331 réponses à ce sujet

[RoboticWater]

I never said the ability or inclination to speak was inherently interesting so I'm not sure what your point is.

That was me sloppily agreeing with you. A trait is just a trait, that's true.

 

That's amateur hour writing.

No it's not. Understanding your audience is one of the most important parts of writing. It's an important part of any consumer media.

 

Humans are biologically inclined to be more interested in things that aren't normal. Why not exploit that? It's part of the reason many find fiction more interesting than non-fiction. Clearly, using muteness as an excuse to pass off a poorly written character is bad, but using an interesting trait to turn eyes is not inherently bad.

[Killroy]

That was me sloppily agreeing with you. A trait is just a trait, that's true.
 
No it's not. Understanding your audience is one of the most important parts of writing. It's an important part of any consumer media.
 
Humans are biologically inclined to be more interested in things that aren't normal. Why not exploit that? It's part of the reason many find fiction more interesting than non-fiction. Clearly, using muteness as an excuse to pass off a poorly written character is bad, but using an interesting trait to turn eyes is not inherently bad.

Black people were used in older literature as "not normal" for the sake of pointing out that black people were different. Just saying "look at this guy. he's different than you. isn't that interesting?" is terribly amateurish writing. Building characters around a trait that you want to exploit is also amateurish writing. It's not organic and it lacks artistic integrity(no pun intended). If I said "I want to include a brown person in this story. What's some **** that I can tack on to this brown person..." would you be inclined to enjoy that character or the writing of that character?

[TheTechnoTurian]

I'd swap Quiet for Jacob any day, she wouldn't have knocked up another girl while while my femshep was in the brig. She's cuter than he is too

 

...For the record, though, from a pure gameplay standpoint, I think Quiet was really well implemented and useful, whereas I thought the Mass Effect squadmates were fairly useless and often annoying. 

 

Narratively, there's a can of worms. Leaving aside all the dumb pandering bullshit, I liked Quiet as a character. In general, though, Bioware does character development and characterization better and more consistently than MG. 

[Majestic Jazz]

Black people were used in older literature as "not normal" for the sake of pointing out that black people were different. Just saying "look at this guy. he's different than you. isn't that interesting?" is terribly amateurish writing. Building characters around a trait that you want to exploit is also amateurish writing. It's not organic and it lacks artistic integrity(no pun intended). If I said "I want to include a brown person in this story. What's some **** that I can tack on to this brown person..." would you be inclined to enjoy that character or the writing of that character?

What?

[RoboticWater]

Black people were used in older literature as "not normal" for the sake of pointing out that black people were different. Just saying "look at this guy. he's different than you. isn't that interesting?" is terribly amateurish writing. Building characters around a trait that you want to exploit is also amateurish writing. It's not organic and it lacks artistic integrity(no pun intended). If I said "I want to include a brown person in this story. What's some **** that I can tack on to this brown person..." would you be inclined to enjoy that character or the writing of that character?

But you wouldn't just say "look at this guy...isn't that interesting." You would say that in addition to their being a good character themselves. As I said: unique traits should not be excuses, but they can make a thing more interesting. The goal of a writer is to communicate an idea, if they can communicate that idea through a character that would be more interesting to their target audience than a normal character, then why shouldn't they?

 

Communication is a good topic. Portraying communication through a mute character would probably be more interesting to a speaking crowd than portraying it through a speaking character. 

[Killroy]

But you wouldn't just say "look at this guy...isn't that interesting." You would say that in addition to their being a good character themselves. As I said: unique traits should not be excuses, but they can make a thing more interesting. The goal of a writer is to communicate an idea, if they can communicate that idea through a character that would be more interesting to their target audience than a normal character, then why shouldn't they?
 
Communication is a good topic. Portraying communication through a mute character would probably be more interesting to a speaking crowd than portraying it through a speaking character.

But what is the payoff? Just because someone can't talk doesn't mean they make scenes or stories more interesting. Being attracted to a mute character because they're different is like being attracted to a shiny rock because shiny. It's appealing to the lowest common denominator. Being mute isn't a good enough reason for a character to take up screen time and a character slot in a game. Being different isn't a character.

[RoboticWater]

But what is the payoff? Just because someone can't talk doesn't mean they make scenes or stories more interesting. Being attracted to a mute character because they're different is like being attracted to a shiny rock because shiny. It's appealing to the lowest common denominator. Being mute isn't a good enough reason for a character to take up screen time and a character slot in a game. Being different isn't a character.

The payoff is the same as the one we get from a sci-fi game. The writers dress up regular human issues with aliens and space ships and fancy guns because all those things make the normally compelling problems more appealing.

It's the same reason people like Liara for her tentacle hair or Tali for her mask or Garrus for the way he talks. Those are obviously not the only things they like about those characters, each has actual depth behind them, but they're made all the more interesting because of these features.

I don't know how many times I have to say it: unique traits are not an excuse. Being mute by itself does not justify screen time, but being both a screen worthy character and mute it's probably going to be more interesting than one who is just screen worthy.

[Solas]

These romance/squad mate threads are getting weirder by the week. I'm out.

idk nobodys asked about mabari sweat yet so..

[CronoDragoon]

Being different isn't a character.

 

Sure it is.

 

https://en.wikipedia...il_(literature)

 

Such isn't directly connected to any specific points about Quiet's role in the story, except that

 

Spoiler

she's the only character in MGSV to give up on revenge

[SlottsMachine]

Since everyone has been having so much fun ragging on Quiet's character design, I thought I'd post this. Its pretty funny.

 

https://youtu.be/JgdrOMdUcqI?t=455

[Yuki Mashiro Manga]

I wouldn't say that Quiet's character is shallow because of her attire. I actually really like Quiet. Whether or not that's a result of a personal bias because I really happen to like Stefanie Joosten is another story, but I digress...

As Chris has said, she is a complicated character, and she adds quite a bit to the story. Despite not speaking, she's probably the easiest character to read in terms of emotion. You can clearly see respect and admiration for Boss, in addition to possible romantic feelings later on. Although I personally like the fact that it's never so blatantly stated. It's a relationship that comes about from mutual respect, which is significantly more meaningful and engaging than her just being the girl you can "pick up" in the game. 

 

That being said, Quiet was designed entirely for the sake of fanservice. This is just a plain and simple fact, and impossible to deny. She is eye candy. And with Joosten doing the facial capture, it's damn good eye candy. 

 

However, I'm not so convinced this is a bad thing, in of itself. Is it wrong to treat women as trophies? To put them on display for men to enjoy? Well, sure. Women are people too. They have feelings and everything else. 

Quiet, though, isn't just treated as an object. There are a lot of scenes that are obvious pandering, in addition to her idle animations within the ACC. What I think kinda makes this okay, though, is that Quiet as a character, is not weak, or being forced to arouse you. You wouldn't be able to hold her down and make her act sexy for you. You don't get to tell her to act a certain way towards you, or any other character. The camera angles during cutscenes may show off her assets, but Snake doesn't. And when Quiet does, it's because of Snake. 

 

Basically, it works as a sort of pseudo-romance option in the game. The animations in the ACC, the shower scene, the rain scene, her ending... it's all unlocked by increasing your bond with Quiet. Check the guide for the idle animations too. You unlock them by becoming closer allies with her. 

 

So it's Quiet doing something for Snake, whom she respects, admires, adores, and possibly even loves. And as Chris mentioned, Snake also does have a softer side during quite a few scenes involving her.

 

Is she over-sexualised? Obviously. Is her reason for being naked flimsy and inconsistent? Duh. But when she shows it off, it's no different from a real woman trying to excite the person she feels attracted to. And there's nothing wrong with that. Saying that Quiet is a shallow character because of her attire is the same as real life "**** shaming". 

 

The way she's dressed isn't her character. It's her design. Two completely different aspects of the character. You can hate her design, but there's no reason to hate her character for it. Pretty sure people are taught from a very young age to not judge a book by it's cover. Quiet isn't slutty. She isn't weak. She isn't submissive. Nothing that her design (or people mad about it) would accuse her of being. 

 

In truth, it's possible I'm giving Kojima way too much credit, and he might just be a quirky (if not a little creepy) Japanese game designer, but that might have been his intention with the character to begin with. He's well-known for his social commentary, after all. 

I'd like to believe when Kojima said we would be "ashamed for judging her" that this is what he meant. Trying to look past the fact that she's obviously over-sexualised and see that a legitimately interesting character is buried underneath. 

 

Again though, I might be giving him too much credit. He is kinda pervy. 

[The Hierophant]

I'd prefer Ocelot.

[RZIBARA]

 

D-Dog is a better squad mate than any one in ME Trilogy.

 

Please Bioware, give us a dog as a squadmate, im not even kidding

[Queen Skadi]

I wouldn't say that Quiet's character is shallow because of her attire. I actually really like Quiet. Whether or not that's a result of a personal bias because I really happen to like Stefanie Joosten is another story, but I digress...

As Chris has said, she is a complicated character, and she adds quite a bit to the story. Despite not speaking, she's probably the easiest character to read in terms of emotion. You can clearly see respect and admiration for Boss, in addition to possible romantic feelings later on. Although I personally like the fact that it's never so blatantly stated. It's a relationship that comes about from mutual respect, which is significantly more meaningful and engaging than her just being the girl you can "pick up" in the game. 

 

That being said, Quiet was designed entirely for the sake of fanservice. This is just a plain and simple fact, and impossible to deny. She is eye candy. And with Joosten doing the facial capture, it's damn good eye candy. 

 

However, I'm not so convinced this is a bad thing, in of itself. Is it wrong to treat women as trophies? To put them on display for men to enjoy? Well, sure. Women are people too. They have feelings and everything else. 

Quiet, though, isn't just treated as an object. There are a lot of scenes that are obvious pandering, in addition to her idle animations within the ACC. What I think kinda makes this okay, though, is that Quiet as a character, is not weak, or being forced to arouse you. You wouldn't be able to hold her down and make her act sexy for you. You don't get to tell her to act a certain way towards you, or any other character. The camera angles during cutscenes may show off her assets, but Snake doesn't. And when Quiet does, it's because of Snake. 

 

Basically, it works as a sort of pseudo-romance option in the game. The animations in the ACC, the shower scene, the rain scene, her ending... it's all unlocked by increasing your bond with Quiet. Check the guide for the idle animations too. You unlock them by becoming closer allies with her. 

 

So it's Quiet doing something for Snake, whom she respects, admires, adores, and possibly even loves. And as Chris mentioned, Snake also does have a softer side during quite a few scenes involving her.

 

Is she over-sexualised? Obviously. Is her reason for being naked flimsy and inconsistent? Duh. But when she shows it off, it's no different from a real woman trying to excite the person she feels attracted to. And there's nothing wrong with that. Saying that Quiet is a shallow character because of her attire is the same as real life "**** shaming". 

 

The way she's dressed isn't her character. It's her design. Two completely different aspects of the character. You can hate her design, but there's no reason to hate her character for it. Pretty sure people are taught from a very young age to not judge a book by it's cover. Quiet isn't slutty. She isn't weak. She isn't submissive. Nothing that her design (or people mad about it) would accuse her of being. 

 

In truth, it's possible I'm giving Kojima way too much credit, and he might just be a quirky (if not a little creepy) Japanese game designer, but that might have been his intention with the character to begin with. He's well-known for his social commentary, after all. 

I'd like to believe when Kojima said we would be "ashamed for judging her" that this is what he meant. Trying to look past the fact that she's obviously over-sexualised and see that a legitimately interesting character is buried underneath. 

 

Again though, I might be giving him too much credit. He is kinda pervy. 

 

You are trying waaay to hard to justify it, all you have to say is "I like looking at half naked women with their ****** out", of course feminists may try to fault you for it but I wont, why shouldn't you be allowed to enjoy looking at half naked women with their ****** out?

 

As for Quiet being shallow it has nothing to do with her choice of attire but rather the fact she has little personality beyond not talking and behaving like a slutty slightly autistic child. As for not being able to "force her to arouse you" you don't really have to as she will try to do it constantly of her own accord from the constant camera angles zooming in on her boobs and arse to the way she constantly poses on the chopper.

 

While it is true that you can get a sense of Quiet sort of falling in love with the boss is isn't exactly subtle nor is it really done for any deep narrative reasons, most likely it was done to inflate Kojima's and the player's ego by providing a sort of wish fulfilment that their character could get it on with Quiet.

 

 

Look it is perfectly fine if you like Quiet and like looking at her soft naked body but lets not kid ourselves here and try to delude ourselves into thinking she is something she isnt, Quiet is pure fanservice and there is nothing wrong with that, I don't find it particularly compelling but if that is the type of character Kojima wants to include in his games then he has every right to.

[Deebo305]

I can see why SJWs on here dislike Quiet. To be honest I didn't like her at first and I planned on killing her but after the boss battle with her I did the opposite. Quiet is a strong character and eventually you'll ignore her quirk and focus on her character and her relation to the plot. She grew on me and her ending was sad and I had phantom pain for her not being on the battlefield and having my back when I get spotted. She's a well written character in my opinion, on the same level as the some of the best Bioware characters.

And you can equip her with a Sniper Wolf outfit.

Well this is first but I agree with Dutch's Ghost

Despite her outfit aside and pointless lack of clothing(Code Talker has same abilities but is fully clothed) she is indeed a well written and deep character. Her entire character goes from simply wanting revenge to having deep respect for Snake and Diamond Dogs as a whole. Even willing to put her life on the line in more than one occassion to do so

People can rail against Kojima about her lack of clothing or the rain scene but her character goes far beyond that. Anyone who has played MGSV knows this, shes far deeper than say Daddy issues Miranda or Semi-Angry/Semi-Cheeeleader Liara. Quiet says absolutely nothing until the very end of her arc and when does speak her words carry real, gut wrenching weight

So yes ME could use someone like Quiet imo

[Rhaenyss]

The problem I have with Quiet is not really her clothing or her personality, she looks fine & stranger things have happened, and from what I hear, MGS is a pretty wacky game, so whatever. It's the camera angles coupled with her unnatural movements -- it doesn't look sexy, it looks comical, it's almost infantile. Like porn for 15yr olds who have never seen a naked woman and think this is the way women move all the time. The only situation in which I can picture these comical movements is with an amateur porn actress getting her first gig and the director telling her to "look seductive".

 

I can understand someone finding it probably sexy, but I don't like my content to scream at me "heeeey look at THAT, it's so sexy yes das right", and then putting me in a position to ogle (same as with Miranda's butt). It's only producing a counter effect on me because it's trashy & desperate & it screams "there's an author behind this scene, and he's a sleaze".

[goishen]

Yah.  Really, I'd like for Big Boss to meet Shepard.  Just one time.  Then we can put all these MGS threads to rest, please.

 

Good god what a crap game.

[Seboist]

The most shameful thing about Quiet's character is how she never got the D that she so wanted from Venom.

[N172]

Please Bioware, give us a dog as a squadmate, im not even kidding

Dogs as squadmates are old, they already did it in DA:O. They should try to be inventive, a cat with a jetpack whould be a good start!

[Erstus]

Totaly Agree!

Like, more female characters that look like Miranda but they wear space-bikinis! Also, they agree with our every choice and only speak when spoken too.

Alternate apperance can be in the nude because that seems logical to me. Oh, and they are all LI

[Yuki Mashiro Manga]

You are trying waaay to hard to justify it, all you have to say is "I like looking at half naked women with their ****** out", of course feminists may try to fault you for it but I wont, why shouldn't you be allowed to enjoy looking at half naked women with their ****** out?

 

As for Quiet being shallow it has nothing to do with her choice of attire but rather the fact she has little personality beyond not talking and behaving like a slutty slightly autistic child. As for not being able to "force her to arouse you" you don't really have to as she will try to do it constantly of her own accord from the constant camera angles zooming in on her boobs and arse to the way she constantly poses on the chopper.

 

While it is true that you can get a sense of Quiet sort of falling in love with the boss is isn't exactly subtle nor is it really done for any deep narrative reasons, most likely it was done to inflate Kojima's and the player's ego by providing a sort of wish fulfilment that their character could get it on with Quiet.

 

 

Look it is perfectly fine if you like Quiet and like looking at her soft naked body but lets not kid ourselves here and try to delude ourselves into thinking she is something she isnt, Quiet is pure fanservice and there is nothing wrong with that, I don't find it particularly compelling but if that is the type of character Kojima wants to include in his games then he has every right to.

 

I do like looking at Quiet. Stefanie Joosten is absolutely gorgeous, and the artists clearly didn't go out of their way to make her half naked without expecting people to pay attention to it. I never once stated in that massive wall-of-text I typed up that this wasn't the case. 

 

I still completely disagree that her character is shallow, and that she exists purely for the sake of fanservice. 

 

I like her character. More than her design, honestly. The game might show her off, but her personality is the very definition of subtlety. Conveying emotions and feelings without words is a difficult task, but she pulls it off well. I appreciate that, as I appreciate a lot of things MGSV handles with the same kind of subtlety. MGS is wacky, and infamous for insanely long cutscenes with unnecessary dialogue and exposition that takes hours to go over. Don't get me wrong, I love the old games, but V legitimately handles most of it's issues and themes without shoving them down your throat and repeating dialogue over and over in order to get the point across. 

 

Not only do I like Quiet as a character, but I think she's a big part of MGS becoming more "intimate". Having to see and experience how a character is feeling, instead of them blatantly telling you... That's what V does better than every other MGS. 

[DanishViking]

hey, hey why do we need quiet when we have this

 

 

[Queen Skadi]

I like her character. More than her design, honestly. The game might show her off, but her personality is the very definition of subtlety. Conveying emotions and feelings without words is a difficult task, but she pulls it off well. I appreciate that, as I appreciate a lot of things MGSV handles with the same kind of subtlety. MGS is wacky, and infamous for insanely long cutscenes with unnecessary dialogue and exposition that takes hours to go over. Don't get me wrong, I love the old games, but V legitimately handles most of it's issues and themes without shoving them down your throat and repeating dialogue over and over in order to get the point across. 

 

Yeah apart from anger and "I want to jump Big Bosses bones" (both of which have the subtlety of a fireworks display) I am not really seeing all this emotion she conveys, most of the time the emotion she seems to convey is a sort of stoic sullenness, sure there are the moments she conveys feelings of surprise and even at times concern (which is usually tied to the whole "I want to jump Big Bosses bones" conveyance) but other than that there really isn't much to her character.

[Yuki Mashiro Manga]

Yeah apart from anger and "I want to jump Big Bosses bones" (both of which have the subtlety of a fireworks display) I am not really seeing all this emotion she conveys, most of the time the emotion she seems to convey is a sort of stoic sullenness, sure there are the moments she conveys feelings of surprise and even at times concern (which is usually tied to the whole "I want to jump Big Bosses bones" conveyance) but other than that there really isn't much to her character.

 

Except for the whole, "I want revenge on Snake for what he did to me, but I also respect him as a fellow soldier, and admire the legend he's created" part. Kind of a big deal, considering it's the entire reason she wants to "jump Big Boss' bones". 

 

You can make any character seem shallow by giving a two sentence summary of their most basic traits. 

 

What makes traits interesting is motivation. The reasoning behind actions, and words (or a lack thereof).

[Queen Skadi]

Except for the whole, "I want revenge on Snake for what he did to me, but I also respect him as a fellow soldier, and admire the legend he's created" part. Kind of a big deal, considering it's the entire reason she wants to "jump Big Boss' bones". 

 

You can make any character seem shallow by giving a two sentence summary of their most basic traits. 

 

What makes traits interesting is motivation. The reasoning behind actions, and words (or a lack thereof).

 

Not only is that not incredibly deep but it is kind of cringeworthy as well, "first I wanted to kill him but I fell in love with him instead", give me a break.

 

Also what Snake did to her? Far as I remember she tried to kill him in his hospital bed, there is no mention of the character before that point, she has no backstory beyond being a soldier for the XOF and appearing in the hospital as an assassin, what motivation does she have to kill Snake other than the fact Skullface told her to? If anything Skullface is the source of her misery.