1659 réponses à ce sujet

[Gwydden]

How is giving us a second protagonist with a developed (whether negative or positive) connection to former companion/current antagonist NOT ambitious? In what world this is "a slight variation of usual sucky formula", when usual "sucky" formula is "big bad appears; new hero - rise and kill!"?

It's been done to death. ME3 kind of did it with TIM, in fact, to terrible results. It relies on a relationship new players will not have experienced and many old players do not care about. It brings problems with the new setting, as the Inquisitor wouldn't be invested in the local conflicts. It causes too much baggage to be carried over from the previous game.

 

Also - how is it  "fact" that Inquisitor's handicap "wouldn't work in a Bioware game"?

 

It's not a fact - it's just a claim; the one you do nothing to back up.

I've done plenty. You can claim my argument is not convincing, but not that it doesn't exist.

 

Same with "hypothetical" personal motivation - in what world is it 'hypothetical'? It really is beyond me how some people can claim that relationship with Solas is only "hypothetical", or wouldn't elicit any sort of strong reaction in pretty much any Inquisitor - and instead try to claim that the apparent "default" for their connection is just the fact that Solas just happened to be a 'random companion' or something of the sort.

 

Right - a random companion that saved Inky's life at least twice. A random companion that basically gave Inquisition his castle. A random companion that gave Corypheus the orb and started everything. A random companion that saved South from the Qunari and turns out to be a legendary hero though to be god. Oh, and that reminds me - a random companion who created the frikking Veil and now plans to destroy or change the world, including Inky and his loved ones.

 

How badly people would have to bend over backwards to just ignore all of that? Even the most incompetent and stupidest of Inquisitors who almost forgot about Solas's existence wouldn't realistically be just "meh" about it after reveals in Trespasser.

Not "meh," certainly, but just because someone saved your life and helped you SAVE THE WORLD doesn't mean you have to share a "personal connection" to them or you would feel any different about fighting them than if it were any random villain.

 

Because the current set of preferred theorized story elements for those who want a new PC in DA:4 seem to revolve around a New Protagonist dealing with a time of Civil Unrest (Slave Rebellion), a War (Tevinter/Qunari) and a thwarting an Antagonist who was set up in a Previous Game (Solas).  Even if there is a number of other story lines and choices differentiating the game, doesn't this basic setup seem awfully familiar to anyone?  

Possibly because DA2 was the one Bioware game that tried something different and we'd like to see the concept done right. You know, without the rushed development.

 

And Solas as the main antagonist was never part of the plan. I want him to be as tangential to the next game as possible.

[Homeboundcrib]

Again, there's absolutely no reason to assure that. DA2 wasn't about Morrigan or the Eluvians. DAI wasn't about the Mage-Templar War. There's no reason whatsoever why DAI has to be about Solas, or to think that's the devs plan. It is only you assuming that for no solid reason.

And of course the Inquisitor would say he would kill Solas. Solas is trying to kill everyone! The Inquisitor also made some threats to Corypheus. Guess that means they have a complex relationship now. Really, your whole argument is that the Inquisitor should return because Solas. But why should new players care? Why should people who don't care about Solas care? That's a pretty shaky reason to bring back the Inquisitor and it hardly outweighs the cons.

And I already pointed out why a handicap wouldn't work. It simply doesn't mesh with the gameplay.

Yes, but as a villain he is functionally the same. He still has the same goals and have roughly similar origins. Not much new here.

Solas is not the same old black and white villain. He is completely in a grey area. He has a heart you can see that in the game. Corypheus had none of that. If he was the same old bad guy why would we be giving the chance to redeem him.

[Gwydden]

Really now, at this point you're twisting facts to suit your logic, rather than adjust your logic to facts.

 

We're not talking about out-of-the-game chronology, but IN GAME chronology. No previous DA game had a proper epilogue - the one where the protagonist is left in pretty much exactly same spot, no matter of play-through or decisions made; that is, in case of Trespasser: going after Solas and trying to stop him with clear indication that the key to this lies in Tevinter.

I'm just pointing out they've never been as predictable as you make them out to be. There's no guarantee whatsoever that the next game will focus on Solas.

 

And I was concerning myself with in-game chronology? Awakening and Witch Hunt were epilogues of sorts. Act 3 was DA2's final chapter.

[Gwydden]

Solas is not the same old black and white villain. He is completely in a grey area. He has a heart you can see that in the game. Corypheus had none of that. If he was the same old bad guy why would we be giving the chance to redeem him.

You mean like TIM was grey in ME3?

 

TIM: I just want what's best for humanity!

 

Shepard: You do realize what you're doing will make almost everyone everywhere die, right?

 

Solas: I just want what's best for the Elvhen!

 

Inquisitor: You do realize what you're doing will make almost everyone everywhere die, right?

 

And you could even redeem TIM too! How... grey.

[Nefla]

Again, there's absolutely no reason to assure that. DA2 wasn't about Morrigan or the Eluvians. DAI wasn't about the Mage-Templar War. There's no reason whatsoever why DAI has to be about Solas, or to think that's the devs plan. It is only you assuming that for no solid reason.

 

And of course the Inquisitor would say he would kill Solas. Solas is trying to kill everyone! The Inquisitor also made some threats to Corypheus. Guess that means they have a complex relationship now. Really, your whole argument is that the Inquisitor should return because Solas. But why should new players care? Why should people who don't care about Solas care? That's a pretty shaky reason to bring back the Inquisitor and it hardly outweighs the cons.

 

And I already pointed out why a handicap wouldn't work. It simply doesn't mesh with the gameplay.

 

Yes, but as a villain he is functionally the same. He still has the same goals and have roughly similar origins. Not much new here.

The point is that BioWare went out of their way to make sure you know that 1) The inquisitor is out of either redemption or revenge, 2) The inquisition is continuing to operate, with the goal of stopping Solas, 3) The inquisition is going to Tevinter to find people Solas doesn't know (and that Dorian is in Tevinter and now has his own fledgling faction in the Magesterium)

 

By "gameplay" I assume you mean combat. The combat in DA:I was in my opinion atrocious. It being changed and overhauled would be a blessing.

[Eivuwan]

You mean like TIM was grey in ME3?

 

TIM: I just want what's best for humanity!

 

Shepard: You do realize what you're doing will make almost everyone everywhere die, right?

 

Solas: I just want what's best for the Elvhen!

 

Inquisitor: You do realize what you're doing will make almost everyone everywhere die, right?

 

And you could even redeem TIM too! How... grey.

 

It's not just about what is done, but how it's done. We get to know a lot more of those little details about Solas through banter, conversation, lore, etc that we didn't get with TIM.

[Gwydden]

The point is that BioWare went out of their way to make sure you know that 1) The inquisitor is out of either redemption or revenge,

I'm not sure why you assume either of those has to be a motivation. Self-preservation and the continuity of civilization are good enough reasons to want to kill him.

 

2) The inquisition is continuing to operate, with the goal of stopping Solas, 3) The inquisition is going to Tevinter to find people Solas doesn't know (and that Dorian is in Tevinter and now has his own fledgling faction in the Magesterium)

Which in your book means?

 

By "gameplay" I assume you mean combat. The combat in DA:I was in my opinion atrocious. It being changed and overhauled would be a blessing.

I mean the gameplay of all three games. All fighting styles require two arms. Two-handed sword? As the name subtly implies, you need two hands for that. Sword and shield? Two arms. Bow? Two arms. Double daggers? Two arms. Even mages need two arms for most of their moves, if animations are to be trusted. But even if you don't count them, you can't make only mage Inquisitors fight.

[Nefla]

You mean like TIM was grey in ME3?

 

TIM: I just want what's best for humanity!

 

Shepard: You do realize what you're doing will make almost everyone everywhere die, right?

 

Solas: I just want what's best for the Elvhen!

 

Inquisitor: You do realize what you're doing will make almost everyone everywhere die, right?

 

And you could even redeem TIM too! How... grey.

TIM's character was assassinated in ME3, hopefully BioWare doesn't make that mistake again.

[CardButton]

 

Possibly because DA2 was the one Bioware game that tried something different and we'd like to see the concept done right. You know, without the rushed development.

 

And Solas as the main antagonist was never part of the plan. I want him to be as tangential to the next game as possible.

Did I say people thought he should be the main Antagonist? I said he is expected to be an Antagonist ... and I wasn't talking about DA2 (though I agree it was nice to see Bioware try something different, even if its execution was full of problems). I was talking about the overarching story of DA:I.  A new protagonist (The Inquisitor/Herald), dealing with a time of Civil Unrest (The Mage Rebellion), a War (The Orlais Civil War) and thwarting an Antagonist who was set up in a Previous Game (Corypheus).  

 

I bet you that if given the option many people would have loved to see Hawke return as the primary PC for Inquisition and deal with Corypheus himself/herself, in fact I've see some arguments supporting that that was meant to be case.  As flawed as DA2 was, its major problems seemed to stem from a really rushed 3rd Chapter where many of the Players Decisions didn't really matter, but not necessarily the events themselves.  The key problem with DA:I is that so much of what the Inquisitor is doing is simply dealing with problems that were set up in previous games (which intrinsically removes their connection to them).  

 

Imagine if Hawke had returned to be the Protagonist for DA:I, learned to take some genuine responsibility over more than just his/her family, got to become a leader of a World influencing organization, concluded the Mage/Templar war, saved their sibling (assuming they joined the Grey Wardens) from the catastrophe at Adamant and finally getting to put the final nail in the coffin of his/her past by defeating Corypheus.  As much as I didn't particularly like DA2 (and would miss selecting a Race) even I would think that would be an epic way to tie up all lose ends and an amazing way to wrap up the legacy of Hawke (where he/she actually succeeded in doing something world changing and leave him/her in a genuine place where they could do more good for the world, even if it was from behind a desk). 

 

Which is why I don't want to see a repeat performance of DA:I (as much as there are some things I really love about it), because I don't expect a different result. The Inquisitor could be made to fill the role in DA4 that Hawke could have filled so well in DA:I.  Dealing with new and old problems of their own (rather than the problems of other PCs) and finally get a genuine chance to grow as a character and complete something that they are intrinsically related to (regardless of how little or how much you actually dealt with optional Solas).

[Nefla]

I'm not sure why you assume either of those has to be a motivation. Self-preservation and the continuity of civilization are good enough reasons to want to kill him.

That's not a good enough reason for me. We've seen it a million times and it doesn't make me care. I need a human element, "the world ending" does nothing for me.

 

 

 

Which in your book means?

It means the game won't be something unrelated like a Tevinter/Qunari war, the inquisition and inquisitor won't just disappear, the antagonist will be Solas, and Dorian will appear. 

 

 

I mean the gameplay of all three games. All fighting styles require two arms. Two-handed sword? As the name subtly implies, you need two hands for that. Sword and shield? Two arms. Bow? Two arms. Double daggers? Two arms. Even mages need two arms for most of their moves, if animations are to be trusted. But even if you don't count them, you can't make only mage Inquisitors fight.

Good thing they've kept the combat so consistent in DA! I especially enjoyed my healing-I mean blood magic-um my rogue traps...oh wait, it's almost like they already changed it. Fenris, Carver, and Hawke sure didn't need two hands to use their two handed swords, you want a shield or a second dagger? Strap something onto that arm stump, BioWare themselves even designed a crossbow appliance in one of the epilogue slides. it wouldn't be any less realistic than backflipping through the air, not being melted from dragon fire, etc...Overall, I value combat very little (especially when it's as bad as DA:I's) so I'll take a better story and more interesting character over not having to change combat animations any day.

[Homeboundcrib]

You mean like TIM was grey in ME3?

TIM: I just want what's best for humanity!

Shepard: You do realize what you're doing will make almost everyone everywhere die, right?

Solas: I just want what's best for the Elvhen!

Inquisitor: You do realize what you're doing will make almost everyone everywhere die, right?

And you could even redeem TIM too! How... grey.

Yes you are right there they both want what is best. But we learn more about Solas through Cole and banter, we learn that there is a lot more to Solas because of that. I don't think TIM was in a grey area. They may just be me though.

[Gwydden]

Imagine if Hawke had returned to be the Protagonist for DA:I.

I'm imagining it, and I don't like it. Each protagonist has its own particular identity. Hawke worked as a refugee making her way in Kirkwall because she was designed that way. I doubt she would have worked as well as leader of the Inquisition.

 

Which is part of why I want a new protagonist. I doubt the Inquisitor will work well in a very different setting where he is not longer the Inquisitor except maybe in a nominal way.

 

That's not a good enough reason for me. We've seen it a million times and it doesn't make me care. I need a human element, "the world ending" does nothing for me.

The world ending does nothing for me, which is why I don't want it at all. I almost didn't purchase DAI for that reason (and how terrible the implementation of the open world looked) and I don't think I have another sixty dollars for DA4 if it ends up the same way.

 

It means the game won't be something unrelated like a Tevinter/Qunari war, the inquisition and inquisitor won't just disappear, the antagonist will be Solas, and Dorian will appear. 

Assumptions, assumptions.

 

Good thing they've kept the combat so consistent in DA! I especially enjoyed my healing-I mean blood magic-um my rogue traps...oh wait, it's almost like they already changed it. Fenris, Carver, and Hawke sure didn't need two hands to use their two handed swords, you want a shield or a second dagger? Strap something onto that arm stump, BioWare themselves even designed a crossbow appliance in one of the epilogue slides. it wouldn't be any less realistic than backflipping through the air, not being melted from dragon fire, etc...Overall, I value combat very little (especially when it's as bad as DA:I's) so I'll take a better story and more interesting character over not having to change combat animations any day.

Oh, yes. Every Bioware protagonist is the killing machine to end all killing machines, and this one will manage it with a medieval prosthetic. Sounds reasonable. I can imagine the riveting story of disability where the disability has no ill effects at all, since he can fight like new and all. And I look forward to new players introduced to a protagonist that lost a limb when they have no idea why. Riveting indeed.

 

I don't care for gameplay either, but removing a character's arm and then making it have zero impact on the gameplay? Very crappy design indeed Bioware. Why take his arm in the first place, then? Kinda pointless.

[Nefla]

The world ending does nothing for me, which is why I don't want it at all. I almost didn't purchase DAI for that reason (and how terrible the implementation of the open world looked) and I don't think I have another sixty dollars for DA4 if it ends up the same way.

So why do you think they set up a new world ending story at the end of Trespasser then? To...intentionally discard it and do something unrelated?

 

 

Assumptions, assumptions.

Based on what BioWare beat us over the head with.

 

 

 

Oh, yes. Every Bioware protagonist is the killing machine to end all killing machines, and this one will manage it with a medieval prosthetic. Sounds reasonable. I can imagine the riveting story of disability where the disability has no ill effects at all, since he can fight like new and all. And I look forward to new players introduced to a protagonist that lost a limb when they have no idea why. Riveting indeed.

 

I don't care for gameplay either, but removing a character's arm and then making it have zero impact on the gameplay? Very crappy design indeed Bioware. Why take his arm in the first place, then? Kinda pointless.

 

There's already a huge amount of gameplay/story segregation. The lost limb could come up in the story and an appliance could suffice in combat. It would be an excuse to start over at lv 1. As for new players: when you start a series in a later entry, you won't know what's going on. If they did have the inquisitor as the protagonist of DA4, I can't see them just...never mentioning what happened with Solas and the arm.

[leaguer of one]

TIM's character was assassinated in ME3, hopefully BioWare doesn't make that mistake again.

For the last time no it's not. Tim wanted to control the reapers and got controlled instead. That's it. It's not a character assassination if cover the entire character theme. Tim's story as well as Cerberus is about hubris. And Tim fell do to hubris. How is it character assassination if it fallows the theme of the character?

[leaguer of one]

It's not just about what is done, but how it's done. We get to know a lot more of those little details about Solas through banter, conversation, lore, etc that we didn't get with TIM.

Yes, we did. We have an entire base telling the motivation of Tim in ME3. If you see a reaper corpse in side his base then it clear what happened.

[Eivuwan]

Yes, we did. We have an entire base telling the motivation of Tim in ME3. If you see a reaper corpse in side his base then it clear what happened.

 

That was just one example. The biggest difference is that Solas was our companion or potentially lover.

[Gwydden]

So why do you think they set up a new world ending story at the end of Trespasser then? To...intentionally discard it and do something unrelated?

 

Based on what BioWare beat us over the head with.

Again, they had no problems discarding the Eluvians after Witch Hunt, or making the Mage-Templar War a minor subplot in DAI, or making Flemeth a recurring sideplot for three games in spite of her obvious importance. Usually, implying that X is going to happen and then having X happen just as expected is considered lazy storytelling. You've given up on them already; I like to think they can grow beyond that.

 

There's already a huge amount of gameplay/story segregation. The lost limb could come up in the story and an appliance could suffice in combat. It would be an excuse to start over at lv 1. As for new players: when you start a series in a later entry, you won't know what's going on. If they did have the inquisitor as the protagonist of DA4, I can't see them just...never mentioning what happened with Solas and the arm.

Then that will be terrible storytelling. You know how people were pissed off after being forced to lose to Kai Leng in ME3? Well, that's because gaming is an interactive medium and that should be taken into account by the designers when crafting the story. You cannot make a meaningful story about disability while acting like the disability is not a disability.

 

If they want to make such a story in a DA game they need to choose a handicap that goes with the gameplay, not one that actively fights against it. For example, take epilepsy. Having it didn't stop Caesar's political and military achievements. Missing an arm in a game based around fighting that requires two arms, which by necessity means every protagonist is the biggest badass within that game? That's counter-intuitive.

[The_Mac23]

This is why Alistair should have been the protagonist from the start of Origins. He was a Warden and key to the central conflict, as well as his relationships with the team (Morrigan, Sten). Putting Sten through the Joining to save him in Lothering would have been awesome! And being able to tel the nobles to shove it and stay with the Wardens instead of becoming King. I don't know, I think it could have worked well. HoF is overrated and Quizzy just sucks.

[leaguer of one]

That was just one example. The biggest difference is that Solas was our companion or potentially lover.

Ok. You got me there.

[leaguer of one]

Again, they had no problems discarding the Eluvians after Witch Hunt, or making the Mage-Templar War a minor subplot in DAI, or making Flemeth a recurring sideplot for three games in spite of her obvious importance. 

 

They mage temlar war was not a minor side plot. it just ended with out a victor. The Eluvians were far from put to the side being that it pretty close to the plot from witch hunt, masked empire, and DAI. And Flemeth being a side plot....Nope, not since we found out she Mythal and the motive for Solas to make the veal and imprison the elven gods.

[Eivuwan]

Again, they had no problems discarding the Eluvians after Witch Hunt, or making the Mage-Templar War a minor subplot in DAI, or making Flemeth a recurring sideplot for three games in spite of her obvious importance. Usually, implying that X is going to happen and then having X happen just as expected is considered lazy storytelling. You've given up on them already; I like to think they can grow beyond that.

 

 

Lol what....

[Gwydden]

Okay, let's try this. I think most of us would rather not have another game about saving the world. That's what Solas' plot is, yet you all still want to go through with it, arguing that Solas' relationship with the Inquisitor will make it better. Let's say I agree with that (which I don't, but I'll play along for this exercise). What else does this plot have going for it that makes it preferable to a fresh start as per usual? Because even if everyone was invested in it, you can't make a single relationship the basis for an entire game. There has to be something else.

 

So what is it that's got you sold? Those elusive arguments that help outweigh the problems of bringing back a protagonist that has never shined at anything other than being the Inquisitor; of taking him to the other end of Thedas where nothing that happens will matter in the slightest to him; of carrying over the baggage from the previous game, including the old companions and love interests; or worse yet, of bringing in a new cast to a game that's oddly obsessed with stuff from the previous one; of throwing new players into a story that's built upon a relationship they have never experienced. C'mon, throw 'em at me. What else does the Solas plot have on the pros column other than the fact that the Inquisitor knows him?

[Nefla]

Again, they had no problems discarding the Eluvians after Witch Hunt, or making the Mage-Templar War a minor subplot in DAI, or making Flemeth a recurring sideplot for three games in spite of her obvious importance. Usually, implying that X is going to happen and then having X happen just as expected is considered lazy storytelling. You've given up on them already; I like to think they can grow beyond that.

 

Then that will be terrible storytelling. You know how people were pissed off after being forced to lose to Kai Leng in ME3? Well, that's because gaming is an interactive medium and that should be taken into account by the designers when crafting the story. You cannot make a meaningful story about disability while acting like the disability is not a disability.

 

If they want to make such a story in a DA game they need to choose a handicap that goes with the gameplay, not one that actively fights against it. For example, take epilepsy. Having it didn't stop Caesar's political and military achievements. Missing an arm in a game based around fighting that requires two arms, which by necessity means every protagonist is the biggest badass within that game? That's counter-intuitive.

BioWare building up things as important (Flemeth, OGB and Morrigan, mage/templar war, etc...) and then just never resolving those plotlines or giving them a random, throwaway bit part is not good storytelling. I can't believe you want them to repeat that crap.

 

As far as I'm concerned, the combat and mechanics of it have no impact on the story. (You don't lose to Kai Leng in combat, you lose to him in a cutscene btw). I wish your side would stop acting like losing half of one arm means that the inquisitor would become some kind of bed-ridden invalid. Relearning how to fight with half an arm missing would be an excuse to start at level one but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be able to get used to fighting again. An appliance would be the easiest for BioWare since the combat animations could stay mostly the same but changing their fighting style would be fine too. 

[Nefla]

Okay, let's try this. I think most of us would rather not have another game about saving the world. That's what Solas' plot is, yet you all still want to go through with it, arguing that Solas' relationship with the Inquisitor will make it better. Let's say I agree with that (which I don't, but I'll play along for this exercise). What else does this plot have going for it that makes it preferable to a fresh start as per usual? Because even if everyone was invested in it, you can't make a single relationship the basis for an entire game. There has to be something else.

 

So what is it that's got you sold? Those elusive arguments that help outweigh the problems of bringing back a protagonist that has never shined at anything other than being the Inquisitor; of taking him to the other end of Thedas where nothing that happens will matter in the slightest to him; of carrying over the baggage from the previous game, including the old companions and love interests; or worse yet, of bringing in a new cast to a game that's oddly obsessed with stuff from the previous one; of throwing new players into a story that's built upon a relationship they have never experienced. C'mon, throw 'em at me. What else does the Solas plot have on the pros column other than the fact that the Inquisitor knows him?

-I was much more connected to the inquisitor and Solas' relationship than you guys and I do want to see what he does with the veil and what happens when it comes down, just not as some random dirt farmer

-BioWare already set the ball rolling, either they do it justice or they half-ass it like with the mage/templar "war"

-I REALLY want to play a protagonist with a missing limb

-I want them to actually follow through on the things they lay groundwork for and not just ignore them and resolve them in an unsatisfying way in a sidequest 3 games from now

[Eivuwan]

Okay, let's try this. I think most of us would rather not have another game about saving the world. That's what Solas' plot is, yet you all still want to go through with it, arguing that Solas' relationship with the Inquisitor will make it better. Let's say I agree with that (which I don't, but I'll play along for this exercise). What else does this plot have going for it that makes it preferable to a fresh start as per usual? Because even if everyone was invested in it, you can't make a single relationship the basis for an entire game. There has to be something else.

 

So what is it that's got you sold? Those elusive arguments that help outweigh the problems of bringing back a protagonist that has never shined at anything other than being the Inquisitor; of taking him to the other end of Thedas where nothing that happens will matter in the slightest to him; of carrying over the baggage from the previous game, including the old companions and love interests; or worse yet, of bringing in a new cast to a game that's oddly obsessed with stuff from the previous one; of throwing new players into a story that's built upon a relationship they have never experienced. C'mon, throw 'em at me. What else does the Solas plot have on the pros column other than the fact that the Inquisitor knows him?

 

Bioware is not going to make a game with drastically different outcomes so you're always going to be a hero saving something. Saving a world, saving a town, saving a person, who cares. I care about the process of the saving and the companions we meet along the way. No one is saying that the Solas Inquisitor conflict would be the only issue throughout the entire game. You can easily write in slave uprising, Titan activity, or maybe something with the evanuris as plot twists.

 

Edit: Oh and there's the looking for a cure for the blight thing too. So many other side plots that Bioware can write into the game.