1659 réponses à ce sujet

[NoForgiveness]

If it is a new pc random peasant should actually be what their called. That'd be hilarious.

[leaguer of one]

I compared the two.

And it was a bad comparison.

[Nefla]

If it is a new pc random peasant should actually be what their called. That'd be hilarious.

It's a title, like "warden" "champion" or "inquisitor"

 

NPC: "You there, Random Peasant! I have an epic quest for you!"

Random Peasant: "My name is Herbert and I-"

NPC: "Don't care! Now find me my lost sock!"

[Cute Nug]

I want to be Dennis the peasant in DA4. Me and Sera will set Thedas right.

 

[Former_Fiend]

If the writing is that bad, it will be that bad no matter who you're playing.

 

Option A: I will save the world even though I'm a random peasant because it needs saving!

Option B: I will save the world because I'm a random peasant because it needs saving and no one will see it coming!

Option C: It sucks that I have to save the world, I am a random peasant after all but it needs saving!

 

(PS, the inquisitor never has to express friendship for Solas)

 

Well, I was being a little hyperbolic in the specifics, but the simple fact is that Hawke was in DAI to serve a purpose and that purpose was to be the anti-warden voice in Here Lies the Abyss. The person who says "the wardens have gone to far", the person to say that the warden's "whatever it takes" attitude is misguided, unjustified, and self destructive. 

 

Whether we controlled Hawke or not, that was the role they were designated to fill because the writers needed someone in that role and they needed someone who's opinion they thought would carry weight. Incidentally, the same reason why they had Teagan be the anti-Inquisition guy in Trespasser and we all know how well that worked out.

 

But I digress; the fact is, the Here Lies the Abyss quest doesn't work if Hawke and Alistair/Loghain/Stroud agree on the Wardens' actions; one has to argue for, and one has to argue against. So even if we controlled them, none of Hawke's dialgoue options would have been in agreement with the Wardens'. At best you might have seen a "I'm a blood mage/reaver and I find all of this insane!" option, but it would have been worded in a highly condemning way.

 

Tangent; this ties into why I think the dual protagonists can't work for a Bioware game. For it to work you need to have contrast and conflict between the protagonists; the can't just agree on everything. But in a Bioware game, if you don't give people the option of having them agree on everything, people will be up in arms about the whole thing. People have strong opinions on virtually every major decision in the series, and not being able to have their protagonist go the way they want on any given decision could "ruin" that protagonist for them.

 

And in regards to your PS, and further how this applies to the Inquisitor in general; just as Hawke was in DAI to serve a function, including the Inquisitor in DA4, in any capacity - NPC, secondary protagonist, sole protagonist - they'll be there to serve a function. The entire argument in favor of including the Inquisitor is their relationship with Solas and the story that provides. So, if they include the Inquisitor as the PC on that basis, the simple fact is they are going to do everything to shill that relationship. Every line of dialogue is going to reference Solas as a great friend, trusted confidant, and either express the desire to save him from himself or avenge his betrayal.

 

Except for punching-Solas playthroughs(which I've never done because he's so smug and self righteous about the whole thing), in which all the dialogue will reference Solas as a hated arch nemesis. 

 

Again, if the entire basis of the storyline is this epic, amazing relationship these two had, whether friendly or antagonistic, then the expectation would be to play that up and shill it for all it's worth, and it's going to come off no differently than Hawke's hate-on for blood magic, because it's the same thing; driving the point home that they want driven.

 

With a new protagonist, that pre-existing relationship wouldn't be the focus. If it's no longer the foundation upon everything else is built, then that frees you up to have a wider range of opinions on the matter. 

[Nefla]

Ugh, don't make me have even less faith in BioWare's storytelling ability than I already do As far as the inquisitor's relationship with Solas, all three of your options assumed friendship and none assumed rivalry or hate which was very possible. You felt nothing between Solas and the inquisitor, fine. But "I felt nothing towards Solas, who was he again?" will never be a dialogue option. Even as a new protagonist you'll have to have feelings on him. Contrary to what you claim, a new person's opinion's on Solas will likely be more limited than the inquisitor's. "He's bad because he's evil and wants to destroy the world" or "maybe he has a point and the veil should come down" rather than: 1)He's a good man but misguided and I'll show him he's wrong, 2)I'm going to kill that bastard for playing me like a fool 3)Whatever he might have been, he needs to be stopped before he destroys the world 4)I agree with him and the veil should come down. A new protagonist takes away options, it doesn't add them. You still have the same basic ideas: Solas is wrong vs Solas is right but without any personal stake or intimate personal knowledge of Solas. If BioWare tries to give the new PC a personal motivation to stop Solas, It will probably be something painfully boring and cliche such as Solas destroy's Random Peasant's village in the intro in order to get something he needs for his plan.

 

 

You claim you simply don't like the inquisitor-Solas dynamic and that there's nothing BioWare can do to make it interesting but what I feel like you're really saying is that BioWare can no longer write interesting characters, stories, or dialogue.

[Former_Fiend]

The weird thing is, even though that may be how I'm coming off, from my perspective I seem to have more faith in their abilities to write interesting characters and relationships than you do.

 

I just don't think they can do it with the dynamic between the Inquisitor and Solas because I don't think that dynamic is strong enough to carry a game the way that the supporters are trying to make it out to be. 

 

Get that albatross off from around their necks and I think they'd be able to do great things with it. 

[Gwydden]

The Inquisitor isn't coming back. I thought that was pretty obvious, what with the missing arm and declarations in Trespasser and such.

 

And I'm glad it's that way. There are reasons while the single protagonist approach wouldn't work for DA. Imagine someone wanted to make a series on the history of the 15th century. Different games will explore a variety of events such as the Hundred Years War, the Reconquista, Columbus voyages, the Italian Renaissance, the fall of Constantinople and rise of the Ottomans, the Protestant Reform and the birth of the printing press, the rise of the Aztec Empire, Chinese treasure fleets, the early Sengoku period, and whatever else.

 

Would it make sense to have every entry have the same protagonist in such a series, even if you stick to a single continent? That's rather unlikely. Would it make sense to have said protagonist play a major role in every single one of those historical events? Now that's just nonsense. The truth is, what connects every entry in DA together is, supposedly, that the series tells the history of the Dragon Age in Thedas. Telling the history of an entire continent, for an entire century, through only one PoV? Sorry, it doesn't work. And if said PoV is not just an observer but a major player (indeed, the most important player) in every event the whole thing becomes downright cartoony.

 

For the single protagonist idea to work, they either need to tell the same main plot across several games as in ME or make the series into an anthology where either stories of a smaller scope are told or the importance of the protagonist in major historical events is reduced. There's just so many times a single individual can save the world, you know?

[Eivuwan]

The weird thing is, even though that may be how I'm coming off, from my perspective I seem to have more faith in their abilities to write interesting characters and relationships than you do.

 

I just don't think they can do it with the dynamic between the Inquisitor and Solas because I don't think that dynamic is strong enough to carry a game the way that the supporters are trying to make it out to be. 

 

Get that albatross off from around their necks and I think they'd be able to do great things with it. 

 

Considering that the writers keep pushing the story in this direction, I don't think they see it as an albatross. I think you're projecting.

[Nefla]

The weird thing is, even though that may be how I'm coming off, from my perspective I seem to have more faith in their abilities to write interesting characters and relationships than you do.

 

I just don't think they can do it with the dynamic between the Inquisitor and Solas because I don't think that dynamic is strong enough to carry a game the way that the supporters are trying to make it out to be. 

 

Get that albatross off from around their necks and I think they'd be able to do great things with it. 

I have very little faith in BioWare's writing ability these days. Trespasser and the spark of potential of BioWare writing a game between a protagonist and antagonist with a personal connection, the refreshing idea of being disabled and learning to live and function and fight again, the idea of redemption or vengeance, those things gave me hope. Starting from square one takes that all away for me. It becomes another "save the world from an evil wizard."

 

DA2 was incredibly disappointing to me but it at least had potential. I could see how if the story was tightened up and the game given more time it would have been good. ME3 was worse and assassinated the character of various people including Shepard, changed the tone that was present for the first two games into a hamfsted "you lose, there is no hope" scenario and gave us such an unsatisfying and illogical ending that people started a huge campaign to get it changed, but at least there were a few good and emotional moments and the combat was fun. DA:I was the worst yet. It had an uninteresting and generic villain that I didn't care about, companions with no real reason to be there and no connection to the plot, a plot that was weak in general and quite disjointed, very limited roleplaying and personality defining options, no balance between triumph and tragedy with the inquisitor always winning with ease. This not only stopped me from feeling loss and sadness but also stopped me from feeling triumphant because winning was just so easy and expected. The combat was also more of a chore than any other BioWare game I've played. Without Trespasser, I would have left the series behind for good but like I said, it sparked such potential and got me thinking of a DA4 that I would actually love. If they continue on as they have been, discard that potential, and use the inquisitor's maiming to make them a generic cameo NPC then my interest will reset to what it was before Trespasser and that is zero.

 

I loved Origins, I really liked ME1 and I loved ME2. I love SWtOR and play it almost every day (I also liked KotOR and Jade empire and though the human only protagonists made me less interested, I thought they had good stories and good antagonists). I want to feel that again. I want to play a BioWare game and be passionate about it. I want it to make me laugh and cry and scream with anger. I want a coherent and interesting story rather than a series random events that someone halfheartedly tried to connect. I don't want to play a game that's all flash and no substance, I don't want to see cut corners and "good enough's" and "it wasn't a priority's." ME3 did enough damage for me to never want to play another ME again under any circumstances. I haven't looked at anything to do with the next ME, I haven't even clicked on the subforum here. I don't want that to be the way it ends with DA too.

[Gwydden]

I have very little faith in BioWare's writing ability these days. Trespasser and the spark of potential of BioWare writing a game between a protagonist and antagonist with a personal connection,

Not everyone had a personal connection with Solas, and DAI wasn't written in such a way that it was necessary. For some he may just be "that elf that turned out to be a traitor. I hear he wouldn't stop yapping about the Fade. Oh, well. Guess we'll have to put him down."

 

the refreshing idea of being disabled and learning to live and function and fight again,

For that to work the disability would have to mesh with DA's gameplay. Since literally every fighting style requires two healthy arms it very much doesn't. They could go for a prosthetic arm, but that would 1. cheapen the whole point of the disability, 2. not be established in the setting and therefore be a crappy copout, and c. make the Inquisitor lose his arm in the first place pointless.

 

the idea of redemption or vengeance, those things gave me hope. Starting from square one takes that all away for me. It becomes another "save the world from an evil wizard."

It already is. Those things you mention are not only cliche in this context, they wouldn't even work for those players that don't give a flying fig about Solas, and it certainly wouldn't work for new players to the series.

 

In fact, the reason I was dissapointed with the whole Solas business in Trespasser is because it stinks of yet another "save the world from an evil wizard" storyline. You want to avoid that? Dropping Solas' story, or at least minimizing its importance, is the way to go.

[Former_Fiend]

 

I loved Origins, I really liked ME1 and I loved ME2. I love SWtOR and play it almost every day (I also liked KotOR and Jade empire and though the human only protagonists made me less interested, I thought they had good stories and good antagonists). I want to feel that again. I want to play a BioWare game and be passionate about it. I want it to make me laugh and cry and scream with anger. I want a coherent and interesting story rather than a series random events that someone halfheartedly tried to connect. I don't want to play a game that's all flash and no substance, I don't want to see cut corners and "good enough's" and "it wasn't a priority's." ME3 did enough damage for me to never want to play another ME again under any circumstances. I haven't looked at anything to do with the next ME, I haven't even clicked on the subforum here. I don't want that to be the way it ends with DA too.

 

 

I don't see how a game with a new protagonist automatically has to be any of those things.

 

I do see how a game with the Inquisitor again absolutely could(not will, but could) be all of those things.

 

And even if it isn't, it would be taking away too much of what I enjoy about the series for me to even consider playing it.

[Eivuwan]

I have very little faith in BioWare's writing ability these days. Trespasser and the spark of potential of BioWare writing a game between a protagonist and antagonist with a personal connection, the refreshing idea of being disabled and learning to live and function and fight again, the idea of redemption or vengeance, those things gave me hope. Starting from square one takes that all away for me. It becomes another "save the world from an evil wizard."

 

DA2 was incredibly disappointing to me but it at least had potential. I could see how if the story was tightened up and the game given more time it would have been good. ME3 was worse and assassinated the character of various people including Shepard, changed the tone that was present for the first two games into a hamfsted "you lose, there is no hope" scenario and gave us such an unsatisfying and illogical ending that people started a huge campaign to get it changed, but at least there were a few good and emotional moments and the combat was fun. DA:I was the worst yet. It had an uninteresting and generic villain that I didn't care about, companions with no real reason to be there and no connection to the plot, a plot that was weak in general and quite disjointed, very limited roleplaying and personality defining options, no balance between triumph and tragedy with the inquisitor always winning with ease. This not only stopped me from feeling loss and sadness but also stopped me from feeling triumphant because winning was just so easy and expected. The combat was also more of a chore than any other BioWare game I've played. Without Trespasser, I would have left the series behind for good but like I said, it sparked such potential and got me thinking of a DA4 that I would actually love. If they continue on as they have been, discard that potential, and use the inquisitor's maiming to make them a generic cameo NPC then my interest will reset to what it was before Trespasser and that is zero.

 

I loved Origins, I really liked ME1 and I loved ME2. I love SWtOR and play it almost every day (I also liked KotOR and Jade empire and though the human only protagonists made me less interested, I thought they had good stories and good antagonists). I want to feel that again. I want to play a BioWare game and be passionate about it. I want it to make me laugh and cry and scream with anger. I want a coherent and interesting story rather than a series random events that someone halfheartedly tried to connect. I don't want to play a game that's all flash and no substance, I don't want to see cut corners and "good enough's" and "it wasn't a priority's." ME3 did enough damage for me to never want to play another ME again under any circumstances. I haven't looked at anything to do with the next ME, I haven't even clicked on the subforum here. I don't want that to be the way it ends with DA too.

 

This is exactly how I feel. I'm still not over the broken ending of ME3. I am not going to buy Andromeda until the goty edition because I don't trust the ME team enough to preorder it. Some players may think it's petty that I'm still not over it, but that's what happens when an RPG gets you really immersed into the story. It hurts so much more when the writing suddenly turns stupid. It's not like reading a book or watching a movie. It feels more real because of the role-playing aspect so writers should be more careful about what they do with the story. I am not saying that I need happy endings, but I need a fulfilling story with a logical ending. I still have faith that Weekes will let us at least control the Inquisitor for major Solas scenes though. I want more, but I guess I can tolerate a small dual protagonist role for the Inquisitor.

[Eivuwan]

Not everyone had a personal connection with Solas, and DAI wasn't written in such a way that it was necessary. For some he may just be "that elf that turned out to be a traitor. I hear he wouldn't stop yapping about the Fade. Oh, well. Guess we'll have to put him down."

 

For that to work the disability would have to mesh with DA's gameplay. Since literally every fighting style requires two healthy arms it very much doesn't. They could go for a prosthetic arm, but that would 1. cheapen the whole point of the disability, 2. not be established in the setting and therefore be a crappy copout, and c. make the Inquisitor lose his arm in the first place pointless.

 

It already is. Those things you mention are not only cliche in this context, they wouldn't even work for those players that don't give a flying fig about Solas, and it certainly wouldn't work for new players to the series.

 

In fact, the reason I was dissapointed with the whole Solas business in Trespasser is because it stinks of yet another "save the world from an evil wizard" storyline. You want to avoid that? Dropping Solas' story, or at least minimizing its importance, is the way to go.

 

yes yes yes, not everyone cares about Solas. We heard that many times. But about half the fanbase cares enough to want the Inquisitor to be at least a secondary protagonist. It's not cool to ignore that half of the fanbase especially after Trespasser.

[Nefla]

 

 

I don't see how a game with a new protagonist automatically has to be any of those things.

 

I do see how a game with the Inquisitor again absolutely could(not will, but could) be all of those things.

 

And even if it isn't, it would be taking away too much of what I enjoy about the series for me to even consider playing it.

Because IMO that's how DA2 and DA:I were.

 

A game with the inquisitor could definitely be all those things, but it has a real chance to be better. I feel a game with some new protagonist will definitely be all those things.

 

I'm confused, having a game with emotional moments that has substance rather than just flash would be taking away the things you love?

[Former_Fiend]

Really what I'm seeing here is the argument that since you don't have faith in Bioware's writing anymore, you're just hoping that they can use the Inquisitor's relationship with Solas as a crutch to carry them through another game.

 

Well, just as you say that a good portion of the fan base does care about Solas, there are still many of us who have faith in Bioware's ability to write a quality game without relying on that crutch.

[Gwydden]

yes yes yes, not everyone cares about Solas. We heard that many times. But about half the fanbase cares enough to want the Inquisitor to be at least a secondary protagonist. It's not cool to ignore that half of the fanbase especially after Trespasser.

You seem awfully certain of this. I would like to know where that figure comes from. The BSN is a very bad indicator of what the fanbase as a whole thinks as most of them have never been anywhere near it. Not to mention that a good many people who play DA4 are unlikely to have played any of the previous games and will have no idea of who Solas is.

[TevinterSupremacist]

And no one every point out what the motive is for that. What influences a person to stay a blood mage after seeing how horrible it can be at the end of DA2?

Oh, I know, I know!

It's fuuuuuuuuuun.

[Eivuwan]

You seem awfully certain of this. I would like to know where that figure comes from. The BSN is a very bad indicator of what the fanbase as a whole thinks as most of them have never been anywhere near it. Not to mention that a good many people who play DA4 are unlikely to have played any of the previous games and will have no idea of who Solas is.

 

You are right that I don't know for sure. I got my figure from a poll that I made that I put on both reddit and BSN.

[CardButton]

The Inquisitor isn't coming back. I thought that was pretty obvious, what with the missing arm and declarations in Trespasser and such.

 

And I'm glad it's that way. There are reasons while the single protagonist approach wouldn't work for DA. Imagine someone wanted to make a series on the history of the 15th century. Different games will explore a variety of events such as the Hundred Years War, the Reconquista, Columbus voyages, the Italian Renaissance, the fall of Constantinople and rise of the Ottomans, the Protestant Reform and the birth of the printing press, the rise of the Aztec Empire, Chinese treasure fleets, the early Sengoku period, and whatever else.

 

Would it make sense to have every entry have the same protagonist in such a series, even if you stick to a single continent? That's rather unlikely. Would it make sense to have said protagonist play a major role in every single one of those historical events? Now that's just nonsense. The truth is, what connects every entry in DA together is, supposedly, that the series tells the history of the Dragon Age in Thedas. Telling the history of an entire continent, for an entire century, through only one PoV? Sorry, it doesn't work. And if said PoV is not just an observer but a major player (indeed, the most important player) in every event the whole thing becomes downright cartoony.

 

For the single protagonist idea to work, they either need to tell the same main plot across several games as in ME or make the series into an anthology where either stories of a smaller scope are told or the importance of the protagonist in major historical events is reduced. There's just so many times a single individual can save the world, you know?

Yup, its not as though we've had returning characters show up and play major roles in the events of multiple DA stories or anything.  

 

Varric certainly was not in DA2 and Inquisition and did not help increase Hawke's notoriety as the Champion, or the primary reason Hawke ran into Cory.  Leliana was not a potential world saving companion in Origins AND a major force in Inquisition.  Morrigan, Flemeth, Allistair? Not highly influential across multiple recent events in Thedas in the slightest; and I there is simply no way were going to have to deal with Dorian or maybe even Sten (now an Arishok) as major plot critical NPC's in the events of DA4 (if it really does deal with Tevinter and the Qunari).

 

Then there is Solas, who had an enormous impact on the events of DA:I (even if not a big impact as a Companion depending on your play style) and he's been set up as a Major World Ending Antagonist for a future game, I doubt he'll have much to do with any future major events of the current Age. To top it all off, if you include the Books, there is Fiona who: was a remarkably talented Mage, a Grey Warden, Allistair's mother, dealt with the Architect, is the only warden to be cured of the blight in recorded history and is responsible for helping to push for (and instigating) the Mage Rebellion after she became the Grand Enchanter.  For sure her influence was contained to one major piece of history in current Thedas.

 

While I wouldn't be completely opposed to an new PC (though personally at this point I would prefer an Inquisitor PC) why is it completely unacceptable for the PC (a world saving hero) to play a major role in more than one historic event during their lifetime, but perfectly fine for that character's Companions to continue to influence Thedas in enormously influential ways?

[Nefla]

Really what I'm seeing here is the argument that since you don't have faith in Bioware's writing anymore, you're just hoping that they can use the Inquisitor's relationship with Solas as a crutch to carry them through another game.

 

Well, just as you say that a good portion of the fan base does care about Solas, there are still many of us who have faith in Bioware's ability to write a quality game without relying on that crutch.

A crutch is using an excessive amount of returning characters so that you don't have to do any character development, make them relevant to the plot, or give them proper motivation. A crutch is telling the player things instead of letting them experience those things. A crutch is making the player a chosen one who is the only one capable of saving the world rather than writing an interesting motivation. Taking an interesting plot point with so much potential and writing a story around it is NOT a crutch.

[Gwydden]

Yup, its not as though we've had returning characters show up and play major roles in the events of multiple DA stories or anything.  

Aaaand that's not something I'm a fan of. I'd rather it be kept to a minimum. I was talking about having a single protagonist across the entire series. Two games sharing a protagonist? That's stretching it, but I can buy it. Three? Ok, now you've gone too far. Four? WTF are you doing?

 

I was mostly addressing the OP's point that several protagonists was a system that didn't work. I was pointing out that the ME way would be even worse for DA.

[Eivuwan]

It boils down to people who think the Solas Inquisitor story is interesting and those who don't. I don't see how each side can convince the other lol.

[Former_Fiend]

Because IMO that's how DA2 and DA:I were.

 

A game with the inquisitor could definitely be all those things, but it has a real chance to be better. I feel a game with some new protagonist will definitely be all those things.

 

I'm confused, having a game with emotional moments that has substance rather than just flash would be taking away the things you love?

 

Having a game with emotional moments that have substance =/= having a game with the Inquisitor where the primary focus is their relationship with Solas. 

 

For me, it could just as easily turn into a situation where the Inquisitor's relationship with Solas is the flash, even if those moments are solid and connect with me - which they won't - that covers up the fact that the Inquisitor has no real investment in the rest of the game. They have no legitimate reason to care about Tevinter or it's people, or the Qun and it's people, or why they're fighting. Would just be a foreign war that any reasonably sane inquisitor would hope both sides lose, that's doing nothing but getting in their way of finding Solas. 

 

Or the story with Solas could be a mask to cover up that the new companions the Inquisitor gathers up to chase him down have all the depth, charisma, and connection to the plot as the young mercenaries Sylvester Stalone collected to go after his evil former friend in the Expendables 3.

 

Or it could be used to distract from the fact that, pre-existing relationship with the Inquisitor aside, Solas is just doing what Corypheus did and is taking his sweet time with it to boot.

[Gwydden]

Taking an interesting plot point with so much potential and writing a story around it is NOT a crutch.

An ancient immortal threatens to destroy the world by accident in his grand magical quest. How thrilling. How very... original. What's the interesting plot point again?