is completely different, all three games are different stories really so that demands a new protagonist each time.  It kinda felt like the first Dragon Age was made with the intent of it being one off maybe they weren't sure if it would become a franchise.  It can be a bit more fun creating a brand new character from the outset and I am liking the Inquisitor more than the Warden

[whiteravenxi]

Doing it badly once doesn't mean it can't be done, especially when they've set themselves up for it much better with the decisions you can make in Trespasser.
I think they should finish the story they introduced too, I just think they can do that with a new protagonist.

 

Right but it wasn't done badly once. Hawke is just one example. The Allistair cameos are always just fan service and always reset us back to meeting him for the first time. We can never ask him more than surface questions. Morrigan appearing in Inquisition was clumsy; her reason for not being with my Warden even clumsier. She LOVED my Warden. You can hear it in her voice and yet she's not with him? 

 

Nor is my Warden involved with any of the Warden corruption at the heart of his order? Hawke decides to not help in the final fight with Cory even though it was her blood that freed him? 

These are continuity issues exacerbated by placing the story time lines too close together. If we jumped ahead a good Age in each game I'd have no problem.

 

I don't think they can finish the story they introduced with a new protagonist. What you're describing is pulling a one-armed Luke Skywalker out before Return of the Jedi and having some unknown pick up his light saber to fight Vader. That end scene now has zero meaning the other instalments worked so hard for. I get that you want to start fresh, but it's not worth sacrificing the emotional payoff for it.

[krukow]

If the inquisitor's story is "over", why is the very last moment of the game him stating a mission and showing where he's going (tevinter). One person explain to me how "we're going to [place x] on a mission to save the world" is a conclusion to a story. That's RIDICULOUS.

[Heimdall]

Right but it wasn't done badly once. Hawke is just one example. The Allistair cameos are always just fan service and always reset us back to meeting him for the first time. We can never ask him more than surface questions. Morrigan appearing in Inquisition was clumsy; her reason for not being with my Warden even clumsier. She LOVED my Warden. You can hear it in her voice and yet she's not with him?

Nor is my Warden involved with any of the Warden corruption at the heart of his order? Hawke decides to not help in the final fight with Cory even though it was her blood that freed him?

These are continuity issues exacerbated by placing the story time lines too close together. If we jumped ahead a good Age in each game I'd have no problem.

I don't think they can finish the story they introduced with a new protagonist. It's like pulling a one-armed Luke Skywalker out before Return of the Jedi and having some unknown pick up his light saber to fight Vader. That end scene now has zero meaning the other instalments worked so hard for.

Here's the thing, Bioware was limited in their writing because of variables. Morrigan might not have a Warden lover. The Warden could be dead. Hawke could die at Adamant, though I would agree that was poorly handled.

But the Inquisitor? The Inquisitor is always alive and always after Solas. Knowing whether they want him dead or alive (+Romance or not) tells them all they need to know when writing a decent interaction between them. That's why I think it could work.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Right but it wasn't done badly once. Hawke is just one example. The Allistair cameos are always just fan service and always reset us back to meeting him for the first time. We can never ask him more than surface questions. Morrigan appearing in Inquisition was clumsy; her reason for not being with my Warden even clumsier. She LOVED my Warden. You can hear it in her voice and yet she's not with him? 

 

Nor is my Warden involved with any of the Warden corruption at the heart of his order? Hawke decides to not help in the final fight with Cory even though it was her blood that freed him? 

These are continuity issues exacerbated by placing the story time lines too close together. If we jumped ahead a good Age in each game I'd have no problem.

 

I don't think they can finish the story they introduced with a new protagonist. It's like pulling a one-armed Luke Skywalker out before Return of the Jedi and having some unknown pick up his light saber to fight Vader. That end scene now has zero meaning the other instalments worked so hard for. I get that you want to start fresh, but it's not worth sacrificing the emotional payoff for it.

 

You're assuming that the Inquisitor won't be around to feature heavily in the confrontation with Solas. Wait until DA 4 to make that call. 

[AresKeith]

You're assuming that the Inquisitor won't be around to feature heavily in the confrontation with Solas. Wait until DA 4 to make that call. 

 

Hell it might even happen in the DA game after that

[BansheeOwnage]

I've already said why it has to be the inquisitor. It absolutely has to be.

 

I don't frankly care what they decided some ten or so years ago, about characters only getting 1 game, and any loose ends after that game are **** out of luck. Who cares about emotional closure for these characters, who cares if they have dangling threads hanging over your heads, who cares about whatever sequel bait we give you using said character. Any and all loose ends we may or may not acknowledge about said characters are irrelevant because "Thedas is the character" (which does not really say anything, or even really justify's why characters only get 1 whole game). All the characters do is clean up the mess the last one left, and by the time there done, there is juuuuust enough time left for THEM to make their own mess so the NEXT guy has something to clean up for the next 2/3 of the next game. It is frankly a pointless pattern of repetition with the next convenient Baddy Of The Week to harasses you. Nothing really happens, there is no overarching plot, or threat, because everything HAS to be tied up in a cute little bow just enough so the world will limp on long enough for the next character to get their shot in the revolving door of relevance.

 

Solas is clearly someone that was planned from Day 1 of Dragon Age Origins. There is evidence everywhere to support that line of thought. This is the first time this setting has actually had a bad guy that can be more than just Baddy Of The Week. But by continuing this pattern of Revolving Door heroes, they remove all emotional investment the characters have regarding the figure in question. The new characters don't have the emotional baggage that will make fighting them so worthwhile to begin with. Sure the players have it to some degree, but not as much as they would be if the character remained the same until that particular bit of baggage is stored away. Shepard is the best example of this. Replace Solas with Saren/The Reapers. would you have really been all that invested if Shepard ACTUALLY died in ME2, and got replaced by either Miranda or Jacob? Then they die or get crippled or w/e and another guy took over in ME3 to finish the fight? I highly doubt you would have been. Particular antagonists are linked to particular protagonists, due to actions over the course of the story. Simply slotting another guy in to deal with him diminishes the experience in ways I cannot express. 

 

Solas is linked, irreparably to the Inquisitor due to their interactions. He played you, utterly and completely. You were a tool, not even a person to him. A bug who destroying is a mercy he wishes to grant you, because to him your life has no value or meaning. He tricked you into cleaning up the mess of his failed plan to destroy you and everyone you ever knew. You were nothing but a pawn on his chess board, all while possibly whispering sweet nothings into your ear and telling you how important you are to him. This is betrayal of the deepest levels. things that rock a person to their very core. Your character declared, in no uncertain terms, that they are coming for him, because of what he did. What he did not just to the world, or what he plans to do to it, but what he did to you. It is Revenge, it is Closure, it is Justice, it is Love, it is Rage. It is all of these things. The whole game was not about Corypheus, he was merely a side affect of the cause. The Inquisition was formed to close the Breach, to find and stop those responsible, and restore order to the chaos, with or without anyone's approval. That duty has not been fulfilled. The culprit is still out there, and has no plans to stop. This story is not over. The Warden's story IS over. Hawke's story IS over. THIS one though....is not over. It is in fact, just beginning. Because the gloves are off, no more masks, no more deceptions. Everyone knows who the players are now. Now....now the real battle begins. 

Wow, that was a great post. It explained everything perfectly. I wish the devs could read it. I feel like linking it when this debate springs up. Well done.

 

- BANSHEE GREATLY APPROVES