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New protagonists every game dont work with current game foundation


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#1226
Gwydden

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BioWare building up things as important (Flemeth, OGB and Morrigan, mage/templar war, etc...) and then just never resolving those plotlines or giving them a random, throwaway bit part is not good storytelling. I can't believe you want them to repeat that crap.

Ideally, they wouldn't have opened that can of worms at all. But the ship has sailed, so we are left with two options. Either they try to solve it as some sort of subplot or we have another "save the world" scenario on our hands. What's this, like the sixth time? I'll go with the lesser of two evils.

 

As far as I'm concerned, the combat and mechanics of it have no impact on the story. (You don't lose to Kai Leng in combat, you lose to him in a cutscene btw). I wish your side would stop acting like losing half of one arm means that the inquisitor would become some kind of bed-ridden invalid. Relearning how to fight with half an arm missing would be an excuse to start at level one but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be able to get used to fighting again. An appliance would be the easiest for BioWare since the combat animations could stay mostly the same but changing their fighting style would be fine too. 

I can see how very insightful it would be to play as someone with a disability without suffering any of the drawbacks. Now if that doesn't get people to empathize nothing will. And I thought losing a limb made some things more difficult for you!

 

I never said the Inquisitor would be a "bed-ridden invalid." I'm saying the fighting styles in DA games don't mesh with his current anatomy. Most fighting styles don't, actually. That limits options, something that won't appeal to most people who play the game. And if Bioware pulls a never-mentioned prosthetic out of their collective ass that will be one of their dumbest moves ever. It defeats both the purpose of having a character with a disability and that of having the Inquisitor lose an arm in the first place.



#1227
leaguer of one

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Okay, let's try this. I think most of us would rather not have another game about saving the world. That's what Solas' plot is, yet you all still want to go through with it, arguing that Solas' relationship with the Inquisitor will make it better. Let's say I agree with that (which I don't, but I'll play along for this exercise). What else does this plot have going for it that makes it preferable to a fresh start as per usual? Because even if everyone was invested in it, you can't make a single relationship the basis for an entire game. There has to be something else.

 

So what is it that's got you sold? Those elusive arguments that help outweigh the problems of bringing back a protagonist that has never shined at anything other than being the Inquisitor; of taking him to the other end of Thedas where nothing that happens will matter in the slightest to him; of carrying over the baggage from the previous game, including the old companions and love interests; or worse yet, of bringing in a new cast to a game that's oddly obsessed with stuff from the previous one; of throwing new players into a story that's built upon a relationship they have never experienced. C'mon, throw 'em at me. What else does the Solas plot have on the pros column other than the fact that the Inquisitor knows him?

Sorry, in hind sight all of dragon age is about saving the world. In every game story so far the pc in one way or another seem to be fighting the blight or blighted beings. The arch demon, Meredith hooked on to red lyruim which is really blighted lyruim, and then Cory. For all we no Solas maybe trying to stop the blight as well. Also, nothing is say the pc of the next game is going to be force to stop Solas, they may even side with him.

 

But regardless, we are still in a long linked plot about the heroes of thedas trying to save their world from an epidemic made from a long forgotten war in the past.



#1228
Nefla

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Ideally, they wouldn't have opened that can of worms at all. But the ship has sailed, so we are left with two options. Either they try to solve it as some sort of subplot or we have another "save the world" scenario on our hands. What's this, like the sixth time? I'll go with the lesser of two evils.

 

I can see how very insightful it would be to play as someone with a disability without suffering any of the drawbacks. Now if that doesn't get people to empathize nothing will. And I thought losing a limb made some things more difficult for you!

 

I never said the Inquisitor would be a "bed-ridden invalid." I'm saying the fighting styles in DA games don't mesh with his current anatomy. Most fighting styles don't, actually. That limits options, something that won't appeal to most people who play the game. And if Bioware pulls a never-mentioned prosthetic out of their collective ass that will be one of their dumbest moves ever. It defeats both the purpose of having a character with a disability and that of having the Inquisitor lose an arm in the first place.

It's like banging my head against a Cheshire Cat shaped wall...



#1229
In Exile

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You mean like TIM was grey in ME3?

 

TIM: I just want what's best for humanity!

 

Shepard: You do realize what you're doing will make almost everyone everywhere die, right?

 

Solas: I just want what's best for the Elvhen!

 

Inquisitor: You do realize what you're doing will make almost everyone everywhere die, right?

 

And you could even redeem TIM too! How... grey.

 

But Solas doesn't really want what's best for the "elvhen". He's just struggling with his guilt for doing what he thought was best for them. Remember, he feels responsible for having essentially perpetrated a genocide. He feels that the only way to remedy that - to at least some extent - is to try to re-create the people he erased from existence. Whether that's "best", well, that's sort of besides the point. 



#1230
Gwydden

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-I was much more connected to the inquisitor and Solas' relationship than you guys and I do want to see what he does with the veil and what happens when it comes down, just not as some random dirt farmer

That's... not a different reason.

 

-BioWare already set the ball rolling, either they do it justice or they half-ass it like with the mage/templar "war"

I don't subscribe to the "they screwed up, so they better screw it up good" philosophy. Same reason I don't care to see anything set up in the Milky Way post-ME3.

 

-I REALLY want to play a protagonist with a missing limb

And I really wanted them to avoid making Solas into another world-threatening villain. We all face our little disappointments in life.



#1231
Eivuwan

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Ideally, they wouldn't have opened that can of worms at all. But the ship has sailed, so we are left with two options. Either they try to solve it as some sort of subplot or we have another "save the world" scenario on our hands. What's this, like the sixth time? I'll go with the lesser of two evils.

 

I can see how very insightful it would be to play as someone with a disability without suffering any of the drawbacks. Now if that doesn't get people to empathize nothing will. And I thought losing a limb made some things more difficult for you!

 

I never said the Inquisitor would be a "bed-ridden invalid." I'm saying the fighting styles in DA games don't mesh with his current anatomy. Most fighting styles don't, actually. That limits options, something that won't appeal to most people who play the game. And if Bioware pulls a never-mentioned prosthetic out of their collective ass that will be one of their dumbest moves ever. It defeats both the purpose of having a character with a disability and that of having the Inquisitor lose an arm in the first place.

 

About the disability thing. They could make a small quest or two about your process of obtaining the prosthetic and training with it to make it more realistic.


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#1232
Eivuwan

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But Solas doesn't really want what's best for the "elvhen". He's just struggling with his guilt for doing what he thought was best for them. Remember, he feels responsible for having essentially perpetrated a genocide. He feels that the only way to remedy that - to at least some extent - is to try to re-create the people he erased from existence. Whether that's "best", well, that's sort of besides the point. 

 

I don't think it's re-creating. He implied that there are a bunch of ancient elves somewhere. They may be sleeping.



#1233
Gwydden

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It's like banging my head against a Cheshire Cat shaped wall...

I can imagine why. You say gameplay/story segregation don't matter. I say that if applied in this case, the whole point of having a protagonist with a disability is missed. It just turns into something shallow like a pity party or a checkmark in the representation checklist. Again, I'm thinking I expect more of them than you do.


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#1234
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I don't think it's re-creating. He implied that there are a bunch of ancient elves somewhere. They may be sleeping.

 

Ancient elves - the kind that Solas talks about - don't exist. Even he's not that kind of elf anymore. The immortality, etc., that's all gone. What he wants to restore isn't a society (remember, he was instrumental in trying to tear down that entire social order), or even its people (remember, almost all of them are dead and buried, as is their society). 

 

He wants to tear down the Veil to re-create a Thedas he fundamentally locked away. It's not even clear he can re-create that world, even if he removes the Veil. 



#1235
Gwydden

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About the disability thing. They could make a small quest or two about your process of obtaining the prosthetic and training with it to make it more realistic.

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#1236
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I can imagine why. You say gameplay/story segregation don't matter. I say that if applied in this case, the whole point of having a protagonist with a disability is missed. It just turns into something shallow like a pity party or a checkmark in the representation checklist. Again, I'm thinking I expect more of them than you do.

 

There's absolutely no chance Bioware invests the absurd amount of resources required to create a special mode of gameplay for the protagonist alone, which essentially means 2 parallel combat systems for the PC and the party. Plus all of the cost re: animation, movement, etc. For 6 character models. 



#1237
Eivuwan

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Ancient elves - the kind that Solas talks about - don't exist. Even he's not that kind of elf anymore. The immortality, etc., that's all gone. What he wants to restore isn't a society (remember, he was instrumental in trying to tear down that entire social order), or even its people (remember, almost all of them are dead and buried, as is their society). 

 

He wants to tear down the Veil to re-create a Thedas he fundamentally locked away. It's not even clear he can re-create that world, even if he removes the Veil. 

 

We don't know for sure, but he used the word "save" as much as he used the word "restore." He also told Abelas that there were elvhen like himself somewhere. There was also a Cole and Solas banter about people sleeping behind mirrors. This makes me think that he wants to save the actual people from Arlathan as much as recreating that world.



#1238
Gwydden

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There's absolutely no chance Bioware invests the absurd amount of resources required to create a special mode of gameplay for the protagonist alone, which essentially means 2 parallel combat systems for the PC and the party. Plus all of the cost re: animation, movement, etc. For 6 character models. 

Which is kind of my point. It can't be done well. Not in DA.

 

It's pretty damn obvious to me that the whole reason they cut off the Inquisitor's arm was to get the point across that his fighting days were over e.g. no, he's not coming back as the protagonist in a future game. Funny how that backfired.


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#1239
Eivuwan

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Which is kind of my point. It can't be done well. Not in DA.

 

It's pretty damn obvious to me that the whole reason they cut off the Inquisitor's arm was to get the point across that his fighting days were over e.g. no, he's not coming back as the protagonist in a future game. Funny how that backfired.

 

It's so obvious that if you chose to be a red jenny you can get a crossbow arm.


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#1240
Nefla

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#1241
Nefla

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I can imagine why. You say gameplay/story segregation don't matter. I say that if applied in this case, the whole point of having a protagonist with a disability is missed. It just turns into something shallow like a pity party or a checkmark in the representation checklist. Again, I'm thinking I expect more of them than you do.

I definitely think it would be more of an emotional thing than a physical one, having to deal with a part of your body missing, not being able to do things the way you used to, having to relearn everything. I want the drama. You may not like it, but I do.


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#1242
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We don't know for sure, but he used the word "save" as much as he used the word "restore." He also told Abelas that there were elvhen like himself somewhere. There was also a Cole and Solas banter about people sleeping behind mirrors. This makes me think that he wants to save the actual people from Arlathan as much as recreating that world.

 

The mirror banter was about the Evanuris - the implications of the beings trapped were quite dark, so to speak. 

 

Solas wants to save what he can of his people - who are still around, because he blames himself for their suffering. But when he talks about the Veil, and when he talks to the Inquisitor at the end of Trespasser - he doesn't make it about saving people. He makes it about re-creating the world. It's why the talks about the waking up to a world of tranquil. He doesn't focus on this world's lack of ancient elves, so much as on the fact that this world no longer is like his own. 

 

You see it whenever he reflects on the ancient elves, and what was lost. It's always the beauty of their magic, the building blocks of their society, the way that spirits existed in the world in absence of the Veil. 



#1243
Nefla

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It's pretty damn obvious to me that the whole reason they cut off the Inquisitor's arm was to get the point across that his fighting days were over e.g. no, he's not coming back as the protagonist in a future game. Funny how that backfired.

I agree. I see it as an excuse for the inquisitor to be "helpless" and therefore moved to the background. Obviously I hate that idea.



#1244
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I definitely think it would be more of an emotional thing than a physical one, having to deal with a part of your body missing, not being able to do things the way you used to, having to relearn everything. I want the drama. You may not like it, but I do.

 

But, ultimately, that drama wouldn't feature. Because there couldn't be a game until you overcame all of it, up-front. So it would all just be reduced to the narm-level whining over having lost a limb without really facing any of the difficulties of being without one, or the whole game doesn't work. 


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#1245
Gwydden

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I definitely think it would be more of an emotional thing than a physical one, having to deal with a part of your body missing, not being able to do things the way you used to, having to relearn everything. I want the drama. You may not like it, but I do.

Oh, I would love the drama. But only if the drama's meaningful and not pointless whining where you don't actually have to face any difficulties from having a limb missing.

 

But, ultimately, that drama wouldn't feature. Because there couldn't be a game until you overcame all of it, up-front. So it would all just be reduced to the narm-level whining over having lost a limb without really facing any of the difficulties of being without one, or the whole game doesn't work. 

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#1246
Eivuwan

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The mirror banter was about the Evanuris - the implications of the beings trapped were quite dark, so to speak. 

 

Solas wants to save what he can of his people - who are still around, because he blames himself for their suffering. But when he talks about the Veil, and when he talks to the Inquisitor at the end of Trespasser - he doesn't make it about saving people. He makes it about re-creating the world. It's why the talks about the waking up to a world of tranquil. He doesn't focus on this world's lack of ancient elves, so much as on the fact that this world no longer is like his own. 

 

You see it whenever he reflects on the ancient elves, and what was lost. It's always the beauty of their magic, the building blocks of their society, the way that spirits existed in the world in absence of the Veil. 

 

I don't deny that restoration is part of his goal. The mirror banter thing is debatable because the banter implies that he feels bad for those trapped behind the mirrors. Yet Solas in Trespasser doesn't really like the envanuris. That's why I think there are a bunch of ancient elves trapped behind mirrors. He also mentioned saving a few times and not just restoration. He also said to Mythal that his people needed him. I think he wants to both "save" and "restore" and those are not mutually exclusive things. It's more interesting that way too because it makes it harder to just label him as a delusional big bad.



#1247
Gwydden

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I agree. I see it as an excuse for the inquisitor to be "helpless" and therefore moved to the background. Obviously I hate that idea.

Of course. Because the only valuable service one can provide is by handing out violence, right? Gee, guess I should have joined the army when I had the chance. Naturally, the Inquisitor won't be able to contribute his hard earned leadership skills, experience with diplomacy, control of a spy network, strategic thinking with military assets, logistical support, planning operations... Nope, the only way he can contribute is by fighting.

 

He was the leader of a powerful organization. If he had died at any point everyone would have been screwed (Herald of Andraste, remember?). He shouldn't even have been fighting anything in the first place.



#1248
Nefla

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Of course. Because the only valuable service one can provide is by handing out violence, right? Gee, guess I should have joined the army when I had the chance. Naturally, the Inquisitor won't be able to contribute his hard earned leadership skills, experience with diplomacy, control of a spy network, strategic thinking with military assets, logistical support, planning operations... Nope, the only way he can contribute is by fighting.

 

He was the leader of a powerful organization. If he had died at any point everyone would have been screwed (Herald of Andraste, remember?). He shouldn't even have been fighting anything in the first place.

Oh please :rolleyes:

 

As much as I wish it, DA4 isn't going to suddenly have radically different mechanics. If we could solve all our problems with stealth, diplomacy, and strategy I would LOVE that but that's not going to happen. The next protagonist will be like all the others, wading through endless mooks and so as always, tons of combat will be required. I don't want the inquisitor as an NPC no matter what. I either want to play as the inquisitor or I don't want to play DA4. The chance that we'll play as the inquisitor is tiny, but I want to know.



#1249
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But, ultimately, that drama wouldn't feature. Because there couldn't be a game until you overcame all of it, up-front. So it would all just be reduced to the narm-level whining over having lost a limb without really facing any of the difficulties of being without one, or the whole game doesn't work. 

Unless of course the create a simple mechanic where in which the prosthetic (especially during the early game) malfunctions at times during combat, or perhaps causes your character to flinch in pain; you could augment this by making it do it more often if it takes damage (loosely basing it off of the mechanic they used for the Anchor in the "Trespasser DLC").  Heck, you go one step further and make it so if the thing completely breaks down your hero becomes less effective in combat until it's repaired.  Make the player feel the pain of their character a bit, even if its a bit frustrating. This would give you additional game mechanics where in which you and your character would have reasons to want to improve the thing, both in the way in functions and the materials its made of.

 

Also your Inquisitor has connections to Dagna and Bianca and has dealt with the Sha-Brytol (who's Lyrium infused armor would make a perfect base for a prosthetic).  It's something your character would have get used to, a new artificial appendage you would have to improve upon and yeah there could be some seriously good storytelling moments dealing with the prosthetic and the loss of such a huge part of yourself.


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#1250
Former_Fiend

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Alright, dinner's finished so I'll take my swing at this. Remember, this is very rough draft as while I have had plenty ideas about what DA4 could be with a new protagonist, they've been very disorganized and vague; I learned the bite of disappointment all too well after DAI, having too clear and concrete an idea of what that game should be, so I've intentionally been more vague this time around.

 

First off, once again we would have the full four race options, potentially with selectable backgrounds for each that could have varying levels of impact later on in the game, but all would be from either Tevinter or Seheron.

 

The game would open up with an Origins style prologue section. It would be different but not entirely unique for each race option, and would take place in Minrathous. This would be to familiarize us with the new setting, get us accustomed to the new culture and customs; all that good stuff. We learn more about the situation with the war, here rumors about slave uprises and escapes and elves gathering somewhere in the Imperium and everyone wondering about what's going on. Maybe a few lines to establish the Inquisition's status.

 

At the end of this, after a few minor quests and interactions to establish everything, we find ourselves in a Minrathous slave market, and that's where it goes down. There are explosions, smoke fills the area, and the slaves start breaking free and running en masse. It's a qunari attack in the middle of Minrathous and the slaves are taking advantage of it.

 

We get caught up in the chaos, fight our way through, are presented with some moral options regarding slaves and letting them escape, maybe get mistaken for escaping slaves – if we aren't escaping slaves oursleves – or collaborators depending on our race and have to fight some Vint guards to balance it out.

 

Eventually we see a mysterious figure who's clearly significant; they kill off some qunari who were helping elves escape, but then offer to help the elves themselves. We give chase, lose them, fight a boss and then here “Well, well... what have we here?” And of course it's Solas and you knew that as soon as you started this paragraph.

 

We have a brief chat with him that varies significantly depending on race and ends vaguely but is only the first of many chats that we will have with him over the course of the game. We will have more automatic interactions with Solas over the course of this game than we had in Inquisition; if possible we will have the same number of cut-scene conversations with him as we had in Inquisition, and all will be mandatory to the plot.

 

Anyway, Solas leaves and the guard shows up and arrests us. We're taken to a holding cell, maybe a few days pass. A guard comes in and tells us our presence has been requested by a magister, and Dorian walks in, with the Inquisitor, and dismisses the guard. They explain who they are, and you are given full control over the Inquisitor's dialogue, and in a move to increase re-playability, the dialogue options you choose for one will have an affect on the dialogue options you can choose for the other(being an assquisitor isn't going to be very endearing to the new protag, a jackass new protag isn't going to endear themselves to the Inquisitor).

 

They explain they approached you because witnesses saw you're actions, how you could handle yourself, and also saw that you interacted with Solas. For the latter, they want to know everything he said for any clues. For the former, they extend you an offer to join them and work for them, either as an agent of the Inquisition or as an agent for the Herald, specifically, if they are no longer part of the Inquisition. They explain that neither will travel with you and they can't provide you with man power, but they have connections, favors owed, resources they can put at your disposal if you become their agent.

 

You're given an option at this point, and this is really the major turning point in the game. You can choose to accept their offer, or you can choose to lie to them, pretend to accept it, and run at the first opportunity. The game is very divergent from here on out depending on which option you went with.

 

If you choose to join them, you have more resources at your disposal, but you are a tool for the Inquisition; your missions fall in line with their values, their alliances, their goals, and you are beholden to their authority.

 

If you choose to escape, then you are a fugitive(not for the whole game, that'll get taken care of by the second act), but you are your own master, beholden to no authority but your own, and not constrained by the Inquisition's values or intentions.

 

In either event, you will still interact with both Dorian and the Inquisitor fairly frequently. If you join them, they'll be mission control, if you don't, you'll encounter them slightly less, and when you do, it will often be when you are at cross purposes.

 

From here on out, either as a member of the Inquisition or as a free agent, you get involved with the Tevinter/Qunari war and how Solas is involved. As it turns out, the whole invasion was launched by the Qunari because they believe(correctly) that Solas has set up shop somewhere in Tevinter territory and, because they're Qunari, their solution is “invade, then solve everything.”

 

Meanwhile, we learn that Solas is intentionally prolonging the war and playing both sides against each other; he's supporting Tevinter because he doesn't want the Qun to gain any ground before he destroys the world, but he's supporting the Qunari because they're Invasion offers him more chance to free elven slaves and add them to his own forces.

 

While doing this, we gather up our party – you can go look at my posts in the DA4 party thread in the Story/Character forum for more information on what I think that should be. Three of them will have joined us during the slave revolt and either would be sticking with us out of convenience or as part of our deal with the Inquisition. However, what is important is that each one of them has been directly and negatively impacted by either Tevinter, the Qun, both, or Solas, and each one of them has an automatic tie into either the Vint/Qun plot or the Solas plot, and will be drawn into the other over the course of the game.

 

The other important thing to note is, that if we are not agents of the Inquisition, then we are not a group. We are not recruiting. We are not an organization. We're just a collection of skilled, motivated individuals doing what needs to be done for our own, personal reasons, and not in the name of cause.

 

The Qun/Vint conflict is the primary one right up until the end of the second act, and we're given a fair amount of lee-way on how we deal with it. We can support Tevinter directly, or we can play both sides against the middle and work to undermine the established institutions of both, so on and so forth. We've got less leeway with the Inquisition as the Inquisitor wants us to solve it their way based on their preset alliances – which can go either way – and the Inquisition's inherent disposition to support the established powers over radical change. This can prompt a falling out where we break away from the Inquisition if we were agents.

 

Once the Qun/Vint war is settled, Solas becomes the primary focus for the third act. Over the course of the game by this point we have interacted with him a couple more times, we've talked about him with the Inquisitor and Dorian, we've talked about him with the Qunari, we've talked about him with his agents. We have enough of a picture of him to establish a solid picture of him. Do we think he's a good man doing what he thinks is right? Do we think he's a mad man who needs to be stopped? Do we care? Maybe we reach the conclusion that the Inquisitor is the one too personally involved, and one way or another and they're letting their feelings cloud their judgment. Or maybe we agree with them completely on how Solas is to be dealt with.

 

This builds to a final confrontation with Solas in the raised ruins of Arlathan in the Arlathan forest, where we defeat Solas not through any McGuffin, but by outsmarting and out maneuvering him. We are then given the choice to kill or spare and redeem him, which can lead us into conflict with the Inquisitor – a conflict that we, the player, get to decide who comes out the victor, thus deciding Solas' fate.

 

Like I said, this is all very rough draft and vague. I'd need significantly more time to hammer out the details, but Rome wasn't built in a day, and the DA team is going to have years to come up with something solid.  


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