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[RepHope]

Right, looking at the second volume to WoT, it gives titles to the Magisters in the Chant. The High Priest of Beauty was also titled as "Architect of the Works of Beauty."

 

The High Priest of Mystery was also titled as "Augur of Mystery."

 

Other titles include: Conductor of the Choir of Silence (shortened to Conductor of Silence), Appraiser of Slavery, Watchman of Night, Forgewright of Fire, and Madman of Chaos.

 

"The New Cumberland Chant of Light" talks about how the high priest of Silence was the one who went to the other high priests and sparked the desire to even think about crossing the Fade as they did. First he went to the high priest of Beauty, who at first seemed to dismiss the high priest of Silence, but "the fire in the Conductor's heart ignited / Within the Architect a terrible flame. / And so he turned all the lesser priests and acolytes from the Temple of Beauty / To beseech counsel from his god."

One of the number one things I'm excited about with going to Tevinter is learning more about ancient human history. Stuff like Pre-Andrastian Maker beliefs, Old God rituals and beliefs, relatively early Andrastian beliefs, and of course, Imperial Chantry beliefs. I'm kind of tired of elf ****, why can't humans get some cool stuff for once?

[Daerog]

Tevinter is the best (followed by Nevarra)!

[Lumix19]

It was Golden before they got there. The reason people say it was once Golden and then Black is not because the Ancient Magisters told them, it's because mages noticed the difference.

It still doesn't conflict with the narrative, the magisters brought Sin to Heaven, the light goes away. Cory says he saw darkness, but it probably became corrupt the instant they arrived to it.

That's an assumption. It's possible the city was black physically, even before they got there, but it only looked golden when the dream filter of the Fade was layered over it. Prior to physically entering the Fade no mage would have physically seen it. And the Fade is shaped by expectation so if they expected to see the Golden City that might have been what they saw.
Then perhaps the Blight struck and the narrative of the Magisters assaulting the City and bringing the Blight was taken up and the city started to look blackened.

[Daerog]

That's an assumption. It's possible the city was black physically, even before they got there, but it only looked golden when the dream filter of the Fade was layered over it. Prior to physically entering the Fade no mage would have physically seen it. And the Fade is shaped by expectation so if they expected to see the Golden City that might have been what they saw.
Then perhaps the Blight struck and the narrative of the Magisters assaulting the City and bringing the Blight was taken up and the city started to look blackened.

 

That's a fine theory, but my complaint lies in that nothing in universe has popped up to conflict with the Chant of Light. Only theories presented on the forums have. It just lessens the drama when they exposed the religions of the elves and dwarves like that and reduces (or possibly removes) their conflict with the Chant.

 

Also, the City is the only constant thing in the Fade. All mages have been able to see it and there is no evidence saying that a mage only started to see it when they were told about it. Even before the Magisters entered the Fade, the Golden City was known.

 

Edit: Supposedly, there is no variation to how people see the City, it is a constant, no matter who views it.

[Lumix19]

That's a fine theory, but my complaint lies in that nothing in universe has popped up to conflict with the Chant of Light. Only theories presented on the forums have. It just lessens the drama when they exposed the religions of the elves and dwarves like that and reduces (or possible removes) their conflict with the Chant.

Also, the City is the only constant thing in the Fade. All mages have been able to see it and there is no evidence saying that a mage only started to see it when they were told about it. Even before the Magisters entered the Fade, the Golden City was known.

"Did the others never return from the Black City? There is no record even of our names! We are vilified by legend. They spit on our deeds and claim we brought darkness into the world. We discovered the darkness. We claimed it as our own, let it permeate our being. If the others have not returned, they are lost. I am alone in my glory."

Corypheus' memories seem to indicate otherwise. That's the major contradiction in my opinion, that the Chant declares that the punishment for sin was the Blight but Corypheus directly states that they discovered the darkness, they didn't create it.

There's also no evidence stating that mages saw the city turn Black following the Magister's attempt to breach the Fade physically. One would expect that to be a pretty important event.

Edit: Supposedly, there is no variation to how people see the City, it is a constant, no matter who views it.

The City is also supposed to be equidistant from all points in the Fade yet when you physically enter it Solas notes that it is closer. Presumably the rules are relatively malleable.

[robertthebard]

But in this context, if the Fade wasn't a place where one went then surely it also wasn't a place where thing came out of? Spirits didn't come from somewhere, they just were. So if the Chant says that something came from the Fade then surely the Fade was already something that things came out of, meaning the Veil was already in place at that point.
 
To be more precise, the Fade as a concept didn't exist prior to the Veil being in place, therefore things coming out of the Fade happened after.

There's a flaw in your perception of the timeline here: The Veil was in place when the Chant was written. The Andrastian chant is only about 900 years old, give or take, at this point in the timeline.

[Jackums]

The Maker should, and likely will, remain ambiguous.

[Jandi]

There's a flaw in your perception of the timeline here: The Veil was in place when the Chant was written. The Andrastian chant is only about 900 years old, give or take, at this point in the timeline.

I never said nor indicated I thought anything else so I don't really get your point.

[azarhal]

 
Still, Andraste was a historical and public figure (married to a chief) who was known to be devout. First praying to the Lady of the Skies and other Alamarri/Avvar gods until she started praying to the Maker and became a prophet for the Maker. It doesn't seem to fit Flemeth, but who knows? Maybe Flemythal does believe in the Maker or at least approves of monotheistic religion.

 

Edit: Actually, wasn't Flemeth born way after Andraste? Since Mythal came to Flemeth, and it isn't said to be someone else who united with Mythal, it sounds like the whole Flemythal thing started way after Andraste.

 

Flemeth was born around Tower 0, so a good 500+ years after Andraste. That would require Mythal to have had an host prior to Flemeth, but her comment in DAI suggest otherwise.

 

And you know, after JoH, it's kinda weird that no spirits answered her when she prayed...that's probably Chantry's propaganda.

[VorexRyder]

The Maker should, and likely will, remain ambiguous.

The existence of an Absolute Maker/Creator Deity is irrelevant; however, said Maker directly influencing The Dragon Age Setting beyond the act of Creation would invalidate Free Will, since said Maker(as implied by Bioware) is absolute and infinite while every other being in Thedas is uncertain and limited. The Chant's version of The Maker, on the other hand, is actively contradicted by canon. At which point believing in The Chantry's Maker stops being Faith(belief without evidence) and becomes Delusion(belief despite strong evidence to the contrary).

[Addictress]

IDK, as a former Christian (now agnostic or non -religious) person, I find DA to be fascinating as frigging hell because of the various ways it both reflects and stretches the perceptions of actual religions.

Keep in mind that for many more conservative JudeoChristians, DA is already a bit forbidden or concerning because of its liberal exhibition of blood magic, let alone magic of any kind. So it already is deeply challenging to them.

Of course, to someone free of superstitions and who doesn't follow those rules of "absolutely do not look at magic whatsoever" then it's clear that Dragon Age intelligently treats the subject of magic in a fascinating way. Even more fascinating, I argue, than a lot of other fictional universes where magic is taken for granted and simply a de facto tool widespread, not inherently questioned and conceptualized as a contentious issue within the fictional world itself.

[Ashagar]

That would depend on what sort of conservative judo-Christians I would think given some of the oldest sects like Catholicism tended to view witchcraft as delusion as it would violate the natural laws created by god and the belief in magic as pagan superstition to be stomped out while protestant sects originally tended to have a bit of a obsession with the subject hence things like the Salem witch trials.

 

As for the maker himself, The southern chantry's maker certainly seems to conflict with the maker as believed in from pre-andestrian times from what little evidence we've seen. The southern chantry perhaps also conflicts with the maker to a point as viewed by other more minor andrestian sects and given the alterations to the chant might conflicted how Andreste herself saw the maker.

[VorexRyder]

The problem comes from the Chant's assertions on the origin of the Veil, the Golden City's owner, and both nature and cause of the Blight. This are very important and basic things that I don't see the Chantry altering from what it was originally said to what it is now, and they're all wrong.

 

Again, an absolute Creator of a balanced world can't interfere on the behalf of uncertain Creations unless it is to counter another absolute Entity without invalidating their agency. Unlike the Evanuris or the Avvar Animism, a Maker would gain nothing from worship and the situation after the First Blight was hardlybad enough that a Maker would need to intervene in order to preserve the world. Assuming the Maker isn't a flawed Creator like the Primordials(Greek Myth or Exalted Canon), his Creation should be self-sustaining in regards to how the whole thing works.

[Ashagar]

Well we don't know the origins of the golden city though it seems to me its unlikely to have anything to do with the elves.(seriously not everything has to been done by the elves, it could indeed always been there or even built by the ancestors of men before the veil by a unknown race now dead)

 

the chant doesn't claim the maker created the veil though some seem to think it does, he only is supposed to have created the fade and the physical world.

 

As for the first blight it was indeed caused by what the chantry said it was, at least in part. The seven magisters indeed breached the golden city and became tainted by either something they unleashed or by the act they used to breach the golden city(which given that Orliasian blood mage baroness managed to turn her self into a pride demon in awakening is possible), the golden city turned black and something threw them out of the now. black city then they sought out the old gods and corrupted one of them which became the first archdemon which then invaded the surface in the first blight.

[Fadedrifter]

First of all, please excuse my english as it's not my mother tongue.

 

My point in this it's that some kind of pre-Andrastiansm should have existed.  In fact, some knowledge of the Maker was there before Andraste.  Why would the Tevinter Magisters storm "the seat of THE god" at the old gods' request, if they never knew that this one and powerful entity ever existed?  That beign the case and since we all know that the Veil was a creation of Fen'harel, and as the Veil reflects what people think, the Black Citadel might be some kind of idea in the collective unconscious:the seat of an all-powerful being or the reflection of the idea of the fallen creature.

[LorenzEffect]

The very concept of the Maker is unfalsifiable. Although parts of the Chant can be disproven, none of it is strictly necessary to believe in the Maker. Secular ideas like the non-overlapping magisteria suggest that religions are necessarily unfalsifiable, which would mean that the Avvar spirit worship and Elven mythology aren't religions at all.

So it all comes down to how specific the definition of religion is, really.

[VorexRyder]

Well we don't know the origins of the golden city though it seems to me its unlikely to have anything to do with the elves.(seriously not everything has to been done by the elves, it could indeed always been there or even built by the ancestors of men before the veil by a unknown race now dead)

 

the chant doesn't claim the maker created the veil though some seem to think it does, he only is supposed to have created the fade and the physical world.

 

As for the first blight it was indeed caused by what the chantry said it was, at least in part. The seven magisters indeed breached the golden city and became tainted by either something they unleashed or by the act they used to breach the golden city(which given that Orliasian blood mage baroness managed to turn her self into a pride demon in awakening is possible), the golden city turned black and something threw them out of the now. black city then they sought out the old gods and corrupted one of them which became the first archdemon which then invaded the surface in the first blight.

In one of the very first conversation you have with Solas at Haven, he describes Elvhen cities as Golden & Floaty, we see that the Vir'Dirthara got stuck in the Fade, WoT V2 confirms that Arlathan was Golden and Floaty. The Evanuris where mucking about the Void and between Andruil's plague and Geldauran's (Forgotten One living in the Void) name taking the meaning of "Scary Disease" or "Bio-Terrorist", it's pretty clear that the Taint is the reason Solas felt he had no choice but to seal the Evanuris and create the Veil to hold them.

 

Evanuris can turn into Dragons, they allowed their "Chosen" to do so as well, Seven OGs with themes related to the Evanuris. The Magisters Sidereal didn't believe nor had they ever heard of, The Maker. The Mag Sids went to the Golden City to serve their Gods in person. The Evanuris enslaved their own people, and if Andruil not only being the Huntress butalso being the goddess of Sacrifice, who showed no problem with hunting humans and elves, then we can safely assume that the Evanuris were also pretty cool with blood magic. Everything Tevinter built, from their culture to their magic was influenced by the "Chosen of the Evanuris", who no doubt saw the Elves as traitors and the humans as pawns to release their bosses from their prison. Said prison is mentioned in Cole's banter to include a sealed off Eluvian and the OGs probably thought that Arlathan would either hold clues on the whereabouts of the Eva or the prison holding them instead, they probably didn't know that Arlathan had becomeall Tainte.

 

The Chant mentions that The Maker made Thedas and The Veil at the same time, as he was building Thedas he was also covering it with the Veil.

[Illegitimus]

The very concept of the Maker is unfalsifiable. Although parts of the Chant can be disproven, none of it is strictly necessary to believe in the Maker. Secular ideas like the non-overlapping magisteria suggest that religions are necessarily unfalsifiable, which would mean that the Avvar spirit worship and Elven mythology aren't religions at all.

So it all comes down to how specific the definition of religion is, really.

 

Avvar and Elven worship aren't falsifiable.  The fact that the things they worship actually exist has no bearing on whether someone can prove to a believer that they should or should not be worshiping them.  My Dalish huntress could have learned everything that was revealed about her gods in Inquisition and it would have made no difference to her conviction at all.  

[Jedi Master of Orion]

To be more precise, the Fade as a concept didn't exist prior to the Veil being in place, therefore things coming out of the Fade happened after.

 

Yes it did.

[Illegitimus]

Yes it did.

 

Uh-hunh.  As best as I can figure it, the differences between pre and post veil is prior to the veil magic could be done by any elf, and spirits (including what the Evanuris had become) could cross over under their own power without requiring a summoning or a weak spot.  

[cindercatz]

...Bioware has been showing in turn each current religion in Thedas other than Andrastianism (pseudo-Christianity/Judaism/Islam) to be false, while not delving much into the truth of that religion?

In each dlc a major religion is explained - the avvar gods are spirits, the Dwarven god(s) are giant rock monsters, the Elven gods are mages...

The only religion that seems to be left as possibly something beyond the world as it is are the old gods and Andrastianism, and pretty much no-one worships old gods any more, and it's implied they were just dragons of some sort.

Add to this that Bioware (well, David Gaider, I supposed he's no longer on the DA team) has stated that they'll never confirm or deny the Maker's existence and it reeks of them being afraid to challenge monotheistic church-based religion, really.

I'm not sure. I might be reading too much into it, I'm just interested to see if anyone shares my suspicion/concern.

Well, both things can't be entirely true. God is God is God. Pantheistic religions are really talking about non-omnipotent spirits and aspects of God or an abstraction of what they think God is like, anyway. Doesn't mean lesser deities don't exist, but they're not God any more than you or I. (Being a construct from God's consciousness does not make one the Godhead or any different from anyone else in that respect.) And in any given case, you may very well be talking about an antagonistic entity. An enemy. The enemy. The adversary. Whatever you want to call it. So no, it doesn't bother me. Your character can still believe whatever they believe as part of their design. Mine believe different things. But if they're going to delve into it at all, they can't all be right about everything, just as in the real world. You know, don't worship the angels above the God who made them and sent them. No, it doesn't bother me.

[cindercatz]

IDK, as a former Christian (now agnostic or non -religious) person, I find DA to be fascinating as frigging hell because of the various ways it both reflects and stretches the perceptions of actual religions.

Keep in mind that for many more conservative JudeoChristians, DA is already a bit forbidden or concerning because of its liberal exhibition of blood magic, let alone magic of any kind. So it already is deeply challenging to them.

Of course, to someone free of superstitions and who doesn't follow those rules of "absolutely do not look at magic whatsoever" then it's clear that Dragon Age intelligently treats the subject of magic in a fascinating way. Even more fascinating, I argue, than a lot of other fictional universes where magic is taken for granted and simply a de facto tool widespread, not inherently questioned and conceptualized as a contentious issue within the fictional world itself.

Or, to an actual Christian who understands all of it, I can see it and critique it and not be concerned about it in the least, just like I'm not concerned about other real religions or beliefs. Demons and spiritualism in fiction are not any more a challenge to faith than anything else out there. I look at all of it as entertaining fiction without the benefit of sufficient information. When you've encountered the real thing, it doesn't much matter what anybody says.

[SwobyJ]

Ugh.

The Chant doesn't say crap about the Veil being created by the Maker. It only acknowledges the Veil's existence.

The Chantry, I guess, assumes that the Veil is what is necessary to separate Thedas from the Beyond. Assumes.

The time before the Veil, Thedas and the Beyond were still different - just intertwined. Still different. Realms.

Demon and Spirit were often/always much more the same thing, before the Veil. After it, demons arose, duality.

The Chant doesn't speak of the Maker intentionally separating spirits from mortals. Again, assumptions. The spirits grew 'jealousy' of mortals, but this doesn't mean they were blocked off from them.

I'm not a Chant-lover but there's plenty of gaps in the verses (in words, in context, in history) that makes it not necessarily true that the Chant is 'wrong'.

It can even be that the Chant neglects so much elven lore because to go in that direction is to open up to the possibility of Evanuris worship, and that may be considered bad on the metaphysical scale by early Andrastans. Trying to orient towards the 'Maker' in all things, not the mistakes of old god-people.

[LorenzEffect]

Avvar and Elven worship aren't falsifiable.  The fact that the things they worship actually exist has no bearing on whether someone can prove to a believer that they should or should not be worshiping them.  My Dalish huntress could have learned everything that was revealed about her gods in Inquisition and it would have made no difference to her conviction at all.  

Elven mythology has already been falsified. While it's based on truth, it's not truth itself. The Evanuris are not gods.

Avvar worship could be falsified if the spirits failed to manifest the way they're supposed to.

[Wulfram]

Elven mythology has already been falsified. While it's based on truth, it's not truth itself. The Evanuris are not gods.

We haven't actually seen any compelling evidence that they're not gods IMO. I mean, they're quite different from how the Dalish remembered them, but that's not the same thing.

I mean, Solas basically says they're not gods, they're just extremely powerful and immortal beings. But that's just "to-may-to, to-mah-to", really. Its a semantic argument.