150 réponses à ce sujet

[Queen Skadi]

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Eh.. looking at the New York Best Sellers list, I see plenty of female writers.

 

In the context of video games there are far more male developers than female ones which is why you get more games that appeal to males

[Panda]

In the context of video games there are far more male developers than female ones which is why you get more games that appeal to males

 

Which is quite problem, especially taken accord why it is so that there isn't lot of female devs around.

[78stonewobble]

You know, this reminded me of a conversation I had a while back. Some context.

 

Paizo is a tabletop game publisher that produces the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game system; an alternative to Dungeons and Dragons. For each of their character classes, they have an "iconic" character that is meant to represent the ideal of that class and so when you see that character in artwork, you know what class is being shown. These iconics do have some degree of backstory and character to them, but not a whole lot.

 

About a year ago, they debuted a whole new batch of iconics for their Advanced Class Guide. The iconic shaman, Shardra, was a male to female transgendered dwarf, who was designed and written by Crystal Frasier, a Paizo employee who happens to be a transgender woman, herself.

 

It caught a lot of people's attention that Shardra's method of transitioning was rather similar to the real world method of hormone therapy, despite the fact that magic to switch genders instantly and perfectly was established to exist in Pathfinder for some time before Shardra's introduction. When Crystal was asked about this, she explained that she felt easy, magical fixes like that trivialized what trans individuals go through in the real world, and she didn't want to do that with Shardra's story.

 

That kind of thinking isn't uncommon in fiction. The reason AIDS, cancer, and other series diseases haven't been completely cured in the Marvel and DC universes, despite the super geniuses that can bend the laws of physics to their will who inhabit those worlds, is because the publishers don't want to trivialize serious issues in real life.

 

Point being, that if Bioware were to decide to include an explicitly transgender person in Mass Effect, it might behoove them not to make the transitioning process as simple as some fans think it would be with the advanced medical technology. In creating what some might assume is either a scientific eventuality or otherwise, a utopian future for their target audience, they could instead end up alienating the very people they hoped would identify with this character.

 

While a good point. I don't understand how one would think it trivializes serious issues in real life since well eg. the mass effect universe isn't real life and real life isn't the mass effect universe. If anything I think it inspires us of something to aim for. 

 

The federation in star trek was nigh utopian and they created other examples to deal with serious issues or time traveled to where it was an issue ... 

 

Besides... I presume the problems in being transgendered, aren't the "technical" problems tied to transgenderness itself, but more universal issues of predjudice, alienation, selfworth, selfdoubt, selvconfidence and what not, which you can deal with in any number of ways and from any number of "causes".

[BabyPuncher]

Which is quite problem, especially taken accord why it is so that there isn't lot of female devs around.

 

I've heard this several times from you now, and it's getting increasingly annoying. It seems to me that your train of thought here is that every occupation, hobby, and field of interest is obligated to have an equal mix other of men and women, otherwise, it's 'sexist.' Which is flatly lazy and weak reasoning.

 

Do you anything else to say here? Any actual reasoning to justify why exactly it's a problem for people interested in computers to generally be male and strippers to generally be female? Is there any actual thought going on or is just a kneejerk response?
 

[Panda]

I've heard this several times from you, and it's getting increasingly annoying. It seems to me that your train of thought here is that every occupation, hobby, and field of interest is obligated to have an equal mix other of men and women, otherwise, it's 'sexist.' Which is flatly lazy and weak reasoning.

 

Do you anything else to say here? Any actual reasoning to justify why exactly it's a problem for people interested in computers to generally be male and strippers to generally be female? Is there any actual thought going on or is just a kneejerk response?
 

 

Lol

[BabyPuncher]

Right, I didn't think so.

[BabyPuncher]

I think they should write whatever characters they want to write. If that includes explicitly transgendered individuals, then sure, I'm all for it.

 

I've said this a few times, but I think the suggestion that the only reason they would want to include a trans character, or a gay character, or a character of an ethnicity they hadn't previously included is to be PC and meet a quota is troubling to me. It either speaks to a lack of imagination or an ingrained bigotry. 

 

Tell me, what precisely do you mean by 'bigotry'?
 

[DuskWanderer]

In the context of video games there are far more male developers than female ones which is why you get more games that appeal to males

 

More than likely, more gamers are male. Thus, they must right to the audience.

[DuskWanderer]

Tell me, what precisely do you mean by 'bigotry'?
 

 I think she's trying to say anyone who calls out shameless pandering for what it is, is a bad person.

[Aesa]

For goodness sake, just LET IT GO.

 

The world is full of all types, colours and gender persuasions. If BW's inclusion of some of them in their games is causing you so much grief I suggest you no longer play their games.

 

*SMH*

 

Yes, exactly, thank you!

 

To those who don't want trans/gay/whatever characters in the game just to be the token trans/gay/whatever character: I understand. Neither do I. I think that kind of defeats the purpose, you know, not writing them as characters who feel like real people.

 

I don't think Krem was like that though. He was a minor character so obviously he's not going to be as fleshed out as the major ones, but there was a lot more to him than just "I"m transgender" if you actually took the time to talk to him. I enjoyed the camaraderie between him and The Iron Bull, and through Krem you got to learn more about Bull's past, beliefs and personality. You also got to learn more about the Tevinter Imperium, which is always a good thing to me. Plus, I just liked him. He's loyal, dependable, and has a great sense of humor. 

 

To those who don't want trans (or insert sexual orientation, race, etc here) characters included in games solely because you don't want to be around them: You are living in the past. Grow up, open your mind, and educate yourself. Meet new people, especially people who make you uncomfortable and challenge your beliefs. Hey, maybe one day you'll develop a little empathy for those who aren't exactly like you. 

 

"Inclusiveness for inclusiveness' sake" is a poor argument against including trans or gay characters, or any other minority. Some people happen to be transgender. Some people happen to be gay. Some people are black, brown, yellow, white, blue. Characters are people and they should be diverse. 

 

Get over it. Stop being entitled babies. If it upsets you that much, don't buy the game. BW has stated numerous times they will not cater to people like you just because you're the majority. If you now want to make shallow business arguments, go ahead.... But maybe you should email them to EA's money men instead. I'm sure they totally care what you have to say about it.

[Queen Skadi]

More than likely, more gamers are male. Thus, they must right to the audience.

 

Both statistics feed each other, I am sure if the video game medium started out as a female dominated industry then you would have more developers and gamers who are female.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

BioWare has a giant cast of supporting characters from all of their games who have little or no impact on the story. It's kind of weird to see people going to great lengths to justify why they hate Krem in particular because "Krem was so badly written." It's this one magical character who's writing was so bad that it justifies them being singled out, despite the fact that, objectively, there's only one characteristic that distinguished Krem from 99% of the other supporting characters, and it wasn't a dramatic difference in the quality of writing or dialogue.

 

But either way, I don't care. Even if for some reason I didn't like Krem, it's one character out of a massive cast, and I can't see the point of expending so much energy hating on one character.

[DuskWanderer]

 

Yes, exactly, thank you!

 

To those who don't want trans/gay/whatever characters in the game just to be the token trans/gay/whatever character: I understand. Neither do I. I think that kind of defeats the purpose, you know, not writing them as characters who feel like real people.

 

I don't think Krem was like that though. He was a minor character so obviously he's not going to be as fleshed out as the major ones, but there was a lot more to him than just "I"m transgender" if you actually took the time to talk to him. I enjoyed the camaraderie between him and The Iron Bull, and through Krem you got to learn more about Bull's past, beliefs and personality. You also got to learn more about the Tevinter Imperium, which is always a good thing to me. Plus, I just liked him. He's loyal, dependable, and has a great sense of humor. 

 

To those who don't want trans (or insert sexual orientation, race, etc here) characters included in games solely because you don't want to be around them: You are living in the past. Grow up, open your mind, and educate yourself. Meet new people, especially people who make you uncomfortable and challenge your beliefs. Hey, maybe one day you'll develop a little empathy for those who aren't exactly like you. 

 

"Inclusiveness for inclusiveness' sake" is a poor argument against including trans or gay characters, or any other minority. Some people happen to be transgender. Some people happen to be gay. Some people are black, brown, yellow, white, blue. Characters are people and they should be diverse. 

 

Get over it. Stop being entitled babies. If it upsets you that much, don't buy the game. BW has stated numerous times they will not cater to people like you just because you're the majority. If you now want to make shallow business arguments, go ahead.... But maybe you should email them to EA's money men instead. I'm sure they totally care what you have to say about it.

 

Your hostility towards the majority is quite palpable. I can understand that you only want people to think a certain way, no one likes to have their theories challenged. But honestly, I feel the whole thing is a delusion. I think you should actually learn what diversity is: Of opinion. Not of color. 

 

But I doubt it. One day, maybe you'll get over your manufactured outrage. 

[Aesa]

Your hostility towards the majority is quite palpable. I can understand that you only want people to think a certain way, no one likes to have their theories challenged. But honestly, I feel the whole thing is a delusion. I think you should actually learn what diversity is: Of opinion. Not of color. 

 

But I doubt it. One day, maybe you'll get over your manufactured outrage. 

 

Ahh, well, I can't say I didn't expect some passive aggressive, dismissive, straw men replies from BSN. Indeed, I would have been quite surprised to have received none! It's clear you didn't understand what I wrote. Probably because you didn't take the time to--or perhaps you simply didn't read it. Good chat though!

[DuskWanderer]

Ahh, well, I can't say I didn't expect some passive aggressive, dismissive, straw men replies from BSN. Indeed, I would have been quite surprised to have received none! It's clear you didn't understand what I wrote, probably because you didn't take the time to...or perhaps you simply didn't read it. Good chat though!

 

Oh, I do understand. You can't stand the concept that people don't accept delusions as fact. 

[Panda]

More than likely, more gamers are male. Thus, they must right to the audience.

 

Barely, it's almost half and half.

[dreamgazer]

If an "inclusive" character emerges organically, I don't care. Krem was borderline in that regard.

Transgender characters emerging organically in a futuristic, technologically-advanced environment such as this is a substantial problem, though, both for scientific and narrative introduction reasons. There would have to be a reason for them being trans, and the player would only become aware of that if the topic was brought up, which already shines an unnecessary spotlight on it. Dragon Age can (barely) get away with it. Mass Effect should really leave it alone.

[Br3admax]

Barely, it's almost half and half.

 

No, it's really not. When you include things such as app games on phones, then sure, the amount of men and women who purchase games are about the same. When you compare who's a repeat customer, and in certain demographics like "RPGer" it's not even close. That does not matter though, because it has nothing to do with this thread. 

 

BioWare has a giant cast of supporting characters from all of their games who have little or no impact on the story. Iit's kind of weird to see people going to great lengths to justify why they hate Krem in particular because "Krem was so badly written." It's this one magical character who's writing was so bad that it justifies them being singled out, despite the fact that, objectively, there's only one characteristic that distinguished Krem from 99% of the other supporting characters, and it wasn't a dramatic difference in the quality of writing or dialogue.

 

But either way, I don't care. Even if for some reason I didn't like Krem, it's one character out of a massive cast, and I can't see the point of expending so much energy hating on one character.

So much wrong with this. You're completely ignoring several points made in this very thread about how lame a lot of side characters are in DA:I. And yes, while I'm sure a ton of people hate Krem for being transgender, the vast majority I've seen hate how much he's praised for not having a penis. He's talked about a lot more by people on both sides, so surprise, there are more threads on it. Go figure. 

[Panda]

No, it's really not. When you include things such as app games on phones, then sure, the amount of men and women who purchase games are about the same. When you compare who's a repeat customer, and in certain demographics like "RPGer" it's not even close. That does not matter though, because it has nothing to do with this thread.

 

Numbers are between 52% and 40% in studies. What becomes to RPG, well there has been studies where women outnumber men playing RPGs (x). I don't think male gamers are as big majority as many likes to think.

[Boobasaurus]

Which is quite problem, especially taken accord why it is so that there isn't lot of female devs around.

 

Why is it a problem? 

[Gwydden]

Numbers are between 52% and 40% in studies. What becomes to RPG, well there has been studies where women outnumber men playing RPGs (x). I don't think male gamers are as big majority as many likes to think.

Men outnumber women considerably in most AAA games. Not that it matters much.

 

Do you know something funny? The industry that deals with romantic and erotic literature is remarkably female dominated. Most writers are female, most publishers are female, and most consumers are female. The genre consistently caters to women and male characters are designed with female enjoyment in mind. This is, by the way, one of the best-selling literary genres in our day and age.

 

Obviously, this means the industry is misandrist.  No other explanation exists, of course, and there's no way this has a very simple explanation such as, I don't know, adults making their own choices? Choices like where to work and what hobbies to enjoy in their free time. Nope, that can't be it 

 

If an "inclusive" character emerges organically, I don't care. Krem was borderline in that regard.

Transgender characters emerging organically in a futuristic, technologically-advanced environment such as this is a substantial problem, though, both for scientific and narrative introduction reasons. There would have to be a reason for them being trans, and the player would only become aware of that if the topic was brought up, which already shines an unnecessary spotlight on it. Dragon Age can (barely) get away with it. Mass Effect should really leave it alone.

It does sound like it would be very hard to include it without making it seem like you're making a big deal out of it. And there's the sci-fi aspect to consider. It's already fairly common in science fiction when people modify their bodies for one reason or the other. How does new technology impact a gender switch?

 

I think a good way to go about it would be, for example, to include a transgender squadmate. However, the squadmate in question never talks about it, and that detail is revealed in some throwaway line somewhere.  Maybe a comment in one of their emails gives it away or something. Some people might consider it an invasion of privacy, but I would kindly remind those people that 1. this is a game and 2. if you read the Shadow Broker's files on your squad I don't think you have legs to stand on.

 

There. The game acknowledges transgender people exist without making a huge deal out of it. And maybe I'm off base here, but I also think it's more realistic as I don't picture most people sharing they used to be of the opposite sex just like that. Of course, the squadmate in question would have to be non-romanceable as not revealing that detail beforehand would ****** off a lot of people, but one step at a time.

[Lady Artifice]

So much wrong with this. You're completely ignoring several points made in this very thread about how lame a lot of side characters are in DA:I. And yes, while I'm sure a ton of people hate Krem for being transgender, the vast majority I've seen hate how much he's praised for not having a penis. He's talked about a lot more by people on both sides, so surprise, there are more threads on it. Go figure. 

 

 

Lame, boring, flat characters are an entirely necessary part of writing fiction with a large cast. Trying to make ever single minor character interesting and developed in their own right is a recommendation that's been made in no creative writing class ever. 

[Panda]

Men outnumber women considerably in most AAA games. Not that it matters much.

 

Do you know something funny? The industry that deals with romantic and erotic literature is remarkably female dominated. Most writers are female, most publishers are female, and most consumers are female. The genre consistently caters to women and male characters are designed with female enjoyment in mind. This is, by the way, one of the best-selling literary genres in our day and age.

 

Obviously, this means the industry is misandrist.  No other explanation exists, of course, and there's no way this has a very simple explanation such as, I don't know, adults making their own choices? Choices like where to work and what hobbies to enjoy in their free time. Nope, that can't be it 

 

It does sound like it would be very hard to include it without making it seem like you're making a big deal out of it. And there's the sci-fi aspect to consider. It's already fairly common in science fiction when people modify their bodies for one reason or the other. How does new technology impact a gender switch?

 

I haven't found lot info myself about AAA games. I did found out that League of Legends has 60/40 ratio though. I don't think Bioware has released information exactly on male-female players ratio on their games, they have mostly info about male/female main character ratios. GTA apparently has low female ratio, but that isn't suprise to me at all knowing what the game is known from.

 

I'm not familiar with romantic and erotic novel industry, since I don't use it myself so I can't say if there is underlying issues on why the genre's writers are mostly female and why consumers are as well and should it be diffent way. However the difference here seems to be that gaming is genre that many women love and feel excluded from when romance/erotic novels aren't what men love and feel excluded from, or so I think, like I said I don't know about the industry.

 

Differences of numbers aren't sexist themselves, but reasons behind numbers can be. Is there lack of female devs in gaming and male writers in romantic novels, cause industry is sexist? Cause consumers are sexist? There is evidence in gaming that yes that is the case. If there is in romance novels as well of course that's wrong as well.

 

Adults making choices is okay if it were true, but with gaming it simply doesn't seem to be so.

[The Hierophant]

I haven't found lot info myself about AAA games. I did found out that League of Legends has 60/40 ratio though. I don't think Bioware has released information exactly on male-female players ratio on their games, they have mostly info about male/female main character ratios. GTA apparently has low female ratio, but that isn't suprise to me at all knowing what the game is known from.

 

I'm not familiar with romantic and erotic novel industry, since I don't use it myself so I can't say if there is underlying issues on why the genre's writers are mostly female and why consumers are as well and should it be diffent way. However the difference here seems to be that gaming is genre that many women love and feel excluded from when romance/erotic novels aren't what men love and feel excluded from, or so I think, like I said I don't know about the industry.

 

Differences of numbers aren't sexist themselves, but reasons behind numbers can be. Is there lack of female devs in gaming and male writers in romantic novels, cause industry is sexist? Cause consumers are sexist? There is evidence in gaming that yes that is the case. If there is in romance novels as well of course that's wrong as well.

 

Adults making choices is okay if it were true, but with gaming it simply doesn't seem to be so.

Besides speculation is there proof that the small number of female devs is a result of sexism rather than it not being viewed as a preferred career choice for women, like say the sanitation field?

[Jaquio]

That is interesting because most of the Dragon Age writing seems like it was written to appeal mostly to women, a lot of Gaider's writing feels like it was written by a gay man, however when I pointed this out in the past people called me a misogynist and claimed there is no difference between the writing of people of different genders or sexualities, but it is true because I could feel these things before I even knew Dragon Age had a mostly female writing staff and the lead writer was gay.

 

Not saying this is a bad thing but with so many game developers getting bashed for creating content that appeals to straight men despite them being straight men themselves it just urks me, the problem is not straight men not catering to the demands of feminists, the problem is that there arent enough females creating content for themselves and people who share their tastes.

 

[Redacted]