325 réponses à ce sujet

[Alandros]

...Bioware has been showing in turn each current religion in Thedas other than Andrastianism (pseudo-Christianity/Judaism/Islam) to be false, while not delving much into the truth of that religion?

 

In each dlc a major religion is explained - the avvar gods are spirits, the Dwarven god(s) are giant rock monsters, the Elven gods are mages...

 

The only religion that seems to be left as possibly something beyond the world as it is are the old gods and Andrastianism, and pretty much no-one worships old gods any more, and it's implied they were just dragons of some sort.

 

Add to this that Bioware (well, David Gaider, I supposed he's no longer on the DA team) has stated that they'll never confirm or deny the Maker's existence and it reeks of them being afraid to challenge monotheistic church-based religion, really.

 

I'm not sure. I might be reading too much into it, I'm just interested to see if anyone shares my suspicion/concern.

 

Well I seem to recall it's alluded Andraste might have just been a mage.  In which case all of her miracles and what not were just her magic powers (potentially claimed as divine powers or possibly explained after her death as divine).  On top of that there is actually no evidence of any impact of the so called "Creator"...  Sounds lot more like a made up idea which you can never fully disprove since it's made up.

[VorexRyder]

There's also the fact that in the Fade, a realm of dreams, Faith is a powerful force filled with OP spirits. If you add all the people that sacrificed themselves to the flames in the Temple, you have the Ashes' healing power turn out to be a combo of Blood Magic/Belief/Lyrium BS.

[Ashagar]

I think anything that comes out about Andrestian beliefs in DA4 will be more likely be about how they differ from preandrestian maker beliefs as the belief in the maker predates known history literally then about wither the maker is real or not. The ancient Nothern Neromenian tribes brought maker belief out of the north with them after all and even the anceint old god worshiping Tevinter Imperium still held a festival in his honor and held he created the world before Andreste came along with her preaching and holy wars. There might even be some remiments of nonandrestian maker worshipers in the Tevinter imperium.

[Lumix19]

I think anything that comes out about Andrestian beliefs in DA4 will be more likely be about how they differ from preandrestian maker beliefs as the belief in the maker predates known history literally then about wither the maker is real or not. The ancient Nothern Neromenian tribes brought maker belief out of the north with them after all and even the anceint old god worshiping Tevinter Imperium still held a festival in his honor and held he created the world before Andreste came along with her preaching and holy wars. There might even be some remiments of nonandrestian maker worshipers in the Tevinter imperium.

Indeed. There's variation even in religions that look superfically the same. We've got pre-Andrastianism vs post and even divergences in how Andrastianism was practiced. The modern day Cult of Andraste wasn't the only cult in existence, just the one that managed to suppress all others (particularly brutally in some cases).
Let them explore how religions come to be and the nature of faith rather than a pointless exploration of whether the Maker is real or not, I don't think that could ever be done well.

And I would love to see how the Imperial Chantry functions in Tevinter.

[MACharlie1]

I think we'll see a reveal about the true nature of Andraste in a future game. It is already an theory of Andraste merely being a mage. 

[Ashagar]

The Tevinter already viewed her as not being the bride of the maker so it would hardly shake the northern chantry though nor effect any the more ancient maker worshipers who aren't andrastian assuming of course A. the Andrastians didn't kill them all off like they tried to the nonmaker following religions or B. they didn't get exterminated by the Qunari. I am extremely interested in non Andtrastian Maker worship was like and what they belived and how it contrasts to the Andrastian sects(Bride of the Maker, Prophet of the maker) beliefs.

[rapscallioness]

I'm thinking they're working their way there. We've learned alot recently. So my guess is that even the chantry and andraste will not be off limits. even the gold/black city.

 

the nature of the maker...I think they might allude to some things through revelations of the previous stated issues. I would not mind one way or the other. When the time comes.  even a nudge and a wink.

 

 we've recently learned alot about the elves. some about the avvar. a little more about the dwarves. I suspect more about the various human beliefs and myths will be elucidated upon. And ofc the qunari.

 

I think we need to find out more solid stuff about Andraste and just what happened when she went up to that mountain for three days.  Or was she like the avvar augurs that carry a spirit while they're learning and are supposed to let it go, but maybe she did not?

 

I don;t know what this dialogue refers to. (pulled it from the da wikia). it reminds me of a possible andraste maker interaction, but i could be completely wrong. fwiw, though:

 

• Cole: She wants a Chantry but it does other things instead.
• Solas: She did not need a Chantry, she needed to remember her faith.
• Cole: But it also spent time with her. It wanted to fall, feeling.
• Solas: They are always attracted to the world of the living. 
• Cole: Why did it only talk facing one way? 
• Solas: We all have a face we want to show, and a face we we do not.

[spinachdiaper]

The DA religions are just completely annoying and 100% a figment of the uneducated collective imaginations of Thedas's dumbest occupants, Why can't we role play a complete tear down and dismantling of them in game once and for all.

[BraveVesperia]

The truth of Andrastianism might not have been explained like the other religions, but there have been various instances where mundane explanations are offered:

-Everyone thought Andraste saved the Inquisitor, but it was the Divine.

-The Divine we meet later in the Fade seems likely to be a spirit.

-The 'miracles' in the Temple of Sacred Ashes could've occured due to the amount of lyrium (according to Oghren).

-The revelations about the Veil contradict some Chantry teachings

-The Black City was already black when Corypheus arrived, and empty.

-Hints that Andraste may have been a mage (maybe 'the Maker' was a powerful spirit?)

 

It's worth noting that while the other religions are given mundane explanations, it shows that they are real. The religion is based on something. So far, Andrastianism is based on nothing more than Andraste being inspirational, with no proof at all that the Maker ever even existed.

 

It's also worth noting that the elven gods were proven to be massive arseholes. Imo, the teachings of the Chantry suggest that the Maker is also a massive arsehole. The only difference between them is that elven gods have also been proven to exist.

 

We also have nothing yet to disprove the existence of the old gods, and a few hints that they existed (Urthemiel's soul in Kieran, Coryfish's claims that he received orders from Dumat).

[correctamundo]

...Bioware has been showing in turn each current religion in Thedas other than Andrastianism (pseudo-Christianity/Judaism/Islam) to be false, while not delving much into the truth of that religion?

 

In each dlc a major religion is explained - the avvar gods are spirits, the Dwarven god(s) are giant rock monsters, the Elven gods are mages...

 

The only religion that seems to be left as possibly something beyond the world as it is are the old gods and Andrastianism, and pretty much no-one worships old gods any more, and it's implied they were just dragons of some sort.

 

Add to this that Bioware (well, David Gaider, I supposed he's no longer on the DA team) has stated that they'll never confirm or deny the Maker's existence and it reeks of them being afraid to challenge monotheistic church-based religion, really.

 

I'm not sure. I might be reading too much into it, I'm just interested to see if anyone shares my suspicion/concern.

 

Tell me. Where is your maker now? Call him. Call down his wrath upon me. You cannot? Because he does not exist.

[Ieldra]

The problem with Andrastianism lies in its structure. An absent god is conceptually immune to disproof, regardless of how many stories about them and their prophets that play in the world are revealed to be false. Just consider RL Christianity...I'd say only a minority believes in the literal truth of its origin story, or in the immaculate conception. Still, that doesn't appear to affect belief in their god that much, if at all. This is one reason why such a religion can become so powerful and enduring. Any story proven wrong is the fault of "fallible humans" and doesn't impair the god's perfection. A neat little setup that always leaves the faithful a way out.

So we'll have to live with the Maker remaining the only deity not seriously challenged, though I think we may see the truth of the Black City and it will be different from the stories. It can't be anything but different, actually, since if it was *really* the home of the Maker the Maker would be revealed as being in the world, and that would make him open to examination just like the other gods, and the element of faith that powers the religion would be seriously weakened. I don't think the DA team would want that, not necessarily because they're partial or don't want to challenge existing religious beliefs by proxy (though I think that's also the case), but because the theme of faith in some of their stories would be weakened.

[Kantr]

Tell me. Where is your maker now? Call him. Call down his wrath upon me. You cannot? Because he does not exist.

That line is even more awesome when spoken in German

[DeLaatsteGeitenneuker]

That line is even more awesome when spoken in German

Was sagt er auf Deutsch?

[Kantr]

Was sagt er auf Deutsch?

[Snowy-Ninja]

Andrastianism started as a Cult, it's mentioned in a codex. It was one of many Cult's but it wasn't until Drakon that the "chant of light" became an organized religion. The Chantry is poison, a poison that has distorted historical records, made the "common" folk afraid of magic and mages, they twist their templars into mage hating hunters and get them addicted to Lyrium and made elves, dwarves and Qunari out to be lesser to humans. There is nothing to Andrastianism, not really:

• Andraste herself is more then likely a mage possibly a dreamer, who may or may not have been a host for Mythal before Flemeth. 
   
• Remember the Chant of light is based off what Andraste supposedly sung about. So who's the say what we hear today is the same as what Andraste actually sang? Maybe when she said maker she spoke of an elven god. Read the Canticale of Andraste now and you will start to notice things that now suddenly seem so obvious for example: 
  
  
  Spoiler

  Those who oppose thee
  Shall know the wrath of heaven.
  Field and forest shall burn,
  The seas shall rise and devour them,
  The wind shall tear their nations
  From the face of the earth,
  Lightning shall rain down from the sky,
  They shall cry out to their false gods,
  And find silence.

  -Andraste 7:19

   

  Reading the chant again, instead of a maker raining down punishment we see the veil created by Solas causing major disaster across Thedas, the elves call to their gods but the gods are already locked away fast asleep. Andraste wasn't talking about the maker, she was talking about the elves and their downfall. 
   

• The Temple of scared ashes is Elven in origin, possibly related to Mythal and the ashes were not magical it was the lyrium in that mountain that saved Leliana and possibly the arl. 

I expect when the Solas plot develops we could see the Chantry (south and north) loose more power and eventually the truth is revealed, but its huge, it will shatter all belief in Thedas and beyond (those beyond the sea/ the Executors seem to believe in the chant of light or Andraste to). Its poisoned everyone, altered what the people think really happened and once you get rid of the chant of light you leave the people of Thedas asking. "What was the point?" The exalted marches on the Dales and The Mage Templar war were caused by the chantry. 

I want to see the chantry gone, the chant of light revealed to be a pack of lies and see the consquences of this. If Bioware has the gall to actually do this will have to be seen, but really where else can you go after the Elven revelation, revealing the Qun or Stone is lies somehow seems less... interesting. Plus I'd really like to know how those across the sea know about Andraste. 

To answer your question about the Maker, I like that they are never going to confirm or deny the maker because he's not important. Its how people use his image that's important. 

[Captmorgan72]

I'm going with the theory that the Maker is just a powerful spirit that communed with Andraste. We have seen how many times that "gods" were later explained to be spirits or powerful mages and how events are misinterpreted via the herald of Andraste belief that so many held for the Inquisitor.

[Darkly Tranquil]

I think we are moving closer with each game to the other shoe finally dropping. The Dragon Age was predicted to be a century of tumult and change, and what could be more tumultuous than the overturning of the one common uniting force in Thedas? I think we will get an answer one way or the other by the end of the series, and the the case for the Maker is looking shakier with every revelation.

[Olwaye]

...Bioware has been showing in turn each current religion in Thedas other than Andrastianism (pseudo-Christianity/Judaism/Islam) to be false, while not delving much into the truth of that religion?

 

In each dlc a major religion is explained - the avvar gods are spirits, the Dwarven god(s) are giant rock monsters, the Elven gods are mages...

 

The only religion that seems to be left as possibly something beyond the world as it is are the old gods and Andrastianism, and pretty much no-one worships old gods any more, and it's implied they were just dragons of some sort.

 

Add to this that Bioware (well, David Gaider, I supposed he's no longer on the DA team) has stated that they'll never confirm or deny the Maker's existence and it reeks of them being afraid to challenge monotheistic church-based religion, really.

 

I'm not sure. I might be reading too much into it, I'm just interested to see if anyone shares my suspicion/concern.

 

Regarding the Avvar and the Dwarves nothing is disproved, the Avvar know that their gods are Spirits, the Augur is quite clear on that in Jaws of Haakon, and the Dwarves never worshipped the Titans or the Stone, Renn is clear about that as well in the Descent.

Avvar and dwarves are not religious people they are spiritual people, saying that the revelations of the latest DLC proves that their belief are false is actually more of a Chantry point of view. If everything the Chantry believe in was proven wrong the Avvar and the Dwarves would still be OK with their Spirits "gods" and the Stone, spirituality doesn't need religion.

 

I don't think the game writers are afraid of challenging a religion, but the world of Thedas reflect ours and it is more difficult to disprove the existence of an all knowing, not intervening god than to disprove the existence of gods wearing togas and living on top of an actual mountain (in the case of the greek gods for exemple), which is one of the reason why the monotheistic religions of our world outlived and replaced older religions and managed to still be relevant to some in our very scientific age.

[Sui Causa]

Isn't the chant disapproven already? The maker didn't make his spirit children and then his human children separate. They were merged together and Solas separated them?

[Cobra's_back]

All will know the Maker's Word and sing the Chant of Light

 

The Old Gods of Tevinter are twisted and corrupt

the Elven Gods  never were real, just a manifestation of their their sinful ways

The Stone isn't even a God, it just is.

The maker can't be proved or unproved. It seems to leave the world in its creation's hands. Andraste is a rip off of Joan of Arc. 

[azarhal]

 

 

I don;t know what this dialogue refers to. (pulled it from the da wikia). it reminds me of a possible andraste maker interaction, but i could be completely wrong. fwiw, though:

 

• Cole: She wants a Chantry but it does other things instead.
• Solas: She did not need a Chantry, she needed to remember her faith.
• Cole: But it also spent time with her. It wanted to fall, feeling.
• Solas: They are always attracted to the world of the living. 
• Cole: Why did it only talk facing one way? 
• Solas: We all have a face we want to show, and a face we we do not.

 

I think that might be about Cassandra. Cole less or more consider Cassandra a spirit of Faith in some of their banter and Solas says that she is keeping her reason (world of the living) and Faith (spirit) split which limits her.

 

Isn't the chant disapproven already? The maker didn't make his spirit children and then his human children separate. They were merged together and Solas separated them?

 

The Elvhan pre-Veil made a distinction between spirits and themselves, they were always split. Also, technically the Chant doesn't talk about the Maker creating humans, it says "men as immutable as the stone". Finally, the Chantry never considered the dwarves as children of the Maker, we know the Titans made them so...

[Cobra's_back]

Here is a thought. If the maker gave its creations free will and thought, then would it be also true that these creations get some of the information wrong. Dorian, Cass and Leliana all believe in the maker differently. I believe that is because the game intended for them to have free will.

[Jaison1986]

The maker can't be proved or unproved. It seems to leave the world in its creations hands. Andraste is a rip off of Joan of Arc. 

 

Actually, we could. If by chance, we ever learn the truth about Andraste, we could understand how real the maker is. After all, people only believe in the maker because of what Andraste preached. If we learn the truth about her, we would learn the truth about the maker.

[Poledo]

...Bioware has been showing in turn each current religion in Thedas other than Andrastianism (pseudo-Christianity/Judaism/Islam) to be false, while not delving much into the truth of that religion?

 

In each dlc a major religion is explained - the avvar gods are spirits, the Dwarven god(s) are giant rock monsters, the Elven gods are mages...

 

The only religion that seems to be left as possibly something beyond the world as it is are the old gods and Andrastianism, and pretty much no-one worships old gods any more, and it's implied they were just dragons of some sort.

 

Add to this that Bioware (well, David Gaider, I supposed he's no longer on the DA team) has stated that they'll never confirm or deny the Maker's existence and it reeks of them being afraid to challenge monotheistic church-based religion, really.

 

I'm not sure. I might be reading too much into it, I'm just interested to see if anyone shares my suspicion/concern.

 

They won't confirm or Deny the Maker's existence because of it's similarity to God. They don't want to deal that nest of vipers. Yet if you examine what they are doing, is challenging people to question things. To look at how easy it is for someone to become more than they are, even eventually remembered as a God. Aside from the elvhen "Gods" you now have the Herald of Andraste. How do you think your Inky will be remembered in a few hundred years? People thought Thor existed for thousands of years. I've heard it said that he was worshiped longer than Jesus has been. I've never looked that up, but it still makes the point. Whatever the masses believe, is what is "correct".

 

[DarkKnightHolmes]

At first I didn't mind it but since they've given a middle finger to all the other religions in the game, we might as take a shot at Andrastarians next. Smug humans in Thedas need to be put in their place next.

 

I bet Andraste is either:

a ) A blood mage

b ) Dumat reborn (The first blight ended the same year Andraste was born)

c )  Mythal before she went into Flemeth.