325 réponses à ce sujet

[Samahl na Revas]

If I had to guess, spirits (and demons) are manifestations of intent. When enough intent is concentrated in a spot, spirits manifest. Like Wisdom appearing in libraries for example. Like matter is condensed energy, same principle, just apply magic. A byproduct of intent, no outside realm required, just latent magic.

 

Again though I must stress that I'm just throwing out ideas and conjecture.

That is not bad and actually gave me potentially something to work with, I'll have to revisit the codices on Dwarves and anything referencing sea.  Diamonds: interlaced were ideas of impurity or imperfection,  a codex potentially referencing spirits or demons and the Dwarves and seeing them as imperfect. A codex which I have to find because I forgot the title (sigh). 

[pdusen]

It's easy not to be disproven when basically the whole premise of your religion is "Eh, our god left."

[RepHope]

I just watched the conversation on YT and he says "I found only chaos and corruption" and nothing about any halls of the golden city

 

How does that translate to "golden city" again?

 

Watch the last conversation before he goes kaboom. He clearly states that he walked in the Golden City's halls. And I've always interpreted his Legacy conversations to mean the City was Golden on the outside at least.

 

"The City. It was supposed to be GOLDEN. It was supposed to be OURS." strikes me as showing that back then the Tevinters saw the City as Golden. Otherwise why would they be surprised by it being black? You can see that the City is Black now, it's visible from very angle of the Fade. How could the ancient Tevinters, masters of the Fade, miss that?

[RepHope]

It's easy not to be disproven when basically the whole premise of your religion is "Eh, our god left."

 

Lol true that. Disaster's a coming? It's because the Maker has turned his back on us. Someone appears out of nowhere to save us? Deus Vult, Maker willed it.

[Daerog]

No, the Chant says that the city was golden and uncorrupted untill humans corrupted it. Cory says the city was already corrupted. That's a pretty big contradiction.

 

As far as banishing things, probably to the same place where demons and spirits go when you kill them in the Fade. I mean, they can obviously take physical form IN the Fade so why would banishing something TO the Fade prevent it? Doesn't make much sense to me, especially since *you* can take physical form in the Fade with the anchor.

 

Oh, and as far as a codex entry from the library goes, that's not really saying much since people have been coming and going for who knows how long. I mean, Mr. ENCHANTING! has a bloody CAMP there.

 

It was Golden before they got there. The reason people say it was once Golden and then Black is not because the Ancient Magisters told them, it's because mages noticed the difference.

 

It still doesn't conflict with the narrative, the magisters brought Sin to Heaven, the light goes away. Cory says he saw darkness, but it probably became corrupt the instant they arrived to it.

 

The theory that it was corrupt beforehand has no evidence other than Cory saying it was black when he got there. Still, I guess it is nice and fun that people would come up with theories about Andraste being Mythal and whatnot, even if the game doesn't bother giving these theories.

 

As for Codex entries from the Shattered Library, they still differentiate the Earth from the Fade and the Crossroads was built on the "border" between the two ways of being "present" in reality.

 

The codex entries were memories of ancient elves, visions that the Inquisitor witnessed, not just books that people could doodle in. If those are to be thrown out then we could possibly throw out all codex entries, since memories are pretty much primary sources compared to all the other entries that are basically secondary sources.

[Daerog]

The essence of spirits/demons gets scattered throughout the Fade when it is "killed" and then it starts to form again in some way. They technically don't get "reborn," it is just their essence forming again somewhere, maybe even forming multiple things or "pieces" from multiple "deaths" forming one spirit, although I'm just speculating at this point.

 

Wisps and Wraiths are spirits that are beginning to form again but have no intent and embody nothing; they are "mindless" things that just act. Necromancers manipulate such things and even "smaller fragments" of spirits with their magic.

[Jandi]

Watch the last conversation before he goes kaboom. He clearly states that he walked in the Golden City's halls. And I've always interpreted his Legacy conversations to mean the City was Golden on the outside at least.

 

"The City. It was supposed to be GOLDEN. It was supposed to be OURS." strikes me as showing that back then the Tevinters saw the City as Golden. Otherwise why would they be surprised by it being black? You can see that the City is Black now, it's visible from very angle of the Fade. How could the ancient Tevinters, masters of the Fade, miss that?

 

He also says seat of the gods, as in multiple gods. Yet the Chant says "seat of the Maker". Maybe it was golden on the outside at some point, but it was surely corrupted before they broke in, which contradicts the Chant directly in any case.

[RepHope]

It was Golden before they got there. The reason people say it was once Golden and then Black is not because the Ancient Magisters told them, it's because mages noticed the difference.

 

It still doesn't conflict with the narrative, the magisters brought Sin to Heaven, the light goes away. Cory says he saw darkness, but it probably became corrupt the instant they arrived to it.

 

The theory that it was corrupt beforehand has no evidence other than Cory saying it was black when he got there. Still, I guess it is nice and fun that people would come up with theories about Andraste being Mythal and whatnot, even if the game doesn't bother giving these theories.

 

As for Codex entries from the Shattered Library, they still differentiate the Earth from the Fade and the Crossroads was built on the "border" between the two ways of being "present" in reality.

 

The codex entries were memories of ancient elves, visions that the Inquisitor witnessed, not just books that people could doodle in. If those are to be thrown out then we could possibly throw out all codex entries, since memories are pretty much primary sources compared to all the other entries that are basically secondary sources.

The "Andraste was Mythal" theory never made sense to me. Flemeth had no delusions about what it was she was carrying around, and she was incredibly powerful. Yet Andraste believes that an all-powerful creator-god is speaking to her, and just lets herself be killed? That makes no sense. Why would Mythal not save her, or why would she help her in the first place? Flemeth was completely apathetic about the plight of the elves, all she cared about was revenge.

 

Now the theory that Andraste was a Dumat OGB is much more interesting if it's true. Although the problem is that Dumat is male, so he wouldn't be reincarnated in a female body, if Kieran is any indication. And it still doesn't make any sense as to why Dumat would propagate Maker-worship.

 

Andraste being anything more than an ordinary woman raises the problem of why she let herself die? Her being a Dreamer or a mage or anything more has that problem.

[ComedicSociopathy]

The Chantry claims that the Maker made the Veil. But with Trespasser we know that to be bull. 

 

And the Voice of the Maker shook the Fade
Saying: In My image I have wrought
My firstborn. You have been given dominion
Over all that exists. By your will
All things are done.
Yet you do nothing. 
The realm I have given you
Is formless, ever-changing.
 

And He knew he had wrought amiss.
So the Maker turned from his firstborn
And took from the Fade
A measure of its living flesh
And placed it apart from the Spirits, and spoke to it, saying:
Here, I decree
Opposition in all things:
For earth, sky
For winter, summer
For darkness, Light.
By My Will alone is Balance sundered
And the world given new life

[RepHope]

He also says seat of the gods, as in multiple gods. Yet the Chant says "seat of the Maker". Maybe it was golden on the outside at some point, but it was surely corrupted before they broke in, which contradicts the Chant directly in any case.

 

Because he is an Old God worshipper, so they saw the Golden City as housing the power of the Old Gods.  Becoming the Old Gods equals was why they tried to get there in the first place, another point the Chant got right. The Chantry sees the Golden City as the Maker's place of power, and so they call the seat there, the Maker's Throne. But there was still only one seat.

 

We don't actually know what happened when they got there. In Calpernia's mission, Cory rambles about how they "took he power into themselves", implying that once they were there they d​id something,​ something that changed them. It's still unclear and that's annoying as hell. What Cory did there, why he did it, what he saw and found, should've been the focus of Inquisition but it wasn't.

 

Now if it turns out that the Elven Gods created the City, or that the City was Arlathan, THAT will deal a crippling blow to the Chantry.

[Jandi]

The "Andraste was Mythal" theory never made sense to me. Flemeth had no delusions about what it was she was carrying around, and she was incredibly powerful. Yet Andraste believes that an all-powerful creator-god is speaking to her, and just lets herself be killed? That makes no sense. Why would Mythal not save her, or why would she help her in the first place? Flemeth was completely apathetic about the plight of the elves, all she cared about was revenge.

 

Now the theory that Andraste was a Dumat OGB is much more interesting if it's true. Although the problem is that Dumat is male, so he wouldn't be reincarnated in a female body, if Kieran is any indication. And it still doesn't make any sense as to why Dumat would propagate Maker-worship.

 

Andraste being anything more than an ordinary woman raises the problem of why she let herself die? Her being a Dreamer or a mage or anything more has that problem.

 

Why did Flemeth let herself be killed by HoF and company in DA:O?

 

She obviously knew it was coming, hence the delivery of the thingy to Merril.

[RepHope]

The Chantry claims that the Maker made the Veil. But with Trespasser we know that to be bull. 

 

And the Voice of the Maker shook the Fade
Saying: In My image I have wrought
My firstborn. You have been given dominion
Over all that exists. By your will
All things are done.
Yet you do nothing. 
The realm I have given you
Is formless, ever-changing.
 

And He knew he had wrought amiss.
So the Maker turned from his firstborn
And took from the Fade
A measure of its living flesh
And placed it apart from the Spirits, and spoke to it, saying:
Here, I decree
Opposition in all things:
For earth, sky
For winter, summer
For darkness, Light.
By My Will alone is Balance sundered
And the world given new life

 

That's not talking about the Veil bro, it's talking about the physical realm we inhabit. And there was a difference between the physical world and the Fade, long before Solas screwed things up for everyone. The Maker creating the Veil is a b​elief  the Chantry had, one that was indeed proven wrong, but that Chant verse isn't talking about that.​

[RepHope]

Why did Flemeth let herself be killed by HoF and company in DA:O?

 

She obviously knew it was coming, hence the delivery of the thingy to Merril.

 

Except Flemeth survived that, and she had a reason for doing so. Andraste didn't survive and what purpose did her death serve to Mythal's goals? And why would Mythal even help Andraste at all? It's not a theory that makes sense based on what happened to Andraste, and what we know of Mythal's motives.

[ComedicSociopathy]

That' not talking about the Veil bro, it's talking about the physical realm we inhabit. And there was a difference between the physical world and the Fade, long before Solas screwed things up for everyone. The Maker creating the Veil is a b​elief  the Chantry had, one that was indeed proven wrong, but that Chant verse isn't talking about that.​

 

Yeah, your right, I always assumed that the physical world was already created at that point in the verse. My mistake. 

[Daerog]

Why did Flemeth let herself be killed by HoF and company in DA:O?
 
She obviously knew it was coming, hence the delivery of the thingy to Merril.

 
Still, Andraste was a historical and public figure (married to a chief) who was known to be devout. First praying to the Lady of the Skies and other Alamarri/Avvar gods until she started praying to the Maker and became a prophet for the Maker. It doesn't seem to fit Flemeth, but who knows? Maybe Flemythal does believe in the Maker or at least approves of monotheistic religion.

 

Edit: Actually, wasn't Flemeth born way after Andraste? Since Mythal came to Flemeth, and it isn't said to be someone else who united with Mythal, it sounds like the whole Flemythal thing started way after Andraste.

[Jandi]

Because he is an Old God worshipper, so they saw the Golden City as housing the power of the Old Gods.  Becoming the Old Gods equals was why they tried to get there in the first place, another point the Chant got right. The Chantry sees the Golden City as the Maker's place of power, and so they call the seat there, the Maker's Throne. But there was still only one seat.

 

We don't actually know what happened when they got there. In Calpernia's mission, Cory rambles about how they "took he power into themselves", implying that once they were there they d​id something,​ something that changed them. It's still unclear and that's annoying as hell. What Cory did there, why he did it, what he saw and found, should've been the focus of Inquisition but it wasn't.

 

Now if it turns out that the Elven Gods created the City, or that the City was Arlathan, THAT will deal a crippling blow to the Chantry.

 

That's right, we don't know but something, somewhere doesn't add up at all. But Corypuss doesn't strike me as the type of bro to make random **** up. He is way too confident in his godhood.

[RepHope]

 
Still, Andraste was a historical and public figure (married to a chief) who was known to be devout. First praying to the Lady of the Skies and other Alamarri/Avvar gods until she started praying to the Maker and became a prophet for the Maker. It doesn't seem to fit Flemeth, but who knows? Maybe Flemythal does believe in the Maker or at least approves of monotheistic religion.

 

Flemeth does recount the Chantry-approved version of what Archdemons are to the Warden and Alistair in DA:O. However Solas' comments lead me to believe that the Maker, if he even exists, only interacts with humans. Doesn't look like the elves had much interaction with him, and Solas at least clearly doesn't believe he exists.

 

The thing with Andraste meeting Mythal, or a pride demon, or Dumat, is why would meeting those things inspire her to promote worship of a deity that had largely faded from memory? A pride demon/Dumat would just posses her, or would want her to spread worship of it, not some quasi-entity meant to represent it. Andraste worshipped the Avaar/Alamarri gods first, so what prompted her to switch beliefs? It's all very odd. Personally, if the Maker is just a spirit, a spirit of Faith would make much more sense.

[Jandi]

Flemeth does recount the Chantry-approved version of what Archdemons are to the Warden and Alistair in DA:O. However Solas' comments lead me to believe that the Maker, if he even exists, only interacts with humans. Doesn't look like the elves had much interaction with him, and Solas at least clearly doesn't believe he exists.

 

The thing with Andraste meeting Mythal, or a pride demon, or Dumat, is why would meeting those things inspire her to promote worship of a deity that had largely faded from memory? A pride demon/Dumat would just posses her, or would want her to spread worship of it, not some quasi-entity meant to represent it. Andraste worshipped the Avaar/Alamarri gods first, so what prompted her to switch beliefs? It's all very odd. Personally, if the Maker is just a spirit, a spirit of Faith would make much more sense.

 

Possibly to start a religion that would oppose worshipping things that are obviously NOT gods. Mythal knew *she* wasn't a god nor were any of the other Elven gods and probably knew the Tevinter gods weren't really gods either.

[RepHope]

That's right, we don't know but something, somewhere doesn't add up at all. But Corypuss doesn't strike me as the type of bro to make random **** up. He is way too confident in his godhood.

 

Well to be fair, he does make some stuff up.

 

I'm a god! The Old Gods are dead and the Maker never was!

 

*About to die* SAVE ME LORD DUMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT!!!!

 

And there's a lot of holes in his memory. What exactly happened to him? How did he get back from the Fade? Where the hell was he before the Wardens imprisoned him? Was he the one that corrupted Dumat? Where did the others go? The Architect has some serious memory problems of his own (or he was lying to conceal his identity).

 

But I think the Chant is truth with a heavy side of the Chantry's political bs. There's some truth at the core, perhaps more than any other religion besides the dwarves, but it's mired in crap you've got to shift through to find. Andraste was definitely more than a simple peasant girl who cold sing, that's for damn sure.

[Daerog]

 

 

And there's a lot of holes in his memory. What exactly happened to him? How did he get back from the Fade? Where the hell was he before the Wardens imprisoned him? Was he the one that corrupted Dumat? Where did the others go? The Architect has some serious memory problems of his own (or he was lying to conceal his identity).

 

 

Here's an idea of what may have happened between turning into darkspawn and rising to the surface. Although, it may not involve Cory, as it only talks about 3 and wasn't there seven Ancient Magisters?

 

Codex entry: A Different Darkspawn

[RepHope]

Possibly to start a religion that would oppose worshipping things that are obviously NOT gods. Mythal knew *she* wasn't a god nor were any of the other Elven gods and probably knew the Tevinter gods weren't really gods either.

 

That's a lot of work, and again why? What benefit would Mythal gain from that? Flemeth certainly felt no obligation to help. Why would Mythal help Andraste? Why wouldn't Andraste set herself up as a god instead, why put all that work into maintaining a false appearance, and then dying for it?

 

Mythal wants revenge. That's pretty clear. What you're suggesting doesn't really help her in that goal, if anything it's a very costly diversion. Mythal sacrifices everything just... to do what? I mean by the time Flemeth rolls around, Mythal is resigned to sulking in backwards woods. Not exactly the greatest starting point for revenge.

[The Night Haunter]

Here's an idea of what may have happened between turning into darkspawn and rising to the surface. Although, it may not involve Cory, as it only talks about 3 and wasn't there seven Ancient Magisters?

 

Codex entry: A Different Darkspawn

Considering Cory was Dumat's Archpriest, it seems likely there were 7 total Magisters who participated in the Fade Walk (1 for each God of Tevinter). I wouldn't be surprised if a few of them are still kicking. Cory is alive thanks to Warden interference, and the Architect no longer has his memory. I'd bet the Architect is Razikiel's Priest (Mystery!)

[Jandi]

That's a lot of work, and again why? What benefit would Mythal gain from that? Flemeth certainly felt no obligation to help. Why would Mythal help Andraste? Why wouldn't Andraste set herself up as a god instead, why put all that work into maintaining a false appearance, and then dying for it?

 

Mythal wants revenge. That's pretty clear. What you're suggesting doesn't really help her in that goal, if anything it's a very costly diversion. Mythal sacrifices everything just... to do what? I mean by the time Flemeth rolls around, Mythal is resigned to sulking in backwards woods. Not exactly the greatest starting point for revenge.

 

Ok, it all just hit me and I should make a whole new thread for this... which I will. Gimme a sec!

[RepHope]

Considering Cory was Dumat's Archpriest, it seems likely there were 7 total Magisters who participated in the Fade Walk (1 for each God of Tevinter). I wouldn't be surprised if a few of them are still kicking. Cory is alive thanks to Warden interference, and the Architect no longer has his memory. I'd bet the Architect is Razikiel's Priest (Mystery!)

 

Oh you're going to love this bit of irony. Archy was the High Priest of Urthemiel, you know, the Old God he corrupted into an Archdemon? H​e literally killed his god.​ I thought that was hilarious.

[Daerog]

Considering Cory was Dumat's Archpriest, it seems likely there were 7 total Magisters who participated in the Fade Walk (1 for each God of Tevinter). I wouldn't be surprised if a few of them are still kicking. Cory is alive thanks to Warden interference, and the Architect no longer has his memory. I'd bet the Architect is Razikiel's Priest (Mystery!)

 

 

Oh you're going to love this bit of irony. Archy was the High Priest of Urthemiel, you know, the Old God he corrupted into an Archdemon? H​e literally killed his god.​ I thought that was hilarious.

 

Right, looking at the second volume to WoT, it gives titles to the Magisters in the Chant. The High Priest of Beauty was also titled as "Architect of the Works of Beauty."

 

The High Priest of Mystery was also titled as "Augur of Mystery."

 

Other titles include: Conductor of the Choir of Silence (shortened to Conductor of Silence), Appraiser of Slavery, Watchman of Night, Forgewright of Fire, and Madman of Chaos.

 

"The New Cumberland Chant of Light" talks about how the high priest of Silence was the one who went to the other high priests and sparked the desire to even think about crossing the Fade as they did. First he went to the high priest of Beauty, who at first seemed to dismiss the high priest of Silence, but "the fire in the Conductor's heart ignited / Within the Architect a terrible flame. / And so he turned all the lesser priests and acolytes from the Temple of Beauty / To beseech counsel from his god."

 

Edit: Fun lore fact, the seven high priests of the Old Gods were also called the Magisters Sidereal.