325 réponses à ce sujet

[Qis]

 

 

 

The Holy Grail only a myth of Catholic, western myth related to PAGAN Celtic, while Eastern Orthodox don't give a damn about Holy Grail, not even mentioned and absence, said nothing about it.

 

It is not a part of Christianity.

 

http://www.crystalin.../holygrail.html

 

The purpose of the myth is to justify bloodlines of western royals, especially the British royalty

 

You do realized that western Christianity or Catholicism contaminated with the old European Paganism? Easter Eggs, Christmas tree, Santa Clause with Elfs who live in North Pole riding elk cart and much more...

 

I wish you merry Christmass by the way...

[Ashagar]

The holy grail was not about justifying bloodlines, it was merely a literary device created during the high, late middle ages, it doesn't even exist in older Arthurian tales not something used to justify western bloodlines, espically so as a some of the western monarchies in the middle ages were elective and others had well established bloodlines with famous forebears such as Charlemagne, Clovis, Alfred the Great and various others.

[Iakus]

The Holy Grail only a myth of Catholic, western myth related to PAGAN Celtic, while Eastern Orthodox don't give a damn about Holy Grail, not even mentioned and absence, said nothing about it.

 

It is not a part of Christianity.

 

http://www.crystalin.../holygrail.html

 

The purpose of the myth is to justify bloodlines of western royals, especially the British royalty

 

You do realized that western Christianity or Catholicism contaminated with the old European Paganism? Easter Eggs, Christmas tree, Santa Clause with Elfs who live in North Pole riding elk cart and much more...

 

I wish you merry Christmass by the way...

The specific Arthurian legends are of course, just that.  Legends.

 

But at its root (or I suppose, part of it) is the Holy Chalice from the Gospels.  And legends of that predate Arthurian legend by a thousand years or more.  And is very much a part of some Christian traditions.  The Holy Grail is simply a (very famous) part of a larger whole.

 

Which goes back to the Urn of Sacred Ashes.  It is no wonder that people are skeptical of its existence, if there are so many stories and legends about what became of it.  Many may not think it ever existed.  Or was destroyed long ago.  Or is a curiosity in some magister's collection.  Or heck maybe Indiana Jones found it long ago.

 

Heck Andraste predates the Chantry, it may be that different factions had their own versions of what happened to her Ashes.

[Medhia_Nox]

I am done arguing with the one who love to argue for the sake of arguing. To argue with you is not my intention anyway....

 

But i say this, from DA:O to DA:I, don't see any proof of The Maker existence or any clue toward any truth about The Maker, Andraste and the Chantry religion.

 

For me, this game is based on atheist minded writers who write with atheist point of view about religion

 

This game is not pro-religion in anyway since DA:O

 

Why would my character need proof of the Maker to believe?  

 

I feel like DA presents a 'neutral' view to religion... a very basic one for people who know exceptionally little about the broad spectrum of belief human beings have had... but, certainly one that doesn't push one way or the other in terms of believe vs. non-belief.

[Qis]

Why would my character need proof of the Maker to believe?  

 

I feel like DA presents a 'neutral' view to religion... a very basic one for people who know exceptionally little about the broad spectrum of belief human beings have had... but, certainly one that doesn't push one way or the other in terms of believe vs. non-belief.

 

Like i mentioned before, religion is not just BELIEVE, no one believe just like that, no one....do you believe in Islamic God? if not then you don't believe just by believing is it not? You must be convinced to convert to Islam. Simple.

 

Similar to ancient people, they don't just believe the prophets, Noah told them "the flood is coming!!!", you see how many who believe? Only few, his family and some...others just laughed and slander...but the flood did coming.

 

Look at Jesus himself, out of thousands who live in Judea, how many believe him? ONLY 12! And one of them betray him...

 

People don't just believe for the sake of believing...

 

Believing that people just believe someone say there's a spaghetti monster in the sky is atheist mentality...atheist way of thinking and atheist view on religion and religious peoples...

[Iakus]

Why would my character need proof of the Maker to believe?  

 

I feel like DA presents a 'neutral' view to religion... a very basic one for people who know exceptionally little about the broad spectrum of belief human beings have had... but, certainly one that doesn't push one way or the other in terms of believe vs. non-belief.

Until DAI, we had no proof of the existence of the elven religion for that matter.

 

And until Descent, the Titans were all but forgotten.

 

If anything Corypheus shows that Andrastrianism may in fact have a kernal of truth in it.  Even if you have to sift through a lot of legend to find it.

[Qis]

We have a misconception about ancient peoples, we thought we are smarter than ancient people, we thought we're sceptical about religions and magic because we're modern and educated...this is wrong...the ancient peoples are not far different than us. They are also sceptical on many things, but their portrayals in movies, documentaries are poluted wth modern agenda, especially in scientific community. But if we look closely, even in religious books and stories they mentioned about unbelievers and infidels, meaning they are no different than modern peoples, today we have unbelievers and infidels is it not? What's the difference then?

 

It is just that today unbelievers and infidels are protected by laws, that's all. In ancient time...well...Crusades, Inquisition, burn at the stake.....

 

That's why i say this game view on religion is based on atheist way of thinking, how atheists view on religion and religious people...it is not convincing...every turn it against the religion it try to established...they may not prove or disproving The Maker existence but in every turn they destroy the establishment of The Maker even exist...

[Medhia_Nox]

@Qis:  You're talking about religion... not God.

 

Yes, to believe in a religion you need a reason.  

 

"IF" there is a reason I believe in a God... it is because I am.  So sure, if we "must" reduce it to agree with you... yes, there is a "reason" why I believe in a God, but it is very far removed from the experiential material reasons you're appealing to.  

[Qis]

@Qis:  You're talking about religion... not God.

 

Yes, to believe in a religion you need a reason.  

 

"IF" there is a reason I believe in a God... it is because I am.  So sure, if we "must" reduce it to agree with you... yes, there is a "reason" why I believe in a God, but it is very far removed from the experiential material reasons you're appealing to.  

 

If you want to believe in God, you must believe the religion who talk about the God, you cannot just believe the God but deny the religion who talk about the God you want to believe in.

 

If you want to believe Jesus is God, you must agree with Christianity, if you want to believe Allah is God, Jesus is just a prophet, then you must agree with Islam. If you want to believe Shiva, Vishnu, Rama and so on you must agree with Hindu. If you want to believe it is Karma that control everything you must agree with Buddha...and so on...

 

What you talk about is agnosticism, believing there is higher power but don't believe in any established religion. I don't see Dragon Age supporting that...unless you want to make head canon

[Medhia_Nox]

@Qis:  Your rules are nice, but they don't apply to me nor do I believe they apply to any God I would believe in.

 

Religions are limiting things that diminish deities... if there is a God, I don't imagine it so small as to be bound by man-made concepts.  

 

- Jesus admonished his disciples for demanding an answer for his healing of the Centurion's servant.

 

- Gandhi embraced Islam, Christianity and Hinduism (though, for a Hindu it isn't so hard... their religion is a wise one which does not limit its adherents)

 

- The Buddha tells us to reject anything that makes no sense to us.  That no guru or wisdom that does not speak to us is meant for us. 

 

- The Tao cannot even be spoken of without being diminished.  

 

- The Jews know there can be no name for God... though they also recognize they have to give the Creator "some" moniker.  

 

The greatest teachers and wisest people were not bound by what you're saying here - which is likely why religions were built around most of them instead of them being adherents to a particular religion.  

 

Animism... the first of our religious concepts... has no gods at all, but the universe itself is alive.  

 

I would suggest you are actually approaching things in a "too modern" mentality... believing the religions that exist currently are the beginning and ending to the belief in a Creator when in reality... like all organizations.... I believe we started believing in the right thing and everything has gotten screwed up since.  

 

In terms of DA... that means I think the Avvar are probably closer to any sort of "accurate" faith than the Evanuris, Chantry or Old Gods. 

[Ashagar]

Deists might believe in a single god but not the strapping of the religions around it, there are six or seven religions centered around the god of Abraham for instance.

[Qis]

@Qis:  Your rules are nice, but they don't apply to me nor do I believe they apply to any God I would believe in.

 

Religions are limiting things that diminish deities... if there is a God, I don't imagine it so small as to be bound by man-made concepts.  

 

- Jesus admonished his disciples for demanding an answer for his healing of the Centurion's servant.

 

- Gandhi embraced Islam, Christianity and Hinduism (though, for a Hindu it isn't so hard... their religion is a wise one which does not limit its adherents)

 

- The Buddha tells us to reject anything that makes no sense to us.  That no guru or wisdom that does not speak to us is meant for us. 

 

- The Tao cannot even be spoken of without being diminished.  

 

- The Jews know there can be no name for God... though they also recognize they have to give the Creator "some" moniker.  

 

The greatest teachers and wisest people were not bound by what you're saying here - which is likely why religions were built around most of them instead of them being adherents to a particular religion.  

 

Animism... the first of our religious concepts... has no gods at all, but the universe itself is alive.  

 

I would suggest you are actually approaching things in a "too modern" mentality... believing the religions that exist currently are the beginning and ending to the belief in a Creator when in reality... like all organizations.... I believe we started believing in the right thing and everything has gotten screwed up since.  

 

In terms of DA... that means I think the Avvar are probably closer to any sort of "accurate" faith than the Evanuris, Chantry or Old Gods. 

 

What you just wrote is what you believe, i have bad news for you, the reality is not like what you believe

 

Collecting some examples you believed to be true to support your belief will not convince everyone, even i not convinced. See?

 

I read Bible, Quran, Kabbalah, Tao books and many other religious and non-religious books such as Book of Five Rings, i am a book worm, involved in debates and discussions, online and offline, i have my own view about things....

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I believe DA is probably is intended to be "neutral" on religion in general. I've seen it argued that Inquisition is written with strong pro-faith bias AND that it's an atheistic attempt to deconstruct all religion, so if it was attempting to stay ambiguous and just let players make up their own mind with their own perspectives, it seems to have succeeded. 

[Medhia_Nox]

@Qis:  I am not here to convince you, or anyone.  If anything, what I wrote is precisely an affirmation of that.  

 

Though I will say, since you are so book learned - then you are clearly aware of the principles of which I speak in all these doctrines.  

 

I certainly hope you don't expect me to be cowed by the fact that you've had internet discussions?  

 

Do I dare ask what the "reality" is?  

[Kouzai]

...Bioware has been showing in turn each current religion in Thedas other than Andrastianism (pseudo-Christianity/Judaism/Islam) to be false, while not delving much into the truth of that religion?

 

In each dlc a major religion is explained - the avvar gods are spirits, the Dwarven god(s) are giant rock monsters, the Elven gods are mages...

 

The only religion that seems to be left as possibly something beyond the world as it is are the old gods and Andrastianism, and pretty much no-one worships old gods any more, and it's implied they were just dragons of some sort.

 

Add to this that Bioware (well, David Gaider, I supposed he's no longer on the DA team) has stated that they'll never confirm or deny the Maker's existence and it reeks of them being afraid to challenge monotheistic church-based religion, really.

 

I'm not sure. I might be reading too much into it, I'm just interested to see if anyone shares my suspicion/concern.

I don't find it disturbing at all. Then again one theory of mine is that people ( as a mass consciousness ) have created the absent Maker. Something along the lines of a desperate need for understanding and/or control combined with magic.

 

Or mass believing in something ( Fake it until you 'Maker' it ) 

 

'Gods' is such an umbrella term. Heroes and leaders who died have been proclaimed local and regional deities (guardians or spirits) in most, if not all, cultures. Some have been labeled as ascended when still alive. I always went with "I don't want to be reminded of that BS" when Solas dismissed his 'godhood'.

 

I don't buy the south chantry's 'bride of the maker' BS since Tevinter's chantry or pre-Andrastren beliefs make more sense to me. Then again I prefer Avaar ( Love the cultures and beliefs ) and dwarvan Stone to the church...chantry. I hope we can see Tevinter's chantry and witness the differences ourselves 

 

In short the Maker is best described as Theda's Invisible Pink ( or purple, I don't judge) Unicorn.

[Wulfram]

I believe DA is probably is intended to be "neutral" on religion in general. I've seen it argued that Inquisition is written with strong pro-faith bias AND that it's an atheistic attempt to deconstruct all religion, so if it was attempting to stay ambiguous and just let players make up their own mind with their own perspectives, it seems to have succeeded.

I agree as to the intent, but that doesn't mean they succeeded.

The thing that bugs me is the sense that while they're trying to do a respectful, neutral examination of religion and faith, polytheistic religions aren't really treated as real religions, but as instead only as mythology. But that may simply be a hangover from the game being originally written only for a culturally Andrastean character,

[SwobyJ]

I agree as to the intent, but that doesn't mean they succeeded.

The thing that bugs me is the sense that while they're trying to do a respectful, neutral examination of religion and faith, polytheistic religions aren't really treated as real religions, but as instead only as mythology. But that may simply be a hangover from the game being originally written only for a culturally Andrastean character,

That's a big part of a lot of things, yeah.

But they did succeed at emphasizing elves a LOT.

Dwarves and Qunari were hangers on but I still appreciate the inclusion and hope that this was good practice for better emphasis on both/either in DA4. (pleaseraceselection..)

[Qis]

@Qis:  I am not here to convince you, or anyone.  If anything, what I wrote is precisely an affirmation of that.  

 

Though I will say, since you are so book learned - then you are clearly aware of the principles of which I speak in all these doctrines.  

 

I certainly hope you don't expect me to be cowed by the fact that you've had internet discussions?  

 

Do I dare ask what the "reality" is?  

 

I am not only involved in internet discussions, like i said online and offline

 

Well, look at real world and look at what you believe in...do they match? You can make claim about religions, but do the peoples of the said religions agree with you? You will end up generalizing them, while the reality is they are all different, even Christian have many sects, Muslims also, and so many others. They do not agree even among themselves.

 

You said Ghandi embrace Islam, Hindu will not agree with you, if you said that in India you may get mob by them. So you have to be careful to make claims about religion or religious peoples. You know why Pakistan and India come to be? It is because of religion, they are the same people with different religion, divided because there is no other way, they can't live together, and even today they're still fighting eachother.The British mess up that area and leave, washing their hands....

 

Christianity have Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Anglican, Evengelic and so many other....Muslims have Sunni, Shiah, Wahhabi, Sufi and so many other...Buddha also have many sects....do you think they are all the same? No, they are not. So when you want to talk about religion and religious peoples, you must be specific...and don't be like Donald Trump or G.W.Bush...

 

That's the reality...

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I agree as to the intent, but that doesn't mean they succeeded.

The thing that bugs me is the sense that while they're trying to do a respectful, neutral examination of religion and faith, polytheistic religions aren't really treated as real religions, but as instead only as mythology. But that may simply be a hangover from the game being originally written only for a culturally Andrastean character,

 

I know it might not necessarily be the case if you try to apply it to all of the individual examples of religions depicted in the game, but I meant neutral on the idea of a religion in the broad sense.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Qis:  Yes, ignorant people who follow religions are a reality... I agree with you.  I don't care what any one, or one million, Hindu's believe... the man (Gandhi) was assassinated by a Hindu because he embraced Islam equally and tried, in vain, to keep his people from being ignorant louts.  Sadly, humans are largely imbecilic, and they failed him.  If anyone wants to ignore history... that is to their detriment.

 

Again.. I was talking about the belief in a "God" not the blind following of an institution.  We're on different pages.

 

I'm the Leliana of this conversation (at least how she's presented in DA:O)... you're more like Chancellor Roderick.

 

Concerning Dragon Age... the game doesn't push an atheist agenda. 

 

------

 

@Wulfram:  I don't get that at all.  The Avvar faith seems like it will actually prove to be quite the validated religion when the dust settles.  Korth is the mountain god said to have made the dwarves... well, he's going to turn out to be a Titan no doubt - at least that's my wager. 

 

Is it the mysterious all powerful deity aspect of the Maker that makes you feel like they are catering to the monotheism of the Chantry?

 

I think the game's more a study of the "Cult of Personality" than it is religion (though religion itself is a study of said cult)... but also gives faith and religion a fair study as well in the context of the game. 

 

I think the problem comes in with the DA's as they've been presented.  We know far less about the elven faith - even though we are now able to talk to an elven god.  We don't know how they were worshiped.  What they were like.  We don't even really know anything about Dalish worship.  

 

Same with the Avvar - or the Stone - the dragon cults.

 

It is strange for a world to have one major religion and one major philosophy, but that is the fault of fantasy writing which often depicts far less realistic worlds with much smaller geography.  This is a detriment to DA... especially with spirits embodying "gods".  This world should be absolutely littered with animistic deities, polytheistic deities, city deities, ancestor spirits, and a myriad of other forms of religious belief that have existed in the real world... but are strangely absent in Thedas. Perhaps that will change if Solas succeeds?

 

Still... with all its varied faults concerning religion... I think DA does an adequate job in discussing these concepts with an audience likely uninterested in such concepts on any deeper level.

[myahele]

Yeah I don;t think we'll ever have an answer on the "Maker"

 

The furthest we can go back to in recorded history leads to the Elves and whoever they went to war with (assuming it wasn't elves)

 

I am, however, interested in how The Stone "created" the Titans and subsequently Dwarves. We know that The Stone is real from the account of Valta and how most Dwarves do have "stone-sense"

 

That leads me to question, who created the Spirits, assuming that Spirits eventually did what Cole did and formed physical bodies which eventually gave rise to Elves and the other non-dwarf races?

[Ashagar]

I would say it more that Fantasy worlds generally deal with small regions of their world by necessity which off course tends to limit the cultures and religions involved especially if you have empires or kingdoms involved who fall into the ancient view of paying homage to the state gods is showing loyalty to the state,

 

I do think we will find more out about ancient maker beliefs and the old gods even if we don't find out about the nature of the maker it self since we are as I noted going to the land where maker belief entered thadas with the northern neromenian tribes and where the worship of the old gods began.

 

We will likely find out a lot more about ancient humanity which would be nice as we know a lot about modern humanity in Thadas but not ancient humanity, plenty about ancient elves and dwarves but little about ancient human civilization and the civilized human tribes of the north.

[Qis]

@Qis:  Yes, ignorant people who follow religions are a reality... I agree with you.  I don't care what any one, or one million, Hindu's believe... the man (Gandhi) was assassinated by a Hindu because he embraced Islam equally and tried, in vain, to keep his people from being ignorant louts.  Sadly, humans are largely imbecilic, and they failed him.  If anyone wants to ignore history... that is to their detriment.

 

Again.. I was talking about the belief in a "God" not the blind following of an institution.  We're on different pages.

 

I'm the Leliana of this conversation (at least how she's presented in DA:O)... you're more like Chancellor Roderick.

 

Concerning Dragon Age... the game doesn't push an atheist agenda.

 

I prefer Chancellor Palpatine "Powaaaah!!!Unlimited powaaaahhh!!!!"....

 

Talking about God is talking about religion, just like Jedi and Sith, if want to talk about The Force, you either have to agree with the Jedi or the Sith, or else you're a cast out, a minority, the one who live in the jungle with the Wookies like Jolee Bindo, and no one want to hear you....

 

"Atheist agenda" is just an exaggeration by me but Dragon Age view on religion is from atheism perspective, i believe most of the writers are atheists, so religions in Dragon Age is represented as what atheists view on religion...

[Ashagar]

Assumption is the mother of all errors and great engineering disasters...

[Heimdall]

The tricky part about "The Maker" is that he's an absent deity according to Chantry orthodoxy. His lack of presence is entirely in line with the belief in his existence. To disrupt Chantry faith would require either proving he exists, but not as the Chantry thinks, or proving that Andraste was in contact with something else. Personally I think the developers have been pretty even handed in showing Faith's to not be all that they seem.

The Dwarves were apparently created by the Titans, but they've completely forgot about or erased them.

The Evanuris were real, but not what modern elves think they were.

All of these religions may be "wrong" but they are based on something real. The issue with Andrastian faith is that there is no evidence it is based on something real and Inquisition displayed many Andrastians believing divine intervention saved them when really it was Corypheus+Solas that created their savior pretty much by accident.

Combined with the positive treatment of the Avvar, I would say that DA takes a very neutral stance on religion that seems to say "faith is what people make of it".