331 réponses à ce sujet

[Yuki Mashiro Manga]

Not only is that not incredibly deep but it is kind of cringeworthy as well, "first I wanted to kill him but I fell in love with him instead", give me a break.

 

Also what Snake did to her? Far as I remember she tried to kill him in his hospital bed, there is no mention of the character before that point, she has no backstory beyond being a soldier for the XOF and appearing in the hospital as an assassin, what motivation does she have to kill Snake other than the fact Skullface told her to? If anything Skullface is the source of her misery.

 

 

Because it's Big Boss. A legend among soldiers who convinces men to join his cause simply by telling them who he is. 

 

He's literally the messiah of the battlefield. Any soldier would be curious about him. Again, you're taking basic traits and giving minimalist summaries. The entire reason she doesn't kill Snake right away is because she's testing him. She's doing battle with him out of respect. The reason she doesn't unleash the English parasites on Diamond Dogs is because she wants to learn more about him. He beat her in combat and tried to bring her back alive instead of outright killing her.

 

Quiet's reason for staying directly conflicts with her reason for seeking him out in the first place. That's conflict. That's interesting. 

 

It's more than just simply saying "she wants to shag Boss". She wants to kill him because he's the reason she was burned alive and tossed from a building. The reason she lost her voice. 

I really dislike people boiling it down to "she falls in love with Boss so she doesn't wanna kill him anymore". Quiet and Snake's relationship is, in no way, standard. It's completely based around the player creating the story through the gameplay. You choose to play with her, and as a result you can see that they have mutual respect for one another. They're comrades. Which is all the more impressive because they can't speak to one another. A theme that is present throughout the majority of the game. 

 

Language is everything, and Snake and Quiet are "together" despite missing that very basic and very essential part of communication. 

 

She shows a lot more than just anger. She also shows concern, and trust. Hurt. 

 

There are all the makings of a legitimately compelling character present in Quiet. Which is why many people like her. People that were completely turned off by her character design, by the way. 

[Queen Skadi]

Again, you're taking basic traits and giving minimalist summaries.

 

Perhaps but then you are assigning them far more value than they deserve, I know it is more complex than just "fist she wanted to kill Big Boss now she wants to shag him" but it isn't that much more complex

 

I don't get why so many people assign so much value to Kojima's work when there are plenty of other games and movies that do the same thing only 10x better. Sure Kojima does manage to hit the occasional high note when it comes to story telling but most of it is pretty sappy, cringeworthy nonsense and Quiet certainly isn't one of his best characters.

[Yuki Mashiro Manga]

Perhaps but then you are assigning them far more value than they deserve, I know it is more complex than just "fist she wanted to kill Big Boss now she wants to shag him" but it isn't that much more complex

 

I don't get why so many people assign so much value to Kojima's work when there are plenty of other games and movies that do the same thing only 10x better. Sure Kojima does manage to hit the occasional high note when it comes to story telling but most of it is pretty sappy, cringeworthy nonsense and Quiet certainly isn't one of his best characters.

 

The old MGS games have a clunky way of storytelling, honestly, but people still love them. Some even hate V because it isn't like them. I think that's because the series was genre-defining in the beginning. One of the first stealth games, and one of the first games to introduce itself in a cinematic style.

It's also littered with social commentary. What's going on at the surface is never the full picture with Metal Gear, and that's something that people have come to know Kojima for. 

 

It's also genuinely unique, and fun to play. There isn't really an experience like it. 

 

The reason people dig so deep when it comes to MGS as a series is because that's what MGS is most well-known for. Making people think. Sparking critical thinking, and intelligent discussion. Even if every theme in the games isn't handled eloquently, the lessons Kojima tries to teach, and the way he tries to make people aware of themselves and the world around them is very constructive. 

 

He might be a little quirky, and sometimes even juvenile, but he's not stupid. People respect him because of that. Also because of the amount of work he puts into his creation. There's a reason, after all, that his name appears so often in every game in the series.

 

I definitely think he deserves respect as a game designer, and as a person in general. 

 

You don't have to like Quiet, honestly, and you also don't have to agree with anything I've said. There's a lot of value in the series though, and I feel like you're missing out. I kinda wish I was better at convincing you of that. 

[goishen]

Heh, I love the way that all Russian soldiers come over to our side, no matter what.  Yah, extreme realism there.  Find 'em, extract 'em, and we'll force them to work for us.  Yah, nice sense of patriotism and sense of national identity.  I'm sure the Russians are proud.

 

Of course, over there, they prolly released it with the enemies speaking English.

 

Oh, and also...  Language isn't everything.  lol   There are different ways of communicating emotion besides spoken language.   That's just one more of Kojima's crap stories that he put into the game.  ASL.   American Sign Language.  Waving cards at each other for each emotion.  I mean, ugh.   Don't make me go off on this game here man.   'Cause I will.

[Mercyva]

To be honest, i want a squadmate like Snake. and make him romanceable please. 

[Deebo305]

Heh, I love the way that all Russian soldiers come over to our side, no matter what. Yah, extreme realism there. Find 'em, extract 'em, and we'll force them to work for us. Yah, nice sense of patriotism and sense of national identity. I'm sure the Russians are proud.

Of course, over there, they prolly released it with the enemies speaking English.

Oh, and also... Language isn't everything. lol There are different ways of communicating emotion besides spoken language. That's just one more of Kojima's crap stories that he put into the game. ASL. American Sign Language. Waving cards at each other for each emotion. I mean, ugh. Don't make me go off on this game here man. 'Cause I will.

You realize your literally tasked in game to find an interpreter in each zone for the spoken languages right?

Also, Sign Language only works if people know it which no one on MotherBase does, also considering 2 out the 3 Commanding Officers are missing limbs so that would be impossible. Lastly, Cards displaying emotion? No one in this game is incapable of displaying emotions *facepalm*

You want to rant or hate on the game by all means but atleast get your facts straight

[Queen Skadi]

You realize your literally tasked in game to find an interpreter in each zone for the spoken languages right?

Also, Sign Language only works if people know it which no one on MotherBase does, also considering 2 out the 3 Commanding Officers are missing limbs so that would be impossible. Lastly, Cards displaying emotion? No one in this game is incapable of displaying emotions *facepalm*

You want to rant or hate on the game by all means but atleast get your facts straight

 

Not sure needing an interpreter makes Snakes methods of recruiting any more realistic.

 

I think Goishen is talking about how there are other ways to communicate other than verbally and it isn't a big deal in response to how Yuki is trying to make out how Quiet can communicate her feelings without speaking is so amazing, and he is totally right, Quiet communicating her feelings without talking really isn't that amazing and I don't think Stephanie Joosten (or the scene coordinator) did particularly that great a job with it, sure she conveys emotion adequately but it isnt something that is particularly amazing nor is it anything that has never been done before, the Sims do this all the time (though often in an exaggerated and cartoonish fashion), even the robots from portal 2 are able to convey a sense of character and personality without speaking and they don't even have human faces.

 

[Fredward]

If you rely on photosynthesis shouldn't you be green?

[Queen Skadi]

If you rely on photosynthesis shouldn't you be green?

 

Nanomachines son

[Fredward]

Nanomachines son

 

Convenient.

[Yuki Mashiro Manga]

Communicating without speaking isn't that big of a deal... huh.

 

So Christine (was that her name?) from Fallout New Vegas was also a shitty character? Y'know because there's nothing meaningful or interesting about a character that has to communicate without words?

 

Pretty sure most people in the world would be devastated if they lost their ability to speak. You can take it for granted, but it's extremely important to human interaction. That's got nothing to do with Metal Gear, it's just a fact.

Language is a huge theme in the game. Whether you're talking about Skull Face's ethnic cleansers, or the simple act of recruiting interpreters so you can understand soldiers out in the field. Taking that away from a character has meaning because of the context of the story. 

 

And if you're going to use the robots from Portal as an example of giving something personality, be aware that those are created entirely by the artist in charge of all the character models. MGSV uses facial capture.

 

Joosten is an actress. Every expression on Quiet's face is credited to her. She did a fine job.

[AtreiyaN7]

I think you might be reading a little too much into things Chris, only scene I can remember that showed "Big Boss's softer side" was the rain scene which was pretty uh.. not sure what the right word is here.... Japanese?

 

I hate Quiet's outfit (it's pure fanservice despite the in-game justification involving spoilerish stuff that I won't mention), along with not being enthused about the camera angles and the assorted jiggling boob shots that I've been subjected to in scenes with her. I'm female, and honestly, I don't really want to have to look at Quiet in that skimpy outfit, but she is a godly sniper and is incredibly useful, so I take her along anyway.

 

When I found out about the rain scene and watched it elsewhere, I found it ridiculous and cringe-worthy (but absolutely hilarious when you replace Quiet with Ocelot). Despite the design issues that I very much dislike, I do like certain aspects of Quiet's story and believe that your statement about the rain scene being the only place where you see Snake's softer side with her to be inaccurate.

 

I don't know how you could have missed the cutscene I got last night, unless you didn't go back to Mother Base periodically after Mission 30 (EDIT: in case I'm off slightly on the mission number, apologies in advance). I finished the mission - the details of which I will not get into because of spoilers - and visited Mother Base twice after that. Each time I went back, I got a cutscene. The second cutscene I got is germane to the issues of whether or not Quiet does have some depth and whether or not Snake shows some softness in scenes with her.

 

Here's what happened in the scene that I'm talking about: one of the former child soldiers had lost a necklace that was very special to him, and it was basically at the bottom of a pit filled with chlorine gas on one of the platforms. No one could get to it, but Quiet was clearly paying attention to what was going on and chose to dive straight into the aforementioned pit filled with deadly gas to try to get the kid's precious keepsake back for him.

 

Snake pretty much freaked out and tried to go after her to save her - twice I think (but is stopped because chlorine gas is bad for normal humans). However, Quiet survives and barely makes it out of the pit with the necklace. She was obviously hurt and was suffering from chemical burns afterwards, and she was treated quite gently. The whole sequence struck me as being pretty touching, and there wasn't anything gratuitous about it.

 

So despite the more unfortunate fanservice aspects of her design and the camera shots/angles, etc., this scene showed me that there is at least some depth to her and that Snake does appear to care about her on some level. Though I find a number of things about Quiet to be grating, I can mostly put up with it at this point in exchange for the Team Sniper thing we have going on (I love my sniper rifles).

 

P.S. Although I have zero desire to see Quiet's jiggling boobs, if Snake/Big Boss ever feels the urge to strip down and show off his pecs to me, that's another matter entirely.

[Catastrophy]

The most shameful thing about Quiet's character is how she never got the D that she so wanted from Venom.

D-size cups?

[Queen Skadi]

Communicating without speaking isn't that big of a deal... huh.

 

So Christine (was that her name?) from Fallout New Vegas was also a shitty character? Y'know because there's nothing meaningful or interesting about a character that has to communicate without words?

 

Pretty sure most people in the world would be devastated if they lost their ability to speak. You can take it for granted, but it's extremely important to human interaction. That's got nothing to do with Metal Gear, it's just a fact.

Language is a huge theme in the game. Whether you're talking about Skull Face's ethnic cleansers, or the simple act of recruiting interpreters so you can understand soldiers out in the field. Taking that away from a character has meaning because of the context of the story.

 

Can't really speak for Christine as I never encountered her in my brief playthrough of New Vegas but if that is their only character trait that they can't speak then yeah I don't find them incredibly interesting, I never said that characters who can't speak can't be interesting but they need more to their personality than just being mute and to be quite honest with you there really isn't much more to Quiet's character than the nudie mute angle.

 

While I am sure losing the ability speak would be devastating just as losing a hand or your ability to walk (to be honest I would much rather lose my voice than lose the use of my hands and legs) would be devestating as well but these things alone don't make a character interesting or particularly deep, there has to be something more to the character.

 

 

And if you're going to use the robots from Portal as an example of giving something personality, be aware that those are created entirely by the artist in charge of all the character models. MGSV uses facial capture.

 

Joosten is an actress. Every expression on Quiet's face is credited to her. She did a fine job.

 

Not the point, I am not criticizing Joosten's performance I am criticizing the character she plays and I am responding to the assertion that Quiet is an interesting character because she can make her emotions visible without speaking despire this being something every human being on the face of the earth is capable of doing, while facial capture may be a relatively new thing in the video games industry actors have been conveying emotion through not only their voice but through their faces and their gestures in movies for years, it is a big part of acting and something any actor worth their salt should be able to do, hell the very first movies ever made were SILENT so actors had to rely purely on using their facial expressions and gestures to convey emotion.

 

 

You are giving Kojima and Joosten far more credit than they deserve

[ForgottenWarrior]

Becuase Quiet is on one line with Dog and Horse?

[Deebo305]

I don't know how you could have missed the cutscene I got last night, unless you didn't go back to Mother Base periodically after Mission 30 (EDIT: in case I'm off slightly on the mission number, apologies in advance). I finished the mission - the details of which I will not get into because of spoilers - and visited Mother Base twice after that. Each time I went back, I got a cutscene. The second cutscene I got is germane to the issues of whether or not Quiet does have some depth and whether or not Snake shows some softness in scenes with her.

Here's what happened in the scene that I'm talking about: one of the former child soldiers had lost a necklace that was very special to him, and it was basically at the bottom of a pit filled with chlorine gas on one of the platforms. No one could get to it, but Quiet was clearly paying attention to what was going on and chose to dive straight into the aforementioned pit filled with deadly gas to try to get the kid's precious keepsake back for him.

Snake pretty much freaked out and tried to go after her to save her - twice I think (but is stopped because chlorine gas is bad for normal humans). However, Quiet survives and barely makes it out of the pit with the necklace. She was obviously hurt and was suffering from chemical burns afterwards, and she was treated quite gently. The whole sequence struck me as being pretty touching, and there wasn't anything gratuitous about it.

So despite the more unfortunate fanservice aspects of her design and the camera shots/angles, etc., this scene showed me that there is at least some depth to her and that Snake does appear to care about her on some level. Though I find a number of things about Quiet to be grating, I can mostly put up with it at this point in exchange for the Team Sniper thing we have going on (I love my sniper rifles).

You mean this scene

Spoiler

Its one ALOT of people miss but like you said, its another great scene with her only topped by the entire Quiet Exit mission

[Queen Skadi]

Its one ALOT of people miss but like you said, its another great scene with her only topped by the entire Quiet Exit mission

 

Not really, they just don't mention it because it isn't really worth mentioning, while it isn't quite as cringeworthy as the rain scene it is still pretty stupid.

[Sartoz]

I hate Quiet's outfit (it's pure fanservice despite the in-game justification involving spoilerish stuff that I won't mention), along with not being enthused about the camera angles and the assorted jiggling boob shots that I've been subjected to in scenes with her. I'm female, and honestly, I don't really want to have to look at Quiet in that skimpy outfit, but she is a godly sniper and is incredibly useful, so I take her along anyway.

 

 Snip

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Hm...

I always though one cannot hate an object... intensely dislike, perhaps?

 

Be as it may,  Quiet is Quiet and I take her as she is. As far as some "fan service camera shots" is concerned... I'm sure you are aware that some TV series show more than that....hell. there are more boobies in fashion shows that in the game, so I don't see why some folks  make a big hoobaloo over Quiet's outfit and camera angle that are timid compared to other main media services.

 

Quiet, as you say, is extremely useful and a main character at that. This ought to bring satisfaction to the female players when a game includes one of their sex as a kick ass soldier(sniper). Yet, I read more bashing than praise for Kojima's creation.

 

I don't get it.
 

[Vapaa]

As far as some "fan service camera shots" is concerned... I'm sure you are aware that some TV series show more than that....hell.

"X is fine because Y is worse"

Isn't that logical fallacy documented somewhere?
 

This ought to bring satisfaction to the female players when a game includes one of their sex as a kick ass soldier(sniper). Yet, I read more bashing than praise for Kojima's creation.
 
I don't get it.

Maybe if Kojima treated her like a soldier, there would be more satisfaction.
Hell there are female prisoners you can free and play as, and they're very much badass looking and not out of place, why couldn't Quiet be like that ? Well because Kojima wanted to sexualize her not use in denying that. And I'm not a woman but if I had to guess, I'd say women wouldn't be delighted to have an obvious sexy eye candy that is flimsy hidden behind the cardboard justification that "but she's badass so it's fine".

[Queen Skadi]

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Hm...

I always though one cannot hate an object... intensely dislike, perhaps?

 

Be as it may,  Quiet is Quiet and I take her as she is. As far as some "fan service camera shots" is concerned... I'm sure you are aware that some TV series show more than that....hell. there are more boobies in fashion shows that in the game, so I don't see why some folks  make a big hoobaloo over Quiet's outfit and camera angle that are timid compared to other main media services.

 

Quiet, as you say, is extremely useful and a main character at that. This ought to bring satisfaction to the female players when a game includes one of their sex as a kick ass soldier(sniper). Yet, I read more bashing than praise for Kojima's creation.

 

I don't get it.
 

 

In all honesty it isn't a big deal, I think a lot people who constantly cry about sexism and objectification need to grow up, I personally don't like Quiet's costume because I feel it is lazily designed and I have every right to voice that opinion but at the same time I know this is Kojima's creation and he has every right to dress his characters however he wants. But that being said don't insult our intelligence by trying to claim a higher motivation than basic titillation as the reason for Quiet's outfit, I think the reason for Quiet's outfit is pretty obvious and it isn't to set up a clever plot device and I am pretty sure everyone can see it.

 

I am not a big fan of dancing around the issue so lets just call a spade a spade, Kojima had Quiet's outfit designed the way it was because it makes his **** hard.

[Shechinah]

"X is fine because Y is worse"

Isn't that logical fallacy documented somewhere?

 

I believe it is known as the fallacy of relative privation;

 

(https://en.wikipedia...ative_privation) & (http://rationalwiki....i/Not_as_bad_as)

[Vapaa]

I believe it is known as the fallacy of relative privation;
 
(https://en.wikipedia...ative_privation) & (http://rationalwiki....i/Not_as_bad_as)

That's the one, thank you.

[ZoliCs]

I just want another Mako. She is the best companion/sidekick character I ever saw in a game, by a wide margin.

 

I hope you mean the vehicle.

[Wolfman]

You mean a character like "Lucky" from Waiting For Godot? Or the Silent Bob of Jay? I'd go for that.

[Sartoz]

 Snip

 

I am not a big fan of dancing around the issue so lets just call a spade a spade, Kojima had Quiet's outfit designed the way it was because it makes his **** hard.

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LOL!

Japanese culture is not obsessed with nudity or semi/nudity or titillating custumes as the US. Certainly their anime cartoon/movies shows us that much, So, I believe his creation comes from his Japanese cultural background. Having said that, he did admit he wanted to make Quiet sexy and not erotic. Again, nothing wrong with it either.

 

Yet, show some skin and we get an uproar.  Seems like the mature 18+ rating means something else to some fans.