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[Heimdall]

 I believe that the Humans appeared on Thedas after the Elvhen Empire had been nuked by Solas' Veil Bomb. Arlathan fell long before the Humans conquered the Arlathan Forest from the Elven remnants, which happened long long before the Magisters raided the Black City. Both Abelas and World of Thedas Volume 2 support this. In the pre-Veil World, Elves had magic and Dwarves apparently had Titan powers. It is implied in the Lyrium mines the Elves did something to the Dwarves, thus creating the Dwarves we know. Then Mythal dies, sometime after Fen'Harel starts his rebellion, and then Fen'Harel creates the Veil. Humans were mortal and in their own legends, had to learn magic from some outside source (Elves and Old Gods have been accredited to this). This implies they were post-Veil entities and that, thus far, we only know of Dwarves and Elves that pre-date the Veil along with Spirits. Regardless of this, Tevinter Priests lost contact with the Old Gods around the time they raided the Black City. A long time after the Elves were all enslaved, possibly thousands of years after the Elven Gods were severed completely from both the Fade and the Mortal World. The Old Gods are thus pretty much confirmed to be not the Evanuris. What they are, is unclear though, but I have a sneaking suspicion they have something to do with the War between the Elves and the Titan Dwarves.

Well they are imprisoned underground.  What I'm not clear on is whether the war with the Titans is the one that elevated the Evanuris to godhood.  The text in the Temple of Mythal indicates they where already worshipped but it could be that the author was writing in hindsight.

 

But if that original war was with someone other than the Titans, maybe it was with the dragons?  Dalish legends speak of Elgar'nan defeating the sun and hiding it beneath the earth, where the Old Gods are imprisoned.  Plus we've been told that dragons ruled the skies in a time before the Veil.  Though I'm not sure how they could have been buried beneath the earth while the Titans ruled below.

 

Hm, Dalish legend also says that everything began to die because Elgar'nan hid the sun away until Mythal convinced him to let them free.  Assuming something terrible happened because of the Old Gods being hidden away, what if Mythal convinced the Evanuris to let the Great Dragons and lesser dragons free to reverse that effect?  It might explain why dragons feature so heavily in her symbols but not the other Evanuris, plus why the Old Gods would encourage Tevinter to destroy Elvhenan.

[BioWareM0d13]

Well, remember what Solas says in banter with Cassandra in the original game:

 

The Maker seems to be a foreign concept to Solas, so The Maker is unlikely to be an Evanuris.

 

I found it interesting that in the game Solas never says that the Maker doesn't exist either. 

 

Given the trend in DA that everyone's gods appear to be real, but very different from how their worshippers imagine them, I'd bet on that being the case with the Maker as well.

 

Maybe the Maker is just a very powerful spirit of faith or what have you, fed and empowered by the fervent belief of the Andrastians, similar to how fear of the Blight transformed a fear demon into Nightmare. It would be interesting in a way by having the Andrastians being their god's creator, rather than the reverse. 

[Heimdall]

I found it interesting that in the game Solas never says that the Maker doesn't exist either. 

 

Given the trend in DA that everyone's gods appear to be real, but very different from how their worshippers imagine them, I'd bet on that being the case with the Maker as well.

 

Maybe the Maker is just a very powerful spirit of faith or what have you, fed and empowered by the fervent belief of the Andrastians, similar to how fear of the Blight transformed a fear demon into Nightmare. It would be interesting in a way by having the Andrastians being their god's creator, rather than the reverse. 

Well, technically the Avvar gods are exactly what their worshipers think they are 

 

There's an old post from Gaider where he said that the belief in an absent creator god was held by humans (Presumably Neromenians) prior to adopting the cult of the Old Gods.  They didn't worship this absent creator, but they believed in his existence and that he abandoned his creation.  So the idea was around long before Andraste.

[9TailsFox]

No one is going to talk about Sandal?

He is not maker. He is Titan.

[Daerog]

The Golden City is most likely not the seat of the Maker. The creation of Man from Threnodies 5 is bunk.

 

If there be a Maker, it is obviously not what the mortal insects of Thedas thinks it is.

 

It is the creation of "man," not necessarily humans. Just mortals with souls who have a drive to do stuff. Like the elf gods. It does not necessarily conflict with anything we have learned so far. Also, it is a song, and songs have their exaggerations and hyperboles being used if it is the best way to convey the message.

 

If the Maker is a limited being, who can leave Creation or whatever, then why couldn't the Golden City have once been where the Maker dwelt? If the Maker is more like a omnipresent being, then "Seat of the Maker" probably means something other than a place where he just sat around.

 

(playing apologetics to a fictional religion is kinda fun, although it is starting to bore me a bit with there being only one mysterious religion... maybe if BioWare showed another religion that isn't picked apart like the Creators and the Avvar's faith, things would be more interesting.)

[Poledo]

I don't think the Maker will ever be truly addressed. They have already made reference to how the Gods of the DA are not real Gods but were elevated as such by tales of people over the ages. I think that ties into the Maker as well, but the Maker seems to be DA's version of God. It's one thing to say that Gods like the Elven Gods, or The Tevinter Gods were powerful people whose story grew and they became Gods due to myth as they could probably correspond with the Greek pantheon or Norse Gods. It's another to say the Maker, who is a kin to God is not real - regardless of your belief, that would open up a can of worms they probably don't want to address.

[Cz-99]

Nah. Considering how much stuff they've revealed about elves and linked to elves, I really doubt they'd make the Maker related to them too. While the Chantry is obviously wrong about stuff - such as the Veil - I don't think their origin and the origin of Andrastianism is connected to elves. The Maker's got a higher chance of being Sandal than he does an Evanuris.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Does Trespasser pretty much comfirm this? The Maker is just the most powerful Elven Mage that fell in love with a human Andreste and now lives in the Fade?

Or am I wrong?

Even in the Elven religion, there is acknowledgement to a being that is even higher than the Creators and the Forgotten Ones, a god to those beings seen as the creator of everything. That is probably the Maker from the Elven perspective. 

[RepHope]

My guess is that the Maker is the Sun from old Elvhen myth. 

It would explain why the Sun is what Andrastians use to represent the Maker, and the elves say the "Sun" is the above even the Creators. Perhaps the elves worshipped a similar deity before the Creators ascended to godhood? And then when the Evanuris took over, they perhaps claimed to be his divinely appointed rulers? Would explain why Elger'nan is described as a son of the Sun.

 

One thing I always found odd was that there are no references to the Old Gods in elven mythology. As far as we know, humanity were the first ones to hear them, and they seemed to never have spoken to the elves. Always found that to be curious.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I think the Maker is actually Solas and even he doesn't realize it. I dislike the Chantry more every day with their twisted lies. Especially after what they did to the elves.

You mean the elves that started a war and cut a swath of death and destruction throughout Southern Thedas? Yeah, how dare humans defend themselves from being wiped out.

[RepHope]

I think the Maker is actually Solas and even he doesn't realize it. I dislike the Chantry more every day with their twisted lies. Especially after what they did to the elves.

The elves destroyed themselves mate. First it was Solas who plunged them into disarray. Then at Red Crossing, they were the ones who set off the chain of events that led to their own defeat. Before that, their refusal to help during the Blight and turning away the Chantry ambassadors made them hated. Doesn't excuse what happened to them, but they weren't the innocent victims they delude themselves into thinking they were.

 

Belief of the Maker predates Solas, and even the fall of the elves if the tales of early humans are to be believed.  I'm pretty sure Solas had no interaction with Andraste. If he did, why would he be so taken back by the elves situation? During Andraste's time their situation was much, MUCH worse. If he had woken up then, why didn't he put his plan to destroy the Veil into action? Why just go back to sleep?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It would explain why the Sun is what Andrastians use to represent the Maker, and the elves say the "Sun" is the above even the Creators. Perhaps the elves worshipped a similar deity before the Creators ascended to godhood? And then when the Evanuris took over, they perhaps claimed to be his divinely appointed rulers? Would explain why Elger'nan is described as a son of the Sun.

 

One thing I always found odd was that there are no references to the Old Gods in elven mythology. As far as we know, humanity were the first ones to hear them, and they seemed to never have spoken to the elves. Always found that to be curious.

The Old Gods could be the Forgotten Ones. Elven mythology has Fen'Harel seal them deep in the earth while he seals the Creators in the sky. 

[RepHope]

I'll stick with what I think and feel and JOH made me change my view on many things. I dislike the lies of the Chantry and what they hid. Simple as that.

 

 

It seems the Gods aren't completely asleep either and in pain according to Cole, so it would be within dreams I would assume.

 

Bottom line I hate the Chantry, the Maker is a lie and and Andraste was a special mage. That's how i see it until proven differently.

 

Heh. Who said the Maker being real, and Andraste being more than what she seemed have to be opposed to one another? Wouldn't surprise me if Andraste WAS a mage, or even the Dumat OGB. But if she was, that doesn't mean she didn't hear the Maker. Kieran definitely heard some weird stuff.

[TeaLulu]

Well, remember what Solas says in banter with Cassandra in the original game:

 

The Maker seems to be a foreign concept to Solas, so The Maker is unlikely to be an Evanuris.

Not necessarily true.

 

Solas was asleep for a thousand years. Lets say Andraste DID hear voices telling her to do crap: Who is to say it wasn't one of the Evanuris speaking from the Fade, trying to get freed, and they effectively "Became" the make by virtue of whoever was in the role of talking to Andraste being deemed the Maker by her and her followers?

 

However I'd be more likely to bet the one talking to Andraste all that time was Mythal. But thats another story.

 

If anything, the fact Solas is not familiar with the concept of the Maker is definite proof they don't exist. If they did, Solas would have at least some passing familiarity with the idea, being eons old and having made the Veil and all this other junk.

[PhoenixAeon]

I think the Maker is actually Solas and even he doesn't realize it. I dislike the Chantry more every day with their twisted lies. Especially after what they did to the elves.

 

The Chantry is trying to make sense of the world around them as best they could, just like the Dalish have.  Trying to make sense in a world that does not really provide any answers.

 

When you think about it, the 'Herald of Andraste' was created by humans to trying to explain what they saw.  When it first happened I was trying to understand who started it all, and in the end it was the people who witnessed the events at the Temple of Sacred Ashes who created the Herald of Andraste. And it was thrust upon the player character by no choice of their own. Ultimately, this could be true for the Maker as well.  People are trying their best to understand the world in a context that makes sense to them.

 

But seriously, we all know BioWare is the maker.  

[The Baconer]

It is the creation of "man," not necessarily humans. Just mortals with souls who have a drive to do stuff. Like the elf gods. It does not necessarily conflict with anything we have learned so far. Also, it is a song, and songs have their exaggerations and hyperboles being used if it is the best way to convey the message.

That's the point, who wrote the Chant, rewrote it? I would never trust in the ability of man to convey the Infinite.

[Daerog]

That's the point, who wrote the Chant, rewrote it? I would never trust in the ability of man to convey the Infinite.

 

Of course the finite cannot fully convey the Infinite, that just doesn't make sense. However, that doesn't mean that the finite cannot say something true about the Infinite, such as an aspect of it or whatever. Even just calling it The Infinite may not (depending on what's being talked about) be sufficient to fully convey what is being talked about, but calling the Infinite infinite isn't necessarily wrong.

 

Language itself is a limited form of communication that may not be able to fully convey a thought that a person has, especially if that person doesn't have the dictionary of every language known memorized. However, not trusting in what people are saying does leave one with a tough social life... or no social life...

[Heimdall]

Heh. Who said the Maker being real, and Andraste being more than what she seemed have to be opposed to one another? Wouldn't surprise me if Andraste WAS a mage, or even the Dumat OGB. But if she was, that doesn't mean she didn't hear the Maker. Kieran definitely heard some weird stuff.

Point of fact, the Imperial Chantry teaches that Andraste WAS a powerful mage. They still say the Maker is real.