150 réponses à ce sujet

[Dutch's Ghost]

I hope not. I don't like things shoehorned in just for progressiveness.

[mickey111]

what?

[Dutch's Ghost]

what?

Wot?

[mickey111]

who?

[Broganisity]

If there's anything I don't like, its a character who contributes nothing but is meant to seem important. Krem didn't really do much but people go on that they're an important character. . .they aren't. At all.

S/he's like that templar lady who sorta stands around. . .I mean- who is she anyways? Does she even -do- anything? I don't even remember our blacksmith's name let alone the bartender lady, the apothecary (I never even -went- to him once during my playthrough), Not to mention your former staff (Quartermaster, Bartender, ETC) then got replaced and made insignificant  early on as well. They were made to seem semi important if you interacted with them, but then they weren't. At all. Just background flavor.

Imagine if Joker was just the pilot and not a fleshed out character who we got to truly interact with. That's about what Krem and all those other characters were to the Inquisitor.

So if Bioware includes some other character like Krem or any of these characters? Make them useful or significant in some way other than being a number.

[Vortex13]

I hope not, I would like to meet interesting aliens in ME:A not: "MY DARK PAST/DADDY ISSUES!" or social issue # 673 characters. Don't worry though, I'm all inclusive. I don't want to see any human characters of any sexuality take the place of an 'alien' alien.

I would take the so-called 'exposition dump' characters like (ME 2) Legion over characters like Krem, Miranda or Alistar any day.

[Majestic Jazz]

We will see. David Gaider, an openly gay person, was the lead writer on Dragon Age so perhaps some of his personal influence came across in DA. Mass Effect is different and is more about philisophical conflict like organic life vs sythetic life whereas DA deals a lot about social issues such as elf racism and such.

[capn233]

I don't have any issues with Krem.  Just a minor character who you interact with a few times.  The only thing I can fault Krem for was never getting around to helping Bull with manziers.

[PlatonicWaffles]

As long as them being trans, of non-heterosexual orientations or having a disability isn't their character entirely and they don't exist solely to tick off a box to wave around in the air "hey, look we're inclusive!", then I have no objections.

 

If there was a trans woman soldier for example who brought it up on the side but she still had a character beyond that, ie she has trust problems like Jack (AFAIK), then I'd be fine with that.

[Indigenous]

I do like things shoehorned in just for progressiveness because the reaction these things get is hilarious.

 

As long as there are differences in the world there always will be people who will hate those differences. Krem was a character that was transgender. I have no idea what the anger is over this one character, if they made the majority of Thedas' citizens transgender then you might have an argument but just ONE person...

 

 

 

If there's anything I don't like, its a character who contributes nothing but is meant to seem important. Krem didn't really do much but people go on that they're an important character. . .they aren't. At all.

S/he's

It's kinda obvious why you don't like Krem.

 

Krem was an optional character, so optional that your decision on an optional side quest could kill him as a side effect not even directly. That's how important a character he was.

[O'Voutie O'Rooney]

If they do, please let them 1) have some valid reason for the character's existence other than as appeasement of progressives (or any other interest group) and 2) do something with the issue being brought up beyond appealing to platitudes (whether liberal or conservative) like Iron Bull's "He is a man" comment. That simplistic claim severely damaged my opinion of Iron Bull's intelligence. (And, no, I don't think the opposite answer "Krem is a woman" would be adequate either--see above regarding conservative and/or liberal platitudes).

[Broganisity]

It's kinda obvious why you don't like Krem.

Krem was an optional character-

I place it that way simply because the issue means nothing to me and putting it this way appeases all but the most callous zealots on both sides of the whole social argument. Some say he, some say she. I don't care so I pick the least objectionable option.

 

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What I care about characters that are meant/claimed/supposed to mean something but, in the end, do not.

You think I hate Krem, whereas I am only disappointed; I was disappointed at how limited Krem's role was in the game as I thought that, as Bull's Second, that S/he was an interesting character and that most of the conversation they had was about 'Oh I ran away from Tevinter because I wanted to be a man'. I liked the line of 'I suppose my father always knew' as it was a well done line. Bringing up Blood Magic was an interesting exchange with Krem as well as it reveals something about their character.

But it all ended there and I found it lacking. Bull tries to introduce you to the Chargers as if to say 'hey, these guys are pretty cool', and that too was lacking. I hear things \were added in Trespasser (Something about Cole playing cupid for Krem?) but I have yet to get there to see it for myself. Perhaps Trespasser added more interaction and cutscenes with the rest of your supporting cast as well: the apothecary, the blacksmith, Dagna, Et cetera. I do not know, but that is what I would want: your support characters being made more notable for who they are rather than what they are. Too much focus was placed on the Companions and Advisors, and too little on the rest of your supporting cast.

--------------

With this said, imagine if Joker was added just because he was crippled. Imagine that the majority of his dialogue was about his brittle bones. Imagine how bare bones (no pun intended) a character Joker would be if he was not 'Joker'. No Jokes, no banter, no extended interaction. Joker is a supporting character as far as that term goes in The Shepard Trilogy's cast, and he is a well-loved character with multiple layers. Now, Mass Effect had the advantage of a continuous cast to build onto characters, but you cannot rely on sequels alone: A character must be able to stand for themselves in each and every rendition of themselves be it in one story or multiple.

[WarBaby2]

Sure, and maybe this time we can make him/her/it a real character, not a walking sob-story cliche...inclusiveness, yea right.

[DuskWanderer]

I hope not. It would be great if BioWARE focused on writing good characters, not just the fad of the day progressivist nonsense. 

[Sartoz]

                                                                                                    <<<<<<<<<<()>>>>>>>>>>

 

What for?  Leave Krem and sundry in Thedas.

[Former_Fiend]

I think they should write whatever characters they want to write. If that includes explicitly transgendered individuals, then sure, I'm all for it.

 

I've said this a few times, but I think the suggestion that the only reason they would want to include a trans character, or a gay character, or a character of an ethnicity they hadn't previously included is to be PC and meet a quota is troubling to me. It either speaks to a lack of imagination or an ingrained bigotry. 

[diaspora2k5]

It's over 100 years into the future, why the hell wouldn't there be inclusiveness?

[Broganisity]

I think they should write whatever characters they want to write. If that includes explicitly transgendered individuals, then sure, I'm all for it.

 

I've said this a few times, but I think the suggestion that the only reason they would want to include a trans character, or a gay character, or a character of an ethnicity they hadn't previously included is to be PC and meet a quota is troubling to me. It either speaks to a lack of imagination or an ingrained bigotry. 

Agreed, most people think on quotas and less on the quality of the character themselves. Just look at the community for the Super Smash Bros community and their constant babbling about 'character slots' and 'franchise quotas'.

[daveliam]

I place it that way simply because the issue means nothing to me and putting it this way appeases all but the most callous zealots on both sides of the whole social argument. Some say he, some say she. I don't care so I pick the least objectionable option.

 

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What I care about characters that are meant/claimed/supposed to mean something but, in the end, do not.

You think I hate Krem, whereas I am only disappointed; I was disappointed at how limited Krem's role was in the game as I thought that, as Bull's Second, that S/he was an interesting character and that most of the conversation they had was about 'Oh I ran away from Tevinter because I wanted to be a man'. I liked the line of 'I suppose my father always knew' as it was a well done line. Bringing up Blood Magic was an interesting exchange with Krem as well as it reveals something about their character.

But it all ended there and I found it lacking. Bull tries to introduce you to the Chargers as if to say 'hey, these guys are pretty cool', and that too was lacking. I hear things \were added in Trespasser (Something about Cole playing cupid for Krem?) but I have yet to get there to see it for myself. Perhaps Trespasser added more interaction and cutscenes with the rest of your supporting cast as well: the apothecary, the blacksmith, Dagna, Et cetera. I do not know, but that is what I would want: your support characters being made more notable for who they are rather than what they are. Too much focus was placed on the Companions and Advisors, and too little on the rest of your supporting cast.

--------------

With this said, imagine if Joker was added just because he was crippled. Imagine that the majority of his dialogue was about his brittle bones. Imagine how bare bones (no pun intended) a character Joker would be if he was not 'Joker'. No Jokes, no banter, no extended interaction. Joker is a supporting character as far as that term goes in The Shepard Trilogy's cast, and he is a well-loved character with multiple layers. Now, Mass Effect had the advantage of a continuous cast to build onto characters, but you cannot rely on sequels alone: A character must be able to stand for themselves in each and every rendition of themselves be it in one story or multiple.

 

This analogy is not accurate.  Joker is a major NPC. He's more in-line with a "Cullen" type, than a "Krem" type.  Of course Joker's more deeply established as a character than Krem is.  They are two totally different types of characters.  Krem is more akin to Gabby or Donnelly.

 

Also, it's really hyperbolic to suggest that "the majority of his dialogue" was about his gender identity.  There are only two dialogue trees where it's even mentioned.  Both are optional and neither lasts more than two minutes. 

[Indigenous]

I place it that way simply because the issue means nothing to me and putting it this way appeases all but the most callous zealots on both sides of the whole social argument. Some say he, some say she. I don't care so I pick the least objectionable option.

 

-------------------

What I care about characters that are meant/claimed/supposed to mean something but, in the end, do not.

You think I hate Krem, whereas I am only disappointed; I was disappointed at how limited Krem's role was in the game as I thought that, as Bull's Second, that S/he was an interesting character and that most of the conversation they had was about 'Oh I ran away from Tevinter because I wanted to be a man'. I liked the line of 'I suppose my father always knew' as it was a well done line. Bringing up Blood Magic was an interesting exchange with Krem as well as it reveals something about their character.

But it all ended there and I found it lacking. Bull tries to introduce you to the Chargers as if to say 'hey, these guys are pretty cool', and that too was lacking. I hear things \were added in Trespasser (Something about Cole playing cupid for Krem?) but I have yet to get there to see it for myself. Perhaps Trespasser added more interaction and cutscenes with the rest of your supporting cast as well: the apothecary, the blacksmith, Dagna, Et cetera. I do not know, but that is what I would want: your support characters being made more notable for who they are rather than what they are. Too much focus was placed on the Companions and Advisors, and too little on the rest of your supporting cast.

--------------

With this said, imagine if Joker was added just because he was crippled. Imagine that the majority of his dialogue was about his brittle bones. Imagine how bare bones (no pun intended) a character Joker would be if he was not 'Joker'. No Jokes, no banter, no extended interaction. Joker is a supporting character as far as that term goes in The Shepard Trilogy's cast, and he is a well-loved character with multiple layers. Now, Mass Effect had the advantage of a continuous cast to build onto characters, but you cannot rely on sequels alone: A character must be able to stand for themselves in each and every rendition of themselves be it in one story or multiple.

Oh ok but it reads like She he.

 

He is the only trans gendered character in all of Thedas that we know of (I think). He has a conversation about being trans gendered. Crazy.

 

I don't think you hate him. I used to think like you. 'Progressiveness for progressive sake is bad! Adding minor minority characters just to prove a point is wrong because, because... quality and stuff'. I used to think like you until I realised how stupid those thoughts were. You should question the idea that an optional trans gendered character cannot talk about his experiences being trans gendered, and if he wanted to, nothing else in a game. A game where he would probably have less to say if he wasn't.

 

Joker was a supporting character you could control and was an essential part of the trilogy. I don't see the similarities with Krem at all, except that they are both arguably minorities? Was that what you were saying?

 

To me your arguments would make sense if he was the Iron Bull or Dragon Age Joker. But he isn't. Think about it you seem like you are capable of rational thought, internet person. Your problem with Krem isn't really based on a solid foundation of reason, unless you are trans phobic, it is irrational.

[diaspora2k5]

Oh ok but it reads like She he.

 

He is the only trans gendered character in all of Thedas that we know of (I think). He has a conversation about being trans gendered. Crazy.

 

I don't think you hate him. I used to think like you. 'Progressiveness for progressive sake is bad! Adding minor characters just to prove a point is wrong because, because... quality and stuff'. I used to think like you until I realised how stupid those thoughts were. You should question the idea that an optional trans gendered character cannot talk about his experiences being trans gendered, and if he wanted to, nothing else in a game. A game where he would probably have less to say if he wasn't.

 

Joker was a supporting character you could control and was an essential part of the trilogy. I don't see the similarities with Krem at all, except that they are both arguably minorities? Was that what you were saying?

 

To me your arguments would make sense if he was the Iron Bull or Dragon Age Joker. But he isn't. Think about it. Your problem with Krem isn't really a problem about Krem unless you are trans phobic it is irrational.

Maeveris in Tevinter, and Serendipity the prostitute in DA2.

[daveliam]

Maeveris in Tevinter, and Serendipity the prostitute in DA2.

 

Actually, Serendipity was supposed to be a drag queen, not trans.  But, yeah, Maevaris is definitely another trans character and she's in DA: I, so Krem's not the only trans character.

[Jaquio]

We will see. David Gaider, an openly gay person, was the lead writer on Dragon Age so perhaps some of his personal influence came across in DA. Mass Effect is different and is more about philisophical conflict like organic life vs sythetic life whereas DA deals a lot about social issues such as elf racism and such.

 

Just wanted to argue this point.  Krem was written by Patrick Weekes, who is on record saying that writing Krem was a rewarding and influential experience.  It was Weekes' push, not Gaider's.  Of course Weekes is gone from ME now, being the new lead in DA.

 

I don't really have an opinion about Krem aside from having issue with Weekes chickening out and not letting you say anything negative about Krem.  It would have been more of a role playing experience to have the option to be insulting or dismissive towards Krem and then suffer the ire of Iron Bull.  Railroading the player down a specific path that you find appropriate is cowardly from a writing standpoint.

[SwiftMustache]

Krem wasn't well written, at all. That's why I would opposed another character of the kind. If he was well written then... Yeah why not.

[Former_Fiend]

Actually, Serendipity was supposed to be a drag queen, not trans.  But, yeah, Maevaris is definitely another trans character and she's in DA: I, so Krem's not the only trans character.

 

I was under the impression that Serendipity was trans - if not particularly passable- , and it was the trans prostitutes in DAO that were the "drag queens".