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New protagonists every game dont work with current game foundation


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#1276
Former_Fiend

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Here's part of my problem; I don't see what your version of the game is. Because so far all I've gotten from you is that the Tevinter/Qunari plot would be wrapped up inside the first act and then I guess we'd spend two acts dicking around and trying to stop Solas while occasionally having a conversation where we yelled at him about old times/tried to convince him he was on the wrong path and that there was another way.

 

So, essentially DAI, just with the option to try and talk the bad guy down throughout the game.


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#1277
Nefla

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Here's part of my problem; I don't see what your version of the game is. Because so far all I've gotten from you is that the Tevinter/Qunari plot would be wrapped up inside the first act and then I guess we'd spend two acts dicking around and trying to stop Solas while occasionally having a conversation where we yelled at him about old times/tried to convince him he was on the wrong path and that there was another way.

 

So, essentially DAI, just with the option to try and talk the bad guy down throughout the game.

I don't want multiple plots that should be given their own games and thoroughly fleshed out to be hastily smushed into one the way they were with DA2 so I'm not sure where you got the idea that I'd want a Qunari/Tevinter conflict shoved in and then wrapped up in act one. I don't want the inquisitor back as an NPC. I don't want a random nobody who...helped fight some guards? Taking over the fight against Solas. I want to play as the inquisitor, I want to go undercover and subvert Solas' plans, maybe even infiltrate his organization. When they finally clash, I want it to mean something more than "you're bad so I'm stopping you." That stuff isn't what you want, I get it. Neither of us are going to change the other's mind.


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#1278
Eivuwan

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I don't want multiple plots that should be given their own games and thoroughly fleshed out to be hastily smushed into one the way they were with DA2 so I'm not sure where you got the idea that I'd want a Qunari/Tevinter conflict shoved in and then wrapped up in act one. I don't want the inquisitor back as an NPC. I don't want a random nobody who...helped fight some guards? Taking over the fight against Solas. I want to play as the inquisitor, I want to go undercover and subvert Solas' plans, maybe even infiltrate his organization. When they finally clash, I want it to mean something more than "you're bad so I'm stopping you." That stuff isn't what you want, I get it. Neither of us are going to change the other's mind.

 

I want something like this. I also want quests that allow me to figure out what exactly are Solas' plans and alternative methods of saving the ancient elves that don't require mass destruction. Or maybe find evidence to show him that if he tears down the veil, there will be unforeseen consequences such as the blight spreading or the titans wakening.


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#1279
AresKeith

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It boils down to people who think the Solas Inquisitor story is interesting and those who don't. I don't see how each side can convince the other lol.

 

I think Solas's story is interesting, but I don't think the Inquisitor is necessary for it



#1280
Eivuwan

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I think Solas's story is interesting, but I don't think the Inquisitor is necessary for it

 

I said the Solas Inquisitor story, not the Solas story.


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#1281
NoForgiveness

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I think Solas's story is interesting, but I don't think the Inquisitor is necessary for it


Yes and Lando should've been the one to kill Vader/Emperor. Just crash the the ship through the window.
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#1282
leaguer of one

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Yes and Lando should've been the one to kill Vader/Emperor. Just crash the the ship through the window.

Ironic, Luke never killed Vader nor the Emperor.



#1283
NoForgiveness

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Ironic, Luke never killed Vader nor the Emperor.


Ugh... you get the point, he was the one that confronted them.

#1284
AresKeith

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Ugh... you get the point, he was the one that confronted them.

 

Never said the Inquisitor can't be the one to confront them 


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#1285
NoForgiveness

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Ugh...

#1286
In Exile

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Ugh... you get the point, he was the one that confronted them.

 

But Leia didn't, and she was the one with a personal connection to both following A New Hope. Luke was just along for the ride in that movie. Which just goes to the point that you can establish a deeper personal connection in a sequel. 



#1287
NoForgiveness

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But Leia didn't, and she was the one with a personal connection to both following A New Hope. Luke was just along for the ride in that movie. Which just goes to the point that you can establish a deeper personal connection in a sequel.


Leia? What? She has as much connection to Vader as anyone else in the galaxy..

#1288
In Exile

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Leia? What? She has as much connection to Vader as anyone else in the galaxy..

 

In a New Hope, Vader personally tortured her. He and Tarkin obliterated her world. In hunting the Rebellion, which she was an instrumental figure, they were her personal nemeses. 



#1289
NoForgiveness

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In a New Hope, Vader personally tortured her. He and Tarkin obliterated her world. In hunting the Rebellion, which she was an instrumental figure, they were her personal nemeses.


Meh. She was the princess that needed saving. Wasn't much else to her character.

#1290
In Exile

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Meh. She was the princess that needed saving. Wasn't much else to her character.

 

Except for being the one with the most personal connection to the villains. Which is my point about personal connections. 



#1291
NoForgiveness

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Except for being the one with the most personal connection to the villains. Which is my point about personal connections.


Whole thing was pretty meh worthy though. It's not like she swore vengeance or any such thing. She just sat there waiting to be rescued then insulted said rescuers when they came.

#1292
AresKeith

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Whole thing was pretty meh worthy though. It's not like she swore vengeance or any such thing. She just sat there waiting to be rescued then insulted said rescuers when they came.

 

It still doesn't go against his point



#1293
NoForgiveness

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Whatthefuckever. Never thought of her connection as anything that ever mattered. Inquisitor/Solas can be stronger and it's one that legitimately shows.

#1294
leaguer of one

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Ugh... you get the point, he was the one that confronted them.

they don't need to be the main character to do that. obi-wan did confront vader.



#1295
Nefla

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But Leia didn't, and she was the one with a personal connection to both following A New Hope. Luke was just along for the ride in that movie. Which just goes to the point that you can establish a deeper personal connection in a sequel. 

Sure, just bring back Sera and make her the protagonist so we can find out that Solas is her father. :P



#1296
Astraea Nevermore

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Okay, let's try this. I think most of us would rather not have another game about saving the world. That's what Solas' plot is, yet you all still want to go through with it, arguing that Solas' relationship with the Inquisitor will make it better. Let's say I agree with that (which I don't, but I'll play along for this exercise). What else does this plot have going for it that makes it preferable to a fresh start as per usual? Because even if everyone was invested in it, you can't make a single relationship the basis for an entire game. There has to be something else.

 

So what is it that's got you sold? Those elusive arguments that help outweigh the problems of bringing back a protagonist that has never shined at anything other than being the Inquisitor; of taking him to the other end of Thedas where nothing that happens will matter in the slightest to him; of carrying over the baggage from the previous game, including the old companions and love interests; or worse yet, of bringing in a new cast to a game that's oddly obsessed with stuff from the previous one; of throwing new players into a story that's built upon a relationship they have never experienced. C'mon, throw 'em at me. What else does the Solas plot have on the pros column other than the fact that the Inquisitor knows him?

 

Here's what I think would make the game interesting with the Inquisitor back as a character:

  • Possibility to get a completely new party that has little to no returning characters: if the main point of DA4 is going to find Solas with the help of someone he doesn't know, an entirely new party sounds like the way to go. With the Inquisitor as the guide, as he/she is the one who knows Solas and his plans. Dorian would also make a return, since he's in Tevinter. But that's it. Only the two of them.(Also, if Solas is going to be the antagonist, the problem with a "new cast being oddly obsessed with stuff from the previous one" would be the same for a new pc too, if not worse)
  • Return of the race selection: since it's the Inquisitor again, we get all four races back, too. The devs won't even need to come up with an excuse as to "why on earth would a Qunari be taken in consideration in Tevinter" (I've seen people worrying about it in the forums). It wouldn't be just "a Qunari", it'd be the friggin' Inquisitor himself and the excuse would be Solas.
  • Not sure about other people's gameplay, but in mine, I seemed to understand that the Inquisitor is not really popular in Tevinter. Which means more difficulty being taken seriously: Dorian could be the one who tries to make things easier for our character, but all in all, we're going to need quite a lot of time before we can gain the trust of those who are in power in Tevinter. We used to be an influential character in Ferelden and Orlais, but we're either feared or mistrusted in Tevinter. This makes a good excuse for our character to *learn* about Tevinter and how to be "accepted" without having to ask idiotic questions. I don't want another "Who is Mythal?" type of dialogue for my supposedly Tevinter character. Turning the Inquisitor into the main character would mean that he/she is going to need to learn the customs of the place together with the player. 
  • Possibility to play as a "fallen hero" instead of the usual "random peasant who turns into a hero/chosen one". We *used to be* the heroes in DA:I. It doesn't mean that we still have to be. That would make for a nice change. 
  • Drama! I don't understand the lack of trust towards Bioware's capability to give us a believable disabled character. They already gave the Inquisitor an extremely destructive and dangerous weapon which caused a lot of troubles in Trespasser. As some others pointed out, having a prosthetic arm wouldn't necessarily mean that our character is suddenly super fine and can fight exactly the same as before. There could be issues. Combat may have some added difficulties *because* the new arm just doesn't work as well and it may cause us to lose health as the fight goes on or whatever. New crafting systems may be implemented in order for us to be able to fix the arm. Hell, we could even get to choose which kind of arm we want: a lyrium based one, a mechanical one or something made with the use of blood magic? Each of these possibilities could have a different effect on the gameplay itself. Giving us a prosthetic arm would mean less difficulty for the team with animations (and also a return of two handed skills), but it doesn't mean that everything has to be super nice and fine for us. 
  • As already mentioned many times, personal conflict between Solas and the Inquisitor. I don't want Solas to be just another generic big bad. I want my Inquisitor to confront him. I made a very specific promise at the very end of my gameplay and I want to be able to keep it. Sending someone else to do the same just doesn't feel right, especially if I promised to redeem him. (But, then again, even those who promised to kill him may want to actually do it in person. Unless they care so little about Solas that they don't even want to see his egg head again).
  • As for new players joining the fandom with DA4... would a new character really make things *that* different? They would still have to face an enemy from a game they didn't play. New players playing DA:I did the same too, with Corypheus. And they also had to interact with Hawke, and Varric, and Morrigan, and Flemeth, and Alistair, and Stroud and- well, you know. That didn't stop DA:I from becoming Game of the Year. The entire Thedas setting would be full of characters, stories and references to things they never saw, even more so in DA4. Also, speaking of something different: I haven't played Metal Gear Solid 5 and am not that much familiar with the story or the gameplay, but I seem to understand that the protagonist is a "returning character" and has a missing eye and a missing arm, too. And so far I've only seen five star or near to five star reviews of the game, which probably means that, if done correctly, something like this *can* work. (As I said, though, I never played the game and am not familiar with it, just saw some pics and read some stuff about it on Wikipedia, but that's the impression I got). Besides, how many games do we have in which our character is going to face some big evil from his past? This is not something new in videogame history at all. And honestly, if the DA team is going to worry more about what new players may think instead of their fans, I don't think it's going to work very well. Sure, new fans are something any company wants and needs to have. But sacrificing the possibility of an interesting plot in order to appease people that may or may not buy the game, while screwing the ones who would buy the game for sure? Doesn't sound like a good marketing choice. (Not that having an entirely new character would necessarily mean "story is not interesting anymore, old players are screwed, let's give up on DA" especially seeing how the fanbase is currently splitting in half on the matter, but as I already said, I think that the Inquisitor vs Solas has more potential to make for an interesting/different plot. Speaking of new characters, I should point out that I do like Former_Fiend's ideas too, however. Having the Inquisitor as a possible ally who offers us help and having the chance to accept/refuse it would be something I'd be willing to have in DA4. Surely better than turning Quizzy into a random NPC who takes decisions we can't control and/or having him/her dying off screen or, even worse, in a cutscene at the very beginning of the game, lol)

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#1297
NoForgiveness

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they don't need to be the main character to do that. obi-wan did confront vader.


He killed Vader. Then later found out he was alive. Inquisitor hasn't even made it that far.

#1298
Bhryaen

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Now that I've actually seen the ending- i.e., Trespasser's- I can see how people could contrive a DA4 plot involving the Inq as protagonist. I mean, with the imagination you can approach it any way you like, but there is a way to contrive a story arc upon the Inq's resolve about Solas despite that the Inquisition has been neutered (become a wing of the Chantry/ dismantled)... and despite that the Inq is now missing an arm... and would be starting at "should-be-27th-lvl..." After all, it's only the Inq (and close cohorts) that even know about Solas. (Even the qunari had no clue he wasn't just an Inquisition agent.)

 

But I can also imagine a story where a new protagonist meets the Inq, is told about Solas and asked/recruited/compelled to infiltrate his organization, and then throughout the course of DA4  the new protagonist gets to know Solas in a different way than the Inq ever did, gets close enough to him to argue with him and/or come to agree with him. (Not that the plot has to be about infiltrating Solas' organization, but still...) That would make the end choices regarding "redemption/stopping" no less gripping- in fact, potentially a lot more fleshed out since the main plot would involve the protagonist's Solas-confrontation centrally and involve a narrative process of learning and growing into the part required. And then it's the new protagonist- with all the new info and how the player experienced Solas when he's not deceiving anyone and his story is understood- that has to decide how to handle it- persuade him or assassinate him... or just foil his plans somehow, whatever those plans actually are and whatever the foiling would entail (since we don't actually know). A cool plot twist might be that Solas saves the new protagonist's life a couple times along the way, making you roleplay an interesting relationship with him that deals heavily with the theme of betrayal. Or a twist that at the end, after having risen through the ranks of Solas' organization, he tells you he was aware your protagonist was an Inq agent and gives the final choice about whatever his plans are to you rather than needing to be thwarted: "It is your world. You have seen what is at stake. I have helped you to understand what the consequences are, what will be lost however you decide. It is not for me to decide..." *vanishes* In any case, in that scenario it could be completely satisfying to be a new protagonist who nevertheless determines the fate of Solas' narrative. Sounds a lot less simplistic that way, a lot more character development moments to experience than being an Inq who's not much better than a Spirit of Stop/Redeem Solas with no more depth of character than single-minded Justice.

 

I suppose I primarily reject a returning Inq as protagonist just because I dislike the "instant hero" identity- requiring very little depth of personal involvement for the player. After having endured it throughout DAI- and with a character that lacked any substantive background as it was- that same hamfisted identity would simply be extended further into DA4 which just belabors an already tired storyline. As I said, it could be done, but it just seems a lot less interesting (among other things) than just doing what DA has been good at: introducing new protagonists with an engaging story of their own who find themselves thrust into events larger than themselves. New players who never played DAI, of course, would benefit from getting to know Solas differently than the Inq did rather than having the DAI experiences grafted into one's DA4 identity and presumed. And returning players with a new protagonist would be able to get the whole DA-immersion experience without having everything be about "Me 'n' Fen cuz we's sooo important."



#1299
leaguer of one

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He killed Vader. Then later found out he was alive. Inquisitor hasn't even made it that far.

That just a mid story conflict. Wouldn't it make it more so for more future conflict and a vendetta. Still obi-wan later faced Vader again and did not end the fight there ether.



#1300
leaguer of one

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Snip.

No. new story. new character. New character is Luke. Quis is obi-wan.