325 réponses à ce sujet

[Qis]

There's no "before." That's when time started.

And couldn't such questions be asked in Thedas?

Your reasons didn't make sense . On that list you posted, points 3,4,and 6 are equally true of Christianity. Point 1 isn't applicable to Christianity, since there isn't supposed to be a tomb anymore, and points 2 and 5 have direct parallels in history.

They're not. They'd actually have to disprove Andrastianism to support atheism. The evidence for Andrastiansim is crap, sure, but so is the evidence for Christianity, and anyone who thinks that Christianity has been disproven merely by that fact is a fool.

 

 

Christianity cannot be disproven, there are books about Jesus, hundreds of Gospels, there even sites about the said person, there are archeological findings, there are efforts to make such findings, and not only Christians who believe the person named Jesus.

 

(I ask you, what is the logic of an Arab prophet talking about Jesus to Arabs/Muslims if the Arabs/Muslims at that era, 500 years after Jesus, don't already know about the person named Jesus?)

 

Not the same with Andrasterianism...there is no books talking about The Maker, no books about Andraste or written by Andraste, no archeological finding and no effort to make finding, any effort made are denied by the Chantry, the one who find archeological site regarding Andraste was The Warden during the 5th Blight.

[Illegitimus]

 

In this world, there are unexplainable things that nwe can say "it's God's will" or "this is supernatural" or "this is miracle", in Dragon Age world everything is explained or atleast there are scepticism

 

There are many things that science can't explain, no matter how wise or intelligent you are, there are things that you can't explain, so you might say "this is beyond the scope of science", even atheist scientist must admit that.

 

 

That is no more true of this world than it is of that of Thedas.  

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Tell me. Where is your maker now? Call him. Call down his wrath upon me. You cannot? Because he does not exist.

 

This. The Evanuris are real. The Titans & Paragons are real. The Old Gods are real. Fade spirits are real. Maker isn't.

 

You can actually make a case for worshiping the other beings as deities due to the fact they are real. You can only rely on faith when it comes to the Maker.

 

That automatically puts the other religions above the Chantry. The fact that the Chantry's god is based on faith is a failure in and of itself.

 

Being an Andrastian is like being a Jedi or a Sith...But you can't use the Force...That just sucks.

 

What's more, I think the Andrastian Chantry will get its reckoning in due time. I believe Gaider once said something along the lines of 'Andraste is based of Joan of Arc'.  If you know your history, you will know that people got a lot of things wrong about Joan of Arc.

 

http://www.history.c...out-joan-of-arc

 

I would not be surprised to learn that Andraste was unhinged in some way or was perhaps a mage (could even be a blood mage) or was an abomination, etc...

[SwobyJ]

This. The Evanuris are real. The Titans & Paragons are real. The Old Gods are real. Fade spirits are real. Maker isn't.

 

You can actually make a case for worshiping the other beings as deities due to the fact they are real. You can only rely on faith when it comes to the Maker.

 

That automatically puts the other religions above the Chantry. The fact that the Chantry's god is based on faith is a failure in and of itself.

 

Being an Andrastian is like being a Jedi or a Sith...But you can't use the Force...That just sucks.

 

Great thing there's spirits of Faith with omgawesomepowers.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

What about the Elves? They existed before Tevinter. They have their own set of belief system. If the Elves are wrong in their belief, what makes the belief about The Maker is right?

The elven religion actually has a creator deity in it, seen as even above the Creators and the Forgotten Ones whom were also created by that entity after he created the world and everything in it. Their religion has this entity being represented by the Sun, which coincidentally is also the symbol the Chantry uses to represent the Maker. 

[Andraste_Reborn]

Christianity cannot be disproven, there are books about Jesus, hundreds of Gospels, there even sites about the said person, there are archeological findings, there are efforts to make such findings, and not only Christians who believe the person named Jesus.

 

Proof that Jesus was based on a real historical person doesn't constitute proof of Christianity. While there are people who argue that he never existed (it's not like cults never spring up around things that don't exist) there are far more who think he probably existed and preached but wasn't the son of any god and didn't have any miraculous powers.

 

I'd say that the Chantry has more evidence behind it than any real world religion. For one thing, supernatural entities and powers definitely exist in Thedas, and this is disputed by no-one. For another, they have at least one relic that objectively works as described. (While there may be alternate explanations for that, it's still more than any religion on this planet has.)

[Qis]

Now there's the issue, is what Christians believe about Jesus is true or not? As you know there are many sects and denominations in Christianity. The religion do not become an official religion for the mass in Europe BEFORE Constantine. Like i said the religion was various of cults existing in Middle East untill Romans set things up and make what they set up as official. Trinity was a concept introduced hundred years after Jesus. What i am arguing above is not about what people believe about Jesus, but the basis of the religion is strong, unlike Andrasterianism.

 

How come The Chantry themselves don't know the final resting place of Andraste? So what basis they are preaching the peoples about Andraste when they say the final resting place and the remains are just a myth? They even admit it is a myth in DA:O.

[Madmoe77]

Now there's the issue, is what Christians believe about Jesus is true or not? As you know there are many sects and denominations in Christianity. The religion do not become an official religion for the mass in Europe BEFORE Constantine. Like i said the religion was various of cults existing in Middle East untill Romans set things up and make what they set up as official. Trinity was a concept introduced hundred years after Jesus. What i am arguing above is not about what people believe about Jesus, but the basis of the religion is strong, unlike Andrasterianism.

 

How come The Chantry themselves don't know the final resting place of Andraste? So what basis they are preaching the peoples about Andraste when they say the final resting place and the remains are just a myth? They even admit it is a myth in DA:O.

 

There is a two-part reasoning in not revealing Andraste's resting place. For one, there has been suggestion that those remains have a great power in them, such as the ashes in the sacred temple. The curative effect alone could cause a power in-balance; healing magic is more of a game mechanic and not something mages are hurling about. Secondly, I could easily see real world scenarios where knowing of such locations would cause much more injury to the institutional ideals of the religion, the faith needed to support it and the opposition of it's ideas in practice. (not suggesting in any way that such places exist in the real world. Only that we have places that are symbolic in great contention to their purposes. Some very important sites have been destroyed just to incite reaction and cause spiritual and psychological injury.) So revealing Andraste's resting place could easily be just another crypt-or the tipping point of everything established in game.

 

Some group in a Codex entry will get credit for thinking so far ahead about this or something.

 

This is a case where the looming question encourages the myth instead of unraveling it. Maybe we will see a version of Easter pop up in Thedas!       

[Treacherous J Slither]

I'd rather worship spirits, giant rock monsters, or mages, instead of something that only exists in my imagination.

The polytheistic religions of Thedas are the ones with real, tangible beings to worship.

Honestly I have no idea why Andrastism or whatever is so popular. It teaches that the Creator has abandoned us. The same guy that lets his wife be burned alive at the stake. Screw him.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Now there's the issue, is what Christians believe about Jesus is true or not? As you know there are many sects and denominations in Christianity. The religion do not become an official religion for the mass in Europe BEFORE Constantine. Like i said the religion was various of cults existing in Middle East untill Romans set things up and make what they set up as official. Trinity was a concept introduced hundred years after Jesus. What i am arguing above is not about what people believe about Jesus, but the basis of the religion is strong, unlike Andrasterianism.

How come The Chantry themselves don't know the final resting place of Andraste? So what basis they are preaching the peoples about Andraste when they say the final resting place and the remains are just a myth? They even admit it is a myth in DA:O.

What Christians believe is incorrect.

The whole messiah thing was created by the Jewish people. It contains a prophecy. A prophecy that has yet to be fulfilled. Jesus didn't fulfill the prophecy so they don't believe he's the messiah.

They created the whole thing in the first place. They know more about it than anyone else and if they say Jesus ain't the one then guess what? He ain't the one.

[Aren]

Proof that Jesus was based on a real historical person doesn't constitute proof of Christianity. While there are people who argue that he never existed (it's not like cults never spring up around things that don't exist) there are far more who think he probably existed and preached but wasn't the son of any god and didn't have any miraculous powers.

 

I'd say that the Chantry has more evidence behind it than any real world religion. For one thing, supernatural entities and powers definitely exist in Thedas, and this is disputed by no-one. For another, they have at least one relic that objectively works as described. (While there may be alternate explanations for that, it's still more than any religion on this planet has.)

As it is in this world there are plenty of mysteries related to saints and others kind of miracles unexplained related to the christianity ,the most rare and intreasting among them are heavily examined by the Congregation for the Causes of Saints.

 

So what the Andrastianism has compared to that?

An Urn who heal in a world with every sort of magic,or a city in the fade that could be related with  a completely different story?

[Ashagar]

I'd rather worship spirits, giant rock monsters, or mages, instead of something that only exists in my imagination.

The polytheistic religions of Thedas are the ones with real, tangible beings to worship.

Honestly I have no idea why Andrastism or whatever is so popular. It teaches that the Creator has abandoned us. The same guy that lets his wife be burned alive at the stake. Screw him.

 

Mind you its only southern chantry Andrastism that says Andraste was the maker's bride, something the older Tevinter Andrastiansim rejected stating that she was only his prophet and a mage to boot.

 

Still things like Andrastianism are about bringing the maker back by being good and charitable, singing his praises across the world and going to the maker's side while the polytheistic religions are more about reward while one is still alive.

 

To me I am most interested in when we go to Tevinter is finding out about preandrastian maker beliefs beyond the little we know about the Northern Neromenian tribes believing he existed and created the world while the later Tevinter Imperium honoring him with a Festival and associated him with the golden city. 

 

This is the part of the world that was the heart of ancient maker belief long before Andraste's barbarian fore bearers even came out of the distant west and if any place has written information and likely ruins with info dealing with the ancient maker cult in Thedas it would be Tevinter. It would be most interesting to see how it contrasts with modern andrastian beliefs.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Mind you its only southern chantry Andrastism that says Andraste was the maker's bride, something the older Tevinter Andrastiansim rejected stating that she was only his prophet and a mage to boot.

Still things like Andrastianism are about bringing the maker back by being good and charitable, singing his praises across the world and going to the maker's side while the polytheistic religions are more about reward while one is still alive.

To me I am most interested in when we go to Tevinter is finding out about preandrastian maker beliefs beyond the little we know about the Northern Neromenian tribes believing he existed and created the world while the later Tevinter Imperium honoring him with a Festival and associated him with the golden city.

This is the part of the world that was the heart of ancient maker belief long before Andraste's barbarian fore bearers even came out of the distant west and if any place has written information and likely ruins with info dealing with the ancient maker cult in Thedas it would be Tevinter. It would be most interesting to see how it contrasts with modern andrastian beliefs.

I too am interested in seeing Tevinter.

Hopefully I can buy a ton of slaves. Only to pull a Denaerys >: ]

[Illegitimus]

 

As it is in this world there are plenty of mysteries related to saints and others kind of miracles unexplained related to the christianity ,the most rare and intreasting among them are heavily examined by the Congregation for the Causes of Saints.

 

So what the Andrastianism has compared to that?

An Urn who heal in a world with every sort of magic,or a city in the fade that could be related with  a completely different story?

 

 

They have the same tradition of miracles associated with holy relics, people who will credit their blessed medallions with helping defeat the walking dead, and of course the "Herald of Andraste".  They don't have the plethora of saints associated with Catholicism, but those are just associated with Catholicism.  Other flavours of Christianity regard that as a relic of paganism.  Matters are complicated by the objective existence of spirits of religious faith that respond to the prayers of the faithful...and have only been shown as responding to Andrastian faith.  

[AlanC9]

Not the same with Andrasterianism...there is no books talking about The Maker, no books about Andraste or written by Andraste, no archeological finding and no effort to make finding, any effort made are denied by the Chantry, the one who find archeological site regarding Andraste was The Warden during the 5th Blight.

This is just nonsense. Genitivi was looking for the Ashes long before the Warden came along, and he's in the Chantry. The Chantry has a whole arm dedicated to such research; remember Sister Justine. And where on Earth did you get the idea that there are no books about Andraste? We have many excerpts from them in the Codex. Andraste didn't write any books herself, but neither did Jesus.

You seem to have this weird need to just make stuff up whenever the evidence doesn't support your position.

[AlanC9]

How come The Chantry themselves don't know the final resting place of Andraste? So what basis they are preaching the peoples about Andraste when they say the final resting place and the remains are just a myth? They even admit it is a myth in DA:O.

What does not knowing the final resting place have to do with anything? The existence or, as it happens, non-existence of the Holy Grail wasn't relevant to Christianity.

[Qis]

This is just nonsense. Genitivi was looking for the Ashes long before the Warden came along, and he's in the Chantry. The Chantry has a whole arm dedicated to such research; remember Sister Justine. And where on Earth did you get the idea that there are no books about Andraste? We have many excerpts from them in the Codex. Andraste didn't write any books herself, but neither did Jesus.

You seem to have this weird need to just make stuff up whenever the evidence doesn't support your position.

 

Genitivy research don't supported by the Chantry but a noble woman who live in Redcliffe, and that noble woman only support it because she believe the urn is the only cure for her husband. EVERYONE said she's only chasing a myth, by means no one believe the urn is even real.

 

Sister Justine herself is a sceptic, she even doubt the most holy relic is authentic, look at her dialogue. She don't believe anythig anymore because there are so much fake relics around. She do believe the urn exist but don't expect much.

 

What does not knowing the final resting place have to do with anything? The existence or, as it happens, non-existence of the Holy Grail wasn't relevant to Christianity.

 

There is Jesus tomb, Holy Sepulchure, holy books and relics related to Jesus...all these are strong basis to believe there was a person named Jesus who doing stuff in Judea 2000 years ago. Either you believe Christianity faith, or Muslim faith, or cults related to Jesus is another matter, the fact is the real person exist.

 

Holy Grail is of course a myth related to King Arthur story, And King Arthur is a myth and legend. The Holy Grail is not a part of Christian religion, it's a part of a myth of King Arthur.

[Ashagar]

The good sister did recognize however the authentically of the artifact brought to her in origins after examining it and was shocked because of how many fake relics and artifacts are floating about so I guess there are a at least few artifacts that aren't fake allowing for the identification of other artifacts as frauds or real.

[Matriarch]

It's a bit Eurocentric but I think you are ignoring that the flaws of the Andrastian Chantry have been made pretty clear, which did include blatant censorship and historical revisionism. It's also a bit subjective and philosophical, because the Enuvaris at one point actually were immortal, and certainly powerful enough to be worshiped as deities, even if they weren't divine in origin. The Chant of Light is also shrouded in mystery because while there are basic elements that are true - the Magisters did storm the Golden City and Andraste was a real person - the metaphysical elements at most remain vague. Their story of how the Blight came about doesn't fit the actual account of Corypheus, who was literally there when it all happened, and there's still no definitive evidence the Maker does or doesn't exist. Historians still disagree on whether Andraste was literally the Bride of the Maker or just a very powerful mage - hence the South's split from Tevinter's Chantry- so I wouldn't say Andrastianism is being proven as any more "true" than other religions. For all intents and purposes, the "elven gods" did exist. They simply weren't "gods" in the sense that we'd imagine them. So I think there's a lot more to be considered when analyzing this.

 

Good point well made!

 

I just wanted to add that not only the Evanuris were immortal, but all elves, at one point. What made them mortal was the physical separation of the Fade from the real world as we know it now, caused by none other than our latest revelation, Solas! 

 

Keep up the constructive arguments! 

[AlanC9]

Genitivy research don't supported by the Chantry but a noble woman who live in Redcliffe, and that noble woman only support it because she believe the urn is the only cure for her husband. EVERYONE said she's only chasing a myth, by means no one believe the urn is even real.

Right. The Chantry didn't believe that Genitivi had any chance of finding the thing, if it had ever even existed. Turns out they were wrong. But that doesn't mean anything at all for Andrastianism, which isn't about whether the Ashes do or don't exist.

Sister Justine herself is a sceptic, she even doubt the most holy relic is authentic, look at her dialogue. She don't believe anythig anymore because there are so much fake relics around. She do believe the urn exist but don't expect much.

Yep. That just shows she's sensible. If she didn't think there was any chance that real relics existed, her job would be pointless. But she doesn't think that.

There is Jesus tomb, Holy Sepulchure, holy books and relics related to Jesus...all these are strong basis to believe there was a person named Jesus who doing stuff in Judea 2000 years ago. Either you believe Christianity faith, or Muslim faith, or cults related to Jesus is another matter, the fact is the real person exist.

Again, yes, but Andraste is also a known historical fact in exactly the same sense. The Tevinter Imperium really did lose control of the south to her forces.

Holy Grail is of course a myth related to King Arthur story, And King Arthur is a myth and legend. The Holy Grail is not a part of Christian religion, it's a part of a myth of King Arthur.

You have no idea what the Holy Grail was supposed to be, do you? Look it up.

[Qis]

I am done arguing with the one who love to argue for the sake of arguing. To argue with you is not my intention anyway....

 

But i say this, from DA:O to DA:I, don't see any proof of The Maker existence or any clue toward any truth about The Maker, Andraste and the Chantry religion.

 

For me, this game is based on atheist minded writers who write with atheist point of view about religion

 

This game is not pro-religion in anyway since DA:O

[Matriarch]

This game is not pro-religion in anyway since DA:O

 

Why should it be, anyway? ...

[Qis]

Why should it be, anyway? ...

 

Because reasons...?

[SwobyJ]

I am done arguing with the one who love to argue for the sake of arguing. To argue with you is not my intention anyway....

 

But i say this, from DA:O to DA:I, don't see any proof of The Maker existence or any clue toward any truth about The Maker, Andraste and the Chantry religion.

 

For me, this game is based on atheist minded writers who write with atheist point of view about religion

 

This game is not pro-religion in anyway since DA:O

 

I laugh at this since DAI was deliberately the religious-view game of the series. Like by their own explanation.

 

Andraste was a person. She was the person Tevinter was fighting. Again. SHE WAS. THE PERSON. TEVINTER. WAS FIGHTING.

 

Stories about her may or may not be exaggerated. Stories about her may or may not be divine in the sense the Chantry explains. But we're allowed to believe. What we learn in the Fade is the Fade, which is all about trickery.

[Iakus]

 

Holy Grail is of course a myth related to King Arthur story, And King Arthur is a myth and legend. The Holy Grail is not a part of Christian religion, it's a part of a myth of King Arthur.