325 réponses à ce sujet

[Addictress]

Or, to an actual Christian who understands all of it, I can see it and critique it and not be concerned about it in the least, just like I'm not concerned about other real religions or beliefs. Demons and spiritualism in fiction are not any more a challenge to faith than anything else out there. I look at all of it as entertaining fiction without the benefit of sufficient information. When you've encountered the real thing, it doesn't much matter what anybody says.

Great for you, kudos. Doesn't mean the majority of others are as open minded as you.

[In Exile]

We haven't actually seen any compelling evidence that they're not gods IMO. I mean, they're quite different from how the Dalish remembered them, but that's not the same thing.

I mean, Solas basically says they're not gods, they're just extremely powerful and immortal beings. But that's just "to-may-to, to-mah-to", really. Its a semantic argument.

It's not really semantic. When people say "gods" now they don't just mean power. There's a notion of divinity that's inflected from Christianity's overarching influence.

Besides, all the elves were apparently immortal. That's not a distinction. They were more powerful mages, perhaps, but there's no indicator they were a different type of being.

It's a bit like the Avaar and their gods.

[Wulfram]

It's not really semantic. When people say "gods" now they don't just mean power. There's a notion of divinity that's inflected from Christianity's overarching influence.

But we still use "god" to refer to entities from non-christian religions. We apply it to everything from household gods that are far more humble than the Evanuris were/are to deified emperors and hero-cults that map very closely to the actual story of the Evanuris.

And of course the Creators were always considered by the Dalish to be gods in a "pagan" sense, not an omnipotent perfect christian one. They were limited, fallible beings that were ultimately tricked and sealed away.
 
To put it another way, I'd say the big news for a Dalish isn't the nature of the Evanuris, but their character. The reaction I'd expect from them isn't "My gods aren't gods!", its "My gods were jerks!".

Besides, all the elves were apparently immortal. That's not a distinction. They were more powerful mages, perhaps, but there's no indicator they were a different type of being.

It's a bit like the Avaar and their gods.

Its true that the elves were apparently all immortal, but it seems like the Evanuris were particularly unkillable - Mythal is still kicking around, and Solas had to seal away the rest of them. Though perhaps we'll learn that the other Elvhen were similarly unkillable.

[cindercatz]

Great for you, kudos. Doesn't mean the majority of others are as open minded as you.

I know quite a lot aren't, and quite a lot of good people lose their faith because that's what they think it means to be Christian, or they shun what they think being Christian means because of that association in their mind. I don't know why exactly you became agnostic, but it's important people have a voice that says otherwise. A lot of Christians are fearful of things they shouldn't be. Fear ye not. But so are vast multitudes of people of other faiths. And many people are fearful of Christianity or God directly because they just plain don't have a real understanding of either. I hope you find your faith again. All I can do is witness, that I've experienced things such that there is no question for me. But all it is is my witness. It's up to everyone else what they're open to and what they're not. God bless.

[AlanC9]

To put it another way, I'd say the big news for a Dalish isn't the nature of the Evanuris, but their character. The reaction I'd expect from them isn't "My gods aren't gods!", its "My gods were jerks!".

Would this even be news to, say, a Greek or a Norseman?

[Ashagar]

Or a Sumerian. Even some of the Egyptian gods could be jerks if  if far lawful than the Greek, Norse and Sumerian gods, especially the Sumerian gods who supposedly viewed humanity only as slaves to themselves and made the Greek gods look nice and stable in comparison. Come to think of it the Evanuris are a lot like the Sumerian gods in Behavior from what Little ancient elven sources we've seen.

[Illegitimus]

Elven mythology has already been falsified. While it's based on truth, it's not truth itself. The Evanuris are not gods.

 

Sure they are..  They are creatures of vast supernatural power who receive worship.  That's a god and my Dalish huntress isn't especially interested in what Fen-Harel, legendary trickster and enemy of the gods has to say about it.  So the bad guy told me that I shouldn't be worshipping my gods.  Well that's what he would be saying.  He's the bad guy.  And that some stories about the gods aren't true means no more to her than Heaven Can Wait or It's A Wonderful Life not being true means anything to a Christian.

 

 

 
To put it another way, I'd say the big news for a Dalish isn't the nature of the Evanuris, but their character. The reaction I'd expect from them isn't "My gods aren't gods!", its "My gods were jerks!".

 

 

Then again it's not like they don't already have tales of their gods being vengeful and petty.  

[Elfyoth]

I don't know about you but I think that Bioware will never actually tell us if the Maker existed. That what makes Dragon Age special.

As for the elven "gods" I hope that it wont turn Dragon Age into god fights etc, let us feel the mystery like in real life.

[Qis]

...Bioware has been showing in turn each current religion in Thedas other than Andrastianism (pseudo-Christianity/Judaism/Islam) to be false, while not delving much into the truth of that religion?

 

In each dlc a major religion is explained - the avvar gods are spirits, the Dwarven god(s) are giant rock monsters, the Elven gods are mages...

 

The only religion that seems to be left as possibly something beyond the world as it is are the old gods and Andrastianism, and pretty much no-one worships old gods any more, and it's implied they were just dragons of some sort.

 

Add to this that Bioware (well, David Gaider, I supposed he's no longer on the DA team) has stated that they'll never confirm or deny the Maker's existence and it reeks of them being afraid to challenge monotheistic church-based religion, really.

 

I'm not sure. I might be reading too much into it, I'm just interested to see if anyone shares my suspicion/concern.

 

In my opinion The Maker don't exist...The Maker and anything related never shown exist, not even a clue of existence. For me it is a clever way to "attack" the "monotheistic Abrahamic religion" if looking at it closely...

 

"The Maker left us" is just an excuse to cover up "The Maker don't exist", so if anyone want to seek evidence of this deity existence they won't find it because "The Maker left us..."

 

Scepticism succumb everything since DA:O...example

 

i. The Chantry don't know the location of the tomb of Andraste - so what they are bragging about Andraste to begin with when they don't even know where their prophet resting place? It was The Warden who find it.

ii. The Sacred Ash maybe chemical - as Oghren point out the mountain is strong with lyrium, so whatever related "magic/miracle" happen might be caused by lyrium

iii. Templar ability come from lyrium - no matter how they're muttering incantations and prayers, their power come from lyrium, not divine

iv. Fade creatures claim there is no Maker - some may argue that this just want to make people loose faith, but what for if the demons have no interest with what peoples believe in the first place?

 

There is no unexplainables happen in Dragon Age that could be an excuse for the existence of "God"...this game is simply supporting atheist

[Ashagar]

Other than there are six or seven Abrahamic religions not one, they have repeatly said said the maker represents faith, faith in anything be it religious or not isn't faith if you have concrete evidence it exists or doesn't because then its existence or non existence is a fact.

 

As for you points:

 

I. the chantry not knowing the location of the site of the ashes is not surpising given it was delberately hidden before any of the chantries existed. In fact if you look at the lore the first chantry was the Tevinter Chantry which later joined the newer Orlaisian chantry to avoid conflict. The Tevinter were the people they were trying to hide the ashes from.

 

II. Two Lyrium isn't known for its ability to heal, it boasts magic but has negative side effects on mages and templars especially in the long run.

 

III. a mute point that doesn't prove anything, why would a god that believes in free will intervene by directly granting power instead of allowing people to find their own methods to combat such as being touched by a faith spirit like the seekers are or taking lyrium.

 

IV. Not all fade spirits claim there is no maker, only nightmare, a fear demon and that one rage demon in origins did. The rest don't know wither the maker exists or not but they do know that the souls of the dead pass though the fade to someplace beyond.

 

There is nothing that proves or disproves the existence of the maker but many things that could be argued for in either direction.

[Qis]

To counter your counter arguments

 

i. It can be established that Chantry religion is just a made up by some peoples, only using some myth as their basis of faith, it have no real evidence to back up their premise, only assumption and conjecture. Andraste was not the one who establish the religion, she just a person who fight against the Tevinter, nothing indicate she have any relationship with the religion that being using her name. Her tomb hidden away from Tevinter have nothing to do with the Chantry, that is why the Chantry have no clue about it's existence. They even declare anyone who claim it exist as heretic, and never support any attempt to find it. The one who support the research is a noble woman who live in Redcliff, the Chantry itself NEVER give any support or approval. Sceptically, we can say the Chantry lie all the time.

 

ii. The Lyrium can give many effects, with some chemical additive, it might give healing effect. Like i said, the magic/miracle status of the ash can be viewed in sceptical way. That is the point.

 

iii. The way i see it, the Templars only BELIEVE they are doing God's work, while they never get any blessings or special divine gift for their devotion, because that simply don't exist. It is a strike toward Crusaders and Jihadists, the ones who believe doing God's work while they are just deluded. Consuming lyrium is like consuming drug, it is like indicating that being zealous in the religion is like taking drug, it will give you addiction but in the end it will destroy you.

 

iv. Spirits represent human good emotion, Demons represent human bad emotion. So one of good emotion is "believing the existence of higher power", that's "the Spirit of Faith". It doesn't matter what you believing, this spirit will act like what you believing, by means if you believe in The Maker, this spirit will act accordingly to your believe. Bad emotion is "not believing higher power", Demons represent this in similar way with the other. Remember that every different race have their own version and what they believe about The Fade, and not the same with what the Chantry tell you. But it is simply The Fade creatures act exactly like what everyone want to believe in.

 

In short, God don't exist in Dragon Age universe.

[LorenzEffect]

Or rather, there is no more reason to believe in the Maker than there is to believe in Bertrand Russell's celestial teapot. You can't prove that the Maker doesn't exist, but without any evidence that he does, then believing in him is just a matter of faith. Some in the Chantry are perfectly happy to believe in him despite this (just like real life faithful people), as they don't demand evidence to believe something.

It's all just belly-button gazing at the end of the day.

[Ashagar]

Faith never requires evidence, not just religious faith but faith in general. Faith is a belief, a idea which can be both weaker and stronger than anything in the physical universe and unlike what some may thin think faith is not necessarily made weaker by doubt but can be made stronger by it.

[AlanC9]

To counter your counter arguments
 
In short, God don't exist in Dragon Age universe.

Woukd you be willing to make the same claim about this universe? You could come up with the same evidence for both.

[SwobyJ]

In my opinion The Maker don't exist...The Maker and anything related never shown exist, not even a clue of existence. For me it is a clever way to "attack" the "monotheistic Abrahamic religion" if looking at it closely...

 

"The Maker left us" is just an excuse to cover up "The Maker don't exist", so if anyone want to seek evidence of this deity existence they won't find it because "The Maker left us..."

 

Scepticism succumb everything since DA:O...example

 

i. The Chantry don't know the location of the tomb of Andraste - so what they are bragging about Andraste to begin with when they don't even know where their prophet resting place? It was The Warden who find it.

ii. The Sacred Ash maybe chemical - as Oghren point out the mountain is strong with lyrium, so whatever related "magic/miracle" happen might be caused by lyrium

iii. Templar ability come from lyrium - no matter how they're muttering incantations and prayers, their power come from lyrium, not divine

iv. Fade creatures claim there is no Maker - some may argue that this just want to make people loose faith, but what for if the demons have no interest with what peoples believe in the first place?

 

There is no unexplainables happen in Dragon Age that could be an excuse for the existence of "God"...this game is simply supporting atheist

 

As an atheist I only have to say... sorta.

 

I consider it more of a theme and how the faithful have to keep faith if they want to be faithful (duh).

 

My main Quiz was a skeptic and only, well, 'inquisitive' (Solas Approves), but I don't think DAI was 'atheist' and I don't think future games will presume an 'atheist' truth.

 

-Well there WAS the ashes of Andraste, so there

-Lyrium isn't necessarily unrelated to the Maker. In fact its possibly highly connected to how he would work.

-Lyrium sings and its (blue) song can be the divine song of the Maker/Chant. If its less fun than people assumed, then whatever, doesn't disprove the Maker

-Spirits are either demons that deny the maker or spirits that just don't know. In such a changing realm, I'm not surprised its become a state that may not remember the Maker. In Thedas he just 'left', but in the Fade he may have outright removed his presence.

 

I get it. DAI sets up a theistic thing then chips it away with anti-Maker evidence after evidence. But I prefer to consider that just part of a theme, than a declaration that we're to doubt the Maker by default.

 

For all we know, DA4 will start with an anti-Maker thing and remake our understanding of how he actually may be a thing. The Chantry may have its politics and the Chant may have its holes of knowledge but this doesn't mean it came from nowhere but the imagination.

 

[Qis]

Woukd you be willing to make the same claim about this universe? You could come up with the same evidence for both.

 

In this world, there are unexplainable things that nwe can say "it's God's will" or "this is supernatural" or "this is miracle", in Dragon Age world everything is explained or atleast there are scepticism

 

There are many things that science can't explain, no matter how wise or intelligent you are, there are things that you can't explain, so you might say "this is beyond the scope of science", even atheist scientist must admit that.

 

peoples with religion, or religious scientist will say "ah...it's the work of God!"

 

 

Faith never requires evidence, not just religious faith but faith in general. Faith is a belief, a idea which can be both weaker and stronger than anything in the physical universe and unlike what some may thin think faith is not necessarily made weaker by doubt but can be made stronger by it.

 

True, faith never require evidence, but all faith have basis, you might agree or not agree with some faith or all faith for that matter, but peoples who believe in religion have basis of their belief. It is not come from nothing.

 

As example, in the Quran, Allah command to look at everything and think the logic behind creationism. It also challenge the Pagan about the logic of worshiping stones and woods. It challenge Christians and Jews about their own Holy Books and faith. By means Muslims have cause and reasons into believing Islam. Arabia was a place where many religions meet, Makkah was a trade center and center of all nearby religions, the Arabs are well versed in many religions, Islam come out challenging all beliefs there

 

How abut Christians? Generally, Christianity is about seeking salvation, Christians believe Jesus sacrifice himself on the cross to save all manknd from sin. Every Christians have reasons to believe that, no one is perfect isn't it? Everyone doing sins. Despite some scepticism about Jesus, there are basis of the real person existence, and not only Christians who believe in Jesus, Muslims too. It is something that cannot come out from nothing and then become belief system. There are many folkstories in the past, none become a faith, so to say Jesus is just a story is blatant accusation. All Christians, Jews and Muslims know where Jesus crucified, where is his tomb, where he come from and what he did.

 

Buddha looking at life, thinking, meditating, try to find an answer, and reaching conclusion that life is suffering. Buddhist find a way to end the cycle of suffering and try to reach Nirvana. This is understandable looking at India during Buddha time. There are social class and the difference between each class was too large. The royals and elites live in luxury, while common peoples are so poor and oppressed, Buddha himself was a prnce who shocked to see the reality of his own people.Buddhist have reasons to believe Buddha teachings.

 

But n Dragon age...

 

i. no one know the tomb and remain of the alleged prophet

ii. the existence of such relic denied and forgotten by the Chantry

iii. no one have a clue who Andraste was

iv. the miracle of her ash can be contested

v. there is an unknown cult who live nearby her tomb, they are so different than the rest of Andrastenians and no one have a clue about them

vi. there is no basis of this religion other than what the Chantry have established

 

There is no reason to believe a God who left everyone and doomed the world...but Andrasterians believe that because of what? It is simply POLITIC...everyone vs Tevinter/Mages. The Chantry originally created to gain support from the mass to against Tevinter Imperium. To counter this, Tevinter themselves establish their own Chantry, just for the sake of politic. But both of them have no clue about the very person they are worshiping and adore so much for thousands of years...and then they have another rival, the Qunari and Elves, the established religion used to gain support against these too.

 

By means, it just a made up religion by some elites, they are clever to use excuses to fool the mass who seek the truth by simply saying "The Maker left us..."

[9TailsFox]

Don't really care much, in real world we have no magic or gods it is just fictional characters. In Thedas magic is not magic it's real think, but gods we see no indication that some omnipotent being like Maker exist if he does it doesn't mater because we don't see him doing anything. Solas is immortal and powerful can turn people to stone at will, I wouldn't be surprised if we chop his head off and he wouldn't die. I can see why some people could call him a god, but Solas say he isn't god, so if god say he is not god, he isn't. And about Maker I don't think someone who created Thedas exist, but I wouldn't be surprised if collective mind/faith of people would manifest something in fade who we can call Maker like we see spirit take form of Divine, or if Leliana die spirit take form of her.

[Ashagar]

 

But n Dragon age...

 

i. no one know the tomb and remain of the alleged prophet

ii. the existence of such relic denied and forgotten by the Chantry

iii. no one have a clue who Andraste was

iv. the miracle of her ash can be contested

v. there is an unknown cult who live nearby her tomb, they are so different than the rest of Andrastenians and no one have a clue about them

vi. there is no basis of this religion other than what the Chantry have established

 

There is no reason to believe a God who left everyone and doomed the world...but Andrasterians believe that because of what? It is simply POLITIC...everyone vs Tevinter/Mages. The Chantry originally created to gain support from the mass to against Tevinter Imperium. To counter this, Tevinter themselves establish their own Chantry, just for the sake of politic. But both of them have no clue about the very person they are worshiping and adore so much for thousands of years...and then they have another rival, the Qunari and Elves, the established religion used to gain support against these too.

 

By means, it just a made up religion by some elites, they are clever to use excuses to fool the mass who seek the truth by simply saying "The Maker left us..."

 

 

But the thing to remember is the maker belief predates andrastianism by a great deal, something that was confirmed by the developer.

 

In fact Faith in the maker predates Andraste by thousands of years because its the same creator deity believed in by the ancient northern Neromenian tribes and that the later Tevinter Imperium still honored with a Festival for creating the world. Basically Andraste was attacking Tevinter in the name of their own god claiming they caused him to abandon the world.

 

Another issue with your idea is that the first chantry was formed in Tevinter not the other way around shortly after Andraste's death, it later merged into the southern chantry which was only formed after after the creation of the Orlaisian empire then split it broke again over religious and political issues.

[Qis]

What about the Elves? They existed before Tevinter. They have their own set of belief system. If the Elves are wrong in their belief, what makes the belief about The Maker is right?

 

Tevinter worshiping dragons/Old Gods, not The Maker.The Chantry claim that The Maker left the people after Tevinter worshiping dragons and that's the reason for the first Blight. But this turn out to be NOT TRUE, the Golden City already blackened before Tevinter Mages get into it.

 

Corypheus is the most ancient being existing and he directly involved in the matter, and he claim The Maker don't exist. And that what makes he do what he do, want to become a God.

 

Sorry to say, the whole The Maker and Andraste thing is too much similar with Christianity...Jesus was a Jew, the Roman who execute him, but later the Roman who use his name making a new religion called Christianity. While the religion called "Christianity" don't exist before that, there was only cults of Jesus spreading in Middle East with different set of belief. There are hundreds of Gospels, and the cult of Jesus are freely with their own activity untill the Roman establish Christianity and use it for politic. The word "Christ" itself is Greek, and not Jewish.

 

The same here, the belief of The Maker might be just a cult from a race like you mentioned, until it being established and later evolved. Then Andraste come into the picture, and the politicians using this to establish a new religion known as Andrasterianism. The existence of The Maker still not proven, it is just a belief copied on other and make official....plagiarism.

 

But the difference is Christianity have strong basis than Andrasterianism. All the thing related to Christianity you can find in Judea/Jerusalem/Israel ...but where you can find anything about Andrasterianism? No one have a clue about Andraste until The Warden found her tomb. Either she really have any relationship with The Maker is debatable, her own existence is debatable. For thousand of years the believers are believing a MYTH...and faith copied from somewhere....

[Ashagar]

The northern neromenian tribes having faith in the maker is true as is the Tevinter Imperium honoring him with a festival were both things that were confirmed, we should remember that the Northern neromenians became the Tevinter Imperium after they started worshiping the old gods who had forms of dragons.

 

However even if they turned to worshiping the old gods they still choose to honor the god they believed created the world which is likely where Andraste was introduced to the concept of the Maker as she was a Tevinter slave before she escaped. Its one of the few confirmed facts about her life outside of the whole holy war against Tevinter then getting betrayed and executed.

 

When it comes to anything Corypheus states we should remember that Corypheus often counterdicts his own statements like saying the golden city was already black but then turns around and boasts on how he walked the golden city. Then of course there is his break you with talking speech claiming the maker does not exist but then in his own private journal he doesn't claim the maker doesn't exist but is absent and that the people should have a present god that answers prayers.

[Qis]

The northern neromenian tribes having faith in the maker is true as is the Tevinter Imperium honoring him with a festival were both things that were confirmed, we should remember that the Northern neromenians became the Tevinter Imperium after they started worshiping the old gods who had forms of dragons.

 

However even if they turned to worshiping the old gods they still choose to honor the god they believed created the world which is likely where Andraste was introduced to the concept of the Maker as she was a Tevinter slave before she escaped. Its one of the few confirmed facts about her life outside of the whole holy war against Tevinter then getting betrayed and executed.

 

When it comes to anything Corypheus states we should remember that Corypheus often counterdicts his own statements like saying the golden city was already black but then turns around and boasts on how he walked the golden city. Then of course there is his break you with talking speech claiming the maker does not exist but then in his own private journal he doesn't claim the maker doesn't exist but is absent and that the people should have a present god that answers prayers.

 

In anyway, there is no evidence to support The Maker existence in the first place, is it not? So what is the evidence The Maker even exist?

 

If you ask any religious person in this real world, they can give you tons of evidence to support their belief, it is just you want to accept them as evidence or not.

 

In Dragon Age, no one bother to prove The Maker existence, they will simply say "The Maker left us...", that's no evidence of His existence.

 

Alright i give you an example, it is said there was someone name Tom living in an appartment, someone told you this, when you go to the appartment, you see there is no evidence whatsoever that someone even live there, it is abandoned, empty and old....you go back to that someone and he say "Oh, Tom have moved away...". In the town, only that person who told you about Tom, no one else know anything about Tom.....now this person named Tom really exist or that someone just made up a story about the apartment and Tom?

[Ashagar]

Of course all the ancient centers of pre-andrastian maker worship or simply honoring are A. in Tevinter which we won't go to until the next game or B in the ancient lands where the Neromenians left to enter the continent of Thadas which are unknown,

 

To use your example back that more like someone telling you about tom living in a apartment in a town far away that you never been to.

[AlanC9]

In this world, there are unexplainable things that nwe can say "it's God's will" or "this is supernatural" or "this is miracle",

There are? Like what? There are things we don't have much data on, but I'm not aware of any real evidence of miracles. Are you really saying we've got more inexplicable stuff in this world than they have in Thedas?

i. no one know the tomb and remain of the alleged prophet
ii. the existence of such relic denied and forgotten by the Chantry
iii. no one have a clue who Andraste was
iv. the miracle of her ash can be contested
v. there is an unknown cult who live nearby her tomb, they are so different than the rest of Andrastenians and no one have a clue about them
vi. there is no basis of this religion other than what the Chantry have established

How is this different from Christianity, again? Or Islam, or whatever?

[Qis]

There are? Like what? There are things we don't have much data on, but I'm not aware of any real evidence of miracles. Are you really saying we've got more inexplicable stuff in this world than they have in Thedas?



How is this different from Christianity, again? Or Islam, or whatever?

 

Don't pretend everything explainable by science, even Big Bang theory can be argued, "before Big Bang, what then?"

 

There are a lot of difference, i already explained, i don't bother to repeat. This thread is not about that at all, it is about Bioware attacking on religion but "afraid" to attack on "Abrahamic religion" in which i already point out that is not the case, Dragon Age is supporting atheism.

[AlanC9]

Don't pretend everything explainable by science, even Big Bang theory can be argued, "before Big Bang, what then?"

There's no "before." That's when time started.

And couldn't such questions be asked in Thedas?

There are a lot of difference, i already explained, i don't bother to repeat.

Your reasons didn't make sense . On that list you posted, points 3,4,and 6 are equally true of Christianity. Point 1 isn't applicable to Christianity, since there isn't supposed to be a tomb anymore, and points 2 and 5 have direct parallels in history.

This thread is not about that at all, it is about Bioware attacking on religion but "afraid" to attack on "Abrahamic religion" in which i already point out that is not the case, Dragon Age is supporting atheism.

They're not. They'd actually have to disprove Andrastianism to support atheism. The evidence for Andrastiansim is crap, sure, but so is the evidence for Christianity, and anyone who thinks that Christianity has been disproven merely by that fact is a fool.