1659 réponses à ce sujet

[Eivuwan]

 

Yeah, Tevinter and the Qun are the two most single interesting parts of the setting to me. Seeing them going at it, especially if we have the option to pick sides or play both sides against each other? That sounds like a hell of a lot of fun.

 

Solas is a guy bent on destroying the world for vaguely sympathetic reasons. Lemme go over to tvtropes and find you another hundred of them. I'll admit Solas is a fairly well done version of that trope, but still.

 

I'm honestly reminded of Skyrim -approps, since DAI was very reminiscent of Oblivion - where the more interesting plot was the Civil War, even though more focus was given to the return of the Dragons. Solas playing the part of Alduin in this particular production. Now, personally I would hope that the plots are given equal importance and neither gets the Mage/Templar treatment where it's settled in the first act with a matter of "choose one!" But that's just me.

 

Also, Solas actually succeeding in taking down the veil is literally the last thing I want to see in this setting. I want to see Par Vollen, Rivain, Antiva, Nevarra, the Anderfels, and what lies beyond the sea, in that order. And I want to see them as they exist now, not in the aftermath of the removal of the Veil, however much or little destruction as that might cause.

 

After all of that, then sure, by all means, tear the veil down and give us immortal elves and magic-using dwarves and whatever comes with it. Just not before I've seen the rest of the setting in it's "before" state to be able to appreciate it.

 

 

You have a point here. I think the veil should come down sooner or later. It's an artificial shield that is spread throughout the world and it's hard to imagine that it won't break by itself at some point. This is especially true since very few people actually knows how to maintain the veil.

[Eivuwan]

I also want to respond to some of the common arguments that people have made for having a new protagonist.

 

1) The next story might not be about Solas and the veil.

 

Considering that Solas is going to bring down the veil in a few years, there hardly seems to be enough time to squeeze in some other major event in between. Besides, the Inquisitor has already began his/her mission to stop Solas as seen by the last cut scene in Trespasser. Also, there is something very jarring about mucking around with Tevinter vs. Qunari or whatever while you know that there is impending world destruction. If there is going to be a Qunari vs. Tevinter war or a slave uprising, these should be background conflicts instead of the primary event. If those conflicts exist, I imagine that they would be treated like the Mage Templar war in DAI.

 

2) Another PC stopping Solas would further make him understand that the people of modern Thedas are people too.

 

Unless you were playing assquisitor, Solas is already convinced that the people of modern Thedas are people. He doesn't need another person to tell him that. His dilemma is that for some reason, he believes that bringing down the veil is the only way to "save" his people. The Inquisitor will also probably "save" the modern people over the ancient elves if there were no other option. Neither group is somehow more valuable than the other. It's just a shitty situation that has no good solution as Solas believes. Also, even if you were playing assquisitor or don't care for redeeming Solas, the writers still have the responsibility to account for those who want to redeem him, especially since we were given the option to attempt that.

 

3) Solas threatens everyone and not just the Inquisitor.

 

Yes that is true, but the story will likely be less nuanced if Solas confronts a new PC. Weekes wrote the Solas Lavellan romance just to make him seem more sympathetic. Even though some players don't care about Solas or think he's just pure evil/psycho, it is clear that this was not the writer's intention. Solas was likely written as your companion/friend/potential lover/rival in order for you to care about him (whether love or hate) and not just defeat him as some generic big bad. The writers may not have reached every player with this intent, but they reached probably at least half of the player base and it would be irresponsible to get your players attached to a character/relationship and then ignore it in the next game when there is no closure in the current game. One could argue that they could rebuild such a relationship with a new PC, but that's frankly a waste of time considering that they have already spent a whole game doing that. Honestly, I don't want a repeat of the Corypheus situation in which I knew I had to stop him, but could care less about him either way.

 

4) Finally, I will talk about the dual protagonist option.

 

I will take this over nothing, but I still feel that it is not as clean as just having the inquisitor be the only PC for the next game. Having the new PC be the main playable character still has all the problems that I noted in the previous paragraphs. I think that if I were playing the new PC most of the time, I would just be thinking about how the Inquisitor will likely have more interesting and emotional reactions to events because of his/her previous knowledge about Solas.

[Morroian]

Considering that the material connection between Hawke and Corypheus cannot possibly rival that of between Solas and Inquisitor (no matter if they were liked or disliked) I can't see a way of the game establishing anything of equivalent weight - that is, unless we spend enough time to re-establish connection and re-tell story again OR do so in backstory not controlled by the player in any large extent.

 

That depends on how you role played the relationship. There can essentially be a similar relationship to that between Hawke and Cory if you played it that way.

 

People keep bringing up how DA4 could be mainly focused around a Qunari invasion of Tevinter, but how is that plot-line even remotely interesting? The Qun is something that few players agree with or can even relate to. It will be just be "we have to fight some bad guys." Solas' plan to take down the veil is a lot more interesting in my opinion because of the world changing impact that it has. There is also the inquisitor's personal connection to him and the controversy over what kind of person he is. Heck, I want to see the veil come down, but without all the destruction. It will completely change the landscape of Thedas, which is refreshing to me. If there are going be other plot-lines aside from the Solas arc, it should be about a slave uprising because that is something that is directly related to Solas' ideals. As for the possible Qunari vs. Tevinter war, I can care less. I don't even know which side to support because one is an elitist slave owning society and the other is a culture that hates freewill.

 

Yeah I'm a big lore person so the Solas plot is inherently more interesting to me despite my misgivings about having the Inquisitor come back. To me the Qunari and Tevinter are both as bad as each other.

[Former_Fiend]

I also want to respond to some of the common arguments that people have made for having a new protagonist.

 

1) The next story might not be about Solas and the veil.

 

Considering that Solas is going to bring down the veil in a few years, there hardly seems to be enough time to squeeze in some other major event in between. Besides, the Inquisitor has already began his/her mission to stop Solas as seen by the last cut scene in Trespasser. Also, there is something very jarring about mucking around with Tevinter vs. Qunari or whatever while you know that there is impending world destruction. If there is going to be a Qunari vs. Tevinter war or a slave uprising, these should be background conflicts instead of the primary event. If those conflicts exist, I imagine that they would be treated like the Mage Templar war in DAI.

 

Alright, where to start with this. Well go with timeline. DAO takes place over the span of a year. DAI takes place over the span of a year, year and a half. A few years, if we define "a few" as "three to five", is plenty of time for there to be a major event and have that storyline be bigger than anything in Inquisition - though I'm personally hoping they dial it back a little; not something as small as DA2 but smaller than the heavens being torn asunder. 

 

Having said that, I'm also of the opinion that the next game will be about both the Qunari/Tevinter war and stopping Solas - it would make sense, with Arlathan having been in Tevinter - and, as I said, I hope those plotlines are given equal importance. You have the low-fantasy political conflict and the high fantasy evil sorcerer trying to destroy the world put together, makes for an interesting contrast with Bioware's skill and the way they play with those tropes.

 

But I think one thing we can all agree on is that the way the Mage/Templar conflict was resolved in DAI was a massive disappointment and could have been handled much better. So if we're talking about trends we don't want Bioware to continue, I would much rather they nip that one in the bud rather than throw out the "new protagonist every game" trend, that's worked pretty well so far.

 

 

 

2) Another PC stopping Solas would further make him understand that the people of modern Thedas are people too.

 

Unless you were playing assquisitor, Solas is already convinced that the people of modern Thedas are people. He doesn't need another person to tell him that. His dilemma is that for some reason, he believes that bringing down the veil is the only way to "save" his people. The Inquisitor will also probably "save" the modern people over the ancient elves if there were no other option. Neither group is somehow more valuable than the other. It's just a shitty situation that has no good solution as Solas believes. Also, even if you were playing assquisitor or don't care for redeeming Solas, the writers still have the responsibility to account for those who want to redeem him, especially since we were given the option to attempt that.

 

 

His problem is Corypheus' problem; that he's willing to destroy the world to restore something that doesn't exist anymore. Points to both of them for trying to clean up their messes, but you don't use the blood of millions for water in the mop bucket. 

 

 

 

3) Solas threatens everyone and not just the Inquisitor.

 

Yes that is true, but the story will likely be less nuanced if Solas confronts a new PC. Weekes wrote the Solas Lavellan romance just to make him seem more sympathetic. Even though some players don't care about Solas or think he's just pure evil/psycho, it is clear that this was not the writer's intention. Solas was likely written as your companion/friend/potential lover/rival in order for you to care about him (whether love or hate) and not just defeat him as some generic big bad. The writers may not have reached every player with this intent, but they reached probably at least half of the player base and it would be irresponsible to get your players attached to a character/relationship and then ignore it in the next game when there is no closure in the current game. One could argue that they could rebuild such a relationship with a new PC, but that's frankly a waste of time considering that they have already spent a whole game doing that. Honestly, I don't want a repeat of the Corypheus situation in which I knew I had to stop him, but could care less about him either way.

 

I'm already there. In fact, I cared much more about Corypheus. I know I'm in a minority there, but I do consider him the best big bad in the series thus far. Ignoring that, as I am in the minority there, what I don't want is to be forced to play a character who cares about someone I don't. And the fact is there is no option for the Inquisitor just not care about Solas - we've been railroaded into that. 

 

Aside from that, I'm seeing a lot of "likely", "probably" thrown around here by both sides. We all have our preconceptions on what's most likely in a given outcome, most of them being favorable to our own preference and negative towards the opposition. There's no way to prove either until it happens; either you have faith in Bioware to do something, or you don't, so I won't engage in anymore "nu uh" "yea huh!" on that front.

[Eivuwan]

 

Alright, where to start with this. Well go with timeline. DAO takes place over the span of a year. DAI takes place over the span of a year, year and a half. A few years, if we define "a few" as "three to five", is plenty of time for there to be a major event and have that storyline be bigger than anything in Inquisition - though I'm personally hoping they dial it back a little; not something as small as DA2 but smaller than the heavens being torn asunder. 

 

Having said that, I'm also of the opinion that the next game will be about both the Qunari/Tevinter war and stopping Solas - it would make sense, with Arlathan having been in Tevinter - and, as I said, I hope those plotlines are given equal importance. You have the low-fantasy political conflict and the high fantasy evil sorcerer trying to destroy the world put together, makes for an interesting contrast with Bioware's skill and the way they play with those tropes.

 

But I think one thing we can all agree on is that the way the Mage/Templar conflict was resolved in DAI was a massive disappointment and could have been handled much better. So if we're talking about trends we don't want Bioware to continue, I would much rather they nip that one in the bud rather than throw out the "new protagonist every game" trend, that's worked pretty well so far.

 

Yes, but it's a different situation because there was a lot more build up for the mage templar war.

 

 

 

His problem is Corypheus' problem; that he's willing to destroy the world to restore something that doesn't exist anymore. Points to both of them for trying to clean up their messes, but you don't use the blood of millions for water in the mop bucket.

 

I think you completely missed my point here. I wasn't arguing for why Solas is sympathetic. I was saying that the argument that it's better for another PC to redeem him doesn't make any sense because Solas already knows that the people of Thedas are people. That's not his dilemma right now. I am assuming of course that the people who don't want to redeem him as the Inquisitor also don't want to redeem him as another PC. In that case, Solas is just a generic big bad for both the Inquisitor/new protagonist.

 

I'm already there. In fact, I cared much more about Corypheus. I know I'm in a minority there, but I do consider him the best big bad in the series thus far. Ignoring that, as I am in the minority there, what I don't want is to be forced to play a character who cares about someone I don't. And the fact is there is no option for the Inquisitor just not care about Solas - we've been railroaded into that. 

 

 

How do I explain this. You don't care about Solas, but about half of the player base do. Half of us do because Bioware purposely wrote the story in a way that entices us to care about him. Just because the intended emotional effect did not reach most of the player base doesn't mean that they are not responsible for those that they have impacted. It's kind of mean to build up that relationship in Trespasser just to hand it over to some random Joe. I didn't care so much about the new protagonist until Trespasser came out. They could have easily ended it with Solas being vague about how he has an important mission and that's that. They didn't have to do the whole big reveal with the Inquisitor saying that he/she wants to redeem/stop Solas.

[NoForgiveness]

 

 

 Corypheus. I know I'm in a minority there, but I do consider him the best big bad in the series thus far.

 

had to be done.

[midnight tea]

That depends on how you role played the relationship. There can essentially be a similar relationship to that between Hawke and Cory if you played it that way.

 

Care to elaborate? Because I don't see how you can come up with such conclusion.

 

The only relationship between Hawke and Cory is that of responsibility or 'unfinished business'. In what way the relationship with Solas remotely reminds that?

 

You'd have to role-play in a very specific way that would put the relationship more in a head-canon than canon territory. It would probably require us to ignore almost everything about Solas in the main game, only to fight him in the last Trespasser scene and turning out in DA4 that he survived.

Nothing like this happened. Solas is a companion and a person who saved Inquisitor's butt more than once and in more than one way - and not accidentally. And if people chose to redeem him, rather than crush him, now we're almost literally fighting for his soul.

 

And not that many really cared about Cory and his Blighted soul... I mean, why would we? Aside from some snippets and Calpernia quest we didn't really know him that well.

[Obsidian Gryphon]

 

They could have easily ended it with Solas being vague about how he has an important mission and that's that. They didn't have to do the whole big reveal with the Inquisitor saying that he/she wants to redeem/stop Solas.

 

I was thinking this too since I played the PC that way; looking to redeem Solas. The thread will be lost of this is not taken up in the next segment. If they're insistent on throwing in a new protagonist, they shouldn't abandon the Inq PC. I think what they should do is to make it such that when it comes to Inq decision making, etc, that would affect events, we should be allowed to control what the Inquisitor does. And if there's any vital confrontation with Solas, the Inq should be there.

[Former_Fiend]

Yes, but it's a different situation because there was a lot more build up for the mage templar war.

 

Male bovine feces. They've been building up the Qunari invading since Origins with Sten's commentary. Just as much time in DA2 was devoted to the Qunari as was the mage/templar conflict. More, if you count Mark of the Assassin.

 

 

 

had to be done.

 

Well, when stacked against the Archdemon, the Mother, and Meredith, he comes out looking a lot better.

[Morroian]

Care to elaborate? Because I don't see how you can come up with such conclusion.

 

We can have very little to do with Solas in the main game if we don't want to.

[Nefla]

I'm already there. In fact, I cared much more about Corypheus. I know I'm in a minority there, but I do consider him the best big bad in the series thus far.

May I ask why?

[CardButton]

While I did love DA:I I could never get over this feeling that my poor character was just playing cleanup for those hero's that came before.  So many plot lines either revolved around baggage left over from Hawke (Mage/Templar Conflict and Corypheus), or the crap brought to you courtesy of Morrigan; and because you (a primarily unrelated character) had to deal with these problems, the conclusions we were given to these conflicts felt rather hollow and disappointing.  

 

The Inquisitor's only true personal connections to the events of Dragon Age Inquisition were: the relationships they had with their companions, the events of "Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts", their Judgments and the Divine Election. These sections of the game where by far my favorite parts and it's probably why I enjoyed "Trespasser" as much as I did.

 

Obviously there are a lot of different experiences with Inquisition and they will subsequently create equally as many opinions on how the Protagonist for DA4 should be handled, but for me I would love to see what kind of character the Inquisitor COULD BE if they were allowed to continue on and be a PC in a story they have an actual personal relation to; rather than attempting what Inquisition did again and having a new PC deal with the past PC's baggage. 

[Former_Fiend]

May I ask why?

 

Well, first off, it isn't exactly a high bar. The Archdemon, the Mother, and Meredith being the only competition. I would rank him below secondary antagonists like Loghain and the Arishok, but those two are among my favorite characters in the series.

 

Aside from that, I love his voice and dialogue. I actually like his motivation. I think the idea of a man who breached heaven, found it empty, and decided that was a job that couldn't be vacant. 

[Nefla]

Well, first off, it isn't exactly a high bar. The Archdemon, the Mother, and Meredith being the only competition. I would rank him below secondary antagonists like Loghain and the Arishok, but those two are among my favorite characters in the series.

 

Aside from that, I love his voice and dialogue. I actually like his motivation. I think the idea of a man who breached heaven, found it empty, and decided that was a job that couldn't be vacant. 

Well he does have an excellent voice actor. I think I would have found him more compelling if he was actually competent. He seemed like he had potential when he clearly posessed Larius/Janeka at the end of Legacy.

[Dabrikishaw]

 

Well, when stacked against the Archdemon, the Mother, and Meredith, he comes out looking a lot better.

I do agree with this. Corypheus could have been better, but as a Big Bad he is currently the best Bioware made for Dragon Age. In fact I'd say the only thing really wrong with him is the fact that he doesn't get a real win after Haven.

 

Solas could top Corypheus for me on a personal level, but I'll have to see how the next game handles him to decided that.

[AresKeith]

I do agree with this. Corypheus could have been better, but as a Big Bad he is currently the best Bioware made for Dragon Age. In fact I'd say the only thing really wrong with him is the fact that he doesn't get a real win after Haven.

 

Solas could top Corypheus for me on a personal level, but I'll have to see how the next game handles him to decided that.

 

Yeah, after Skyhold his threat level just started to drop because they do much with him after that

 

The Calpernia side actually helped a bit 

[midnight tea]

We can have very little to do with Solas in the main game if we don't want to.

 

Again - how did you come up to such conclusion?

 

It's the complete opposite to what you claim - we have A LOT to do with Solas even if we don't want to. He saves Inky's life in Haven. He helps to seal the Breach. He provides crucial information and expertise throughout the game. He leads the Herald to Skyhold, cementing them being picked as the leader of Inquisition. Then, at the end, he tips Inquisition about the Qunari threat and saves the South - and then saves Inquisitor from the Anchor.

 

And that's canon in practically every play-through. Therefore in what possible scenario we "can have very little with Solas"?

 

Even AssQuizzies who hated him will have to admit that Solas did a lot to help them rise to their position - or may want revenge for being used as a pawn or feeling betrayed.

 

You can't have any of that with Corypheus; not on that level. Corypheus was a cause Inquisition was formed around - but things would not go the way they did without Solas's orb (and well, him forming the Veil much earlier, creating the possibility of scenario in the first place) and then actively participating in the formation and rise of the Inquisition and its leader.

[Tidus]

What I would like to see is none "Olive Oyl " stick model females as heroines. They need muscle and some meat to lift all those oversized swords, daggers, shields and bows.

[Ryzaki]

wat

 

That is just....

 

so random.

[Nefla]

wat

 

That is just....

 

so random.

Yet true!

[Ryzaki]

Yet true!

 

XD

 

Yeah playing a fem elf archer is just...no. The wood pieces of the bow were almost bigger than her arm. Jesus christ.

[Former_Fiend]

Again - how did you come up to such conclusion?

 

It's the complete opposite to what you claim - we have A LOT to do with Solas even if we don't want to. He saves Inky's life in Haven. He helps to seal the Breach. He provides crucial information and expertise throughout the game. He leads the Herald to Skyhold, cementing them being picked as the leader of Inquisition. Then, at the end, he tips Inquisition about the Qunari threat and saves the South - and then saves Inquisitor from the Anchor.

 

And that's canon in practically every play-through. Therefore in what possible scenario we "can have very little with Solas"?

 

Even AssQuizzies who hated him will have to admit that Solas did a lot to help them rise to their position - or may want revenge for being used as a pawn or feeling betrayed.

 

You can't have any of that with Corypheus; not on that level. Corypheus was a cause Inquisition was formed around - but things would not go the way they did without Solas's orb (and well, him forming the Veil much earlier, creating the possibility of scenario in the first place) and then actively participating in the formation and rise of the Inquisition and its leader.

 

Well, as I've said several times, there are a grand total of three mandatory conversations with Solas. When you meet him in Haven, when he leads you to Skyhold, and when he leaves after defeating Corypheus.

 

So, it's possible that the inquisitor's entire connection with Solas as "that elf who watched me sleep, showed me his house, painted a room in my honor, then ran off when his ball broke."

[CardButton]

Well, as I've said several times, there are a grand total of three mandatory conversations with Solas. When you meet him in Haven, when he leads you to Skyhold, and when he leaves after defeating Corypheus.

 

So, it's possible that the inquisitor's entire connection with Solas as "that elf who watched me sleep, showed me his house, painted a room in my honor, then ran off when his ball broke."

...And Corypheus' entire existence in Dragon Age 2 is locked behind a 10 Doller Optional DLC Wall, whats your point?  While your interaction with Solas'  can be boiled down to 3 Required Conversations, Corypheus and the adventure that contains him are entirely optional for Hawke.  If you were to play Dragon Age 2 without "Legacy" you would never get to meet him at all, so I'm afraid Solas' relationship with the Inquisitor has you beat on that point. 

 

I mean personally I was not a big fan of Dragon Age 2.  While I was OK with Hawke and many of the Companions I remember being constantly frustrated with the events of the third chapter and I got the wrong epilogue more than once.  Thusly I didn't stick around long enough with the game after I beat it a couple of times to want to buy the DLC; and on my first play through of Inquisition I had no idea who the heck Corypheus was (hence the massive Exposition dump on the parts of Varric and Hawke).  I actually had to go back and buy the DLC and replay DA2 (A game I wasn't particularly fond of I remind you) just to be able to experience the "relationship" between Hawke and Cory.

 

Even if you havn't played "Trespasser" (Which you've admitted to not personally doing if I remember correctly), you still interact with Solas 3 required times more than Cory in DA2 during the DA:I and numerous other optional times if you so choose.

[Abyss108]

Well it seems some people are arguing they should write the plot for people who go out of their way to skip the plot...

[Former_Fiend]

I'm arguing that Solas is, in the main game, not the plot. He's one companion among many, and frankly he's the least interesting out of the lot at a glance. 

 

Interacting with any of the companions is purely optional. Solas' fans make his relationship with the Inquisitor out to be a friendship or love for the ages, a solid bond, and the revelations of his betrayal something so personal and so deep that the entire next game must be devoted to it.

 

And it isn't. I didn't go out of my way to avoid Solas, I went full approval with him, selected every option of dialogue, and the simple fact is that I do not see this amazing relationship there that his fans do. I do not see something an entire game should be built around. I do not see how the Inquisitor being the main character where Solas is the villain is going to enhance anything. You're either going to have a bunch of scenes where the Inquisitor's asks Solas "how could you do this? Don't you remember the good old days? Did it all mean nothing?" Or "I'll kill you for what you've done!" Or you're going to find a bunch of codex entries that show Solas' behavior in DAI was either all an act or it all wasn't.

 

And my god if the Inquisitor says to Solas "You should have killed me when you had the chance!"...Well, i won't do anything because I won't play the game if the Inquisitor is the PC, but if I did, I would take my disk out right there and snap the damn thing in two.