150 réponses à ce sujet

[Queen Skadi]

Isnt that what I said? That most of the Dragon Age writing staff was female and it shows?

[Boobasaurus]

I'm not familiar with romantic and erotic novel industry, since I don't use it myself so I can't say if there is underlying issues on why the genre's writers are mostly female and why consumers are as well and should it be diffent way. However the difference here seems to be that gaming is genre that many women love and feel excluded from when romance/erotic novels aren't what men love and feel excluded from, or so I think, like I said I don't know about the industry.

 

Differences of numbers aren't sexist themselves, but reasons behind numbers can be. Is there lack of female devs in gaming and male writers in romantic novels, cause industry is sexist? Cause consumers are sexist? There is evidence in gaming that yes that is the case. If there is in romance novels as well of course that's wrong as well.

 

I have enjoyed videogames for many years, and I have never felt excluded from the industry. But then again, I don't expect the gaming industry to cater to my preferences all the time, since I am not their only demographic. 

[LinksOcarina]

I think they should write whatever characters they want to write. If that includes explicitly transgendered individuals, then sure, I'm all for it.

 

I've said this a few times, but I think the suggestion that the only reason they would want to include a trans character, or a gay character, or a character of an ethnicity they hadn't previously included is to be PC and meet a quota is troubling to me. It either speaks to a lack of imagination or an ingrained bigotry. 

 

I don't blame you, it is a silly notion if you look at how BioWare makes characters.

[Enigmatick]

There could have countless trans-people in ME already, it's the future.

[Panda]

Besides speculation is there proof that the small number of female devs is a result of sexism rather than it not being viewed as a preferred career choice for women, like say the sanitation field?

 

Female devs experiences and commentary towards female devs, but yep it's my speculation based on those.

[The Hierophant]

Female devs experiences and commentary towards female devs, but yep it's my speculation based on those.

Yet on the flipside you've got prominent female devs like Amy Hennig who states she didn't experience any sexism in the industry.

[LinksOcarina]

Yet on the flipside you've got prominent female devs like Amy Hennig who states she didn't experience any sexism in the industry.

 

I think the issue is more so how people perceive sexism.

 

If the idea that you are being harassed is there, you will say you were. I have heard devs, male and female, saying that the new generation of developers is overly sensitive and quicker to lay blame on people for things like saying hello.

 

I am embellishing a bit but I think that has something to do with age and the like. 

 

As for the games and stuff, honestly, who cares who is writing it? I just want it to be written well, and it usually is.

[Gwydden]

However the difference here seems to be that gaming is genre that many women love and feel excluded from when romance/erotic novels aren't what men love and feel excluded from, or so I think, like I said I don't know about the industry.

I'm not sure why you would assume that. As a man, I feel inclined to take issue with your statement 

 

There is evidence in gaming that yes that is the case.

I'd like to know what this evidence is.

 

Female devs experiences and commentary towards female devs, but yep it's my speculation based on those.

That's vague, and very far from conclusive. What female devs? What experiences are we talking about? What commentary, and from whom? Is this a common issue many women share or, as pointed above, it only looks like the subjective experiences of a few people?

 

And even if female devs are treated in an objectively poor fashion by their coworkers, I find that a very lackluster excuse for not going into the industry. If you really want to do something, you don't get scared by people being mean. Do you know how many people I've heard comment humanities are an effeminate endeavor for lazy people who contribute nothing to society and writing is a dumb career choice? That doesn't make me any less willing to be a writer.

 

If you don't become a game developer or a scientist or whatever because you can't stand people not always being nice then not only do you show an incredible lack of determination, you're also making sure things never change.

[Jaquio]

Isnt that what I said? That most of the Dragon Age writing staff was female and it shows?

 

Fair enough.  I re-read what you wrote and I misinterpreted what you meant because I missed a line in my first read.

[Panda]

I have enjoyed videogames for many years, and I have never felt excluded from the industry. But then again, I don't expect the gaming industry to cater to my preferences all the time, since I am not their only demographic. 

 

It depends on people I guess. Personally for me.. cause my interestes seem to be things that cater more men than women I have to balance out a bit, does this thing has more annnoying things that feel excluding compared  to good things I like about it. Some games like Witcher 1 had more annoying things and excluding things to me so I left it. I have to balance a lot with anime's... especially shonen animes... half time facepalming and half time enjoying the thing I guess.

[LinksOcarina]

It depends on people I guess. Personally for me.. cause my interestes seem to be things that cater more men than women I have to balance out a bit, does this thing has more annnoying things that feel excluding compared  to good things I like about it. Some games like Witcher 1 had more annoying things and excluding things to me so I left it. I have to balance a lot with anime's... especially shonen animes... half time facepalming and half time enjoying the thing I guess.

 

Witcher is a weird case because the first game used it as part of the fantasy; the sex cards which were based on real life things from medieval Poland and the like, the casual sex Geralt had with elves and dryads, etc.

 

Witcher 3 we see the sexist slurs all over the place, but we see women who beat the crap out of people all the time. There is a marketable difference between the first and third game and how it explores sexuality, despite the setting being "adult" (it only got adult in the third game I argue) the entire time.

[The Hierophant]

I think the issue is more so how people perceive sexism.

 

If the idea that you are being harassed is there, you will say you were. I have heard devs, male and female, saying that the new generation of developers is overly sensitive and quicker to lay blame on people for things like saying hello.

 

I am embellishing a bit but I think that has something to do with age and the like. 

 

As for the games and stuff, honestly, who cares who is writing it? I just want it to be written well, and it usually is.

Agreed. What i'm getting at is that there's no singular reason for the low number of female devs like say sexism, and that the situation is more complicated than just that.

[LinksOcarina]

Agreed. What i'm getting at is that there's no singular reason for the low number of female devs like say sexism, and that the situation is more complicated than just that.

 

It is also interesting to point out is that many devs are nor marketing jobs to females either, in particular those who are now the most visible in the end, such as those in the femenist movement such as B. Wu and the like.

 

Instead it is fear mongering, which is even more dangerous, it just reinforces the stereotype.

[Panda]

I'm not sure why you would assume that. As a man, I feel inclined to take issue with your statement 

 

I'd like to know what this evidence is.

 

That's vague, and very far from conclusive. What female devs? What experiences are we talking about? What commentary, and from whom? Is this a common issue many women share or, as pointed above, it only looks like the subjective experiences of a few people?

 

And even if female devs are treated in an objectively poor fashion by their coworkers, I find that a very lackluster excuse for not going into the industry. If you really want to do something, you don't get scared by people being mean. Do you know how many people I've heard comment humanities are an effeminate endeavor for lazy people who contribute nothing to society and writing is a dumb career choice? That doesn't make me any less willing to be a writer.

 

If you don't become a game developer or a scientist or whatever because you can't stand people not always being nice then not only do you show an incredible lack of determination, you're also making sure things never change.

 

I'm assuming that cause I haven't heard any man feeling excluded from romantic and erotic novels, but again I said I don't know industry nor people who read those novels.

 

Hmm, I don't have links or something if you are asking that, it's more like things I have read during years and overall impression it has left. I could off course start googling.. but maybe later.

 

I don't find bad treatment being lackluster reason to not go into industry. Most people are looking after happiness after all and bad treatment can also mean less job opportunities. Most people aren't very passionate, they just end up somewhere that interests them.

[The Hierophant]

It is also interesting to point out is that many devs are nor marketing jobs to females either, in particular those who are now the most visible in the end, such as those in the femenist movement such as B. Wu and the like.

 

Instead it is fear mongering, which is even more dangerous, it just reinforces the stereotype.

 Toss in the clickbait game journo sites who only care about sensationalism.

 

A shame too. It's like some self fulfilling prophecy.

[Gwydden]

I'm assuming that cause I haven't heard any man feeling excluded from romantic and erotic novels, but again I said I don't know industry nor people who read those novels.

 

Hmm, I don't have links or something if you are asking that, it's more like things I have read during years and overall impression it has left. I could off course start googling.. but maybe later.

 

I don't find bad treatment being lackluster reason to not go into industry. Most people are looking after happiness after all and bad treatment can also mean less job opportunities. Most people aren't very passionate, they just end up somewhere that interests them.

I have nothing against more women taking up gaming, be it as a hobby or a career choice. In fact, I think it's great. I'm just pointing out that men and women statistically lean towards different things, for whatever reason it may be. It's very likely that the explanation for the relative lack of women in gaming is as simple as 'most women are not interested', and you just cannot force people to like something they don't care about.

 

At any rate, I think we've strayed a bit from this thread's mission statement 

[Panda]

I have nothing against more women taking up gaming, be it as a hobby or a career choice. In fact, I think it's great. I'm just pointing out that men and women statistically lean towards different things, for whatever reason it may be. It's very likely that the explanation for the relative lack of women in gaming is as simple as 'most women are not interested', and you just cannot force people to like something they don't care about.

 

At any rate, I think we've strayed a bit from this thread's mission statement 

 

I don't think the explanation is that simple, but you are right about the topic ^^

[JoltDealer]

I'm not a fan of token characters.  It's a cheap trick that writers use to make any creative work seem more progressive, diverse, and/or inclusive.  Krem was a token transgender character.  His role in the story was non-essential and could've been filled with any other character of any other race, gender, or sexual orientation to the same effect.  Most of Krem's conversations are optional and his character seems to revolve around his Tevinter heritage, his work with Iron Bull, and his transgender status.  That's it.

 

Krem does not grow or change over the course of the Inquisition, nothing of any notable worth is achieved by his character, and there wasn't much else to his character.  As a writer myself, the key is to make a strong and compelling character who happens to be transgender, not one who is almost entirely defined by it.  Maevaris in the Dragon Age comics is a good example of this.  She is a man living as a woman and, aside from the scene where her clothes have been ripped off, her status as a transgender isn't really emphasized.  When the reveal is made, a some extraneous details suddenly make sense, but other than that, it's just another part of her character instead of it being the focal point.

 

If Bioware wants to be truly diverse in future games, we need more characters like Maevaris Tilani.

[ExoGeniVI]

who?

What, when, where?

[KainD]

I hope not. I don't like things shoehorned in just for progressiveness.

 

Including trans characters is not progressive. 

[Former_Fiend]

Tell me, what precisely do you mean by 'bigotry'?
 

 

Alright, no beating around the bushes here, I'll state it plainly.

 

I think there are members of this community who are transphobic, homophobic, and racist, and that this is where some - not all, but some - of the anti-inclusion arguments come from. 

 

Now, I understand the weariness of inclusion for inclusion's sake, but there are people here who make it seem like they believe any further inclusion beyond what we've already had - and sometimes that's too much for them - only happens for the sake of inclusion. That there could be no other possible reason to have such characters in the game.

 

To me, it seems like the same mentality of assuming a black person in any high level position only got there through affirmative action, that they couldn't have gotten there by their own merits. 

 

The fact that people here want to shut down the inclusion of anything beyond their norms because they either can't fathom or dismiss out of hand the possibility that someone on the writing staff may genuinely want to write such a character, that they have to be there by some mandated political correctness check list, and just want to shut that down right out of the gate, I don't know another way to take that beyond some level of bigotry, and I've done a little brain wracking on the subject.

 

If I am completely off base here, and there is another mentality behind it, then please enlighten me.

[diaspora2k5]

The thing with Krem is that you have two short dialogue options in the base game that refers to his sexuality... and exploring them are entirely optional. If you don't care there's no reason to even bring it up.

[LinksOcarina]

The thing with Krem is that you have two short dialogue options in the base game that refers to his sexuality... and exploring them are entirely optional. If you don't care there's no reason to even bring it up.

 

Which in of itself I think is more to the point.

 

I didn't even realize Krem was trans until the topic came up. There you go.

[daveliam]

If I am completely off base here, and there is another mentality behind it, then please enlighten me.

 

I do not think you are wrong, unfortunately.

[Han Shot First]

I think there has been a lot of overreaction to Krem from both sides.

 

On the one hand you had the people that were squeeing over him and saying what an amazing character he was, despite being a walking codex entry with practically no character development, and having a very minor role that didn't extend beyond a couple stories about Bull & the Chargers, and Tevinter/Qunari attitudes towards gender identity.

 

On the other hand you had the people hating the character and saying how awful he was, despite being a very minor walking codex entry that wasn't in game long enough, or developed enough, to have truly earned such hate. 

 

In both cases, I doubt there would have been much of a reaction in either direction if he didn't identify as trans. 

 

Chalk me down for a 'Meh.'