1659 réponses à ce sujet

[Former_Fiend]

Well, the 'preventing chaos' example was just an example, I obviously have no idea what the story will be. Maybe the new protag's role will be to incite a slave rebellion in Tevinter to distract/impress Solas/prove that the world has something worth preserving (depending on the stop/save Solas arc) while the Inquisitor looks for him? Edit: In fact, as Reznore said, I think it far more likely we'll be upsetting the status quo in the next game than preserving it.

 

As for your second point, agree to disagree. I believe there are already enough inherent contrasts, both in terms of position/experience and indeed gameplay, to make the characters anything but 'virtual clones' - but as for ethical outlook etc, I absolutely think that is up to the player. At any rate, I believe that if the next game is in Tevinter, there's a chance that we'll be race-locked somehow. I can't see Elven non mages or Qunari gaining much traction in Minrathous. They'd be stabbed in the face by a hundred guards as soon as they pull a sword/bow. If so, there's another contrast.

 

You'll have to let me know how that works if that turns out to be the case. 

[AllThatJazz]

 

I suppose, but there are some real unfortunate implications with a Southerner being the one to come up and change things in Tevinter instead of a native. 

 

And that leads into this whole other issue I have where people make the rivalry with Solas so all encompassing that I feel the Inquisitor going up to Tevinter would have serious tunnel vision on Solas - whether the player is invested in that or not. Where as a new protagonist will actually be someone who cares about Tevinter's problems, and be invested in the land and it's people, not in one man. 

 

The new protag could be a Tevinter native, and thus have a vested interest in what's happening there, while the Inquisitor follows the Solas plot, because of their vested interest in that. 

Ok, as for the pc caring about Solas. That's not really need. The pc only need to care about what he is doing. The question is if the pc does anything about it and why.

 

What if Solas has a good reason for doing what he is doing and the pc finds out and want to help him. What if the pc what to help the qun stop Solas over siding with the inquisition? Or with tevinter?

 

It may not be as simple as stopping Solas.

But if the only pov that matters (whether to stop/save/help Solas) is the pov of the new protag, then what was the point of Bioware trying to build up the connection between Solas and and Inquisitor? Thay've basically wasted their time, and ours, by creating a dynamic (and indeed a cliffhanger) that will be rendered totally irrelevant in the next game. That, in essence, is why some are arguing for a dual protag. To allow that dynamic to continue.

[AllThatJazz]

You'll have to let me know how that works if that turns out to be the case. 

Well, who knows? It's all supposition, guesswork and argument at this point. Hell, if the point of the game is to incite rebellion, maybe we'll have to play as an Elf

 

Let's face it, the chances are that we'll get a new protag and only a new protag, the game will follow a very similar formula to those that came before, the only choice will be to stop Solas, the Inquisitor will turn up as a cameo right at the end to give new guy a round of applause and a medal, and I'll be the one skipping purchase while you get the game you want.

[leaguer of one]

 

But if the only pov that matters (whether to stop/save/help Solas) is the pov of the new protag, then what was the point of Bioware trying to build up the connection between Solas and and Inquisitor? Thay've basically wasted their time, and ours, by creating a dynamic (and indeed a cliffhanger) that will be rendered totally irrelevant in the next game. That, in essence, is why some are arguing for a dual protag. To allow that dynamic to continue.

To tell Solas' portion of the story to the viewer , answer questions, and link to the next direction of the plot. Remember, the inquisitor is just a herald, of what and of whom differ from person to person, but in the end just the herald. Their story is about revealing the truth in a lot of things and to tell what is coming next. The quis may try to stop what going on but the point of there story is not stopping what going on.

[Former_Fiend]

The new protag could be a Tevinter native, and thus have a vested interest in what's happening there, while the Inquisitor follows the Solas plot, because of their vested interest in that. 

 

But if the only pov that matters (whether to stop/save/help Solas) is the pov of the new protag, then what was the point of Bioware trying to build up the connection between Solas and and Inquisitor? Thay've basically wasted their time, and ours, by creating a dynamic (and indeed a cliffhanger) that will be rendered totally irrelevant in the next game. That, in essence, is why some are arguing for a dual protag. To allow that dynamic to continue.

 

If the plots are so separated as to be dealt with with separate protagonists, then maybe they should be separate games. 

 

And, of course, I'm of the opinion that they did waste everyone's time, but we're not going to see eye-to-eye on that. 

 

 

Well, who knows? It's all supposition, guesswork and argument at this point. Hell, if the point of the game is to incite rebellion, maybe we'll have to play as an Elf

 

Let's face it, the chances are that we'll get a new protag and only a new protag, the game will follow a very similar formula to those that came before, the only choice will be to stop Solas, the Inquisitor will turn up as a cameo right at the end to give new guy a round of applause and a medal, and I'll be the one skipping purchase while you get the game you want.

 

Well, at least that's one thing we're of like mind on.

[AllThatJazz]

If the plots are so separated as to be dealt with with separate protagonists, then maybe they should be separate games. 

 

And, of course, I'm of the opinion that they did waste everyone's time, but we're not going to see eye-to-eye on that. 

 

 

 

Well, at least that's one thing we're of like mind on.

And I don't think it necessary to make them separate games. Clever writers (and PW is a very clever writer) can weave stories together in interesting and meaningful ways that make sense to both players and characters. GTAV did it, I am of the opinion that Bioware is good enough to do it too.

 

Yep, well, we're both pretty entrenched in our viewpoints, and any more arguing is probably going to end up making me cross, which isn't how I want to spend my Friday night, so I'll bow out here.  

 

To tell Solas' portion of the story to the viewer , answer questions, and link to the next direction of the plot. Remember, the inquisitor is just a herald, of what and of whom differ from person to person, but in the end just the herald. Their story is about revealing the truth in a lot of things and to tell what is coming next. The quis may try to stop what going on but the point of there story is not stopping what going on.

Well, they'll have to do a better job than they did with Corypheus. Hawke had the personal connection with him, which was then abandoned in favour of trying to 'recreate' a connection between Cory and Inquisitor, but (for me anyway) it just didn't work. Cory would have been a far more meaningful villain if being faced down by Hawke.

 

For me, the greatest of Bioware's villains have been those with whom a personal connection has been established, so Li, Irenicus, Revan, Howe, Loghain. Not the Reapers, Meredith, Corypheus.

[Former_Fiend]

I love GTA V, but at the end of the day it's a very different game from DA. Not counting heist approaches and a couple of side missions, you make a grand total of one decision in the game that affects anything, and that's at the end. Micheal, Trevor, and Franklin all have very distinct personalities with their own contrasts and parallels that we don't get to control; I just don't see that formula as being compatible with a decision based game like the ones Bioware puts out.

 

Not to mention, the Rockstar team had experience with the interwoven stories with GTA IV and it's DLC's. I think Bioware trying this with no real experience would be perhaps too ambitious. 

[leaguer of one]

 

Well, they'll have to do a better job than they did with Corypheus. Hawke had the personal connection with him, which was then abandoned in favour of trying to 'recreate' a connection between Cory and Inquisitor, but (for me anyway) it just didn't work. Cory would have been a far more meaningful villain if being faced down by Hawke.

 

For me, the greatest of Bioware's villains have been those with whom a personal connection has been established, so Li, Irenicus, Revan, Howe, Loghain. Not the Reapers, Meredith, Corypheus.

That's the funny thing with Cory...He was never truly the villain. It was Solas. Remember Merrill's story about the dread wolf?

 

Sounds familiar?

 

For me, Solas is the best villain bw has ever made. I remember once someone made a topic asking if they could have a villain the pc could romanced....Alot joked at it......And now it happened.

[AllThatJazz]

That's the funny thing with Cory...He was never truly the villain. It was Solas. Remember Merrill's story about the dread wolf?

 

Sounds familiar?

 

For me, Solas is the best villain bw has ever made. I remember once someone made a topic asking if they could have a villain the pc could romanced....Alot joked at it......And now it happened.

Yes, I know. The Trespasser reveal of which is the thing that 'saved' Corypheus for me. But for me, to have a new protag resolve the Solas plotline without any involvement from a playable Inquisitor (frankly I don't care if we only get to play the Inquisitor for an hour or two throughout the entire game, as long as I'm in control when that resolution happens), would be as profoundly unsatisfying as I felt Cory was until the 'it's really Solas!' reveal.

 

And I agree - or at least I think Solas has the potential to be Bioware's best villain ever. But I cannot see how I'm supposed to get that with just a new protag, who doesn't know anything about Solas. They don't get to see what the Inquisitor saw. They just see the Big Bad out to destroy the world, which is why I think the Inquisitor's continued input is a better route (not solely, but as well). 

 

And FormerFiend - I agree that it's ambitious. I like ambition. I believe that something truly special is worth striving for, even if they risk failure. You don't get experience without trying things. There was a point where Rockstar had never done the multi protag thing, but decided to give it a go, and it worked. It's the same thing over and over and over (and over) that I find frustrating, not to mention it becomes dull and unimaginative in the end.

 

Ack, I told myself I wasn't going to engage anymore, but clearly I'm weak. I'm going to cheer myself up (or not) with Life is Strange.

[Former_Fiend]

I've often pushed for Bioware to try different things, push boundaries, and in general be ambitious in their goals. So when I say something is "too ambitious", it isn't something I throw out there lightly.

 

And that same argument of "you don't get better without trying new things" could be applied to the use of previous protagonists as NPC's, as well. They tried it with Hawke and it was unsatisfactory. They try again, maybe they do a better job with some experience under their belt.

 

Sorry for continuing the communication; by all means, take a day or two to step away from the thread. Lord knows I have to do that sometimes.

[leaguer of one]

Yes, I know. The Trespasser reveal of which is the thing that 'saved' Corypheus for me. But for me, to have a new protag resolve the Solas plotline without any involvement from a playable Inquisitor (frankly I don't care if we only get to play the Inquisitor for an hour or two throughout the entire game, as long as I'm in control when that resolution happens), would be as profoundly unsatisfying as I felt Cory was until the 'it's really Solas!' reveal.

 

And I agree - or at least I think Solas has the potential to be Bioware's best villain ever. But I cannot see how I'm supposed to get that with just a new protag, who doesn't know anything about Solas. They don't get to see what the Inquisitor saw. They just see the Big Bad out to destroy the world, which is why I think the Inquisitor's continued input is a better route (not solely, but as well). 

 

And FormerFiend - I agree that it's ambitious. I like ambition. I believe that something truly special is worth striving for, even if they risk failure. You don't get experience without trying things. There was a point where Rockstar had never done the multi protag thing, but decided to give it a go, and it worked. It's the same thing over and over and over (and over) that I find frustrating, not to mention it becomes dull and unimaginative in the end.

 

Ack, I told myself I wasn't going to engage anymore, but clearly I'm weak. I'm going to cheer myself up (or not) with Life is Strange.

The answer is simple..

 

The magneto route. You're ether with him or ageist him. Added, it not the only problem the pc is going to face nor the only villain.

[AllThatJazz]

I've often pushed for Bioware to try different things, push boundaries, and in general be ambitious in their goals. So when I say something is "too ambitious", it isn't something I throw out there lightly.

 

And that same argument of "you don't get better without trying new things" could be applied to the use of previous protagonists as NPC's, as well. They tried it with Hawke and it was unsatisfactory. They try again, maybe they do a better job with some experience under their belt.

 

Sorry for continuing the communication; by all means, take a day or two to step away from the thread. Lord knows I have to do that sometimes.

This is true, but they've made their job much more difficult by having the Inquisitor be so much more a blank slate, by allowing so much more leeway in terms of motivation. A lot of nuance will inevitably be lost.

 

I think with DA2 the problem was ultimately time and budget. The bones of a terrific game were there, but Bioware was given 18 months (or less) and a shoestring budget. With DAI's time and resources, and a brilliant new lead (yes, I am a bit of a Weekes fan) I think there's reason to be optimistic that they could succeed in something more ambitious. 

 

Note to self: STOP, PLS STOP POSTING.

[Reznore57]

I'm not interested in two protagonist at all.

I've played games with different protag like Telltale Games of Thrones , and it's alright.It's a bit jarring because you know whatever story you have going on with  protag x will end on a cliffhanger to jump to protag y , protag y story is also going to end cliffhanger to jump to protag z etc...

 

It was the same in Witcher 3 from what I saw on Youtube .

Anyway in both cases witcher 3 or Telltale game , those protags are well defined .

In witcher 3 , Ciri story was linear , she was basically a npc you could play , just like you could play Joker in ME2 ...

And anyway Ciri was tied to Geralt , and both had personal goal with the storyline.

 

I mean imagine playing the Inquisitor and an agent of the Inquisition , it's not Ciri/Gerald , it's Inquisitor/Scout Harding level of things...that's not what I call exciting.

[Former_Fiend]

This is true, but they've made their job much more difficult by having the Inquisitor be so much more a blank slate, by allowing so much more leeway in terms of motivation. A lot of nuance will inevitably be lost.

 

I think with DA2 the problem was ultimately time and budget. The bones of a terrific game were there, but Bioware was given 18 months (or less) and a shoestring budget. With DAI's time and resources, and a brilliant new lead (yes, I am a bit of a Weekes fan) I think there's reason to be optimistic that they could succeed in something more ambitious. 

 

Note to self: STOP, PLS STOP POSTING.

 

For the most part, I agree with you in regards to DA2. I think it had a lot of good ideas and was hampered by time and a lack of money behind it.

 

At the same time, frankly I'm kind of glad that it failed. If only because, as much as I did like Hawke, I would have hated if Hawke had become the Shepard of the Dragon Age universe and been our main character for every game to come after it. I wouldn't have wanted the Warden, who is hands down my favorite of the protagonists, to remain the pc, either.

 

I love the idea of there being a new protagonist each game in Dragon Age. For me it isn't a "this is how things have always been done" thing; it's a "I like it and I don't want them to take it away from me" thing.

[actionhero112]

Any involvement of the inquisitor as a playable member of DA4 would weaken the narrative of that game, specifically the agency of the protagonist. It would be jarring to jump from the control of one character to another, even just once. 

 

The only way I see it being acceptable is in an intro sequence, where you confront Solas and he kills your inquisitor or you join him. 

 

We don't need  the involvement of the inquisitor or inquisition to defeat Solas meaningfully. The great thing about a threat that threatens the entire world, is that it affects the entire world. People just want it to be the inquisitor that decides what happens to Solas. 

[Former_Fiend]

I'm not interested in two protagonist at all.

I've played games with different protag like Telltale Games of Thrones , and it's alright.It's a bit jarring because you know whatever story you have going on with  protag x will end on a cliffhanger to jump to protag y , protag y story is also going to end cliffhanger to jump to protag z etc...

 

It was the same in Witcher 3 from what I saw on Youtube .

Anyway in both cases witcher 3 or Telltale game , those protags are well defined .

In witcher 3 , Ciri story was linear , she was basically a npc you could play , just like you could play Joker in ME2 ...

And anyway Ciri was tied to Geralt , and both had personal goal with the storyline.

 

I mean imagine playing the Inquisitor and an agent of the Inquisition , it's not Ciri/Gerald , it's Inquisitor/Scout Harding level of things...that's not what I call exciting.

 

I'm hoping - very strongly - that the new protagonist, whether dual or otherwise, is not an agent of the Inquisition at all. The last thing I want is to be shackled to the Inquisition and it's values, and what it represents. 

 

If anything, I would hope to be able to work counter to Inquisition interests.

[midnight tea]

I'm not interested in two protagonist at all.

I've played games with different protag like Telltale Games of Thrones , and it's alright.It's a bit jarring because you know whatever story you have going on with  protag x will end on a cliffhanger to jump to protag y , protag y story is also going to end cliffhanger to jump to protag z etc...

 

It was the same in Witcher 3 from what I saw on Youtube .

Anyway in both cases witcher 3 or Telltale game , those protags are well defined .

In witcher 3 , Ciri story was linear , she was basically a npc you could play , just like you could play Joker in ME2 ...

And anyway Ciri was tied to Geralt , and both had personal goal with the storyline.

 

I mean imagine playing the Inquisitor and an agent of the Inquisition , it's not Ciri/Gerald , it's Inquisitor/Scout Harding level of things...that's not what I call exciting.

 

 

What's about stopping Solas that isn't relatively linear or well-defined? What's about their goal that isn't personal as well? It's as is not more personal to stop Solas to Inquisitor than it will ever be to a new character - be it on a negative (betrayal, lies, infiltartion, using Inky as a pawn) or positive (a friend, a lover, regarding Solas as being capable or necessary for the world to move on). 

 

I also don't see how they wouldn't be able to at least add flavor to Inquisitors vie sections we get to control them or dialogue options to choose. With clever writing the nuance for their personality can be added for us to pick, even if the story remains relatively linear.

[mistermutiny1989]

I think if there is a dragon age after the following release we need to slow down and have a protagonist that covers a trilogy like Shepard in Mass Effect. There's something so iconic about him/her no matter how you play him/her. There's a reason fans dub Shepard Space Jesus. We need that connection with a Dragon Age protagonist and I think a trilogy will do that.

[midnight tea]

Any involvement of the inquisitor as a playable member of DA4 would weaken the narrative of that game, specifically the agency of the protagonist. It would be jarring to jump from the control of one character to another, even just once. 

 

This argument is beyond weak - if the story is well written, I don't see how switching form one protag to another could be any more jarring than getting to a large story beat on main crit path.

 

And if DA4 character would be written as someone who Inquisitor truly needs to achieve their goals, or they're the actual solution to many of their problems, I don't see how it's in any way a threat to their agency.

 

In fact, the agency of a protagonist would indeed be endangered if it turned out that at all times they were a pawn moved from behind the scene by Inquisitor or someone else, and they're not even that important to interact with them (other than a mission board or a proxy) - and if not a pawn, then likely the ones that were being caught in a personal conflict between an ancient figure form legends and one of the most prominent heroes of modern Thedas.

 

 

 

We don't need  the involvement of the inquisitor or inquisition to defeat Solas meaningfully. The great thing about a threat that threatens the entire world, is that it affects the entire world. People just want it to be the inquisitor that decides what happens to Solas. 

 

... You're saying it as if Solas was just side-quest character, or as if you expect that he will be dealt in the background... Yeah, I don't see it being done, considering that Solas is one of the most important characters of all DA universe - one who created the Veil and now intends to tear it. Whoever deals with him (or has an influence on him) is therefore as important to the overall story and to Thedas itself.

[Former_Fiend]

I think if there is a dragon age after the following release we need to slow down and have a protagonist that covers a trilogy like Shepard in Mass Effect. There's something so iconic about him/her no matter how you play him/her. There's a reason fans dub Shepard Space Jesus. We need that connection with a Dragon Age protagonist and I think a trilogy will do that.

 

And that reason was mostly mocking.

 

Seriously, not just no, but hell no.

[Morroian]

I've often pushed for Bioware to try different things, push boundaries, and in general be ambitious in their goals. So when I say something is "too ambitious", it isn't something I throw out there lightly.

 

And that same argument of "you don't get better without trying new things" could be applied to the use of previous protagonists as NPC's, as well. They tried it with Hawke and it was unsatisfactory. They try again, maybe they do a better job with some experience under their belt.

 

DA2 was unsatisfactory because it was rushed out. Hawke remains my favourite protagonist of the franchise.

[Iakus]

I think if there is a dragon age after the following release we need to slow down and have a protagonist that covers a trilogy like Shepard in Mass Effect. There's something so iconic about him/her no matter how you play him/her. There's a reason fans dub Shepard Space Jesus. We need that connection with a Dragon Age protagonist and I think a trilogy will do that.

"Space Jesus" is a derisive term for Shepard.  This one person who proves to be a messiah for all of existence.  I'm pretty sure we don't need that for Thedas.  My Inquisitor is already the Herald of Andraste.  I don't need him to be Thedas Jesus too.

 

If you want iconic stuff for Thedas, look at the setting itself:  mabari, high dragons, darkspawn, the Grey Wardens, nugs, etc.

[leaguer of one]

I think if there is a dragon age after the following release we need to slow down and have a protagonist that covers a trilogy like Shepard in Mass Effect. There's something so iconic about him/her no matter how you play him/her. There's a reason fans dub Shepard Space Jesus. We need that connection with a Dragon Age protagonist and I think a trilogy will do that.

No. The story is about thedas. not one character.

[Former_Fiend]

DA2 was unsatisfactory because it was rushed out. Hawke remains my favourite protagonist of the franchise.

 

I rather enjoyed DA2 and I like Hawke. When I say "They tried it with Hawke", what I meant was "They tried bringing in Hawke as an NPC and Hawke's NPC appearance didn't satisfy people."

 

That being said, I am still very glad that Hawke was not the protagonist of DAI as was originally intended, just as I am glad that the Warden(my personal favorite) wasn't the protagonist of DA2.

[Blooddrunk1004]

I think if there is a dragon age after the following release we need to slow down and have a protagonist that covers a trilogy like Shepard in Mass Effect. There's something so iconic about him/her no matter how you play him/her. There's a reason fans dub Shepard Space Jesus. We need that connection with a Dragon Age protagonist and I think a trilogy will do that.

I've never considered Shepard to be "Space Jesus" until Catalyst forced it on us.

We don't need another one in Thedas, Inquisitor was already slowly becoming until he/she became vulnerable in Trespasser thanks to mark. I would welcome more Dragon Age games with same playable protagonist any day though.