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[Flog the Undying]

...Bioware has been showing in turn each current religion in Thedas other than Andrastianism (pseudo-Christianity/Judaism/Islam) to be false, while not delving much into the truth of that religion?

 

In each dlc a major religion is explained - the avvar gods are spirits, the Dwarven god(s) are giant rock monsters, the Elven gods are mages...

 

The only religion that seems to be left as possibly something beyond the world as it is are the old gods and Andrastianism, and pretty much no-one worships old gods any more, and it's implied they were just dragons of some sort.

 

Add to this that Bioware (well, David Gaider, I supposed he's no longer on the DA team) has stated that they'll never confirm or deny the Maker's existence and it reeks of them being afraid to challenge monotheistic church-based religion, really.

 

I'm not sure. I might be reading too much into it, I'm just interested to see if anyone shares my suspicion/concern.

[SwobyJ]

It does smack of Western centrism.

 

A very nice and thought out Western centrism, but still.

 

That said, 'not confirming or denying the Maker' can end up (in future games) to be a sort of thing that can be considered to apply now to the other stuff as well. Avvar gods being spirits doesn't necessarily stop them from being gods. Dwarven Stone being giant rock monsters doesn't stop it from being The Stone. Elven gods being mages doesn't stop them from being gods. They may be deconstructed, but so did the Heraldness (and therefore, speculation towards Andraste herself by the player) get deconstructed. As well, I don't think you can properly accuse Bioware of not challenging many elements of monotheistic religion. They may be relatively more sympathetic towards it, but they're certainly critical and even negative about it in ways.

[Flog the Undying]

It does smack of Western centrism.

 

A very nice and thought out Western centrism, but still.

 

That said, 'not confirming or denying the Maker' can end up (in future games) to be a sort of thing that can be considered to apply now to the other stuff as well. Avvar gods being spirits doesn't necessarily stop them from being gods. Dwarven Stone being giant rock monsters doesn't stop it from being The Stone. Elven gods being mages doesn't stop them from being gods. They may be deconstructed, but so did the Heraldness (and therefore, speculation towards Andraste herself by the player) get deconstructed. As well, I don't think you can properly accuse Bioware of not challenging many elements of monotheistic religion. They may be relatively more sympathetic towards it, but they're certainly critical and even negative about it in ways.

 

The main thing I'm talking about is some gods having physical (for the world) explanations which ironically removes the 'spiritual' side of each religion, which they seem keen on Andrastianism maintaining. 

[Baboontje]

Actually, by revealing what the Elven gods truly were, they kind of denounced the Maker in my eyes as well. I believe it to be very likely that the Black City is in fact Arlathan. And not the corrupted Seat of the Maker as it were. Perhaps something more about that particular religion will come to light in DA4. *shrugs*

[vertigomez]

Meh, religions based on "the world as it is" aren't any less valid than religions based on supernatural shenanigans. It doesn't bother me in Thedas any more than it bothers me in real life, which is to say... not at all.

If anything, down-to-earth origins for the dwarven/elven religions make them MORE plausible to me. Sort of like if it turns out Andraste was a mage and the Maker's actually the douchiest Pride demon of all time. If that were the case I might have to make a few more Andrastian PCs.

[Steelcan]

All will know the Maker's Word and sing the Chant of Light

 

The Old Gods of Tevinter are twisted and corrupt

the Elven Gods  never were real, just a manifestation of their their sinful ways

The Stone isn't even a God, it just is.

[SwobyJ]

Meh, religions based on "the world as it is" aren't any less valid than religions based on supernatural shenanigans. It doesn't bother me in Thedas any more than it bothers me in real life, which is to say... not at all.

If anything, down-to-earth origins for the dwarven/elven religions make them MORE plausible to me. Sort of like if it turns out Andraste was a mage and the Maker's actually the douchiest Pride demon of all time. If that were the case I might have to make a few more Andrastian PCs.

 

Indeed.

 

At the very least they have a point.

 

Avaar gods have real effect.

 

The Stone has real effect.

 

We still have no proof that anything Maker has any effect.

 

I guess that's more IRL religion, but I can consider that a denouncement of IRL religion then. From a certain POV.

[SwobyJ]

All will know the Maker's Word and sing the Chant of Light

 

The Old Gods of Tevinter are twisted and corrupt

the Elven Gods  never were real, just a manifestation of their their sinful ways

The Stone isn't even a God, it just is.

 

Thedas: LALALALA Singalonglalalaalalalala

 

Maker: Hey bros

[Mirrman70]

The very nature of the Maker is that it does not act directly in the world. It's always acted through prophets and the like. There is no way to definitively proove one way or the other.

[Super Drone]

Eh. I imagine at some point they will drive home that Andraste was a sick, lonely, uneducated slave who "heard" the voice of the "Maker" after a trouble adolescence where she "heard" other voices speak to her.

[RepHope]

Part of that is that the Maker is MEANT to represnt "faith in the unseen". You can attribute events to his divine intervention or not, but there's no hard evidence either way. That said, I think the best portrayal of the Maker/Andraste maybe being there, maybe not, was the Temple of Sacred Ashes in Origins. Something ​weird  w​as going on there, and it was entirely plausible that maybe something divine really was at work.

 

I prefer that to DA:I's way of there being absolutely no indication what so ever that the Maker was involved at all, yet it was portrayed as there might be some divine force behind it all. Either way they can't remain coy about the Black City, Maker, and Old Gods forever. Solas is related to all three of those. He was around when the Golden City was still gold, he seems to know things about the Old Gods and the Blight.

[RepHope]

Eh. I imagine at some point they will drive home that Andraste was a sick, lonely, uneducated slave who "heard" the voice of the "Maker" after a trouble adolescence where she "heard" other voices speak to her.

 

I doubt it honestly. That would mean decisively dis/proving the Maker's existence. Weekes might be more willing to reveal DA's secrets than Gaider was, but I doubt they plan on ever revealing all of them.

[Steelcan]

I fully plan on the Black City being revealed as Arlathan, it doesn't disprove Andrastianism, the Clerics just have to jump up the timeline a bit to the elves being the ones who originally ousted the Maker

[VorexRyder]

The main thing I'm talking about is some gods having physical (for the world) explanations which ironically removes the 'spiritual' side of each religion, which they seem keen on Andrastianism maintaining. 

Except that aprt from the Abrahamic faith, not many IRL religions hold their gods to lack physical stuff or they aren't Omni-Anything. The Norse needed the apples of Idunn to be immortal and a lot of other religions also have gods dying or living somewhere on Earth.

[Rekkampum]

...Bioware has been showing in turn each current religion in Thedas other than Andrastianism (pseudo-Christianity/Judaism/Islam) to be false, while not delving much into the truth of that religion?

 

In each dlc a major religion is explained - the avvar gods are spirits, the Dwarven god(s) are giant rock monsters, the Elven gods are mages...

 

The only religion that seems to be left as possibly something beyond the world as it is are the old gods and Andrastianism, and pretty much no-one worships old gods any more, and it's implied they were just dragons of some sort.

 

Add to this that Bioware (well, David Gaider, I supposed he's no longer on the DA team) has stated that they'll never confirm or deny the Maker's existence and it reeks of them being afraid to challenge monotheistic church-based religion, really.

 

I'm not sure. I might be reading too much into it, I'm just interested to see if anyone shares my suspicion/concern.

 

It's a bit Eurocentric but I think you are ignoring that the flaws of the Andrastian Chantry have been made pretty clear, which did include blatant censorship and historical revisionism. It's also a bit subjective and philosophical, because the Evanuris at one point actually were immortal, and certainly powerful enough to be worshiped as deities, even if they weren't divine in origin. The Chant of Light is also shrouded in mystery because while there are basic elements that are true - the Magisters did storm the Golden City and Andraste was a real person - the metaphysical elements at most remain vague. Their story of how the Blight came about doesn't fit the actual account of Corypheus, who was literally there when it all happened, and there's still no definitive evidence the Maker does or doesn't exist. Historians still disagree on whether Andraste was literally the Bride of the Maker or just a very powerful mage - hence the South's split from Tevinter's Chantry- so I wouldn't say Andrastianism is being proven as any more "true" than other religions. For all intents and purposes, the "elven gods" did exist. They simply weren't "gods" in the sense that we'd imagine them. So I think there's a lot more to be considered when analyzing this.

[TK514]

Nope, don't see any particular problem with this at all.  I doubt there some BioWare writer's conspiracy to insinuate "Christianity is the one true religion" through their fantasy proxy, or that "those dirty scrub pagans and pantheists can suck it".

[Dabrikishaw]

Discomforting? No. Even so I don't find the lack of evidence for The Makers existence surprising, The Makers only point for existing is being ambiguous. 

[TeaLulu]

It'll denounce the Andrastians and chantry once we go into the Fade in the next game and learn the Black City is Arlathan, and that the Darkspawn have always been around and aren't a spawn of the Magisters, but rather the magisters are the result, not the cause, of the blight.

 

There's already been a lot to screw over the chantry: Think of all that Sister Amity crap in the Dales, the Chantry is PURELY political, quite obviously.

 

Yknow what else would screw the Andrastians over? Going to Tevinter and learning it ISNT a pit briming with hellfire and tortured souls under the boot heel of the oppressive mages, but rather is a fairly normal country with a lot going for it, and less political bullcrap than Orlais.

[azarhal]

Part of that is that the Maker is MEANT to represnt "faith in the unseen". You can attribute events to his divine intervention or not, but there's no hard evidence either way. That said, I think the best portrayal of the Maker/Andraste maybe being there, maybe not, was the Temple of Sacred Ashes in Origins. Something ​weird  w​as going on there, and it was entirely plausible that maybe something divine really was at work.

 

The temple is/was sitting on top of pure lyrium and the ruins under it are of elven origins.  I'm going to suggest that it/was sitting around the remains of a Titan.

[RepHope]

The temple is/was sitting on top of pure lyrium and the ruins under it are of elven origins.  I'm going to suggest that it/was sitting around the remains of a Titan.

 

Definitely an option. I believe there is a Trespasser Epilogue slide, where it's revealed that if you killed Leliana, a spirit impersonated her because "the Song" commanded it. However it's not definitively proven either way, which more than can be said for Inquisition, where there is no ambiguity what so ever.

 

 

 

It'll denounce the Andrastians and chantry once we go into the Fade in the next game and learn the Black City is Arlathan, and that the Darkspawn have always been around and aren't a spawn of the Magisters, but rather the magisters are the result, not the cause, of the blight.

 

There's already been a lot to screw over the chantry: Think of all that Sister Amity crap in the Dales, the Chantry is PURELY political, quite obviously.

 

Yknow what else would screw the Andrastians over? Going to Tevinter and learning it ISNT a pit briming with hellfire and tortured souls under the boot heel of the oppressive mages, but rather is a fairly normal country with a lot going for it, and less political bullcrap than Orlais.

Tevinter is a hellhole. The haves lord over the have-nots, magic is abused to the extreme, people have no value unless they're powerful and extremely well-connected. It has it's virtues, but it really does suck as much as everyone says it does. Dorian himself is a testament to that. He's also proof that Tevinter isn't completely beyond redemption.

[ComedicSociopathy]

At least we know for a fact that the Stone, the Creators and the Old Gods existed in some fashion.

 

Can't say the same for the Maker. 

[Heimdall]

The temple is/was sitting on top of pure lyrium and the ruins under it are of elven origins. I'm going to suggest that it/was sitting around the remains of a Titan.

What elven ruins?

[Big I]

Only the Dalish religion has been proven false.

 

The Avaar worship spirits. Dwarves worship the Stone and the Ancestors; the Stone is probably the Titans, and in Descent Cole says Renn returned to it when he died. Whether the Chant is true or not is still uncertain; it's mostly right about the cause of the Blight, but obviously wrong when it says the Maker created the Veil.

[DuskWanderer]

Only the Dalish religion is proven to not be gods. The Avvar have never believed their gods were not spirits, and the Titan is a Child of the Stone, not the Stone itself. 

[SwobyJ]

What elven ruins?