1659 réponses à ce sujet

[Gwydden]

People's visceral hate of the Qun is... interesting. I would argue that as bad as the Qun may be, your average Thedosian kingdom isn't much better. You could argue they're much worse, in fact. I would agree freedom is the most important value in a society, but not everyone agrees. I can see how some people would be willing to trade it for things like safety, stability, purpose...

 

And even leaving that aside, how much freedom does the average Thedosian have? Do you know that throughout most of human history, 90% of the population was made out of farmers? So there you go, most people in Thedas are bound to be farmers operating under a feudal system where they're subject to the nobles. The only ones who are getting any substantial amount of freedom here are the nobles, the very wealthy, and the religious authorities, who are bound to have the Qun painted in a very negative light.

 

The Qun may be a fascist theocracy, but why does everyone assume the other governments in Thedas are better? Ferelden*, Orlais, and Nevarra are aristocracies with hereditary absolute monarchies. So is Antiva de jure, but de facto it is a capitalist plutocracy. Tevinter is a corrupt oligarchy not unlike the Roman Republic. In terms of socioeconomic systems, feudalism and serfdom are the norm. Notable exceptions include Tevinter with slavery and Antiva with incipient capitalism. So I'd like to hear more arguments regarding what makes the Qun so terrible compared to pretty much everything else.

 

And I am just as baffled by those questioning how can someone ally with the Qun. Well, maybe because military alliances are always understood to be temporary, lasting only until the common threat is removed? Maybe because even if you disapprove of another nation's government you can still ally with them against a common enemy? Remember how the British and the Americans joined forces with the Soviets against the Axis? Well, in a similar way, not allying with the Qunari against what are clearly much greater threats like Corypheus and Solas is downright silly.

 

*A little correction — Ferelden is a constitutional monarchy, but it is still a feudal aristocracy. Only the nobles have voting power when electing the king.

[Eivuwan]

People's visceral hate of the Qun is... interesting. I would argue that as bad as the Qun may be, your average Thedosian kingdom isn't much better. You could argue they're much worse, in fact. I would agree freedom is the most important value in a society, but not everyone agrees. I can see how some people would be willing to trade it for things like safety, stability, purpose...

 

And even leaving that aside, how much freedom does the average Thedosian have? Do you know that throughout most of human history, 90% of the population was made out of farmers? So there you go, most people in Thedas are bound to be farmers operating under a feudal system where they're subject to the nobles. The only ones who are getting any substantial amount of freedom here are the nobles, the very wealthy, and the religious authorities, who are bound to have the Qun painted in a very negative light.

 

The Qun may be a fascist theocracy, but why does everyone assume the other governments in Thedas are better? Ferelden*, Orlais, and Nevarra are aristocracies with hereditary absolute monarchies. So is Antiva de jure, but de facto it is a capitalist plutocracy. Tevinter is a corrupt oligarchy not unlike the Roman Republic. In terms of socioeconomic systems, feudalism and serfdom are the norm. Notable exceptions include Tevinter with slavery and Antiva with incipient capitalism. So I'd like to hear more arguments regarding what makes the Qun so terrible compared to pretty much everything else.

 

And I am just as baffled by those questioning how can someone ally with the Qun. Well, maybe because military alliances are always understood to be temporary, lasting only until the common threat is removed? Maybe because even if you disapprove of another nation's government you can still ally with them against a common enemy? Remember how the British and the Americans joined forces with the Soviets against the Axis? Well, in a similar way, not allying with the Qunari against what are clearly much greater threats like Corypheus and Solas is downright silly.

 

*A little correction — Ferelden is a constitutional monarchy, but it is still a feudal aristocracy. Only the nobles have voting power when electing the king.

 

Of course it all depends on your values. Some may believe it's better to live a very harsh life as long as one's mind is free. Others value basic necessities and comfort above all else. To me, if your mind isn't free you might as well be a workhorse. That is the difference between spiritual and physical freedom. To me, if you take away my mind through all that reeducation bullshit, I might as well be dead.

[The Baconer]

The Qun may be a fascist theocracy, but why does everyone assume the other governments in Thedas are better? Ferelden*, Orlais, and Nevarra are aristocracies with hereditary absolute monarchies. So is Antiva de jure, but de facto it is a capitalist plutocracy. Tevinter is a corrupt oligarchy not unlike the Roman Republic. In terms of socioeconomic systems, feudalism and serfdom are the norm. Notable exceptions include Tevinter with slavery and Antiva with incipient capitalism. So I'd like to hear more arguments regarding what makes the Qun so terrible compared to pretty much everything else.

 

It's the least-tolerable stain in the hellhole that is Thedas. 

 

Then there's the Viddath-Bas and the Saarebas. I have to hate the Qunari for that just by default. 

[Ryzaki]

Might have to do with mages having their mouths shown shut. (agreeing with you XD)

 

As horrible as the Chantry is they still manage to be above that.

 

As for Tevinter. Tevinter and the Qunari can both go die in a fire as far as I'm concerned. But at least in Tevinter there's the chance to be on the top to benefit from all the garbage they pull. You don't even get that much with the Qunari. And of course the other countries in the south give you a higher chance of not being on the complete rug of the bottom.

 

Also the Qunari have a really bad habit of talking down to people. it's obnoxious.

[Dabrikishaw]

My main problem with the Qun is the fact that the Qunari plan to conquer the world and force everyone into their religion. It's one thing to choose on your own to join the Qun, it's another when, eventually, the Qunari will force you to pick between your (new) life and death.

[Nixou]

The only ones who are getting any substantial amount of freedom here are the nobles, the very wealthy*, and the religious authorities**

 

 

*Who tend to be nobility themselves

** Ditto

 

 

A little correction — Ferelden is a constitutional monarchy, but it is still a feudal aristocracy. Only the nobles have voting power when electing the king.

 

 

Well, the Banns also are technically elected officials. but since the only allowed to vote are the landowners...

[Gwydden]

Well, the Banns also are technically elected officials. but since the only allowed to vote are the landowners...

 

You know what's really ironic?

 

The most progressive political system in Thedas, and by progressive I mean the one closest to the current real world standard? Tevinter. Tevinter's a republic, and as such it's the only democratic government in Thedas. It's the only place where commoners are allowed to elect representatives e.g. the Publicanium. Granted, it's still highly corrupt and elitist, but that's the thing with early democracies.

 

And the most progressive socioeconomic system would be Antiva. I'm even willing to bet it's also the place with the greatest potential for social mobility. One of the reasons I have certain hopes for the next game and its protagonist, hopes that do not involve Solas or a exclusively Tevinter setting, is that I've wanted to see Antiva the most since DAO. If I was a Thedosian it would also be, with all likelihood, my preferred place of residence, assassins and all. I may understand the appeal of the Qun in the context of Thedas, but I still value freedom a little too much to convert 

[BansheeOwnage]

I bet the Qun wouldn't even take a mage convert. Saarebas are only tolerated because they've been beaten down and brainwashed their entire lives. They're firmly under control and are a known element. I think a foreign mage would just be killed immediately like Arvaarad tried to do with Hawke/Bethany/Anders/Merrill.

I wonder if the Qun would take any Inquisitor on account of their Mark, anyway. They're pretty paranoid, so I wouldn't be surprised if they still thought part of it was present and they opted to kill you just to be safe.

[Nefla]

I've started coming up with ideas for a story that I may or may not make into a comic to get this DA4/Inquisitor/Solas stuff out of my system It wouldn't work as a game though since it heavily involves Elf-quisitor's (alive) Dalish clan.

[Former_Fiend]

I wonder if the Qun would take any Inquisitor on account of their Mark, anyway. They're pretty paranoid, so I wouldn't be surprised if they still thought part of it was present and they opted to kill you just to be safe.

 

Being as how the Mark was removed, I don't see it as being an issue.

 

Even if it was, the Qunari are "very good" at a "weird willful ignorance thing" when it comes to magic. Gaider explained that the reason Mage-Warden and Mage-Hawke can be declared Basalit-An is because, due to their qualities and capabilities earning the Qunari's respect, as far as the Qunari are concerned, they aren't mages. Call it hypocritical if you want, but the same thing could be applied to an Inquisitor.

[leaguer of one]

Being as how the Mark was removed, I don't see it as being an issue.

 

Even if it was, the Qunari are "very good" at a "weird willful ignorance thing" when it comes to magic. Gaider explained that the reason Mage-Warden and Mage-Hawke can be declared Basalit-An is because, due to their qualities and capabilities earning the Qunari's respect, as far as the Qunari are concerned, they aren't mages. Call it hypocritical if you want, but the same thing could be applied to an Inquisitor.

Being that the soldiers of the qun nearly killed any non-mage Hawke for talking with any mages in da2. I would say the qun is not letting the quis in mark or no mark.

[Former_Fiend]

Being that the soldiers of the qun nearly killed any non-mage Hawke for talking with any mages in da2. I would say the qun is not letting the quis in mark or no mark.

 

One soldier of the Qun.

 

Meanwhile the current Arishok could well have been best friends with a mage. The old Arishok could well have counted a mage as the only person they respected in the south.

 

Seriously, let's all keep harping on the actions of one Arvaarad and forget every interaction with any Qunari that contradicts that, shall we?

[leaguer of one]

One soldier of the Qun.

 

Meanwhile the current Arishok could well have been best friends with a mage. The old Arishok could well have counted a mage as the only person they respected in the south.

 

Seriously, let's all keep harping on the actions of one Arvaarad and forget every interaction with any Qunari that contradicts that, shall we?

That was not one soldier. That was a group of them lead by soldier whoes job was controlling Saarabas. And the Arishok is more flexible think of the lot and that is really saying something. In Kirkwall. Also, remember that the Vishasla stated she was shock the quis was still free and about after sealing the breach.

[Former_Fiend]

I suppose it would depend on who the Inquisitor was talking to when they decided to convert in the hypothetical situation. If an Arishok or Ariqun were to accept them as viddithari, I doubt any Arvaarad would do much about it other than grumble.

[BansheeOwnage]

Being as how the Mark was removed, I don't see it as being an issue.

 

Even if it was, the Qunari are "very good" at a "weird willful ignorance thing" when it comes to magic. Gaider explained that the reason Mage-Warden and Mage-Hawke can be declared Basalit-An is because, due to their qualities and capabilities earning the Qunari's respect, as far as the Qunari are concerned, they aren't mages. Call it hypocritical if you want, but the same thing could be applied to an Inquisitor.

You must have missed that part of my post that mentioned that their mark is gone, but the Qunari are paranoid and may still fear that part of it remains. Which was actually the whole post.

 

Being that the soldiers of the qun nearly killed any non-mage Hawke for talking with any mages in da2. I would say the qun is not letting the quis in mark or no mark.

Agreed, they're too scared of the Inquisitor to let them join.

[Former_Fiend]

Alright, accepting that this argument isn't going to amount to anything other than "yes they would accept the Inquisitor!" "No they wouldn't!" "Yes they would!" with neither of us accepting the other's reasons for our respective interpretations, I'll go back to arguing in favor of the Inquisitor not being the protagonist at all.

 

Though I'm not sure what the point is, given that this thread is bound and determined to argue against anything that would allow me the slightest enjoyment of the game, even in optional form.

[Nixou]

Meanwhile the current Arishok could well have been best friends with a mage. The old Arishok could well have counted a mage as the only person they respected in the south.

 

 

And the current Arishok may also have this weird crush on a sentient magic construct

[Nefla]

I can definitely see why some people would join the Qun. People with no hope who live such horrible lives that literally anything would seem better. It you're a slave getting beaten and starved and sleep deprived and raped every day then the Qun starts to look pretty good. However if you lead a normal life say you're a farmer or something, why would you join the Qun? Even if you're not a mage, if you show any kind of individuality or question your assigned role you're brainwashed. You're not allowed to marry or have children, and if you have a child anyway, they rip it away from you at birth. You don't even get to choose who to have sex with. The Qun tells you "you're going to have sex with this person and birth a child which we will immediately kidnap and you will never see again."

[Former_Fiend]

We're still on this? Alrighty.

 

I'll admit I have mixed feelings on the way the Qun handles love and sex. On the one hand, I certainly enjoy sex with someone I love more so than the alternative. On the other hand, so far that's always ended pretty badly for me. So the idea of love and sex being these completely separate things? I can kind of see the appeal of a society where one doesn't complicate the other. Where you can love someone and not worry about sex getting in the way of that, and where you can have sex without it being anything more than it is; an act between two people for mutual enjoyment.

 

Then of course there is the breeding thing. Breeding people like dogs or horses isn't a pleasant proposition. On the flip side, not everyone wants kids, not everyone is fit to raise kids. I've seen too many news stories about parents drowning kids, burning them, leaving them in hot cars, renting them out for drug money, etc for one life time. So there are some people who may be perfectly happy giving up their children, and there are some children who would be better off being raised by people who are trained and educated to raise kids, rather than by whoever happened to pop them out. 

[Abyss108]

We're still on this? Alrighty.

 

I'll admit I have mixed feelings on the way the Qun handles love and sex. On the one hand, I certainly enjoy sex with someone I love more so than the alternative. On the other hand, so far that's always ended pretty badly for me. So the idea of love and sex being these completely separate things? I can kind of see the appeal of a society where one doesn't complicate the other. Where you can love someone and not worry about sex getting in the way of that, and where you can have sex without it being anything more than it is; an act between two people for mutual enjoyment.

 

Then of course there is the breeding thing. Breeding people like dogs or horses isn't a pleasant proposition. On the flip side, not everyone wants kids, not everyone is fit to raise kids. I've seen too many news stories about parents drowning kids, burning them, leaving them in hot cars, renting them out for drug money, etc for one life time. So there are some people who may be perfectly happy giving up their children, and there are some children who would be better off being raised by people who are trained and educated to raise kids, rather than by whoever happened to pop them out. 

 

And these are all options outside of the Qun if that's your choice. But the Qun demands this should be forced on everybody.

[Former_Fiend]

And these are all options outside of the Qun if that's your choice. But the Qun demands this should be forced on everybody.

 

We're not talking about the Qun winning and converting everyone in Thedas. We're talking about one individual's personal choice to join the Qun of their own free will.

[Abyss108]

We're not talking about the Qun winning and converting everyone in Thedas. We're talking about one individual's personal choice to join the Qun of their own free will.

 

Which is supporting that goal. The Qunari is all-in or all-out. If you don't fall in line and follow ALL their beliefs they send you for brainwashing. And their belief is that the rest of Thedas needs to be forcefully converted.

[Former_Fiend]

Which is supporting that goal. The Qunari is all-in or all-out. If you don't fall in line and follow ALL their beliefs they send you for brainwashing. And their belief is that the rest of Thedas needs to be forcefully converted.

 

Except that isn't true. Bull explains the reason that no one we've met so far is willing to explain the Qun to outsiders is that no one except for the priests understands the whole thing; they know enough to get by. So it cannot be a case of "you follow all the rules or you get reeducated" when no one except the priests know what all the rules are. 

 

And yes, one of their believes is that eventually, everyone needs to be converted, by choice or by force. That's also one of the Chantry's beliefs. Another of the Qun's beliefs is complete racial equality and proper hygiene. 

 

And even accepting the idea that joining the Qun of your own will is an endorsement of converting everyone and not just a choice to live your life by it's tenets because you think that's best for you, so what? The Inquisitor isn't allowed to be an a**hole?

[Abyss108]

Except that isn't true. Bull explains the reason that no one we've met so far is willing to explain the Qun to outsiders is that no one except for the priests understands the whole thing; they know enough to get by. So it cannot be a case of "you follow all the rules or you get reeducated" when no one except the priests know what all the rules are. 

 

And yes, one of their believes is that eventually, everyone needs to be converted, by choice or by force. That's also one of the Chantry's beliefs. Another of the Qun's beliefs is complete racial equality and proper hygiene. 

 

And even accepting the idea that joining the Qun of your own will is an endorsement of converting everyone and not just a choice to live your life by it's tenets because you think that's best for you, so what? The Inquisitor isn't allowed to be an a**hole?

 

You know the rules that are relevant and apply to you. The belief that others need to be converted applies to everyone that interacts with people outside the Qun aka your Inquisitor.

 

SOME Andrastians might beleive people need to be converted by force. Others don't. Because in every other faith you are allowed your own mind. The Qun strips you off that and demands total obedience. You are never allowed to think.

 

Your Inquisitor can be an ass of course. I was making a point about how you were painting the Qunari in a nice light by saying the options for loveless relationships etc are OK. That's only OK if its a choice. It's not OK to demand it of every person on the planet. Those "nice" features of the Qun exist outside of it, and are allowed as a choice. In the Qun they are demanded of everyone.

[Former_Fiend]

You know the rules that are relevant and apply to you. The belief that others need to be converted applies to everyone that interacts with people outside the Qun aka your Inquisitor.

 

SOME Andrastians might beleive people need to be converted by force. Others don't. Because in every other faith you are allowed your own mind. The Qun strips you off that and demands total obedience. You are never allowed to think.

 

Your Inquisitor can be an ass of course. I was making a point about how you were painting the Qunari in a nice light by saying the options for loveless relationships etc are OK. That's only OK if its a choice. It's not OK to demand it of every person on the planet. Those "nice" features of the Qun exist outside of it, and are allowed as a choice. In the Qun they are demanded of everyone.

 

One of the core tenets of the Chant of Light is that the Maker will only return once the Chant is sung from all four corners of the world. The official policy on this is that everyone needs to be converted and that those who do not follow the Chant are heathens and heretics. And unlike the Qun, the Chantry has enforced this via genocide, purging Rivani civilians who chose, of their own free will, to remain faithful to the Qun rather than be converted back to Andraste. 

 

The modern Chantry is significantly more lax about the whole thing. Eventually the Qun will get a little more lax, too; indeed they've been pretty lax on the whole thing for the last few hundred years. It's entirely possible their new offensive has nothing to do with converting the masses and might be entirely about stopping Solas from destroying the world. Fact is, we don't know.

 

All of this is entirely irrelevant, however. All I asked for was an option for the Inquisitor to join the Qun. You can hate the Qun all you want, that's fine. You can not think of a single reason for your Inquisitor to join the Qun, that's fine. Your opinion on the Qun is not a legitimate reason to deny the option for others who either feel differently or would like to see that as the progression of their character.