150 réponses à ce sujet

[SardaukarElite]

Krem's role was about being Bull's second in command, everything else was a minor part of the character. I replayed Inq recently and if you don't go looking for it the gender identity thing comes up once briefly in a lengthy conversation and you don't even have to acknowledge it. I would say that it being dropped into that conversation was awkward and unnatural but that whole conversation was like reading a shopping list of character traits and backstories.

 

Could it be better? Sure. But I'm not sure the desire to be progressive is the underlying issue here.

[SmilesJA]

Hopefully it will someone with more depth than Krem (and I like Krem.)

[daveliam]

I was under the impression that Serendipity was trans - if not particularly passable- , and it was the trans prostitutes in DAO that were the "drag queens".

 

I'm pretty sure that it was Serendipity.  The devs came out and said so in response to the fact that people were upset about the 'trans character' being a joke.  And their response was that she wasn't actually trans and was meant to be a drag queen (hence the deep masculine voice).  But they also recognized that it was an easy mistake to make, especially with the bugged dialogue in the DLC.

[Broganisity]

 'Progressiveness for progressive sake is bad! Adding minor minority characters just to prove a point is wrong because, because... quality and stuff'

To those mentioning it I will admit that the comparison to Joker is lackluster and a more fitting to compare him/her to Kelly Chambers (at best) or Gabby/Donnel/uh, the tech support guys (at the most likely). On this regard alone I apologize and concede the point that Krem's significance to the story is far less than I was claiming.

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But those support characters were still better written that Krem was, who should have been on their level of quality. My main point is and always will be that the quality of Bioware's recent support characters was not as great as it could of been for the level of character that they were supposed to be.

 

Krem is not my main argument but a single piece of the overall point I am attempting to make so in that regard I am slightly off-topic (though I think we can all say that, in regards to the actual topic, inclusiveness for the sake of inclusivenessisity-yes-thats-not-a-real-word-ha-ha is silly.).

What was the name of that first Quartermaster that you have in Inquisition? Tyranus? Tetnis?(looking it up) Teythes? (found it) Threnn? I did not remember, because they get replaced and relegated to wandering around Skyhold even if they survive. A character who would seem like they are a pretty important individual, relative to the main cast, is made irrelevant regardless of if they live or die. The same goes for that Templar lady, the Apothecary, the Magic. . .monster body part collector I forget her title (its that bad), the bartender. . .They're all replaced after the Mage/Templar incident is solved (which has had its share of writing quality topics in and of itself).

[Former_Fiend]

I'm pretty sure that it was Serendipity.  The devs came out and said so in response to the fact that people were upset about the 'trans character' being a joke.  And their response was that she wasn't actually trans and was meant to be a drag queen (hence the deep masculine voice).  But they also recognized that it was an easy mistake to make, especially with the bugged dialogue in the DLC.

 

That checks out with the wiki. Guess it covers both her and the ones in DAO, then. 

[Former_Fiend]

Whoops, double post. 

[SlottsMachine]

I love to rag about doing things just to tick a box on a list as much as the next person, but tbh having a very secondary side character that is trans isn't a big deal. Personally I didn't much care for him but having him included made a lot of people happy. So it wouldn't surprise if BioWare did something similar.

[Panda]

Krem would have existed in the game even without being transgender and he wouldn't had any larger part. I'm not sure if people are familiar.. but games often have these things called NPCs. Some NPCs have major roles, some minor and that scale between is vast. Krem's existence in the game is being second-in-command of Chargers and give Iron Bull's character more dimension/debth. As NPC he's somewhat same level as Dagna I'd say. What comes to being transgender, I find it character trait that Patrick Weekes wanted to do and it's function seem to be both inclusive and broaden Qunari's perception of gender.

[9TailsFox]

It's over 100 years into the future, why the hell wouldn't there be inclusiveness?

[Br3admax]

Krem would have existed in the game even without being transgender and he wouldn't had any larger part. I'm not sure if people are familiar.. but games often have these things called NPCs. Some NPCs have major roles, some minor and that scale between is vast. Krem's existence in the game is being second-in-command of Chargers and give Iron Bull's character more dimension/debth. As NPC he's somewhat same level as Dagna I'd say. What comes to being transgender, I find it character trait that Patrick Weekes wanted to do and it's function seem to be both inclusive and broaden Qunari's perception of gender.

So now that we all agree Krem's entire role in DA:I was to be a mouthpiece and a plot device instead of a character, can we have the next trans person in a BioWare game be, you know, an actual character? Think that's what the OP, and definitely others, is asking for. Being a support character, instead of support, isn't an excuse for being as lively as scaffolding. 

[Panda]

So now that we all agree Krem's entire role in DA:I was to be a mouthpiece and a plot device instead of a character, can we have the next trans person in a BioWare game be, you know, an actual character? Think that's what the OP, and definitely others, is asking for. Being a support character, instead of support, isn't an excuse for being as lively as scaffolding. 

 

Isn't that what characters are, especially those who are rather minor? I doubt he was less an character than Dagna that I already compared him for.

 

Only thing I see as negative about Krem was the actual dialogue of him being trans.. it seemed quite akward and out of place for me. I'd rather him being trans come up during discussion about his backstory.

[DuskWanderer]

Isn't that what characters are, especially those who are rather minor? I doubt he was less an character than Dagna that I already compared him for.

 

Only thing I see as negative about Krem was the actual dialogue of him being trans.. it seemed quite akward and out of place for me. I'd rather him being trans come up during discussion about his backstory.

 

Even major characters are mouthpieces for the plot. The problem was that it was done very poorly and for no apparent reason other than to have it. And then when it's called "inspiring", it's a spit in the face to the people who truly do amazing things. 

[Br3admax]

Isn't that what characters are, especially those who are rather minor? I doubt he was less an character than Dagna that I already compared him for.

 

Only thing I see as negative about Krem was the actual dialogue of him being trans.. it seemed quite akward and out of place for me. I'd rather him being trans come up during discussion about his backstory.

No. Dagna is not comparable to Krem. Dagna has been in two games now, has an extensive backstory, and while she is the dwarf arcanist, her character extends beyond that. Krem's character outside of "Tevinter is bad," is minimal. It's legit disgusting. 

 

And Krem's dialogue about him being trans is fine, because while it's forced, it's literally the only thing I remember him/her/whatever saying. Krem is boring as ****, and I don't like boring characters, regardless of who they are or how important. 

Even major characters are mouthpieces for the plot. The problem was that it was done very poorly and for no apparent reason other than to have it. And then when it's called "inspiring", it's a spit in the face to the people who truly do amazing things. 

When I say mouthpiece, I mean for the author. Take Kreia from KotOR II. An obvious mouthpiece for Avellon on his views of concepts in the Star Wars universe. 

[AutumnWitch]

For goodness sake, just LET IT GO.

 

The world is full of all types, colours and gender persuasions. If BW's inclusion of some of them in their games is causing you so much grief I suggest you no longer play their games.

 

*SMH*

[Queen Skadi]

We will see. David Gaider, an openly gay person

 

That is interesting because most of the Dragon Age writing seems like it was written to appeal mostly to women, a lot of Gaider's writing feels like it was written by a gay man, however when I pointed this out in the past people called me a misogynist and claimed there is no difference between the writing of people of different genders or sexualities, but it is true because I could feel these things before I even knew Dragon Age had a mostly female writing staff and the lead writer was gay.

 

Not saying this is a bad thing but with so many game developers getting bashed for creating content that appeals to straight men despite them being straight men themselves it just urks me, the problem is not straight men not catering to the demands of feminists, the problem is that there arent enough females creating content for themselves and people who share their tastes.

[Indigenous]

But those support characters were still better written that Krem was, who should have been on their level of quality. My main point is and always will be that the quality of Bioware's recent support characters was not as great as it could of been for the level of character that they were supposed to be.

It's weird because you have a sense of humor but you are still wrong about Krem.

 

I can't argue this new point about support characters as your low standard of writing may be another persons high standard, whereas your high standard may be what I am sitting on right now. However, I will say that my definition of a support character would be a list filled with those in the 'Inquisitors Circle'. I think krem is purely there to be a part of Iron Bulls story and was made to fill an additional purpose. 

 

Threnn could die and as you alluded to, following Biowares tradition, most characters that can die have next to no role after the choice. In Threnn's case I assume it is because they would have had to do more work which would be creating a replacement for Threnn then allowing for the fact that Threnn may live. I don't think it has much to with quality I think you are arguing for quantity in this case. You want more conversation not 'better', as 'better' conversations between you and Threnn will still result in him saying next to nothing after he escapes death. I also want more but I don't think Threnn has as much haters as Krem or Dorian.

 

inclusiveness for the sake of inclusivenessisity-yes-thats-not-a-real-word-ha-ha is silly.

 

As I said, I believed the same thing once. I also could not expand on this point. This point of view has no solid foundation of reason. Why is it silly? Why is purposely diversifying a fictional culture silly? You don't have a problem with Bioware filling a quota of fictional minorities. Well, maybe you do but that view is hardly as common as the one that spawned this thread. Ask yourself why a mixed group of various different races of people is silly, while a group featuring solely one type like white men is not. I don't believe either is silly. What I have learned is that we are hardwired to discriminate based on our differences.

 

 

Even major characters are mouthpieces for the plot. The problem was that it was done very poorly and for no apparent reason other than to have it. And then when it's called "inspiring", it's a spit in the face to the people who truly do amazing things. 

 

Yes it could have been nice if Krem was the first npc in a Bioware game to use his trans gendered powers to beat corypheus with the Inquisitor only being able to cheer from the sidelines but then he would be more than what he was meant to be. I think people are looking at him wrong. He is not a trans gender character that happens to be Iron Bulls second in command. He is Irons Bulls second in command who also happens to be trans gendered. Being trans gendered is not his super power.

[Panda]

Even major characters are mouthpieces for the plot. The problem was that it was done very poorly and for no apparent reason other than to have it. And then when it's called "inspiring", it's a spit in the face to the people who truly do amazing things. 

 

I don't know how character being trans would be done for no other reason than have it in the game though. I mean it's character trait, does there need to be reason?

 

No. Dagna is not comparable to Krem. Dagna has been in two games now, has an extensive backstory, and while she is the dwarf arcanist, her character extends beyond that. Krem's character outside of "Tevinter is bad," is minimal. It's legit disgusting. 

 

And Krem's dialogue about him being trans is fine, because while it's forced, it's literally the only thing I remember him/her/whatever saying. Krem is boring as ****, and I don't like boring characters, regardless of who they are or how important. 

When I say mouthpiece, I mean for the author. Take Kreia from KotOR II. An obvious mouthpiece for Avellon on his views of concepts in the Star Wars universe. 

 

Dagna has been two games with minor role both. I simply think Krem's backstory and role was as good as character in minor NPC role that is not related to questions can have. Also I didn't pick his transdialogue in the game (I have youtubed it), since it was akward and out of place, other than that Krem chatted with me about Iron Bull and chargers. His role is clearly beyond him being trans, even without any transdialogue he would have worked. Him being boring is opinion, I don't find him boring.

 

I can see transdialogue part being mouthpiece of author, but again that's what I didn't care about his character anyways.

[78stonewobble]

It's over 100 years into the future, why the hell wouldn't there be inclusiveness?

 

In regards to transgenderedness?

 

I presume that, in the mass effect universe, they can allready change the mind to fit the body or body to fit the mind, if one so desires, so they would be exceedingly rare and only exist, from discovering the mismatch til it's fixed. 

 

Now crossdressers... that might an idea... 

[Sartoz]

 Snip

the problem is not straight men not catering to the demands of feminists, the problem is that there arent enough females creating content for themselves and people who share their tastes.

 

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Eh.. looking at the New York Best Sellers list, I see plenty of female writers.

[78stonewobble]

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Eh.. looking at the New York Best Sellers list, I see plenty of female writers.

 

Quite off topic... but the complaints aren't about books, but games. 

 

... 

 

I think Queen Skadi brought up a reasonable point tho... At which point does "inclusiveness" (here meant in the sense of EVERYTHING) mean that it's too big for one game... and maybe we should have 2 or more games (or atleast DLC).

 

Just as examples here:

 

DLC of Krem's story and adventures (depth people are asking for).

Mass effect Andromeda hot wheels or something ... which is all vehicular exploration and combat, instead of having a new mako in me:a (not a serious suggestion, but an example). 

[Han Yolo]

I don't know how character being trans would be done for no other reason than have it in the game though. I mean it's character trait, does there need to be reason?

 

this

[Sartoz]

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I by a game for its theme.

 

RTS, RPG, Simulators (space, aircraft), Strategy (wars), Historical Empire building.... etc. I don't look at the box to see if the games contains political quotas such as colour, race, gender, alien, tough guys, nerds, bikini clad females or what have you.

 

Frankly, if the game "feels right" I tend to buy it.

 

What I don't get is the constant sexual this or gender that.  This game for instance, which I enjoyed immensily:

 

https://en.wikipedia...ap_Brothers.PNG

 

has no gender but I bet some will complain anyway.

 

 

[Helios969]

I realize this may seem cold but if I'm putting together a list of humans to begin anew in another galaxy it's going to be chiefly comprised of doctors, engineers, soldiers, and people with survival skills...and as best as I can discern heterosexuals probably with a population imbalance skewed toward woman and younger generations...and as genetically diverse as I can arrange.  A few exceptions would need to be made for vital roles, so unless your transgendered individual is the foremost expert in one of those vital roles, he/she is being left behind.  Survival of the species takes precedence over social and political correctness.  Bioware could certainly take this route, but it would come across as awfully contrived.  I don't know how large this ark is, but I would venture to say we'd need at least 1000 mating pairs (10000 would be better) for humankind to survive in Andromeda...and we'll be sharing space with the other races.

[RVallant]

We will see. David Gaider, an openly gay person, was the lead writer on Dragon Age so perhaps some of his personal influence came across in DA. Mass Effect is different and is more about philisophical conflict like organic life vs sythetic life whereas DA deals a lot about social issues such as elf racism and such.

 

Never quite went into the realm of 'dealing' with it and was more of a 'soapbox'. 

 

DA:O dealt with situations a touch better by putting you in the middle of an incident/event and forcing you to take sides (yes, even the 'wrong' side) and that was much more inclusive and had more of an impact than having some character preaching at you. 

 

I'll give you two examples;

 

1) The City Elf Origin - The gang-rape of brides where you could and did go on a roaring rampage of revenge and could just about side with the rapists in the end.

 

2) The dealings of regicide and fratricide with the Dwarven politics, in multiple instances, often forcing people to consider whether the methods were right or the ends justified the means. Harrowmont and Belin were a big talking point even after the event and even for non-Dwarf characters.

 

The DA:I approach would have been to make a city elf and explain in-depth as to why "rape is wrong, mmkay?" or something akin to that. 

 

So yeah, I can see why some people are like 'oh ffs.' about the whole issue, it isn't necessarily a case of "I hate XXX cos I'm a backwards caveman" but more of a "This isn't done particularly well, nor is it interesting because you're soapboxing rather than getting me invested into the situation."

[Former_Fiend]

In regards to transgenderedness?

 

I presume that, in the mass effect universe, they can allready change the mind to fit the body or body to fit the mind, if one so desires, so they would be exceedingly rare and only exist, from discovering the mismatch til it's fixed. 

 

Now crossdressers... that might an idea... 

 

You know, this reminded me of a conversation I had a while back. Some context.

 

Paizo is a tabletop game publisher that produces the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game system; an alternative to Dungeons and Dragons. For each of their character classes, they have an "iconic" character that is meant to represent the ideal of that class and so when you see that character in artwork, you know what class is being shown. These iconics do have some degree of backstory and character to them, but not a whole lot.

 

About a year ago, they debuted a whole new batch of iconics for their Advanced Class Guide. The iconic shaman, Shardra, was a male to female transgendered dwarf, who was designed and written by Crystal Frasier, a Paizo employee who happens to be a transgender woman, herself.

 

It caught a lot of people's attention that Shardra's method of transitioning was rather similar to the real world method of hormone therapy, despite the fact that magic to switch genders instantly and perfectly was established to exist in Pathfinder for some time before Shardra's introduction. When Crystal was asked about this, she explained that she felt easy, magical fixes like that trivialized what trans individuals go through in the real world, and she didn't want to do that with Shardra's story.

 

That kind of thinking isn't uncommon in fiction. The reason AIDS, cancer, and other series diseases haven't been completely cured in the Marvel and DC universes, despite the super geniuses that can bend the laws of physics to their will who inhabit those worlds, is because the publishers don't want to trivialize serious issues in real life.

 

Point being, that if Bioware were to decide to include an explicitly transgender person in Mass Effect, it might behoove them not to make the transitioning process as simple as some fans think it would be with the advanced medical technology. In creating what some might assume is either a scientific eventuality or otherwise, a utopian future for their target audience, they could instead end up alienating the very people they hoped would identify with this character.