1659 réponses à ce sujet

[Gwydden]

Oh please

 

As much as I wish it, DA4 isn't going to suddenly have radically different mechanics. If we could solve all our problems with stealth, diplomacy, and strategy I would LOVE that but that's not going to happen. The next protagonist will be like all the others, wading through endless mooks and so as always, tons of combat will be required. I don't want the inquisitor as an NPC no matter what. I either want to play as the inquisitor or I don't want to play DA4. The chance that we'll play as the inquisitor is tiny, but I want to know.

Of course the protagonist from DA4 will be yet another killing machine! That's why it can't be the Inquisitor.

 

As for me, I either don't want to play as the Inquisitor or I don't want to play DA4. I guess that puts us at an impasse 

 

Unless of course the create a simple mechanic where in which the prosthetic (especially during the early game) malfunctions at times during combat, or perhaps causes your character to flinch in paint; you could augment this by making it do it more often if it takes damage (loosely basing it off of the mechanic they used for the Anchor in the "Trespasser DLC").  Heck, you go one step further and make it so if the thing completely breaks down your hero becomes less effective in combat until it's repaired.  Make the player feel the pain of their character a bit, even if its a bit frustrating. This would give you additional game mechanics where in which you and your character would have reasons to want to improve the thing, both in the way in functions and the materials its made of.

 

Also your Inquisitor has connections to Dagna and Bianca and has dealt with the Sha-Brytol (who's Lyrium infused armor would make a perfect base for a prosthetic).  It's something your character would have get used to, a new artificial appendage you would have to improve upon and yeah there could be some seriously good moments dealing with the prosthetic and the loss of such a huge part of yourself in story.

So the nasty effects of missing a limb are about as serious as those of owning a cheap car? Lovely.

[BansheeOwnage]

Wow, so many pages since I last posted!

 

Hawke doesn't speak out against blood magic. He just repeats the oft-quoted DA2 theme that people will always come up with a justification for using a supposedly dark means for some pure purpose. Thinking people will come up with a self-serving justification for extreme means doesn't mean you disapprove of the means in abstract. 

I would call saying "It's never worth the cost" and "[they all justify it to themselves] and it never matters" as speaking out pretty definitively against blood magic.

 

Not just blood magic, Hawke's reasoning for choosing mages or templars was assumed as well. Hawke sides with the templars because "too many were using blood magic " rather than "Anders forced our hand and I'm trying to mitigate the damage and save any mage who surrenders peacefully. Also I would never fight my brother who is a templar."

Good point, but it doesn't even end there. Cassandra says Hawke supported the mage rebellion if she sides with the mages in DA2. Well, some do, sure, but some just didn't want to let the templars slaughter everyone via the Right of Annulment, and weren't trying to start a rebellion.

 

Then there is my favourite: Hawke hating Wardens. Um... what? My Hawke's sister is a Warden, and the Hawke family was forced out of their home by the blight, that like all other blights, was only stopped by Wardens. It's annoying enough when 2 characters have forced drama by arbitrarily disagreeing, but it's absolutely unacceptable when they do it with a character who we're supposed to have at least enough agency over to decide if they hate a group of people or not.

 

That's why we don't want the Inquisitor to come back as a mere NPC. It will never work. It would be even worse than Hawke. If the Inquisitor shows up, we need to control them, whether they are the protagonist, deuteragonist, or mentor/Commander.

 

If it is a new pc random peasant should actually be what their called. That'd be hilarious.

You raise an interesting point, actually. I've been wondering recently (assuming new protagonist) what they'll be called. The Warden made enough sense, Hawke was a name, Inquisitor was a title... but Hawke only worked because it was human-only. If the next game has race-selection, which it probably will, they'd have to have NPCs calling you 4 different things all the time. I don't think they'd like doing that. I also think the new protagonist getting some sort of title early on would be odd. Anyway, random off-topic thoughts.

 

 

While I wouldn't be completely opposed to an new PC (though personally at this point I would prefer an Inquisitor PC) why is it completely unacceptable for the PC (a world saving hero) to play a major role in more than one historic event during their lifetime, but perfectly fine for that character's Companions to continue to influence Thedas in enormously influential ways?

Thank you! Exactly. Why must each hero only solve one major problem? There is no reason they can't do more. Some people think it gets old if one hero does everything, and that can be true. But isn't it just as true for the opposite? A world of heroes who take Competency Potions that last exactly one game, fix one major issue in said game, then leave? This is why I'm not opposed to new protagonists every now and then in DA, just not so arbitrarily; every game like clockwork for the sake of doing it the way it's always been done. Just let it flow naturally.

 

 

Also, for the first time, I have run out of likes for the day!

I'm so proud of you guys

[Gwydden]

Alright, dinner's finished so I'll take my swing at this.

I could live with this.

 

In case you missed it, here's my own scenario. I also avoid being too specific in order to keep well away from disappointment, but I wouldn't mind a mixed approach.

[Eivuwan]

snip

 

Thanks for writing all of that. I guess all I have to say is that my ideal of the next game would be something closer to Feynite's fanfics, but of course we're not going to get that because not everyone is a solasmancer. Your version still has the inquisitor as a non-controllable character so I hope that's not what Bioware uses. There's also a random joe element to your version and it's hard for me to imagine why Solas would care enough to even have conversations with you throughout the game.

[Nefla]

Alright, dinner's finished so I'll take my swing at this. Remember, this is very rough draft as while I have had plenty ideas about what DA4 could be with a new protagonist, they've been very disorganized and vague; I learned the bite of disappointment all too well after DAI, having too clear and concrete an idea of what that game should be, so I've intentionally been more vague this time around.

 

*snip*

Beyond having an Origin-esque intro, this was pretty much what I expected based on your other posts. I would not want this as DA4. The two sides arguing in this thread have very different opinions on what would make DA4 good and this isn't it for me. I've wanted to be an escaped slave in Tevinter, helping with an uprising since DA:O but all the stuff with Solas and the inquisitor and inquisition just waters it down.

[Former_Fiend]

Thanks for writing all of that. I guess all I have to say is that my ideal of the next game would be something closer to Feynite's fanfics, but of course we're not going to get that because not everyone is a solasmancer. Your version still has the inquisitor as a non-controllable character so I hope that's not what Bioware uses. There's also a random joe element to your version and it's hard for me to imagine why Solas would care enough to even have conversations with you throughout the game.

 

That is partly intentional and partly something to be worked out in the finer details. On the one hand, we need to be someone who crosses paths with Solas frequently enough and displays enough quality to gain his attention, but we need to be someone small enough that we're never his focus, or at least not until it's too late.For the first two acts of the game he needs to be more focused on the Inquisitor than us, regarding us as more of a curiosity than anything.

[Gwydden]

Beyond having an Origin-esque intro, this was pretty much what I expected based on your other posts. I would not want this as DA4. The two sides arguing in this thread have very different opinions on what would make DA4 good and this isn't it for me. I've wanted to be an escaped slave in Tevinter, helping with an uprising since DA:O but all the stuff with Solas and the inquisitor and inquisition just waters it down.

The origins are one of the best ideas they've ever had. Why they're so adamant about not using them again is beyond me. I guess making twenty hours of mutually exclusive content doesn't pay off?

[Nefla]

Of course the protagonist from DA4 will be yet another killing machine! That's why it can't be the Inquisitor.

 

As for me, I either don't want to play as the Inquisitor or I don't want to play DA4. I guess that puts us at an impasse 

I'm disillusioned enough to believe that neither of us will get what we want.

[Eivuwan]

That is partly intentional and partly something to be worked out in the finer details. On the one hand, we need to be someone who crosses paths with Solas frequently enough and displays enough quality to gain his attention, but we need to be someone small enough that we're never his focus, or at least not until it's too late.For the first two acts of the game he needs to be more focused on the Inquisitor than us, regarding us as more of a curiosity than anything.

 

I think this is the problem. Solas is compassionate, but also ruthless to anyone who wants to cross him (except for Inquisitor and maybe the other DAI companions). This balance you want is pretty hard to write imo and pretty unrealistic.

[Nefla]

It would be ironic if we infiltrated Solas' organization as a spy that would require an elf-only character though.

[BansheeOwnage]

Ancient elves - the kind that Solas talks about - don't exist. Even he's not that kind of elf anymore. The immortality, etc., that's all gone.

How do we know he's no longer immortal? In Trespasser, he seems as powerful as he probably was before the veil, as well.

 

There's absolutely no chance Bioware invests the absurd amount of resources required to create a special mode of gameplay for the protagonist alone, which essentially means 2 parallel combat systems for the PC and the party. Plus all of the cost re: animation, movement, etc. For 6 character models. 

It doesn't actually have to be an absurd effort. Just something like the anchor tree, albeit a bit more in-depth and related to crafting, like weapons. You're acting like it would have to be an entirely new combat system, but in reality it would probably be something as in-depth as a specialization, and probably not more in-depth than that. I enjoyed that the Anchor gave me new mechanics that only the Inquisitor had. It made me feel more unique as opposed to having the same abilities as all of my companions. I'd love to see that again.

 

And if you can't think of how it could present interesting and emotional moments throughout the game, you're not very imaginative. I'm not very imaginative, and I still can. They don't all have to be massively important moments with entire conversations dedicated to talking about the arm. They can be small, quick, subtle. I can even think of some that wouldn't require any dialogue at all.

 

I definitely think it would be more of an emotional thing than a physical one, having to deal with a part of your body missing, not being able to do things the way you used to, having to relearn everything. I want the drama. You may not like it, but I do.

I would absolutely love that. SO much. I'd love to see something new that makes my character more unique and interesting. I'm out of likes, so I like this.

[Eivuwan]

I want to see blood magic come back. I want the inquisitor to use blood magic to change his/her appearance whenever he/she wants to infiltrate Solas' operations. Those who don't want to use blood magic will have to use more conventional means of stopping Solas. hehehe

[Former_Fiend]

Beyond having an Origin-esque intro, this was pretty much what I expected based on your other posts. I would not want this as DA4. The two sides arguing in this thread have very different opinions on what would make DA4 good and this isn't it for me. I've wanted to be an escaped slave in Tevinter, helping with an uprising since DA:O but all the stuff with Solas and the inquisitor and inquisition just waters it down.

 

Well, never let it be said that I didn't try to meet you in the middle.

 

 

I think this is the problem. Solas is compassionate, but also ruthless to anyone who wants to cross him (except for Inquisitor and maybe the other DAI companions). This balance you want is pretty hard to write imo and pretty unrealistic.

 

Difficult but not inherently impossible.

 

For starters, not all of these meetings have to end with Solas just letting us walk away. If we're too antagonistic to him they could end with him trying to kill us and failing by a narrow margin or due to outside interference. 

 

Would still be tricky of course. Can't have him looking incompetent, and the fact that Trespasser shows him capable of spamming Petrification makes it difficult to make him survivalible. But that isn't the same as impossible.

 

Tangent; I really hated that aspect of the scene. They try and set Solas up as this grand schemer and manipulator; he's known to history as a trickster. And how does he defeat the qunari who track him down to his sanctum? Not through wit, or cunning, or guile. He beats them through sheer magical brute force.

[Eivuwan]

Well, never let it be said that I didn't try to meet you in the middle.

 

 

 

Difficult but not inherently impossible.

 

For starters, not all of these meetings have to end with Solas just letting us walk away. If we're too antagonistic to him they could end with him trying to kill us and failing by a narrow margin or due to outside interference. 

 

Would still be tricky of course. Can't have him looking incompetent, and the fact that Trespasser shows him capable of spamming Petrification makes it difficult to make him survivalible. But that isn't the same as impossible.

 

Tangent; I really hated that aspect of the scene. They try and set Solas up as this grand schemer and manipulator; he's known to history as a trickster. And how does he defeat the qunari who track him down to his sanctum? Not through wit, or cunning, or guile. He beats them through sheer magical brute force.

 

He only needs to use wit on people who are powerful enough to require that. He was powerful enough in the past to put up the veil. Why try so hard on small fry?

[Eivuwan]

Anyway, Former Fiend. Suppose that the next DA4 did in fact end up using Inquisitor as the main protagonist. Would you try out a discounted version providing that there are good reviews?

[Former_Fiend]

He only needs to use wit on people who are powerful enough to require that. He was powerful enough in the past to put up the veil. Why try so hard on small fry?

 

I don't enjoy reading about Drizzt Do'Urden carving through hordes of orcs and goblins, I don't enjoy watching Solas turn a qunari warband into statues.

 

Though, personal bias here, I happen to like orcs, goblins, and qunari a whole hell of a lot more than I like elves, so that might factor into it. 

 

In any event, I'll say that I'll put a new protagonist without a race option lower on my list than the Inquisitor being playable again. After that display, I need to see Solas die at qunari hands.

[Former_Fiend]

Anyway, Former Fiend. Suppose that the next DA4 did in fact end up using Inquisitor as the main protagonist. Would you try out a discounted version providing that there are good reviews?

 

Nope. Wouldn't borrow it from a friend.

[CardButton]

Of course the protagonist from DA4 will be yet another killing machine! That's why it can't be the Inquisitor.

 

As for me, I either don't want to play as the Inquisitor or I don't want to play DA4. I guess that puts us at an impasse 

 

So the nasty effects of missing a limb are about as serious as those of owning a cheap car? Lovely.

Yeah, in terms of combat mechanics it would work quite effectively and make both the player and the character feel the pain and frustration of having lost something of themselves, only to replace it with something only half as effective and painful to use to boot.  Story elements would be great surrounding this, especially if you did actually use Sha-Brytol tech and thus essentially had to experiment on yourself with dangerous materials to get the thing to work in a timely manner.  You're belief that the Inquisitor is grounded from combat because of a missing limb (despite their immense connections to alleviate the problem) is the exact reason people are afraid Bioware removed the arm in the first place and IS ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE WRITING IF THAT IS THE CASE!

 

The fact you are at an impasse only comes from the fact that you've done such a mediocre job at backing up your arguments. I took a look at your idea for the next game and while I admit that some of it's not half bad, so much of it is based around the game mechanics rather than the story (and many of those seem to be taken directly from AC4).  The major issue of course is that for it to work you have to take the threat Solas represents completely out of the story, ignore the fact that if the Inquisition managed to do anything correctly it was the strengthening of both major countries in Southern Thedas (so I doubt that the victor of a huge conflict like the Tevinter/Qunari war could do crap to them afterward) and just straight up get rid of the Dorian subplot about wanting to change Tevinter.  Not only that, your a Pirate ... so your reason for getting involved in international conflict would be profit I guess? 

[Nefla]

Well, never let it be said that I didn't try to meet you in the middle.

Lack of focus was one of my biggest problems with DA2.

 

You have Solas introduced almost immediately, and start acting out of character. Why would he kill Qunari who are just trying to help some slaves escape? He's not a racist or a psychopath. Why would he come personally for such a small event that doesn't require much effort? It would be smarter to have his agents blend into the group of escaped slaves and divert the elves among them without drawing attention. Why would Solas single out the PC? Nothing you described him doing up to that point was noteworthy. Also, why wouldn't Solas take an elf PC as well? How would Solas know any of those slaves were trustworthy enough to let into his organization? Again, we know he has spies. This would be a perfect use of them. Why would Solas have any reason to talk to the PC ever again? The whole wishy-washy "work with the inquisition or don't" is the worst part in my books. I know you were trying to come up with a compromise between those who don't want anything to do with the inquisition and those who want to play the inquisitor, but it just ends up weak and unfocused.

[leaguer of one]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tangent; I really hated that aspect of the scene. They try and set Solas up as this grand schemer and manipulator; he's known to history as a trickster. And how does he defeat the qunari who track him down to his sanctum? Not through wit, or cunning, or guile. He beats them through sheer magical brute force.

The dread wolf is know to brake the great wolf's jaw with an  arrow. He will use force if he has to but note he stop the qunari plans through cunning and guile via getting the inquisition to do it.. he only used force because they attacked him.

[Former_Fiend]

Lack of focus was one of my biggest problems with DA2.

 

You have Solas introduced almost immediately, and start acting out of character. Why would he kill Qunari who are just trying to help some slaves escape? He's not a racist or a psychopath. Why would he come personally for such a small event that doesn't require much effort? It would be smarter to have his agents blend into the group of escaped slaves and divert the elves among them without drawing attention. Why would Solas single out the PC? Nothing you described him doing up to that point was noteworthy. Also, why wouldn't Solas take an elf PC as well? How would Solas know any of those slaves were trustworthy enough to let into his organization? Again, we know he has spies. This would be a perfect use of them. Why would Solas have any reason to talk to the PC ever again? The whole wishy-washy "work with the inquisition or don't" is the worst part in my books. I know you were trying to come up with a compromise between those who don't want anything to do with the inquisition and those who want to play the inquisitor, but it just ends up weak and unfocused.

 

He's killing the qunari because he wants the elves to be free, not new recruits for the qun.

 

He came personally because this isn't a small event; he set the attack up, maneuvered the qunari into place to strike. He's done this several times before, but this is the first strike inside Minrathous.

 

Maybe he does accept the elf PC as well, but it's less a "come with me now" situation and more a "I tell you where and when to meet me" and the deadline passes while the PC is locked up.

 

I pictured the first two conversations after the initial one being the result of chance meeting, mostly, as we stumble onto the evidence that he's been manipulating the events of the war. They might not be direct, in the flesh meetings, but in stead meetings with magical projections.

 

And I really liked the "join the inquisition or don't" option. It gives two very distinct paths through the game. Tells the same story but through two very different perspectives. Would be a major change coming from one of our decisions, would have us not be railroaded for once in the series, and would give an automatic replay value to the game.

 

And I don't see the over all thing as unfocused. I see it as extremely rough because I worked it up in about an hour and a half. I think you're being unfair in looking at it as anything resembling a finished product and not a rough pitch that can be shaped into something more refined over the course of a pre-production and production cycle.

[NoForgiveness]

 

snipy snip snip. 

 

 

Edit: I can explain my dislikes if you really really want me to... I don't really feel like it though.

[Former_Fiend]

 

At this point, I'm using your displeasure as a sign that I'm doing the right thing.

[Nefla]

 

He's killing the qunari because he wants the elves to be free, not new recruits for the qun.

 

He came personally because this isn't a small event; he set the attack up, maneuvered the qunari into place to strike. He's done this several times before, but this is the first strike inside Minrathous.

 

Maybe he does accept the elf PC as well, but it's less a "come with me now" situation and more a "I tell you where and when to meet me" and the deadline passes while the PC is locked up.

 

I pictured the first two conversations after the initial one being the result of chance meeting, mostly, as we stumble onto the evidence that he's been manipulating the events of the war. They might not be direct, in the flesh meetings, but in stead meetings with magical projections.

 

And I really liked the "join the inquisition or don't" option. It gives two very distinct paths through the game. Tells the same story but through two very different perspectives. Would be a major change coming from one of our decisions, would have us not be railroaded for once in the series, and would give an automatic replay value to the game.

 

And I don't see the over all thing as unfocused. I see it as extremely rough because I worked it up in about an hour and a half. I think you're being unfair in looking at it as anything resembling a finished product and not a rough pitch that can be shaped into something more refined over the course of a pre-production and production cycle.

The Qunari don't usually free people from slavery and force them to join the Qun but again, why draw attention to himself and what he's doing rather than using his covert agents? it's foolish. So is trusting the PC. As far as "join the inquisition or don't" if it's functionally the same, then what's the point? You're still doing the same missions, you still have the same goals. It's obvious that it's for the sole purpose of letting people who didn't like the inquisition to go "I do it because I want to, not because you tell me to :P" we're not talking mutually exclusive plotlines here like in TW2. I would also rather have the inquisitor spontaneously burst into flame before the game even starts than have him become the next OOC NPC like Hawke or Revan or shoehorned in as an advisor. Look, you don't like my ideas and I don't like yours. I just wish we knew which direction they were going to take for DA4 so one of us can jump ship.

[Former_Fiend]

You wouldn't necessarily have the same goals if you didn't join as you would if you did. If you didn't, you may well be working at counter goals. 

 

The Inquisition would be a pro-establishment or counter-establishment run. The non-inquisition run would be anti establishment. In one you're working to support the powers that be in the name of stability, even if you personally disagree with them. In the other, you're working to tear down the powers that be and force radical change.

 

They'd be two very different paths.