325 réponses à ce sujet

[Rekkampum]

I think we are moving closer with each game to the other shoe finally dropping. The Dragon Age was predicted to be a century of tumult and change, and what could be more tumultuous than the overturning of the one common uniting force in Thedas? I think we will get an answer one way or the other by the end of the series, and the the case for the Maker is looking shakier with every revelation.

 

Writers have already said that they aren't going to prove or disprove the Maker's existence. Don't get your hopes up.

[Daerog]

I have absolutely no idea in what sense the dwarf and elf faiths fit into the Chant except in the generic "The Maker made all things so the Maker made the thing you worship" sense.  Which is largely meaningless.  

 

It all fits into a narrative that doesn't conflict with the Chant.

 

The Maker makes the Fade and Earth. Mortals turn to other beings for wisdom, power, devotion. Old Gods put into the Earth. Maker leaves. War and killing of a Titan, killing of Mythal, Solas' rebellion. Veil is made. Demons are shaped as spirits look across the Veil (Veil stops serving spirits from fulfilling their given purpose). Etc, etc.

 

None of it is conflicting; it can all fit a single narrative that puts Andrastianism on top.

 

Okay, the dalish faith is full of misleading stuff (supposedly) and the dwarves don't bother with specifics (it's just the Stone, they don't care about exploring it too much), but the info shown in Inquisition has it so there is truth to their faiths, and that truth does not conflict with Andrastianism and can actually be shoved into Andrastianism (minus the whole worshiping of the Stone or elf gods).

[Jandi]

To me it seems like most people in this thread simply aren't familiar with Judaism or Islam, because Adraste has parts of all the prophets. Moses, Jesus and Muhammad.

 

Moses freed "The People", referring to Israelites. Also went to a mountain for a few days to chill out. The Dalish, which she freed, are called "The People" in DA.

 

Jesus was crucified by Romans and if Tevinter isn't The Roman empire then I don't know what is. She was also given a merficul death, and also betrayed to the Tevinter.

 

Muhammad was a warlord, same as Andraste.

 

Maybe it's just me, but it seems pretty obvious that she has parts of all of them woven into her story.

 

I have a theory regarding the other religions as well. Most of the Elven stuff was revealed in Trespasser, but I personally guessed most of it anyhoot. Flemeth being an Elven god (not using a capital g is intended) was obvious already in DA2 and Solas knew way too much about way too many things. I also think that the Black City is indeed Arlathan, if only for the winding spires that are visible, which is what Solas said Arlathan had.

 

The whole Titan thing seems pretty clear as well. Mythal faught the titans, this is revelead but I think the origin of the Blight is connected to this. Maybe a spell of somekind caused one of the Titans to become "sick" and that's how the Blight got started, spread through the veins of said Titan in the form of Red Lyrium. It's possible that the Tevinter old gods are actually Mythals generals who were infected in the battle and were then sealed away to try and prevent the spreading of Blight, This would explain why she wanted to get the souls after the Archdemons are killed off and yes, Andraste probably had one placed in her, she's too similar to Morrigans kid with the crazy insights and whispers. This would explain why she can control him and make him come to her, because the original generals/servants had a dip in the well like you/Morrigan had.

 

The Dwarves were probably shaped out of stone, then infused with Lyrium in some fashion, remember that Red Lyrium can animate objects, as a defense mechanism by the Titans. Maybe to prevent blighted Humans from digging up the Dragons because that's what they do. The Darkspawn are always pushing in the deeproads and the Dwarves are always fighting them, endlessly. The Anvil of the Void is obviously infused with Lyrium and maybe Caridan didn't make it, maybe he found it and such things were made to make Dwarves at some point.

 

This would also explain why the Tevinter old gods are Dragons, because they are/were servants of Mythal before the Veil and are simply stuck in Dragon form due to being Blighted. Also remember that Mythal can control the Blight. In DA 1 she says her magic can keep the Blight away, probably because it was her doing in the first place, uased as a sort of a biological weapon against a Titan.

 

This is all pure conjecture however, but it makes sense to me at least.

[Illegitimus]

It all fits into a narrative that doesn't conflict with the Chant.

 

The Maker makes the Fade and Earth. Mortals turn to other beings for wisdom, power, devotion. Old Gods put into the Earth. Maker leaves. War and killing of a Titan, killing of Mythal, Solas' rebellion. Veil is made. Demons are shaped as spirits look across the Veil (Veil stops serving spirits from fulfilling their given purpose). Etc, etc.

 

None of it is conflicting; it can all fit a single narrative that puts Andrastianism on top.

 

Okay, the dalish faith is full of misleading stuff (supposedly) and the dwarves don't bother with specifics (it's just the Stone, they don't care about exploring it too much), but the info shown in Inquisition has it so there is truth to their faiths, and that truth does not conflict with Andrastianism and can actually be shoved into Andrastianism (minus the whole worshiping of the Stone or elf gods).

 

That's because anything you can imagine can be shoved into bare bones Andrastianism.  It is not possible to conflict with that kind of amorphous blob of a concept of divinity.  

[RepHope]

That's because anything you can imagine can be shoved into bare bones Andrastianism.  It is not possible to conflict with that kind of amorphous blob of a concept of divinity.  

 

Which is kind of the point of the Maker. You can believe or not believe, there's nothing definitive either way. That said there IS a higher power behind the Inquisitor though: the player.

 

That said if the theories about the Elven Gods being in the Black City are true, then they're going to have to address the Maker and Andraste sooner or later. You can't just ignore the Elves being the real creators of the City. I hope we learn more about pre-Andraste Maker worship, and more about Andraste herself in DA4.

[Daerog]

Well, the Chant says the Old Gods were of the firstborn. If that was proven to not be true and their motivations were actually benevolent, then that would go against large sections of the Chant and would conflict with Andrastianism.

 

However, no one has come forward with that idea and there is nothing leaning toward that idea. If there was a sect that believed that the Old Gods were good and benevolent, but locked away by the Forbidden Ones or something, then that would conflict with the narrative.

 

They could introduce things that conflict, and the validity of that info may be up to debate, but the devs haven't introduced any sort of conflicting info. Of course they won't say whether the Maker is true or not, but they could call into question the narrative proposed by the Chant which would bring Andrastianism into question, if not the Maker.

[Jandi]

Well, the Chant says the Old Gods were of the firstborn. If that was proven to not be true and their motivations were actually benevolent, then that would go against large sections of the Chant and would conflict with Andrastianism.

 

However, no one has come forward with that idea and there is nothing leaning toward that idea. If there was a sect that believed that the Old Gods were good and benevolent, but locked away by the Forbidden Ones or something, then that would conflict with the narrative.

 

They could introduce things that conflict, and the validity of that info may be up to debate, but the devs haven't introduced any sort of conflicting info. Of course they won't say whether the Maker is true or not, but they could call into question the narrative proposed by the Chant which would bring Andrastianism into question, if not the Maker.

 

 

 

The Chant has been contradicted by factual evidence since Dragon Age: Origins. At this point you'd have to be pretty silly to think *any* part of it is historically accurate.

 

And that's the thing with beliefs in real life as well. Those that *need* to believe will do so regardless.

[Steelcan]

The Chant has been contradicted by factual evidence since Dragon Age: Origins. At this point you'd have to be pretty silly to think *any* part of it is historically accurate.

 

And that's the thing with beliefs in real life as well. Those that *need* to believe will do so regardless.

you know, except the parts that are thus far pretty damn accurate

[Jandi]

you know, except the parts that are thus far pretty damn accurate

 

I meant that you shouldn't take anything in it as fact, just because some things are doesn't mean you should take everything else as fact until proven otherwise. In this context, you should not dismiss something simply because it goes against the Chant because the Chant isn't proof of anything.

[Illegitimus]

Well, the Chant says the Old Gods were of the firstborn. If that was proven to not be true and their motivations were actually benevolent, then that would go against large sections of the Chant and would conflict with Andrastianism.

 

However, no one has come forward with that idea and there is nothing leaning toward that idea. If there was a sect that believed that the Old Gods were good and benevolent, but locked away by the Forbidden Ones or something, then that would conflict with the narrative.

 

They could introduce things that conflict, and the validity of that info may be up to debate, but the devs haven't introduced any sort of conflicting info.

 

Yes they have.  They presented information that indicates the blight predates the human visit to the Black City and they have had Corypheus reveal to the Inquisitor that the story of his encounter with the Maker never happened.  They've also revealed that Shartan's role in history was suppressed from the Chant for the most scurrilous reasons.  Actually the claim that the Old Gods were the Maker's firstborn isn't even in the current Chant.  It's a dissonant verse although if you look higher you can see that is only a claim that the Old Gods came from the fade.  The "Maker's firstborn" are spirits.   

[Jandi]

Yes they have.  They presented information that indicates the blight predates the human visit to the Black City and they have had Corypheus reveal to the Inquisitor that the story of his encounter with the Maker never happened.  They've also revealed that Shartan's role in history was suppressed from the Chant for the most scurrilous reasons.  Actually the claim that the Old Gods were the Maker's firstborn isn't even in the current Chant.  It's a dissonant verse although if you look higher you can see that is only a claim that the Old Gods came from the fade.  The "Maker's firstborn" are spirits.   

 

But Fennyboo created the Fade, so nothing "first" could have possibly come from there.

[Ashagar]

No he created the veil which seperates the fade from the world, he didn't create the fade itself.

[Jandi]

No he created the veil which seperates the fade from the world, he didn't create the fade itself.

 

Well obviously, but there was no distinction before that. There was no such thing as "The Fade" because that name is the distinction. No one calls a big chunk of rock a sculpture untill someone makes it one.

 

Solas himself says that the Fade was not a place where one went, but a natural state of being before the Veil.

[Illegitimus]

But Fennyboo created the Fade, so nothing "first" could have possibly come from there.

 

<snort>  No he didn't.  He just made it harder to get there or back.  

[Samahl na Revas]

Well obviously, but there was no distinction before that. There was no such thing as "The Fade" because that name is the distinction. No one calls a big chunk of rock a sculpture untill someone makes it one.

 

Solas himself says that the Fade was not a place where one went, but a natural state of being before the Veil.

Not quite. While no one calls a big chunk of rock a sculpture without naming it so, the distinction is never erased instead it fades. Marble carved into a sculpture is still marble. It is in essence still a big chunk of rock.

 

Gravity, space, their distinction is the result of consequence: they affect other things. And repetition... . Thus they can be measured...somewhat. 

 

The fade is no different. To say there was no distinction is an error in interpretation. I understood Solas as saying it was a state of nature, and this I took to mean that the fade was closely to natural phenomenons. Yes, the name may have come later or before, that is a given which points to its distinction. 

[Jandi]

Not quite. While no one calls a big chunk of rock a sculpture without naming it so, the distinction is never erased instead it fades. Marble carved into a sculpture is still marble. It is in essence still a big chunk of rock.

 

Gravity, space, their distinction is the result of consequence: they affect other things. And repetition... . Thus they can be measured...somewhat. 

 

The fade is no different. To say there was no distinction is an error in interpretation. I understood Solas as saying it was a state of nature, and this I took to mean that the fade was closely to natural phenomenons. Yes, the name may have come later or before, that is a given which points to its distinction. 

 

But in this context, if the Fade wasn't a place where one went then surely it also wasn't a place where thing came out of? Spirits didn't come from somewhere, they just were. So if the Chant says that something came from the Fade then surely the Fade was already something that things came out of, meaning the Veil was already in place at that point.

 

To be more precise, the Fade as a concept didn't exist prior to the Veil being in place, therefore things coming out of the Fade happened after.

[Illegitimus]

But in this context, if the Fade wasn't a place where one went then surely it also wasn't a place where thing came out of? Spirits didn't come from somewhere, they just were. So if the Chant says that something came from the Fade then surely the Fade was already something that things came out of, meaning the Veil was already in place at that point.

 

To be more precise, the Fade as a concept didn't exist prior to the Veil being in place, therefore things coming out of the Fade happened after.

 

I see no reason to think the Fade as a concept didn't exist prior to the Veil being in place.  

[Daerog]

The Chant has been contradicted by factual evidence since Dragon Age: Origins. At this point you'd have to be pretty silly to think *any* part of it is historically accurate.

 

And that's the thing with beliefs in real life as well. Those that *need* to believe will do so regardless.

 

I'm not talking about factual evidence, as it is a song that tells a story, it will exaggerate some parts to get the story across. The narrative it tells so far fits very well with everything that has been revealed. The story that the song tells is accurate, but no, it isn't a history text like what Chantry scholars try to make.

 

Yes they have.  They presented information that indicates the blight predates the human visit to the Black City and they have had Corypheus reveal to the Inquisitor that the story of his encounter with the Maker never happened.  They've also revealed that Shartan's role in history was suppressed from the Chant for the most scurrilous reasons.  Actually the claim that the Old Gods were the Maker's firstborn isn't even in the current Chant.  It's a dissonant verse although if you look higher you can see that is only a claim that the Old Gods came from the fade.  The "Maker's firstborn" are spirits.   

 

The blight was around, but the Chant didn't say that the blight was made right then. It said the Ancient Magisters became the first darkspawn (nothing contradicts that so far, ghouls are not darkspawn) and then the Blights started. Blights with a big B, there is a different between blight and Blight. The Chant doesn't say the magisters brought the blight, but that they were tainted after they were cast out and their taint corrupted Dumat and began the first Blight.

 

Threnodies (a chapter or whatever in the Chant) never says that they met the Maker, but it does mention that they (the magisters) stepped toward an "empty throne" and that there was silence there in the Golden City. So, even Cory's talk about an empty City is talked about in the Chant. (Threnodies 8).

 

 

 

As for the Fade and Earth, there had to be a distinction, how else would the Evanuris banish the Forbidden Ones from the Earth where they could take material form? The term "Fade" is even used in the codex entries found in the Shattered Library.

[Andreas Amell]

This is still just a game to me. It's fun to ponder the weavings behind each faith but I don't take them too seriously. The game clearly reflects a contemporary western persepctive and I'm fine with that. Personally I believe Andraste was just high on lyrium when she imagined the Maker. I wouldn't doubt it if Bioware reveals that the great dragons have some diety of their own. We recently learned the Nug King exists. I just want to bring peace and order to Thedas. 

[Samahl na Revas]

But in this context, if the Fade wasn't a place where one went then surely it also wasn't a place where thing came out of? Spirits didn't come from somewhere, they just were. So if the Chant says that something came from the Fade then surely the Fade was already something that things came out of, meaning the Veil was already in place at that point.

 

To be more precise, the Fade as a concept didn't exist prior to the Veil being in place, therefore things coming out of the Fade happened after.

You would be right, if we understood all the intimacies of the Fade. We do not. However, that is not to suggest things could not manifest from the fade.

 

Diamonds manifest from the Earth. The Earth gives them composition, but there elements are from elsewhere.

 

Spirits typically serve a purpose, that purpose could of manifested from something else. Believe the Chantry if you must.

 

We also know that Spirits harbor motivation. But to the point. Are diamonds, rocks, grass, etc, not the inhabitant of some phenomena? This same question could be extended to the so called living.

 

The fade affects other things. This leaves the possibility that other things could affect the fade. We do not know the composition of spirits except what the Circle and Chantry claim. For all their claims, I would advise: doubt. 

 

"Truth is not an end, but a beginning."  "Learn."

 

In case you missed it, the Earth, diamonds, elements, all are a box within a box. Something that inhabits and is inhabited like purpose...

[Jandi]

I'm not talking about factual evidence, as it is a song that tells a story, it will exaggerate some parts to get the story across. The narrative it tells so far fits very well with everything that has been revealed. The story that the song tells is accurate, but no, it isn't a history text like what Chantry scholars try to make.

 

 

The blight was around, but the Chant didn't say that the blight was made right then. It said the Ancient Magisters became the first darkspawn (nothing contradicts that so far, ghouls are not darkspawn) and then the Blights started. Blights with a big B, there is a different between blight and Blight. The Chant doesn't say the magisters brought the blight, but that they were tainted after they were cast out and their taint corrupted Dumat and began the first Blight.

 

Threnodies (a chapter or whatever in the Chant) never says that they met the Maker, but it does mention that they (the magisters) stepped toward an "empty throne" and that there was silence there in the Golden City. So, even Cory's talk about an empty City is talked about in the Chant. (Threnodies 8).

 

 

 

As for the Fade and Earth, there had to be a distinction, how else would the Evanuris banish the Forbidden Ones from the Earth where they could take material form? The term "Fade" is even used in the codex entries found in the Shattered Library.

 

No, the Chant says that the city was golden and uncorrupted untill humans corrupted it. Cory says the city was already corrupted. That's a pretty big contradiction.

 

As far as banishing things, probably to the same place where demons and spirits go when you kill them in the Fade. I mean, they can obviously take physical form IN the Fade so why would banishing something TO the Fade prevent it? Doesn't make much sense to me, especially since *you* can take physical form in the Fade with the anchor.

 

Oh, and as far as a codex entry from the library goes, that's not really saying much since people have been coming and going for who knows how long. I mean, Mr. ENCHANTING! has a bloody CAMP there.

[Jandi]

You would be right, if we understood all the intimacies of the Fade. We do not. However, that is not to suggest things could not manifest from the fade.

 

Diamonds manifest from the Earth. The Earth gives them composition, but there elements are from elsewhere.

 

Spirits typically serve a purpose, that purpose could of manifested from something else. Believe the Chantry if you must.

 

We also know that Spirits harbor motivation. But to the point. Are diamonds, rocks, grass, etc, not the inhabitant of some phenomena? This same question could be extended to the so called living.

 

The fade affects other things. This leaves the possibility that other things could affect the fade. We do not know the composition of spirits except what the Circle and Chantry claim. For all their claims, I would advise: doubt. 

 

"Truth is not an end, but a beginning."  "Learn."

 

In case you missed it, the Earth, diamonds, elements, all are a box within a box. Something that inhabits and is inhabited like purpose...

 

If I had to guess, spirits (and demons) are manifestations of intent. When enough intent is concentrated in a spot, spirits manifest. Like Wisdom appearing in libraries for example. Like matter is condensed energy, same principle, just apply magic. A byproduct of intent, no outside realm required, just latent magic.

 

Again though I must stress that I'm just throwing out ideas and conjecture.

[RepHope]

No, the Chant says that the city was golden and uncorrupted untill humans corrupted it. Cory says the city was already corrupted. That's a pretty big contradiction.

 

As far as banishing things, probably to the same place where demons and spirits go when you kill them in the Fade. I mean, they can obviously take physical form IN the Fade so why would banishing something TO the Fade prevent it? Doesn't make much sense to me, especially since *you* can take physical form in the Fade with the anchor.

 

Oh, and as far as a codex entry from the library goes, that's not really saying much since people have been coming and going for who knows how long. I mean, Mr. ENCHANTING! has a bloody CAMP there.

 

Cory said he "walked in the halls of the Golden City". And the City WAS Golden at one point, Gaider confirmed as much. It didn't become fully Black until the magisters.

 

The Chant is half true and half exaggeration. It speaks the truth when it says that the magisters broke into the Golden City, became corrupted, and became darkspawn. It speaks the truth when it says the Old Gods were the ones who goaded the magisters into committing the act. So it gets some stuff right.

 

 It's wrong when it says the Maker condemned them and cast them out himself, (that bit about "dead whispers" is curious though, and what's interesting is that it's never clarified how exactly they got back). It might be right when it says they caused the Blight, as we know the Architect caused the Fifth Blight at the very least.

 

And part of the problem is that the Chant has been edited over the years by the Chantry, so it's hard to know for certain what Andraste really said. She seemed to have a peculiar amount of knowledge about what exactly happened though.  

[Jandi]

Cory said he "walked in the halls of the Golden City". And the City WAS Golden at one point, Gaider confirmed as much. It didn't become fully Black until the magisters.

 

The Chant is half true and half exaggeration. It speaks the truth when it says that the magisters broke into the Golden City, became corrupted, and became darkspawn. It speaks the truth when it says the Old Gods were the ones who goaded the magisters into committing the act. So it gets some stuff right.

 

 It's wrong when it says the Maker condemned them and cast them out himself, (that bit about "dead whispers" is curious though, and what's interesting is that it's never clarified how exactly they got back). It might be right when it says they caused the Blight, as we know the Architect caused the Fifth Blight at the very least.

 

And part of the problem is that the Chant has been edited over the years by the Chantry, so it's hard to know for certain what Andraste really said. She seemed to have a peculiar amount of knowledge about what exactly happened though.  

 

I just watched the conversation on YT and he says "I found only chaos and corruption" and nothing about any halls of the golden city

 

How does that translate to "golden city" again?

[The Night Haunter]

...Bioware has been showing in turn each current religion in Thedas other than Andrastianism (pseudo-Christianity/Judaism/Islam) to be false, while not delving much into the truth of that religion?

 

In each dlc a major religion is explained - the avvar gods are spirits, the Dwarven god(s) are giant rock monsters, the Elven gods are mages...

 

The only religion that seems to be left as possibly something beyond the world as it is are the old gods and Andrastianism, and pretty much no-one worships old gods any more, and it's implied they were just dragons of some sort.

 

Add to this that Bioware (well, David Gaider, I supposed he's no longer on the DA team) has stated that they'll never confirm or deny the Maker's existence and it reeks of them being afraid to challenge monotheistic church-based religion, really.

 

I'm not sure. I might be reading too much into it, I'm just interested to see if anyone shares my suspicion/concern.

Your the one interpreting them as wrong.

 

I love the Avvar's religion. They know exactly what they are doing. The worship spirits, and when that spirit dies they mourn and go through a whole ceremony and that spirit is 'revived' (another spirit takes its place). Their belief creates their gods. Considering the Maker never did a damn thing for any mortal on Thedas, while the Avvar's Gods actually help them in meaningful ways I'd say the Chantry is getting the shaft here.

 

As for the Elves: the Evanuris were gods, or at least the closest thing to a god we've ever seen. Powerful enough to slay a Titan (maybe a figurative event considering what Titans seem to be in Descent).

 

Dwarves: worship the stone, and it turns out the earth itself did indeed create them. Titans (who are probably more than just creatures given the apparent size and influence they have) created Dwarves and still exist. Should Dwarves regain contact with a Titan (indicated as likely by events) they may become the most powerful force on Thedas.

 

 

I don't know, but to my mind that makes it seem like the opposite of your hypothesis is true. There is no evidence the Maker is or ever was real, and no evidence he has any power in Thedas. For all the worship he gets he hasn't done anything to effect Thedas.