1659 réponses à ce sujet

[Former_Fiend]

A crutch is using an excessive amount of returning characters so that you don't have to do any character development, make them relevant to the plot, or give them proper motivation. A crutch is telling the player things instead of letting them experience those things. A crutch is making the player a chosen one who is the only one capable of saving the world rather than writing an interesting motivation. Taking an interesting plot point with so much potential and writing a story around it is NOT a crutch.

 

And if the story in question was half as interesting and had half as much potential as you make it out to be, I might agree with you.

 

I don't see it. 

[CardButton]

Aaaand that's not something I'm a fan of. I'd rather it be kept to a minimum. I was talking about having a single protagonist across the entire series. Two games sharing a protagonist? That's stretching it, but I can buy it. Three? Ok, now you've gone too far. Four? WTF are you doing?

 

I was mostly addressing the OP's point that several protagonists was a system that didn't work. I was pointing out that the ME way would be even worse for DA.

Right, but this is the current foundation of storytelling DA seems to be trapped in as of late and the major discussion at the moment for the thread seems to be centered around whether the Inquisitor should return for a second game as some form of PC.  I would absolutely adore if we could skip around in the history of Thedas far more then we currently are, getting new protagonists and grand events from all Era's of the world (because I love the world of Thedas) ... but that is not what were getting, nor what has been suggested we will be getting for at least the next game.

 

I also agree that the ME way of handling things would never work for DA, but until Bioware is finally willing abandon its focus on this period of history, I do kind of agree with the OP's assertion that the current way DA is being told doesn't really mesh well with the new Hero's every game concept.  

[Nefla]

And if the story in question was half as interesting and had half as much potential as you make it out to be, I might agree with you.

 

I don't see it. 

Probably because it will never be made. BioWare will make the inquisitor a crappy NPC advisor, the protagonist will be a random inquisition agent because "Solas doesn't know" them and will do NPC-quisitor's bidding to gather forces or magical McGuffins to defeat Solas. I don't understand what you assume can happen in DA:I with a new protagonist. Based on what we've been given in Trespasser, the things that can happen are very limited.

[Eivuwan]

An ancient immortal threatens to destroy the world by accident in his grand magical quest. How thrilling. How very... original. What's the interesting plot point again?

                  

I think this thread has shown that you can't prove that something is interesting or not interesting even if you write a whole essay on it. This is not a fair question to ask.

[Gwydden]

Right, but this is the current foundation of storytelling DA seems to be trapped in as of late and the major discussion at the moment for the thread seems to be centered around whether the Inquisitor should return for a second game as some form of PC.  I would absolutely adore if we could skip around in the history of Thedas far more then we currently are, getting new protagonists and grand events from all Era's of the world (because I love the world of Thedas) ... but that is not what were getting, nor what has been suggested we will be getting for at least the next game.

 

I also agree that the ME way of handling things would never work for DA, but until Bioware is finally willing abandon its focus on this period of history, I do kind of agree with the OP's assertion that the current way DA is being told doesn't really mesh well with the new Hero's every game concept.  

There's no reason why we should concern ourselves with what former PCs are doing when there's an entire continent for them to play around, and the current protagonist's business doesn't have to be theirs. Hawke just going off to live her life? Makes sense to me. The Warden engaged in "Grey Warden business"? Makes sense, why would full disclosure be offered to stranger? I don't need we even need to know as much as we have. And I'm pretty sure the Inquisitor will show up next game as an NPC anyway, or maybe we will even be able to choose his dialogue. Even Leliana, the most in your face character when it comes to omnipresence, plays a very minor role in DA2, and almost certainly won't feature heavily in DA4.

[Nefla]

An ancient immortal threatens to destroy the world by accident in his grand magical quest. How thrilling. How very... original. What's the interesting plot point again?

That part is going to be the same no matter who the protagonist is. What could make it interesting is the personal connection between Solas and the inquisitor, the personal motivation, the fact that the protagonist and antagonist have a history and it's one that the player knows. The inquisitor could be a friend, a lover, or a bitter rival with a grudge. Playing a character with a handicap and learning to live and fight again is also very appealing to me. Without that, all you have is the "An ancient immortal threatens to destroy the world by accident in his grand magical quest."

 

If you guys hate Solas, think he's boring, and wanted a different story...too bad.

[Former_Fiend]

My other issue with bringing the Inquisitor back as the PC is that doing so would require dragging far more returning characters back with them to make sure everyone was satisfied with their relationship progression. You'd need to bring back everyone who was romanceable or at least a scene or you'd have an uproar. 

 

No one was satisfied with how things played out in ME2 going into ME1 when it came to how they handled the pre-existing romances. Hell, there was a lot of outcry over the way things were handled going from DAO to DAA with Leliana, Zevran, and Alistair not coming back. People complained about Hawke's LI not being with them for their cameo in DAI. 

 

So either you cause a riot by excluding them except in the form of a letter, or you fill the game with a bunch of redundant scenes of characters who only show up if they were romanced, or you give me another game with the same damned cast. 

 

Give me a new protagonist and make it so that the Inquisitor and Dorian are the only returning characters and I'll be ecstatic. 

 

 

Probably because it will never be made. BioWare will make the inquisitor a crappy NPC advisor, the protagonist will be a random inquisition agent because "Solas doesn't know" them and will do NPC-quisitor's bidding to gather forces or magical McGuffins to defeat Solas. I don't understand what you assume can happen in DA:I with a new protagonist. Based on what we've been given in Trespasser, the things that can happen are very limited.

 

That would be worse case scenario, but keep in mind, most likely scenario for your side of the argument is that the Inquisitor gathers up a group of completely random new party members because "Solas doesn't know them" and gathers forces or magical McGuffins to defeat him, and after he's defeated you have the option of killing or sparing him. 

 

What do I imagine happening with a new protagonist, best case scenario, if I were writing the whole thing? If you'd like I could write you a rough draft pitch.

[Gwydden]

Probably because it will never be made. BioWare will make the inquisitor a crappy NPC advisor, the protagonist will be a random inquisition agent because "Solas doesn't know" them and will do NPC-quisitor's bidding to gather forces or magical McGuffins to defeat Solas. I don't understand what you assume can happen in DA:I with a new protagonist. Based on what we've been given in Trespasser, the things that can happen are very limited.

Oh, I dunno.

 

Say the new protagonist has nothing to do with the Inquisition but manages to be an influential figure in northern Thedas while staying engaged in their own business like, say, war with the Qunari or pushes for reform in Tevinter. The Inquisition contacts him for assistance and he can accept or tell them he's not interested. Solas will hopefully become the new Flemeth and his plot will be tangential to the main storyline in DA4. Since, you know, he's basically Corypheus rebooted. After all, the way a DA game ends has never been an indication to the next game's plot, now has it?

 

I think this thread has shown that you can't prove that something is interesting or not interesting even if you write a whole essay on it. This is not a fair question to ask.

Well, I think your argument that the Inquisitor should return (to what probably will be a very different setting with its own plotlines) rests entirely on his potentially non-existent relationship to a villain that is pretty much identical to the villain from the last game, who wasn't all that great himself. I just want to know why you don't think that's an issue.

[Gwydden]

That part is going to be the same no matter who the protagonist is. What could make it interesting is the personal connection between Solas and the inquisitor, the personal motivation, the fact that the protagonist and antagonist have a history and it's one that the player knows. The inquisitor could be a friend, a lover, or a bitter rival with a grudge. Playing a character with a handicap and learning to live and fight again is also very appealing to me. Without that, all you have is the "An ancient immortal threatens to destroy the world by accident in his grand magical quest."

 

If you guys hate Solas, think he's boring, and wanted a different story...too bad.

Oh, I like Solas, I just don't like the plot Trespasser is hinting at and want Bioware to be more ambitious than "Well, we suck at main plots anyway, so we're just going to give up without even trying and deliver a slight variation of our usual sucky formula."

 

And I would love to hear how you respond to the fact that the whole "personal motivation" business is all hypothetical and that other fact that the Inquisitor's handicap wouldn't work in a Bioware game.

[Nefla]

Oh, I dunno.

 

Say the new protagonist has nothing to do with the Inquisition but manages to be an influential figure in northern Thedas while staying engaged in their own business like, say, war with the Qunari or pushes for reform in Tevinter. The Inquisition contacts him for assistance and he can accept or tell them he's not interested. Solas will hopefully become the new Flemeth and his plot will be tangential to the main storyline in DA4. Since, you know, he's basically Corypheus rebooted. After all, the way a DA game ends has never been an indication to the next game's plot, now has it?

 

Well, I think your argument that the Inquisitor should return (to what probably will be a very different setting with its own plotlines) rests entirely on his potentially non-existent relationship to a villain that is pretty much identical to the villain from the last game, who wasn't all that great himself. I just want to know why you don't think that's an issue.

So you assume BioWare is going to discard everything they've set up and that DA4 will have nothing to do with any of the things they beat us over the head with in Trespasser?

 

That would be worse case scenario, but keep in mind, most likely scenario for your side of the argument is that the Inquisitor gathers up a group of completely random new party members because "Solas doesn't know them" and gathers forces or magical McGuffins to defeat him, and after he's defeated you have the option of killing or sparing him. 

 

What do I imagine happening with a new protagonist, best case scenario, if I were writing the whole thing? If you'd like I could write you a rough draft pitch.

What do you expect will happen within the limits BioWare has set up? The inquisition will be heavily involved, Solas will be the antagonist and is trying to destroy the world.

 

I say again, you guys want some completely unrelated story and that's not going to happen.

[Gwydden]

So you assume BioWare is going to discard everything they've set up and that DA4 will have nothing to do with any of the things they beat us over the head with in Trespasser?

 

What do you expect will happen within the limits BioWare has set up? The inquisition will be heavily involved, Solas will be the antagonist and is trying to destroy the world.

 

I say again, you guys want some completely unrelated story and that's not going to happen.

You mean like DA2 heavily implied that DA3 was going to be about the Mage-Templar War?

[Former_Fiend]

So you assume BioWare is going to discard everything they've set up and that DA4 will have nothing to do with any of the things they beat us over the head with in Trespasser?

 

What do you expect will happen within the limits BioWare has set up? The inquisition will be heavily involved, Solas will be the antagonist and is trying to destroy the world.

 

I say again, you guys want some completely unrelated story and that's not going to happen.

 

I'll work up a pitch after I'm done cooking dinner.

[midnight tea]

Oh, I dunno.

 

Say the new protagonist has nothing to do with the Inquisition but manages to be an influential figure in northern Thedas while staying engaged in their own business like, say, war with the Qunari or pushes for reform in Tevinter. The Inquisition contacts him for assistance and he can accept or tell them he's not interested. Solas will hopefully become the new Flemeth and his plot will be tangential to the main storyline in DA4. Since, you know, he's basically Corypheus rebooted. After all, the way a DA game ends has never been an indication to the next game's plot, now has it?

 

Thing is, Trespasser IS how game ends. It's a proper epilogue - it's been called such by many DA devs. Therefore with 99% certainty it is canon to the main storyline, just like Hawke killing Corypheus is, despite it happening in DLC people have to purchase. (and even if people didn't buy Trespasser, thet still have a post-epilogue stinger)

 

So yes - how DAI ends is by all means indicative of the future plot: that is, likely going to Tevinter in order to find contacts and means to stop Solas.

 

Also: are you suggesting that we'rd going to have to create Inquisition 2.0 all over again? Because aside from it being a pointless, I don't see how they can just establish such influential Northern figure without sacrifice both storytelling quality and player agency.

 

You know what I say so? Because Inquisition was supposed to start like this - with Inquisitor already being chosen as leader of Inquisition and going against Corypheus. Fortunately, the devs realized that this doesn't work at all and rewrite the beginning entirely. And you think they can do this for DA4, now that they've deemed this route a bad idea already?

[Gwydden]

Thing is, Trespasser IS how game ends. It's a proper epilogue - it's been called such by many DA devs. Therefore with 99% certainty it is canon to the main storyline, just like Hawke killing Corypheus is, despite it happening in DLC people have to purchase. (and even if people didn't buy Trespasser, thet still have a post-epilogue stinger)

 

So yes - how DAI ends is by all means indicative of the future plot: that is, likely going to Tevinter in order to find contacts and means to stop Solas.

 

Also: are you suggesting that we'rd going to have to create Inquisition 2.0 all over again? Because aside from it being a pointless, I don't see how they can just establish such influential Northern figure without sacrifice both storytelling quality and player agency.

 

You know what I say so? Because Inquisition was supposed to start like this - with Inquisitor already being chosen as leader of Inquisition and going against Corypheus. Fortunately, the devs realized that this doesn't work at all and rewrite the beginning entirely. And you think they can do this for DA4, now that they've deemed this route a bad idea already?

I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

What I'm saying is that Trespasser is no more indication of what DA4's main plot will be about than Witch Hunt was an indication of what DA2 was going to be about or Act 3 of DA2 (or MotA, if you're going for out-of-game chronology) was for DAI.

 

As for my pitch, you can read it here. In that scenario, you become an influential figure, but not necessarily the single most important player in the area. And it's certainly not an "Inquisition 2.0".

[Nefla]

Oh, I like Solas, I just don't like the plot Trespasser is hinting at and want Bioware to be more ambitious than "Well, we suck at main plots anyway, so we're just going to give up without even trying and deliver a slight variation of our usual sucky formula."

 

And I would love to hear how you respond to the fact that the whole "personal motivation" business is all hypothetical and that other fact that the Inquisitor's handicap wouldn't work in a Bioware game.

It doesn't matter if you like the plot Trespasser is hinting at, the choice isn't "BioWare keeps its' planned plotline and the inquisitor is the protagonist" VS "completely new story with new protagonist about a Tevinter slave revolt or a Tevinter/Qunari war" the only thing that could possibly be affected is whether the protagonist is the inquisitor or some new guy. The story will be the same. The fact that BioWare wrote a connection between the inquisitor and Solas isn't hypothetical. Solas saves your life twice, miraculously finds Skyhold for you when your people are destitute and wandering the wilderness after Haven was destroyed. Everything that happened with Corypheus and the breach, everyone who died, it was all Solas' fault. He lied to the inquisitor the whole time and used them for his own ends. At the end of Trespasser, the inquisitor is actively trying to stop Solas, you can't choose otherwise. The inquisitor states that he will kill or redeem Solas, you can't choose otherwise. That stuff was in the game. The fact that you didn't latch on or care about it doesn't mean the devs didn't put it in there. As for why "the handicap wouldn't work in a BioWare game," why not?

[Eivuwan]

Oh, I dunno.

 

Say the new protagonist has nothing to do with the Inquisition but manages to be an influential figure in northern Thedas while staying engaged in their own business like, say, war with the Qunari or pushes for reform in Tevinter. The Inquisition contacts him for assistance and he can accept or tell them he's not interested. Solas will hopefully become the new Flemeth and his plot will be tangential to the main storyline in DA4. Since, you know, he's basically Corypheus rebooted. After all, the way a DA game ends has never been an indication to the next game's plot, now has it?

 

Well, I think your argument that the Inquisitor should return (to what probably will be a very different setting with its own plotlines) rests entirely on his potentially non-existent relationship to a villain that is pretty much identical to the villain from the last game, who wasn't all that great himself. I just want to know why you don't think that's an issue.

 

My main disagreement is that I don't think Solas is just a rehash of Corypheus. I think Solas is more morally grey. He is a complex character with both very good traits (intelligence, compassion) and very bad traits (pride, guilt). He seems to be always struggling between these different traits and feelings. I think he's a multifaceted character that I want to redeem.

[Nefla]

You mean like DA2 heavily implied that DA3 was going to be about the Mage-Templar War?

So you feel that was done well and would like to see it again? Because I sure don't. Spending a whole game building up a conflict and then doing a "rocks fall, everyone dies" before the next game even starts wasn't exactly brilliant storytelling. A mage/templar war had so much more potential than the "ancient evil awakens and you are the chosen one who is the only person capable of defeating him and saving the world" that we got instead.

[Homeboundcrib]

I think for those of us who want the inqusitor back see the connection they share with Solas, hate,love whatever and wish to see that story have closure and not left to some new guy or girl that has no connection, no real motive Except for the same old there is a bad guy gotta go stop him. For us who want the inqusitor back, trespasser left everything open didn't really close the story and made there story arc more compelling for us.

Now for the hand lol I agree with Neflathat it would be an awesome opportunity to play as someone who is missing a hand. I don't see how giving someone a prosthetic hand/ arm would be bad, iron bull was meant to have one. His was a cannon looking thing lol. So it can be done and was thought about. It would also be a good reason to start at level one again, learning how to fight again and all that.

[Gwydden]

It doesn't matter if you like the plot Trespasser is hinting at, the choice isn't "BioWare keeps its' planned plotline and the inquisitor is the protagonist" VS "completely new story with new protagonist about a Tevinter slave revolt or a Tevinter/Qunari war" the only thing that could possibly be affected is whether the protagonist is the inquisitor or some new guy. The story will be the same. The fact that BioWare wrote a connection between the inquisitor and Solas isn't hypothetical. Solas saves your life twice, miraculously finds Skyhold for you when your people are destitute and wandering the wilderness after Haven was destroyed. Everything that happened with Corypheus and the breach, everyone who died, it was all Solas' fault. He lied to the inquisitor the whole time and used them for his own ends. At the end of Trespasser, the inquisitor is actively trying to stop Solas, you can't choose otherwise. The inquisitor states that he will kill or redeem Solas, you can't choose otherwise. That stuff was in the game. The fact that you didn't latch on or care about it doesn't mean the devs didn't put it in there. As for why "the handicap wouldn't work in a BioWare game," why not?

Again, there's absolutely no reason to assure that. DA2 wasn't about Morrigan or the Eluvians. DAI wasn't about the Mage-Templar War. There's no reason whatsoever why DAI has to be about Solas, or to think that's the devs plan. It is only you assuming that for no solid reason.

 

And of course the Inquisitor would say he would kill Solas. Solas is trying to kill everyone! The Inquisitor also made some threats to Corypheus. Guess that means they have a complex relationship now. Really, your whole argument is that the Inquisitor should return because Solas. But why should new players care? Why should people who don't care about Solas care? That's a pretty shaky reason to bring back the Inquisitor and it hardly outweighs the cons.

 

And I already pointed out why a handicap wouldn't work. It simply doesn't mesh with the gameplay.

 

My main disagreement is that I don't think Solas is just a rehash of Corypheus. I think Solas is more morally grey. He is a complex character with both very good traits (intelligence, compassion) and very bad traits (pride, guilt). He seems to be always struggling between these different traits and feelings. I think he's a multifaceted character that I want to redeem.

Yes, but as a villain he is functionally the same. He still has the same goals and have roughly similar origins. Not much new here.

[Eivuwan]

So you feel that was done well and would like to see it again? Because I sure don't. Spending a whole game building up a conflict and then doing a "rocks fall, everyone dies" before the next game even starts wasn't exactly brilliant storytelling. A mage/templar war had so much more potential than the "ancient evil awakens and you are the chosen one who is the only person capable of defeating him and saving the world" that we got instead.

 

Might have been more interesting had they just made it so a bunch of blood mages accidentally opened the breach by screwing around with Solas' orb. This would further exacerbate the mage templar conflict and the game could have brought that to a resolution with Solas still being involved in a similar manner.

[midnight tea]

Oh, I like Solas, I just don't like the plot Trespasser is hinting at and want Bioware to be more ambitious than "Well, we suck at main plots anyway, so we're just going to give up without even trying and deliver a slight variation of our usual sucky formula."

 

And I would love to hear how you respond to the fact that the whole "personal motivation" business is all hypothetical and that other fact that the Inquisitor's handicap wouldn't work in a Bioware game.

 

How is giving us possibly a second protagonist with a developed (whether negative or positive) connection to former companion/current antagonist NOT ambitious? In what world this is "a slight variation of usual sucky formula", when usual "sucky" formula is "big bad appears; new hero - rise and kill!"?

 

Also - how is it  "fact" that Inquisitor's handicap "wouldn't work in a Bioware game"?

 

It's not a fact - it's just a claim; the one you do nothing to back up.

 

Same with "hypothetical" personal motivation - in what world is it 'hypothetical'? It really is beyond me how some people can claim that relationship with Solas is only "hypothetical", or wouldn't elicit any sort of strong reaction in pretty much any Inquisitor - and instead try to claim that the apparent "default" for their connection is just the fact that Solas just happened to be a 'random companion' or something of the sort.

 

Right - a random companion that saved Inky's life at least twice. A random companion that basically gave Inquisition his castle. A random companion that gave Corypheus the orb and started everything. A random companion that saved South from the Qunari and turns out to be a legendary hero though to be god. Oh, and that reminds me - a random companion who created the frikking Veil and now plans to destroy or change the world, including Inky and his loved ones.

 

How badly people would have to bend over backwards to just ignore all of that? Even the most incompetent and stupidest of Inquisitors who almost forgot about Solas's existence wouldn't realistically be just "meh" about it after reveals in Trespasser.

[CardButton]

Oh, I dunno.

 

Say the new protagonist has nothing to do with the Inquisition but manages to be an influential figure in northern Thedas while staying engaged in their own business like, say, war with the Qunari or pushes for reform in Tevinter. The Inquisition contacts him for assistance and he can accept or tell them he's not interested. Solas will hopefully become the new Flemeth and his plot will be tangential to the main storyline in DA4. Since, you know, he's basically Corypheus rebooted. After all, the way a DA game ends has never been an indication to the next game's plot, now has it?

 

Well, I think your argument that the Inquisitor should return (to what probably will be a very different setting with its own plotlines) rests entirely on his potentially non-existent relationship to a villain that is pretty much identical to the villain from the last game, who wasn't all that great himself. I just want to know why you don't think that's an issue.

Because the current set of preferred theorized story elements for those who want a new PC in DA:4 seem to revolve around a New Protagonist dealing with a time of Civil Unrest (Slave Rebellion), a War (Tevinter/Qunari) and a thwarting an Antagonist who was set up in a Previous Game (Solas).  Even if there is a number of other story lines and choices differentiating the game, doesn't this basic setup seem awfully familiar to anyone?  

[Gwydden]

So you feel that was done well and would like to see it again? Because I sure don't. Spending a whole game building up a conflict and then doing a "rocks fall, everyone dies" before the next game even starts wasn't exactly brilliant storytelling. A mage/templar war had so much more potential than the "ancient evil awakens and you are the chosen one who is the only person capable of defeating him and saving the world" that we got instead.

It would have been better, but hardly a good idea. I was way past my mage-templar exhaustion point by the time DAI kicked in. There's only so many times you can make into a major plot point without oversaturating the audience past caring.

[Eivuwan]

Again, there's absolutely no reason to assure that. DA2 wasn't about Morrigan or the Eluvians. DAI wasn't about the Mage-Templar War. There's no reason whatsoever why DAI has to be about Solas, or to think that's the devs plan. It is only you assuming that for no solid reason.

 

And of course the Inquisitor would say he would kill Solas. Solas is trying to kill everyone! The Inquisitor also made some threats to Corypheus. Guess that means they have a complex relationship now. Really, your whole argument is that the Inquisitor should return because Solas. But why should new players care? Why should people who don't care about Solas care? That's a pretty shaky reason to bring back the Inquisitor and it hardly outweighs the cons.

 

And I already pointed out why a handicap wouldn't work. It simply doesn't mesh with the gameplay.

 

Yes, but as a villain he is functionally the same. He still has the same goals and have roughly similar origins. Not much new here.

 

Not really, you get a chance to try to redeem him, which we didn't get with Corypheus. Trying to redeem a stubborn ass demi-god is going to be pretty difficult and I'm curious as to how they will implement that into the next game.

[midnight tea]

I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

What I'm saying is that Trespasser is no more indication of what DA4's main plot will be about than Witch Hunt was an indication of what DA2 was going to be about or Act 3 of DA2 (or MotA, if you're going for out-of-game chronology) was for DAI.

 

Really now, at this point you're twisting facts to suit your logic, rather than adjust your logic to facts.

 

We're not talking about out-of-the-game chronology, but IN GAME chronology. No previous DA game had a proper epilogue - the one where the protagonist is left in pretty much exactly same spot, no matter of play-through or decisions made; that is, in case of Trespasser: going after Solas and trying to stop him with clear indication that the key to this lies in Tevinter.