325 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia_Nox]

@Reznore57:  He's Andraste's Judas... his name isn't just "kinda maligned". 

 

Only difference... is that unlike Judas who was either 1) a craven coward or 2) a willing participant in the story of Jesus forever maligned - Maferath was an aspiring world builder.

 

He betrayed Andraste so he could keep his lands - and when Tevinter converted to Andrastianism they outed him and he was stripped of everything and his sons killed him.

 

So even the barbarians loathe him.

 

He went from a great man... to hated throughout all time.  The record you're referring to about his part in the burning of Andraste is a reference to the Gospel of Judas which proposes that Judas willingly became hated by all Christians for all time as his role to fulfill the prophecy of Christ.

 

As for Tevinter... I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have taken their lands back (since... they didn't and those lands became Orlais, Ferelden, Nevarra and the Free Marches) - Mefarath just wanted peace and didn't want to have his crazy wife sending her armies against the walls of Minrathous for the next five decades. 

 

Andraste was -200... and by -12 Drakon was beginning his rise to Emperor of Orlais.  You have to remember... the lands conquered by barbarians still had Tevinter in them so the barbarians wouldn't have, and didn't, stay barbaric for long.  So... his choice only helped Andrastianism grow... not the other nations since they would have already been united under Andrastianism and unified in their continued hatred of Tevinter.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Tevinter wasn't winning the war. But Maferath was concerned that they still could if the Imperium brought more of their forces to bear on the war.

[Iakus]

 

Let's look at the Fade as a giant archive... literally all your actions are aped by spirits into infinity.  Maferath will ALWAYS be... "the Betrayer". 

 

Just want to point out, spirits ape perceptions as much as actions.  Solas mentions witnessing the battle of Ostagar in the Fade where different versions portrayed Loghain as a traitor who betrayed his king or as a hero who saved his army.  Maferath could be seen in a similar light.

[SwobyJ]

Just want to point out, spirits ape perceptions as much as actions.  Solas mentions witnessing the battle of Ostagar in the Fade where different versions portrayed Loghain as a traitor who betrayed his king or as a hero who saved his army.  Maferath could be seen in a similar light.

 

Yeah I was gonna say that (or I did but forgot? whatever, I'm not reading back to see).

[In Exile]

Just want to point out, spirits ape perceptions as much as actions.  Solas mentions witnessing the battle of Ostagar in the Fade where different versions portrayed Loghain as a traitor who betrayed his king or as a hero who saved his army.  Maferath could be seen in a similar light.

 

In fact, we know that Spirits can be molded quite radically. Avaar build gods out of them. 

[VorexRyder]

This is tautological. Do you think the Inquisitor is "divine" as a result of having the anchor? Of course not. We're talking about a setting where magic is real. Anything we would - IRL, mythology-wise - attribute to "godhood" can easily be explained by "magic". There's no difference between these things apart from the presumption that we're talking about qualitatively different kinds of beings, with certain presumptions about their nature. But there's absolutely no evidence of this here. 

 

Do you think the twisted and Blight-infested Magisters are "gods" or "divine" because they're ostensibly unkillable? You shouldn't.

Not what I was trying to get across, let me try to explain by using an example: I'd be an atheist in Thedas while fully accepting that the Evanuris, The OG, and the Avvar Gods are real gods.

 

Like, I read your response and understood both what you're saying and you think I'm trying to say, but **** if I know how to clarify the misunderstanding in regards to the point I'm trying to make.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Iakus:  That's true... but look at Loghain's "reality" and what people think about it.

 

Solas' commentary was about the player bases views of that event (let's forget that I think the Fade is analogous with an in between our real world and Thedas... spirits are our "machine spirits" we take on when we turn on our computers... beyond the Fade is the "real world" and that's why spirits can do what Cole does)... not necessarily the people of Thedas (but yes, of course also the people of Thedas since they canonized the moment). 

 

Solas was almost breaking the 4th wall in that scene because he literally mentions the two viewpoints brought up on the forums... they did this, I believe, to more intimately illuminate that different viewpoints are aped in the Fade.

 

But... let's take it like any archive.  Sure... there might be one text that talks about some good things Benedict Arnold did... but his name is synonymous with betrayal in our world.  So too with the Gospel of Judas. 

 

A man who's goal is to build his legend's worst fear would be to be maligned for all time by the people that would care about such things... and Maferath is. 

[Ashagar]

And Socrates is chiefly famous now for his death and his central role in western philosophy or even just for the fact he was proclaimed by a oracle to be the wisest of men. In his time however he wasn't just a philosopher he was a lower class stone mason and was famed as a fearless solder who fought bravely at a number of battles and even rescued the general Alcibiades. He was also a critic of both dictatorial systems and pure democracy who opposed what he viewed as immoral in his society including the idea that might makes right.

[In Exile]

Not what I was trying to get across, let me try to explain by using an example: I'd be an atheist in Thedas while fully accepting that the Evanuris, The OG, and the Avvar Gods are real gods.

 

Like, I read your response and understood both what you're saying and you think I'm trying to say, but **** if I know how to clarify the misunderstanding in regards to the point I'm trying to make.

I'm trying to grasp what you mean - the analogy really helps - but I guess where I'm struggling is in what you consider a "real god". 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I just hope that in the next game shows us real evidence that Andraste was a powerful mage (this is the Tevinter viewpoint and since the game is taking place in Tevinter....) who pulled an Anders-Justice scenario with a Spirit of Faith (that is labelled as the Maker)...and that Maferath was just a sensible man....

[Mistic]

I just hope that in the next game shows us real evidence that Andraste was a powerful mage (this is the Tevinter viewpoint and since the game is taking place in Tevinter....) who pulled an Anders-Justice scenario with a Spirit of Faith (that is labelled as the Maker)...and that Maferath was just a sensible man....

 

I hope we know more about the origins of Andrastianism in general if we're going to Tevinter. DA:I provided information for early Andrastian cults, the truth about Elven gods, Fen'Harel, the fall of the Elven empire, the source of lyrium, red lyrium, the Rite of Tranquility, the Dales-Orlais war, Flemeth, some new bits about the Seven Magisters and the Forbidden Ones, and added the Last Inquisitor and the Titans. Truly, so many things that back in DAII seemed "shrouded in mystery forever" are now known, so I'm looking forward to what DA4 might provide.

 

Particularly, I wouldn't be surprised if we discover some mysteries about the death (and origin) of Andraste and also the Old Gods. And I really want to know how they portray the Imperial Chantry. Not everytime do we see in fiction a setting which acknowledges that the Not-Catholic Church may also have their Not-Orthodox counterpart.

[Iakus]

@Iakus:  That's true... but look at Loghain's "reality" and what people think about it.

 

Solas' commentary was about the player bases views of that event (let's forget that I think the Fade is analogous with an in between our real world and Thedas... spirits are our "machine spirits" we take on when we turn on our computers... beyond the Fade is the "real world" and that's why spirits can do what Cole does)... not necessarily the people of Thedas (but yes, of course also the people of Thedas since they canonized the moment). 

 

Solas was almost breaking the 4th wall in that scene because he literally mentions the two viewpoints brought up on the forums... they did this, I believe, to more intimately illuminate that different viewpoints are aped in the Fade.

 

But... let's take it like any archive.  Sure... there might be one text that talks about some good things Benedict Arnold did... but his name is synonymous with betrayal in our world.  So too with the Gospel of Judas. 

 

A man who's goal is to build his legend's worst fear would be to be maligned for all time by the people that would care about such things... and Maferath is. 

But the entire point is that what the spirits are imitating isn't necessarily accurate.  It's all "from a certain point of view"  It's all based on how people perceived the events.  Not the objective truth of the matter.  Which is why Solas says you need to take care with information gained from the Fade, as it is likely tinged with the beliefs and prejudices of the mind that created it.  With Ostagar as the example.

[Ashagar]

I just hope that in the next game shows us real evidence that Andraste was a powerful mage (this is the Tevinter viewpoint and since the game is taking place in Tevinter....) who pulled an Anders-Justice scenario with a Spirit of Faith (that is labelled as the Maker)...and that Maferath was just a sensible man....

 

I rather they go into preandrestian maker beliefs and that we find out more about both about the northern Neromenians tribes and ancient Tevinter. I am curious if my suspicions are right given the ancient Tevinter are a fantasy counterpart rome that ancient maker belief might have been part of the folk beliefs of ancient Tevinter practiced quietly at home likely combined with ancestor worship while in public they would worship the old gods as both a away  to show loyalty to the state and because the old gods rewarded their followers.

 

It would make sense as the ancient Romans had both a private folk religion they quietly practiced at home and the state religion which they would practice publicly to seek the blessings of the gods and show their loyalty to the state.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Iakus:  Ahh, you assume "accuracy" is at all important in history. 

 

Nothing about how humanity acts is based off objective truth. 

 

Perception is everything... especially everything made by humans (governments, civilizations, social contracts (friends, family), religion, art, history, celebrity... yes, even science... and on and on).

 

That Solas thinks the Fade is the only place you should be cautious with the truth... illustrates either carelessness of writing or illuminates how ignorant the elf is. 

[Iakus]

@Iakus:  Ahh, you assume "accuracy" is at all important in history. 

 

Nothing about how humanity acts is based off objective truth. 

 

Perception is everything... especially everything made by humans (governments, civilizations, social contracts (friends, family), religion, art, history, celebrity... yes, even science... and on and on).

 

That Solas thinks the Fade is the only place you should be cautious with the truth... illustrates either carelessness of writing or illuminates how ignorant the elf is. 

While true, I am merely trying to point out that you will find no more "truth" in the Fade than you will in any history book.  Spirits merely mimic the dreams of those who touch the Fade.  And that all this mimicry is:  dreams given form.

 

Whether Andraste was a mage, an abomination, or the Bride of the Maker, whether Maferath betrayed her out of jealousy of pragmatism.  Heck whether Hessarian killed her out of mercy or to keep her from going all abomination as she was executed, you'll likely find representations of all of the above as long as people perceived such from their own points of view.

[Mistic]

That Solas thinks the Fade is the only place you should be cautious with the truth... illustrates either carelessness of writing or illuminates how ignorant the elf is. 

 

Does he? I always interpreted those scenes as a warning to people that may think that the memories in the Fade are a shortcut to "the Truth" that is so hard to find in the material world. Heck, he spends most of the time warning against believing legends at face value, specially Dalish legends, and given his backstory he's very familiar with the idea that people in the material world twist the truth as much or even more than the spirits in the Fade.

[VorexRyder]

I'm trying to grasp what you mean - the analogy really helps - but I guess where I'm struggling is in what you consider a "real god". 

That godhood is broad enough a concept that a lot of entities can claim it, but that doesn't mean they should get automatic respect. Unless dealing with Primordial Entities of Creation or The Underlying Principles of Reality, and even then, I expect some accountability.

[AlanC9]

That's workable... but in a lot of paganism, the reason you give the gods respect, worship, etc. isn't because they deserve it, but because you're going to be screwed if you don't.

[SwobyJ]

That godhood is broad enough a concept that a lot of entities can claim it, but that doesn't mean they should get automatic respect. Unless dealing with Primordial Entities of Creation or The Underlying Principles of Reality, and even then, I expect some accountability.

 

How dare you, mortal!

[Ambient_Riot]

Honestly, I had the opposite impression. The Chant of Light was shredded pretty thoroughly in Inquisition. Between the revelation that the Black City was already corrupted when the Magisters arrived, and the fact that the Veil was created by Solas, major tenets of the religion have been proven false. The Maker didn't abandon the world because the Imperium got uppity and tried to take his 'throne', and the sundered nature of the current reality in Thedas was not the Maker's original design, but the creation of an elven mage.

 

While they haven't confirmed or denied the existence of the Maker, the Chant of Light has been shown to be full of holes.

[In Exile]

Honestly, I had the opposite impression. The Chant of Light was shredded pretty thoroughly in Inquisition. Between the revelation that the Black City was already corrupted when the Magisters arrived, and the fact that the Veil was created by Solas, major tenets of the religion have been proven false. The Maker didn't abandon the world because the Imperium got uppity and tried to take his 'throne', and the sundered nature of the current reality in Thedas was not the Maker's original design, but the creation of an elven mage.

 

While they haven't confirmed or denied the existence of the Maker, the Chant of Light has been shown to be full of holes.

 

Just like the Dalish faith. And the Seekers belief. The Inquisiton was about exposing lies - and it did that, just not the lies people expected, and not in the way they expected. 

[Ashagar]

Honestly, I had the opposite impression. The Chant of Light was shredded pretty thoroughly in Inquisition. Between the revelation that the Black City was already corrupted when the Magisters arrived, and the fact that the Veil was created by Solas, major tenets of the religion have been proven false. The Maker didn't abandon the world because the Imperium got uppity and tried to take his 'throne', and the sundered nature of the current reality in Thedas was not the Maker's original design, but the creation of an elven mage.

 

While they haven't confirmed or denied the existence of the Maker, the Chant of Light has been shown to be full of holes.

 

Except one thing in that is that we can't take Corpyheus's word that it was already black because he also boasts how he walked the golden halls. He has a annoying tendency to counterdict himself being insane and all.

[In Exile]

Except one thing in that is that we can't take Corpyheus's word that it was already black because he also boasts how he walked the golden halls. He has a annoying tendency to counterdict himself being insane and all.

 

DG confirmed that it was outwardly golden before the First Blight, insofar as there are records etc. corresponding to it being Golden. Corypheus says he found blackness. He never said it was always black.

 

Everything we've been show in DA teaches us that the religious myth isn't wrong per se, in the facts, it's wrong in the explanation. Elves were immortal, but their weird racial supremacist theory isn't the explanation. The magisters did breach the Fade and go to the City, but it wasn't the Maker that was there or created the Blight. 

 

I'm sure we'll find out there was a golden city, it was gold on the outside, and going into it did release the blight. 

[MrMrPendragon]

No I don't find it discomforting.

[VorexRyder]

It was probably Arlathan, "the Throne of the Gods, and it was empty", it gets sealed away along with the Evanuris by Solas, because the Evanuris were messing with Red Lyrium/Void Stuff(Like Andruil did) probably while at war with the Forgotten Ones, and it had gotten bad enough that the Veil was the only choice left. There's a good reason why the Old Gods match the Seven Sealed Evanuris, Dumat=Silence Elgar'nan=Nuclear Option, Urthemiel=Beauty June=Craft, Sylaise=Hearth Toth=Fire, Razikale=Mystery Dirthamen=Secrets... They might have been the High Priests/Chosen of the Evanuris, if not the Evanuris themselves.

 

 

"He took on a form reserved for the gods and their chosen, and dared to fly in the shape of the divine."-On an Elf turning into a Dragon