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[VorexRyder]

Faith never requires evidence, not just religious faith but faith in general. Faith is a belief, a idea which can be both weaker and stronger than anything in the physical universe and unlike what some may thin think faith is not necessarily made weaker by doubt but can be made stronger by it.

The existence of an Absolute Maker/Creator Deity is irrelevant. The Chant's version of The Maker, on the other hand, is actively contradicted by canon. At which point believing in The Chantry's Maker stops being Faith(belief without evidence) and becomes Delusion(belief despite strong evidence to the contrary).
 
 

It's not really semantic. When people say "gods" now they don't just mean power. There's a notion of divinity that's inflected from Christianity's overarching influence.

Besides, all the elves were apparently immortal. That's not a distinction. They were more powerful mages, perhaps, but there's no indicator they were a different type of being.

It's a bit like the Avaar and their gods.

It's mentioned in developer commentary that Flemeth put some of her "Divinity" in that Eluvian for Morrigan to find, so there's something that sets the Evanuris and Forgotten Ones apart from the rest of the Elvhen, and Ghilan'nain herself was just an Elvhen Mad Scientist before the rest of the Pantheon turned her into one of them.
 

Which admittedly quite possibly wouldn't shake the belief in the maker given the belief in him predates andraste by a far margin especially in some parts of the world like Tevinter where the maker was always believed in even if they weren't actively worshiping him merely honoring him.

 The existence of an Absolute Maker/Creator Deity is irrelevant. The Chant's version of The Maker, on the other hand, is actively contradicted by canon. At which point believing in The Chantry's Maker stops being Faith(belief without evidence) and becomes Delusion(belief despite strong evidence to the contrary).
 
 

You got the ancient Maker belief of the northern Neromenian tribes which originally basically boiled down to the maker created the world but doesn't interfere and which which then became the Maker created the world and has his seat of power in the golden city during the Tevinter Imperium and still doesn't interfere with the world.
 
Then you get andrastianism started by a escaped Tevinter slave with the maker creating the world, having his seat of power in the golden city which was turned black by the sins of men who unleashed the blights on the world, man also caused the maker to turn away from the world by worshiping the old gods and who then left after the corruption of the golden city by the seven magisters who became the first darkspawn plus the whole magic should serve man not rule over them.
 
Then you get to the chantries, the original Tevinter which later merged with the later Orlaisian chantry before the unified chantries split again later into northern and southern chantries over issues including wither Andraste was just the prophet of the maker or his bride. Both of which teach that spreading the chant of light across the world will bring the maker back.
 
Not really seeing a elven connection there only a evolution of human religious thought.

And everything beyond :"the maker created the world but doesn't interfere"

Is somehow related to the Evanuris and Titans:

the Golden City, it fits the description Solas gives about Ancient Elvhen Architecture, and the knowledge that the Veil is a recent development as well as the what we see happened to a different Super Fancy Elvhen Building (The Library) when the Veil was created, we can reasonably assume that the Golden City is Arlathan.

 

As for why Arlathan is Tainted? While Solas rebelled because Mythal died, he created The Veil to prevent everything from being destroyed. Corypheus claims The GC was already Tainted when they stepped in. The descriptions of Andruil from when she went into the Void closely resemble someone being affected by the Taint. Red Lyrium is the Tainted Blood-Analog of the Titans/Mobile Instrumentality Geofront.

The Elvhen mined Lyrium, and at least the Evanuris and Forgotten Ones knew how to access The Void.

 

The Evanuris directly messing with Titan probably caused it to become Tainted. **** gets real, Solas plays both The Evanuris and Forgotten Ones against each other, then seals them away with The Veil and completely cuts off Arlathan from direct access by Eluvian, if it wasn't war-time measure implemented by the Evanuris themselves. Except for the Eluvian that you find in the Dalish Origin that had somewhat working connection.

 

There's mention of how the Titans' children split in to two, and little evidence for the origins of humanity when compared to other races. As far as we know Andraste could have been misinterpreting her connection to a Titan by applying her own cultural filter on the subject. Pictures of Shartan with a Somnaborium/Solas' Focus could mean that he was in contact with Solas while Solas was taking his nap in the same way the Magisters Sidereals communicated with the slumbering OGs.

[VorexRyder]

Let us look at the Urn of Sacred Ashes

 

i. Located near Redcliffe - It actually not in the kingdom far far away, it is impossible to be hidden for so long, and the residents there are also impossible keep hidden for that long. What do they eat? Dragon eggs everyday? They are too creepy to be useful as a society.

 

ii. Guarded by Ash Wraith - these are said to be loyal Andraste followers who burn themselves out, but i don't believe it, because they act the same like demons, they can appear to be like anyone, demons do that in the Fade

 

iii. The Guardian can be killed - his life depends on the "ash" in the Urn. If the urn contaminated he become weak and can be beaten easily. Ash Wraiths also appear out of no where, in similar manner demon does.

 

iv. In DA2, Wraiths are demons in the deep road, eating lyrium

 

v. The Temple is build not for anyone to visit, not even Andrasterians, it is full of traps and because anyone could get killed by their own doubles before the invisible bridge

 

There is something wrong here...Oghre said the place is strong with lyrium...

 

Morrigan simply say the Guardian is a spirit...and the Guardian don't want to expose himself by not offending Morrigan with questions...demons do reading peoples mind....

Spirits empowered by voluntary human sacrifice, Lyrium heavy location and the Veil being all kinds of barely a thing around the Gauntlet thanks to said Sacrifice(which counts as blood magic), there is also the fact that it is built on top an ancient Elvhen Location dedicated to Mythal and she loved her puzzles(as we see in DA:I). Just a bunch of Spirits who have an easy time of crossing over due to all the Blood magic, Lyrium, and beings made out of belief in from a land shaped by thought and emotion, allowing for all the funky stuff. We know Spirits imprint on dead people, or on memories of said people and can actually believe/pretend that they are said people. As you say, there's nothing there that can't be explained by ancient elvhen BS, blood magic and delusional spirits.

[AlanC9]

We know Spirits imprint on dead people, or on memories of said people and can actually believe/pretend that they are said people. As you say, there's nothing there that can't be explained by ancient elvhen BS, blood magic and delusional spirits.

Which just takes us back to religion in Thedas working exactly as it does ITRW.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Which would be impossible to proof unless you actually talk with the Maker and even then fanatic believers are going to doubt you literally spoke with the Maker. After all, when dealing with an omniscient and omnipotent being, any events could be seen as a result of that beings actions directing others from behind the scenes.

P.S. As other posters have said, Cory's words give no proof at all on the state of the Golden City before he entered it even if you ignore his obviously mad ramblings. The moment he set foot in it, it could have instantly changed and then he would never have seen the original thing. Such a thing is pretty common in similar RL mythology.

Well, I mean conceivably they could establish something to that effect if for example we run into Elagar'nan or someone who describes doing all Andraste's work themselves.

[SolNebula]

To me OP this only prove that Andrastianism is a fake religion without any fact supporting said cult. All other religions had incredibly powerful beings that were later considered Gods while the Maker is nowhere to be seen. In my eyes it only proves that the Maker doesn't exist and that Andraste was just a scam.

[Ashagar]

If anything that makes it more likely the maker does exist, as Solas himself said, a real god doesn't need to prove themselves.

[Dean_the_Young]

If anything that makes it more likely the maker does exist, as Solas himself said, a real god doesn't need to prove themselves.

 

Why would Solas be an authority on real gods? Has he ever met any?

[cindercatz]

Why would Solas be an authority on real gods? Has he ever met any?

Wouldn't be surprised if he has..

[Iakus]

Why would Solas be an authority on real gods? Has he ever met any?

Depends on how you define a "god"

[In Exile]

But we still use "god" to refer to entities from non-christian religions. We apply it to everything from household gods that are far more humble than the Evanuris were/are to deified emperors and hero-cults that map very closely to the actual story of the Evanuris.

And of course the Creators were always considered by the Dalish to be gods in a "pagan" sense, not an omnipotent perfect christian one. They were limited, fallible beings that were ultimately tricked and sealed away.

To put it another way, I'd say the big news for a Dalish isn't the nature of the Evanuris, but their character. The reaction I'd expect from them isn't "My gods aren't gods!", its "My gods were jerks!".


Its true that the elves were apparently all immortal, but it seems like the Evanuris were particularly unkillable - Mythal is still kicking around, and Solas had to seal away the rest of them. Though perhaps we'll learn that the other Elvhen were similarly unkillable.

But we don't think the Pharaohs were divine in the same way we say Thor is divine. The reveal about the Evanuris is of that type - we learn that there is no material true difference between them and other elves, apart from their power. There are many hints. Their divine form is not limited to their number - Morrison and random Elvhen seem to be able to acquire it. Their number is not limited to some particular prehistoric origin - one normal Elvhen is raised to their rank (can't remember the name offhand now).

This is very different from household gods or other things we use the moniker God to refer to IRL. This is why I use divinity as an example. We don't think Thor is a human with superpowers (he's not the flash). We think Thor is a materially different kind of being even if he shares our appearance. We have no evidence the Evanuris were different beings as compared to the other Elvhen.

As for Mythal, Flemeth herself suggests your theory is wrong. She says that only a wisp of Mythal survived. Whatever allowed her to continue to exist to this point is unclear, but it does not suggest a clear divinity.

[Nonoru]

The Andrastian Chantry (at least the clerics ruling them) is actually just presented as power hungry people grasping to relevance in Inquisition. They are also wrong on numerous points they claim to be true, such as the nature of demons, the origin of the blight, etc. They also aren't above removing (and probably altering) some part of the chant. 

 

There's no more reason to believe their religion any more than the others because even if their original purpose was based upon real facts, you can't trust humanity to keep its lore whole and untouched. 

 

Only the Dalish religion is proven to not be gods. The Avvar have never believed their gods were not spirits, and the Titan is a Child of the Stone, not the Stone itself. 

 

Also, the dwarf don't worship the Stone. 

[VorexRyder]

But we do have some evidence that the Evanuris became materially different from the other Elvhen: Solas says that they are not as killable as regular Elvhen, Dev commentary mentions Flemythal leaving some of her "Divinity" for Morrigan to find, and Ghilan'nain was a regular Elvhen before becoming one of the Evanuris.

 

There's obviously some quality that separates the Evanuris from the Elvhen beyond the circumstances that separate a Monarch from a Commoner, a quality that is not easily removed; otherwise Solas wouldn't have needed to make the Veil or Mythal wouldn't have "survived".

 

The Evanuris aren't Overgods or D&D style Deities, but they sure as **** are gods. Godhood doesn't mean perfection, not a Greek, Norse, or Dalish myths ever show their gods being unable to make mistakes. Gods as flawless and absolute, is a relatively new thing both IRL and in Thedas.

[AlanC9]

Mostly what I'm getting from this debate is that "god" is not a useful term.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Well I seem to recall it's alluded Andraste might have just been a mage.  In which case all of her miracles and what not were just her magic powers (potentially claimed as divine powers or possibly explained after her death as divine). 

I know this is what Dorian says the Imperial chantry believes about Andraste, but I honestly don't think it works. I mean, Andraste came from a culture with more magic in it than most of current southern Thedas (Avvar, with their spirit medium stuff going on and all that). Additionally, everyone who followed her, everyone she freed, all of them knew what magic looked like. They'd been under the boot of Tevinter magisters since time immemorial. They'd know magic when they saw it, even the powerful stuff. If magic was all she was doing, then no one would have believed her claims that the Maker was behind it. They also wouldn't have needed to, b/c hey, "We're following the super powerful mage lady who can do all these godlike things and she's gonna take out our former masters!" I mean, really, that'd be good enough for a rebellion, I'd think.

 

But she does make the claim about the Maker, and they do believe her. Whatever the Maker's miracles entailed, it was something that made people who had practical experience with magic believe that it was something more. They believed them to be actual miracles.

[Dean_the_Young]

I know this is what Dorian says the Imperial chantry believes about Andraste, but I honestly don't think it works. I mean, Andraste came from a culture with more magic in it than most of current southern Thedas (Avvar, with their spirit medium stuff going on and all that). Additionally, everyone who followed her, everyone she freed, all of them knew what magic looked like. They'd been under the boot of Tevinter magisters since time immemorial. They'd know magic when they saw it, even the powerful stuff. If magic was all she was doing, then no one would have believed her claims that the Maker was behind it. They also wouldn't have needed to, b/c hey, "We're following the super powerful mage lady who can do all these godlike things and she's gonna take out our former masters!" I mean, really, that'd be good enough for a rebellion, I'd think.

 

But she does make the claim about the Maker, and they do believe her. Whatever the Maker's miracles entailed, it was something that made people who had practical experience with magic believe that it was something more. They believed them to be actual miracles.

 

I think this is a valid point, and one that isn't raised enough, but there is another possibility-

 

Andraste could be a hedge mage.

 

IIRC, Gaider in an interview once explained that magic, if not trained, can 'set' in someone in special, unconentional ways. Hedge mages, mages who don't get training, lose the abillity and flexibility to cast spells as such, but their powers can manifest in other ways, ways that conventional magic spells normally wouldn't. I forget what his comparison was- affecting weather?- but IIRC the point was that these mages can go their lives without realizing that they are mages, because their power becomes a latent and unconscious thing. And because it's not deliberate- because the magic takes unique forms- people can not recongize it for what it is.

 

Personally I buy into the theory that Andraste was Dumat's Old God Baby, but if she were a mage I would bet that she was a hedge mage that didn't know she was one.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

I think this is a valid point, and one that isn't raised enough, but there is another possibility-

 

Andraste could be a hedge mage.

 

IIRC, Gaider in an interview once explained that magic, if not trained, can 'set' in someone in special, unconentional ways. Hedge mages, mages who don't get training, lose the abillity and flexibility to cast spells as such, but their powers can manifest in other ways, ways that conventional magic spells normally wouldn't. I forget what his comparison was- affecting weather?- but IIRC the point was that these mages can go their lives without realizing that they are mages, because their power becomes a latent and unconscious thing. And because it's not deliberate- because the magic takes unique forms- people can not recongize it for what it is.

 

Personally I buy into the theory that Andraste was Dumat's Old God Baby, but if she were a mage I would bet that she was a hedge mage that didn't know she was one.

Hmm, that does sound like some of the miracles that happened that I am aware of. Like there was a convenient landslide or something at one point as her army was marching through? And there was a famine in some Tevinter city that made it easy to take? However, these things were supposed to happen before Andraste's army got to the places involved. Like a divine hand was leading the way for her. So, like, at a rather far range, is my point. Unconscious powers or not, I dunno if that would be within the scope of power for a mage. Unless she is both Dumat's OGB and a hedge mage. Which is possible.

 

I  really hope that the next game gives us more specifics on exactly what miracles happened. We're surprisingly sparse on those details except for a few bits in the World of Thedas volumes. i mean, was it all convenient weather anomalies? like the lightning depicted around her in that one stain glass window we get in DAI as she fought? Or was there an equivalent to the Miracle of the Sun at Fatima? Something that definitely defies conventional explanation (in Thedas' case that would include magical), but still left physical evidence it occurred.

[In Exile]

But we do have some evidence that the Evanuris became materially different from the other Elvhen: Solas says that they are not as killable as regular Elvhen, Dev commentary mentions Flemythal leaving some of her "Divinity" for Morrigan to find, and Ghilan'nain was a regular Elvhen before becoming one of the Evanuris.

 

Solas never says anything to that effect. You also misquote the developer notes. They say "the essence of her god-hood", which is a strange turn of phrase. and the codex talks about Flemeth. That's just a roundabout reference to remainder of Mythal being passed around like a used shirt. In the game, Flemeth describes it as a "whisp" of Mythal. As I recall, in addition, DG commented that this is legacy information and may not be canonical. None of this is proof that there is anything distinctive about the Evanuris from other Elvhen.

 

We see evidence of people becoming spirits (this is the Baroness in DA:A). We've seen spirits become human. We know that spirits can posses humans, and wear them as meatsuits. None of this denotes divinity. 

 

I don't understand your point regarding Ghilan'nain. We're talking about a random turned into a "god". There's no equivalent human myth where Bob the illiterate neighborhood peach farmer is turned into a fully divine being indistinguishable from Zeus or Thor. 

 

Bioware might well come up with some reasons to say the Evanuris are gods in a way that's materially different from, say, Hakkon. But thus far, with DA:I over and done with, we have no evidence to say they are gods and quite a lot to say that they are not.

 

There's obviously some quality that separates the Evanuris from the Elvhen beyond the circumstances that separate a Monarch from a Commoner, a quality that is not easily removed; otherwise Solas wouldn't have needed to make the Veil or Mythal wouldn't have "survived".

 

This is tautological. Do you think the Inquisitor is "divine" as a result of having the anchor? Of course not. We're talking about a setting where magic is real. Anything we would - IRL, mythology-wise - attribute to "godhood" can easily be explained by "magic". There's no difference between these things apart from the presumption that we're talking about qualitatively different kinds of beings, with certain presumptions about their nature. But there's absolutely no evidence of this here. 

 

Do you think the twisted and Blight-infested Magisters are "gods" or "divine" because they're ostensibly unkillable? You shouldn't. 

 

The Evanuris aren't Overgods or D&D style Deities, but they sure as **** are gods. Godhood doesn't mean perfection, not a Greek, Norse, or Dalish myths ever show their gods being unable to make mistakes. Gods as flawless and absolute, is a relatively new thing both IRL and in Thedas.

 

No, you're wrong. There's no evidence they're anything different from the Pharaohs in terms of their self-styled divinity. Thus far, we've seen all of their feats replicated apart from those feats which are ostensibly attributable to the very nature of being elves (i.e., being ageless). 

[Reznore57]

I know this is what Dorian says the Imperial chantry believes about Andraste, but I honestly don't think it works. I mean, Andraste came from a culture with more magic in it than most of current southern Thedas (Avvar, with their spirit medium stuff going on and all that). Additionally, everyone who followed her, everyone she freed, all of them knew what magic looked like. They'd been under the boot of Tevinter magisters since time immemorial. They'd know magic when they saw it, even the powerful stuff. If magic was all she was doing, then no one would have believed her claims that the Maker was behind it. They also wouldn't have needed to, b/c hey, "We're following the super powerful mage lady who can do all these godlike things and she's gonna take out our former masters!" I mean, really, that'd be good enough for a rebellion, I'd think.

 

But she does make the claim about the Maker, and they do believe her. Whatever the Maker's miracles entailed, it was something that made people who had practical experience with magic believe that it was something more. They believed them to be actual miracles.

 

The Avvar believes spirits are Gods .

Tevinter was worshipping invisible dragons they were "seeing" in the fade.They say they were granted boon by their "Gods" , thing is from what I saw in JOH , you only need a random spirit around , catch its attention and you'll get some boon too , then nothing stopping you to say "My God answered my prayers!!!" that's exactly what the avvar are doing afterall except they aren't pretending there's anything special about it.

Andraste had roots among the avaar and Alamarri , people for whom spirits and gods are again the same.

 

Also it's wrong to assume everyone was buying into the "Chosen One" story around her , her own husband didn't think he was on a holy war and he didn't think his wife was holy either.He was probably the closest to her , and he sold her out to their ennemy.

So whatever miracles she was performing Maferath wasn't scared of the Maker's wrath.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Reznore57:  And yet, maybe he should have been... given what transpired after his betrayal. 

 

Let's look at the Fade as a giant archive... literally all your actions are aped by spirits into infinity.  Maferath will ALWAYS be... "the Betrayer". 

 

Sure, let's hope "souls" don't make it into the Fade... but even so, Maferath was a history builder.  Any man/woman who does great things is aware of their impact on history and actually cares about it... his impact is maligned for eternity. 

[Ashagar]

If nothing else Andaste's maker talk likely tapped into preexisting anger in the Imperium over the blight(They were apparently already killing priests of the old gods and burning temples before the invasion) and gave it a focus by blaming the Imperium for forsaking the Imperium's own creator deity. 

 

That likely helped the Alamarri's invasion likely garnering some internal support in the empire but not enough to effective win against the Imperium leading to the betrayal by Maferath in attempt to save what gains had been made which would still be lost though not to the imperium. 

[Reznore57]

@Reznore57:  And yet, maybe he should have been... given what transpired after his betrayal. 

 

Let's look at the Fade as a giant archive... literally all your actions are aped by spirits into infinity.  Maferath will ALWAYS be... "the Betrayer". 

 

Sure, let's hope "souls" don't make it into the Fade... but even so, Maferath was a history builder.  Any man/woman who does great things is aware of their impact on history and actually cares about it... his impact is maligned for eternity. 

 

Actually nope , yep his name became sort of a curse...but he made the right choice.

He sold Andraste , and this is what freed the South , the war was lost Tevinter was winning , and the southern land might have been retaken.

But he made a deal , got the lands , and Tevinter saw Andraste burn and they were a bit disgusted.Fighting a war against barbarian is one thing , seeing one poor woman being burned alive didn't feel like a great victory.So they let the barbarians go home peacefully.

 

That's the version of the story you can find in codices and even WOT2 I think , the non religious version of history at least.

There's even a dissonant chant saying Maferath's betrayal was part of the divine plan , and was ment to happen.

But the Chantry got rid of it .

Probably because the truth is if Andraste didn't die on the pyre she would have lost the war , and history would just remember her as a random lunatic.

[Qun00]

Why would Solas be an authority on real gods? Has he ever met any?

Solas was born during the early history of Thedas. He is more likely to know the answer or at least some clues than anyone alive today.

If he is open to the idea as he tells Cassandra, odds are that he knows something.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I saw that as him acknowledging that he doesn't know everything. He doesn't believe in the Maker, but for all he knows there still could be one.

[Ashagar]

I see they were taking a page from their earlier game Baldur's Gate there mixed in with some Byzantine style mosaics....

[In Exile]

I saw that as him acknowledging that he doesn't know everything. He doesn't believe in the Maker, but for all he knows there still could be one.

He likes the idea of one, at least. Although sometimes it's hard to say what Solas knows and what he lies about not knowing to keep his cover.

He knows, for example, quite a lot more about the temple of Mythal than he pretends given that he's a contemporary to the Evanuris.