325 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

The tricky part about "The Maker" is that he's an absent deity according to Chantry orthodoxy. His lack of presence is entirely in line with the belief in his existence. To disrupt Chantry faith would require either proving he exists, but not as the Chantry thinks, or proving that Andraste was in contact with something else. Personally I think the developers have been pretty even handed in showing Faith's to not be all that they seem.

The Dwarves were apparently created by the Titans, but they've completely forgot about or erased them.

The Evanuris were real, but not what modern elves think they were.

All of these religions may be "wrong" but they are based on something real. The issue with Andrastian faith is that there is no evidence it is based on something real and Inquisition displayed many Andrastians believing divine intervention saved them when really it was Corypheus+Solas that created their savior pretty much by accident.

Combined with the positive treatment of the Avvar, I would say that DA takes a very neutral stance on religion that seems to say "faith is what people make of it".

 

Probably the worst thing the Devs could do to the underpinnings of Andrastianism is reveal that Andraste was an Old God Baby who didn't realize she was an Old God Baby.

 

It wouldn't actually disprove the Maker, but it would shake the underpinning basis of belief if everyone believed that Andraste was the source of the miracles herself, over her denials.

[Qis]

Maybe Andraste is the dragon The Warden killed to make Dragonbone armor...and The Warden have been "wearing" Andraste all these time....

 

Well, who know.............?

[AlanC9]

The issue with Andrastian faith is that there is no evidence it is based on something real and Inquisition displayed many Andrastians believing divine intervention saved them when really it was Corypheus+Solas that created their savior pretty much by accident.

And the weather disruptions which enabled victory over the Tevinter Empire were simply normal climate variations, or applied magic, rather than divine intervention.

One odd fact of the setting is that given the existence of magic, fade spirits, and whatnot, even outright miracles aren't very compelling evidence. As opposed to this world where miracles would be evidence, if they ever actually happened. We end up in the same place since there's no evidence in either world, of course.

[Heimdall]

Probably the worst thing the Devs could do to the underpinnings of Andrastianism is reveal that Andraste was an Old God Baby who didn't realize she was an Old God Baby.
 
It wouldn't actually disprove the Maker, but it would shake the underpinning basis of belief if everyone believed that Andraste was the source of the miracles herself, over her denials.

That's actually partly what I was thinking of when I wrote the 'in contact with something else' part.

[Heimdall]

And the weather disruptions which enabled victory over the Tevinter Empire were simply normal climate variations, or applied magic, rather than divine intervention.One odd fact of the setting is that given the existence of magic, fade spirits, and whatnot, even outright miracles aren't very compelling evidence. As opposed to this world where miracles would be evidence, if they ever actually happened. We end up in the same place since there's no evidence in either world, of course.

Actually I think I remember one note speculating that the crop failures and whatnot had more to do with the land being corrupted by the Blight than magic. So the supposed miracles might have been entirely natural.

[Iakus]

One odd fact of the setting is that given the existence of magic, fade spirits, and whatnot, even outright miracles aren't very compelling evidence. As opposed to this world where miracles would be evidence, if they ever actually happened. We end up in the same place since there's no evidence in either world, of course.

It depends on how "hard" the magic is.  What limits are put on what mages or Fade Spirits can do.  I mean, we know that mages cannot resurrect the dead, for example.  Something big enough could be seen as something "beyond magic" even erroneously ascribed to it, like, say, a fortuitous natural phenomena.

 

In fact, it makes sense that the Inquisitor stepping out of the Fade could be seen as a miracle.  Because the amount of magic it takes to project someone physically into (and presumably out of) the Fade is simply staggering in concept.  Sending the seven magisters into the Fade took two thirds of the lyrium the Imperium had at the time and the blood of several hundred slaves.  And the Inquisitor's nite-lite can pretty much do it on command.

[Qis]

Let us look at the Urn of Sacred Ashes

 

i. Located near Redcliffe - It actually not in the kingdom far far away, it is impossible to be hidden for so long, and the residents there are also impossible keep hidden for that long. What do they eat? Dragon eggs everyday? They are too creepy to be useful as a society.

 

ii. Guarded by Ash Wraith - these are said to be loyal Andraste followers who burn themselves out, but i don't believe it, because they act the same like demons, they can appear to be like anyone, demons do that in the Fade

 

iii. The Guardian can be killed - his life depends on the "ash" in the Urn. If the urn contaminated he become weak and can be beaten easily. Ash Wraiths also appear out of no where, in similar manner demon does.

 

iv. In DA2, Wraiths are demons in the deep road, eating lyrium

 

v. The Temple is build not for anyone to visit, not even Andrasterians, it is full of traps and because anyone could get killed by their own doubles before the invisible bridge

 

There is something wrong here...Oghre said the place is strong with lyrium...

 

Morrigan simply say the Guardian is a spirit...and the Guardian don't want to expose himself by not offending Morrigan with questions...demons do reading peoples mind....

[Heimdall]

i. Located near Redcliffe - It actually not in the kingdom far far away, it is impossible to be hidden for so long, and the residents there are also impossible keep hidden for that long. What do they eat? Dragon eggs everyday? They are too creepy to be useful as a society.

Um, no they were not near Redcliffe. They were hidden in the foothills of a remote mountain nobody has a reason to visit. They eat crops and livestock, presumably, no different than any other village.

ii. Guarded by Ash Wraith - these are said to be loyal Andraste followers who burn themselves out, but i don't believe it, because they act the same like demons, they can appear to be like anyone, demons do that in the Fade

Ash Wraith's are more like shades, spirits with physical bodies. And they seem to be pretty mindless, not shapeshifting demons.

iii. The Guardian can be killed - his life depends on the "ash" in the Urn. If the urn contaminated he become weak and can be beaten easily. Ash Wraiths also appear out of no where, in similar manner demon does.

Are they demons or are they not, because demons aren't tied to mystical ashes. I seem to recall most Ash Wraith's appearing from chests or ash filled braziers, hardly "out of nowhere".

iv. In DA2, Wraiths are demons in the deep road, eating lyrium

Rock Wraith's, which used to be flesh and blood dwarves, not demons.

v. The Temple is build not for anyone to visit, not even Andrasterians, it is full of traps and because anyone could get killed by their own doubles before the invisible bridge

The traps are there to deter treasure hunters and those who would seek to defile the ashes, so what?

There is something wrong here...Oghre said the place is strong with lyrium...

Morrigan simply say the Guardian is a spirit...and the Guardian don't want to expose himself by not offending Morrigan with questions...demons do reading peoples mind....

Sten claims the Guardian is a spirit too, though he knows nothing of magic. Their assumptions don't prove anything. The Gaurdian says himself that he is asking out I'd curiousity, there is no reason he wouldn't respect her wishes. That the place is surrounded by lyrium is interesting, but only a piece in a very incomplete puzzle.

[Qis]

In the Gaunlet, if you answer wrong, those "spirits" will turn into Ash Wraith and attacking you. They are not what they appear to be...they are Ash Wraith shape shift into those characters giving you puzzles....then another one you meet appear to be anyone dear to you in the past

 

Only demons do that

 

In DA2, the Rock Wraith are demons, Anders said so, and even Mage Hawke can detect it. When you kill it, abominations and shades coming out....or these just lazy design...in anyway, they are demons in disguise and eating lyrium.

 

Now, the Guardian life is tied to the ash, bound maybe....Zathrian can bound spirit to a wolf and his life tied to the curse, ending the curse is ending his life...so long the curse exist, Zathrian will live...the same here with The Guardian....he is tied to the ash, when the ash contaminated he become weak...

[Heimdall]

In the Gaunlet, if you answer wrong, those "spirits" will turn into Ash Wraith and attacking you. They are not what they appear to be...they are Ash wraith shape shift into those characters giving you puzzles....then another one you meet appear to be anyone dear to you in the past
 
Only demons do that

We don't know that only spirits do that. We still don't know what was going on in that room, really.
 

In DA2, the Rock Wraith are demons, Anders said so, and even Mage Hawke can detect it. When you kill it, s and shades coming out....or these just lazy design...in anyway, they are demons in disguise and eating lyrium.

This is an understandable mistake. There is one demon in those ruins, a hunger demon that was drawn by the unending hunger of the rock wraiths and possessed the body of one. The rock wraiths themselves are not demons.

Now, the Guardian life is tied to the ash, bound maybe....Zathrian can bound spirit to wolf and his life tied to the curse, ending the curse is ending his life...so long the curse exist, Zathrian will live...the same here with The Guardian....he is tied to the ash, when the ash contaminated he become weak...

So he isn't a spirit any more than Zathrian is, got it. Though all of that is supposition.

[Qis]

No, Zathrian is not a spirit, but he bound a spirit to a wolf, in doing so he tied to the curse making him immortal

 

The Guardian is a spirit bound to the "ash", must be someone who bound it....and that someone is immortal....somewhere....

 

 

 

 

 

Alright....that someone is none other than SOLAS

[Iakus]

 
This is an understandable mistake. There is one demon in those ruins, a hunger demon that was drawn by the unending hunger of the rock wraiths and possessed the body of one. The rock wraiths themselves are not demons.
 

And given the rock wraiths have almost certainly been exposed to red lyrium muddies the water even further.  The statue messed with Bartrand so bad Anders comments that "if he were not a dwarf I would say he was possessed" 

[AlanC9]

Alright....that someone is none other than SOLAS

Conceivable, but it's hard to come up with a plausible motivation for this.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Probably the worst thing the Devs could do to the underpinnings of Andrastianism is reveal that Andraste was an Old God Baby who didn't realize she was an Old God Baby.

 

It wouldn't actually disprove the Maker, but it would shake the underpinning basis of belief if everyone believed that Andraste was the source of the miracles herself, over her denials.

 

The Maker is the one who was supposedly the source true of the miracles. And it's not like we know exactly what the capabilities of Old God Babies are yet.

 

And even Andraste being Dumat reborn could still have a sense of compelling poetic irony in Chantry theology, since the Chant says Dumat was the one who turned mankind's hearts against the Maker. It would make the being most responsible for the First Sin also the one most responsible for undoing it. It could be argued that perhaps that's what would have finally moved the Maker to act. 

 

IMO, to shake the foundations of Andrastianism, they'd have to specifically establish the Maker wasn't involved at all.

[Ashagar]

Which admittedly quite possibly wouldn't shake the belief in the maker given the belief in him predates andraste by a far margin especially in some parts of the world like Tevinter where the maker was always believed in even if they weren't actively worshiping him merely honoring him.

[Qis]

Conceivable, but it's hard to come up with a plausible motivation for this.

 

Maybe Andraste plight is Solas sceme to bring down Tevinter Imperium, he tricked Andraste to go against Tevinter, when she died, her ash is made like what we see in the temple.

 

It happen to be that the temple is a dragon nest, maybe Solas want to make experiment with Andraste ash and the dragons, revive her in dragon form maybe. But he don't manage to done that yet, so he bound a spirit to guard the ash for thousand of years

 

Somehow the cult of Adraste found the secret, and they become crazy saying Andraste have return, but they cannot enter the temple to carry on their agenda

 

In DA:I the ash is missing, maybe Solas take it away....and maybe in DA4 we can se Solas did something with the ash and we will have a new dragon boss....

[Andraste_Reborn]

Solas was asleep the whole time Andraste was alive, and when the Temple of Sacred Ashes was built.

[AlanC9]

Oh, right. Yeah, the dates don't work.

Mythal, then?

[Iakus]

Oh, right. Yeah, the dates don't work.

Mythal, then?

There is a theory that Andraste was a previous host for Mythal before Flemeth

[cindercatz]

Don't really care much, in real world we have no magic or gods it is just fictional characters.

(Don't take this as an attack, please.)

Not true on all counts, but that's what people are taught through a lot of channels, and God's not going to force anybody to listen.

Faith isn't 'believing in something you have no evidence for. It's not following a set of rules or doctrine. It's not accepting what you're told by other people. It's believing when God makes Himself known despite the backlash from other people and despite any preconceived notions you've developed prior, whatever your worldview is. It's believing in God's love, purpose, benevolence, and faithfulness. Faith is the opposite of fear.

I can rattle off a number of true fact miracles of my life, things that break the laws of physics, encounters with real angels and real demons, precognition, levitation, the way God communicates to me and how I realize it and try to listen, all kinds of things. But you won't believe it because it hasn't happened to you yet, or you haven't let it, or you haven't needed it and it's just not your time, or He hasn't done anything quite bombastic enough to get your attention and break down those walls (doesn't play to our requirements, God is God; it's all about love, not spectacle). But your unbelief doesn't make the truth any less true. Agnostics have the humility to admit they don't know what they don't know. That's a good place to start in any mental exercise. Then you can be open to learn. No matter what it is. Personally, I'm Christian because I do have that personal relationship, and that personal walk of faith. That's unique to everyone. Not because I just blindly believed what someone told me. Atheism is a belief system, don't fool yourself otherwise; willful disbelief. God bless.

And to stay on topic, all of that applies to how different characters relate to the Maker in the fiction. Except they don't have the benefit of the real personal relationship with God available to us. Because, y'know, they're make believe protagonists, pixels on a screen.

[Madfox11]

IMO, to shake the foundations of Andrastianism, they'd have to specifically establish the Maker wasn't involved at all.

 

Which would be impossible to proof unless you actually talk with the Maker and even then fanatic believers are going to doubt you literally spoke with the Maker. After all, when dealing with an omniscient and omnipotent being, any events could be seen as a result of that beings actions directing others from behind the scenes.

 

P.S. As other posters have said, Cory's words give no proof at all on the state of the Golden City before he entered it even if you ignore his obviously mad ramblings. The moment he set foot in it, it could have instantly changed and then he would never have seen the original thing. Such a thing is pretty common in similar RL mythology.

[FemShem]

I'm just basing this on the OP, haven't read a thing.  

In the very, very beginning of the the DA series when you start as the Warden you run into a Chantry sister who is going on about he Chant and asks you if you believe in the Maker.

If you say, "no" because you have no reason to have any idea what the "Maker" is at that point, she brands you a Heathen and chases you off and refuses to speak to you or chastises you.

I remember this.

So my main toon became an Atheist in Thedas, instantly.  I mean other than getting into Leliana's pants there is no reason to go along with the Maker thing in DA:O, and that's just to playcate her...from memory.

If anything, I thought the game stood to turn you against monotheism.  Look at it's bloody history in Thedas.  What good thing did it ever do?

In DA:I do you believe your own hype?  Do you drink the coolaid?  Even if you do, it turns out to be crap.  Even if you do believe the myth, that's all it is, and the first Inquisition was a bloody mess, the second one, if you save is...well corruption is nasty no matter how you look at it.

So, no, I don't see BioWare selling the Chantry anywhere with Pamphlets.  If anything it shows how ridiculous made up religions are, or how one is not so different than another.  At least the Elvan gods were based on something tangible.

Shrug.

More tangible than the Maker.  Especially when you've got a couple of their old gods running around.  Maybe an extra soul depending on your Keep.

[Gervaise]

In response to the OP, the writers do make continued reference to the fact that what the Chantry teaches and what actually happened are two different things.   Even back in DAO we had the codices where scholars were suggesting that what the faithful claimed were miracles attributed to Andraste may actually have been natural events that coincided with her Exalted March.   This is confirmed in the World of Thedas books.    There was a similar thing with the ancient kingdom of Barindur where the Tevinter believe it was wiped from the face of the earth by Dumat for some perceived insult to him, whereas the reality is more likely it was subject to volcanic activity.     It is clear from WoT2 that Andraste was subject to many vision/trances that must have put her into contact with something from the spirit world, which she claimed was the Maker and genuinely believed was the case; convincing many of her followers likewise.   It would seem that Maferath was less convinced and when religious fervour threatened to undo all that they had achieved thus far, by insisting on taking the fight to the heart of the Imperium instead of consolidating their gains in the south, he decided to put an end to it.

 

These things are widely known in scholastic circles in southern Thedas, particularly with Celene having promoted the university which champions the study of events from a purely secular stand point.    However, it is clear that those in power don't particularly care whether what the Chantry peddles to the masses bears any relation to the truth of events, provided it keeps them in power.    Gaspard was able to sponsor a salacious play that was intended as a criticism of Celene but the content was actually insulting to the memory of their prophet, suggesting as it did that she was having an affair with Shartan and that is why Maferath moved against her.    Yet apparently no one was particularly offended by this and it was suggested that a generous contribution to the Chantry would avoid any repercussion from that direction.   That, together with the fact that the nobility play only lip service to the moral teaching of the Chant, shows that the "unifying" nature of the Chantry is more important to the powerful in Thedas than the whether what it teaches is actually the truth.    After all, you are actively dissuaded by a member of the Chantry from revealing the truth about the "miracle" of your survival from the Conclave and your "gift" from the Maker.    It is noticeable that despite having been promoted throughout the main game as the Herald of Andraste and the chosen of the Maker, who can actually have been fully invested in the role and following the moral guidance of the Chant, that doesn't stop both Ferelden and Orlais wanting your power cut back and apparently none of the faithful object.   It is easy to see how Andraste ended up getting burned.

 

So I would say that as a player (and reader of the books) I am just as disillusioned by the revelations concerning the Chantry as I am by those concerning the elves or the dwarves.    My PC gets less opportunity to express what they really think, often having words put into their mouth regardless of what I would say in their place.   For example, my Dalish doesn't feel they got things wrong because for the most part they seem to have got things right, particularly concerning why their "gods" can't respond to them and that Fen'Harel is the culprit.    To his mind, it is the Chantry telling of events that doesn't match with what has been revealed.

[Esi]

Pretty sure with DA:I they subtlety put out that Andrastian/Maker religion in the game is based off Elven religion. Which in turn also relates to ours in real life. The memes circulating about saying that -Religion- (I don't want to get into it so no bait for you guys.) is loosely just based on decade after decade of old religions. 

^ If that made any sense to you great.

Summary:
Elven Religion - Old (Magic Rules woot)

Andrastian/Maker Religion - Based on Old (Improved be it good or bad, "Magic exists to serve man and not to rule over him" <<<<<<<<<<<<<)

[Ashagar]

You got the ancient Maker belief of the northern Neromenian tribes which originally basically boiled down to the maker created the world but doesn't interfere and which which then became the Maker created the world and has his seat of power in the golden city during the Tevinter Imperium and still doesn't interfere with the world.

 

Then you get andrastianism started by a escaped Tevinter slave with the maker creating the world, having his seat of power in the golden city which was turned black by the sins of men who unleashed the blights on the world, man also caused the maker to turn away from the world by worshiping the old gods and who then left after the corruption of the golden city by the seven magisters who became the first darkspawn plus the whole magic should serve man not rule over them.

 

Then you get to the chantries, the original Tevinter which later merged with the later Orlaisian chantry before the unified chantries split again later into northern and southern chantries over issues including wither Andraste was just the prophet of the maker or his bride. Both of which teach that spreading the chant of light across the world will bring the maker back.

 

Not really seeing a elven connection there only a evolution of human religious thought.