150 réponses à ce sujet

[Queen Skadi]

Agreed 100%.  Personally, I think Krem is totally overrated on both accounts.  He really is kind of forgettable as an NPC.  But he's also far from the "trans issues being shoved down throat!!!!!" character that his detractors make him out to be too.  I totally agree with the meh.

 

I don't think it was trans issues being forced down peoples throats but I do think the character was shoehorned in for the sake of progressiveness.

 

Krem as a character does not make much sense in the Dragon Age universe nor does every character's insistence on calling her a him as if it is generally accepted that girls can be guys too in the Dragon Age universe, while I would not say it is something that is crammed down peoples throats I will say that it is something that sticks out like a sore thumb as something that makes no real sense in the universe and was only included to show how progressive the developers are for including trans people in their game.

[Heathen Oxman]

It's a BIOWARE game.

 

Anyone who has played more than one BW title, and is still shocked/surprised/dismayed when an LGTBQ character shows up, has the IQ of a toothbrush.

 

 

 

[Ahglock]

It's a BIOWARE game.

 

Anyone who has played more than one BW title, and is still shocked/surprised/dismayed when an LGTBQ character shows up, has the IQ of a toothbrush.

 

 

A biotic toothbrush or just a regular one.  Biotics make everything smarter.

[Aesa]

It's a BIOWARE game.

 

Anyone who has played more than one BW title, and is still shocked/surprised/dismayed when an LGTBQ character shows up, has the IQ of a toothbrush.

 

 

Did someone say toothbrush? 

 

[countofhell]

Krem de la krem ? :-)

 

I like that kid. It is really bad that he got only very limited dialogue options and he is not a playable companion.

[Linkenski]

In the present, sexism vs feminism and gender roles is a hot topic, so I don't see why the future as depicted by Mass Effect should really restrain from exploring it. I was more annoyed with how Dragon Age forced it so much that it felt like the identity of the franchise had changed into a more modern fantasy-type game. The thing I hate about BIoware's sequels is how they never seem to care about consistency.

[Vortex13]

As long as ME:A gives significant screen time to 'alien' aliens I don't really care about humanity and our stupid issues; regardless of what political, sexual, or social end of the spectrum you fall on. It's not so much inclusivity for inclusivity's sake that bothers me; it's when the diversity and depth of the setting is sacrificed so that we can get another human talking about their daddy issues, or their dark past.

What I mean by diversity in this sense is the amount of non-human elements in relation to the human ones. Look at ME 1 or DA:O/A compared to ME 3 and DA:I, both franchises started out with a nice balance to their respective universes; there was the elements that we could grasp and understand, and those others that were foreign. The settings felt more alive in a sense; there were other factions and creatures that didn't conform to our way of doing things, that had wholly different motivations, and by and large the human-like elements were only a part of a larger whole. Flash forward to the most recent entries and most if not all of that 'otherness' is missing.

"Who cares about fleshing out the Awakened or Werewolf plotlines, let's focus on Orlais and smelly cheeses instead." "Don't bother expanding on the Hanar or Elcor in any serious manner, let's just turn them into meme races instead." etc.

I like to escape into these fictional settings to experience things that aren't possible in the real world. If I wanted to hear about the LGBT plight, or listen to people complain about how they had horrible parents I could turn on the news or load up Twitter.

[Laughing_Man]

As long as ME:A gives significant screen time to 'alien' aliens I don't really care about humanity and our stupid issues; regardless of what political, sexual, or social end of the spectrum you fall on. It's not so much inclusivity for inclusivity's sake that bothers me; it's when the diversity and depth of the setting is sacrificed so that we can get another human talking about their daddy issues, or their dark past.

What I mean by diversity in this sense is the amount of non-human elements in relation to the human ones. Look at ME 1 or DA:O/A compared to ME 3 and DA:I, both franchises started out with a nice balance to their respective universes; there was the elements that we could grasp and understand, and those others that were foreign. The settings felt more alive in a sense; there were other factions and creatures that didn't conform to our way of doing things, that had wholly different motivations, and by and large the human-like elements were only a part of a larger whole. Flash forward to the most recent entries and most if not all of that 'otherness' is missing.

"Who cares about fleshing out the Awakened or Werewolf plotlines, let's focus on Orlais and smelly cheeses instead." "Don't bother expanding on the Hanar or Elcor in any serious manner, let's just turn them into meme races instead." etc.

I like to escape into these fictional settings to experience things that aren't possible in the real world. If I wanted to hear about the LGBT plight, or listen to people complain about how they had horrible parents I could turn on the news or load up Twitter.

 

Well said.

 

It is unfortunate that so much of the appeal and mystique of the fascinating lore in certain Sci-Fi and Fantasy games seem to have been lost.

Instead we have mediocre stories with ship-sized plot-holes in them (in some cases), and dating sims.

[Former_Fiend]

I don't think it was trans issues being forced down peoples throats but I do think the character was shoehorned in for the sake of progressiveness.

 

Krem as a character does not make much sense in the Dragon Age universe nor does every character's insistence on calling her a him as if it is generally accepted that girls can be guys too in the Dragon Age universe, while I would not say it is something that is crammed down peoples throats I will say that it is something that sticks out like a sore thumb as something that makes no real sense in the universe and was only included to show how progressive the developers are for including trans people in their game.

 

I don't see how he doesn't fit. Both previous games featured trans individuals(though they've since backpedaled and called the drag queens instead) and there is a prominent trans character in the comics.

 

I'd also point out that not every character insists on calling Krem "him". Bull's the only one who insists on it. I don't imagine anyone else except Cole knows.

[daveliam]

I don't see how he doesn't fit. Both previous games featured trans individuals(though they've since backpedaled and called the drag queens instead) and there is a prominent trans character in the comics.

 

I'd also point out that not every character insists on calling Krem "him". Bull's the only one who insists on it. I don't imagine anyone else except Cole knows.

 

Agreed.  They've established clearly that there are transgender characters in Thedas.  And they did so before Krem was ever introduced.  I'm not understanding the whole "trans people don't make sense" argument at all.  Outside of the Qunari idea of strict gender roles, there's absolutely nothing that would contradict it.  And, people seem to forget, Krem's not Qunari. 

 

And this same argument really wouldn't apply to the ME setting, which is based on our future.  And there are trans people in our present, so why wouldn't there be trans people in our future?  In fact, given the current trends in trans acceptance in society, I would expect more openly trans people in our future.

[Deebo305]

I didn't have any issue with Krem he serves his small role as part of the Bull Chargers, neither more or less of the character was needed

Will there be another one....maybe but as stated in a similar thread, I hope this doesn't turn into some kind of checklist foe Bioware like "We nees this character to fill this quota", if any (insert here)sexual character is added then make them matter like Steve or Samantha from ME3 for instance

[Former_Fiend]

Agreed.  They've established clearly that there are transgender characters in Thedas.  And they did so before Krem was ever introduced.  I'm not understanding the whole "trans people don't make sense" argument at all.  Outside of the Qunari idea of strict gender roles, there's absolutely nothing that would contradict it.  And, people seem to forget, Krem's not Qunari. 

 

And this same argument really wouldn't apply to the ME setting, which is based on our future.  And there are trans people in our present, so why wouldn't there be trans people in our future?  In fact, given the current trends in trans acceptance in society, I would expect more openly trans people in our future.

 

I think what a lot of people either don't realize or choose to ignore is that there were transgender people in our past, too. 

 

I talked about this a bit in the explicit content threads, but I think the perception of medieval fantasy is still, perhaps subconsciously, influenced by fairy tales, Disney fiction, and other children's stories that don't speak on subjects of sexuality or gender identity. They expect them to conform to their perception of a conservative religious culture with strong sex and nudity taboos.

 

While that was certainly a facet of the middle ages, the reality was far more complicated. And there were still trans individuals then; they didn't transition nearly as much or as openly, but they existed. There are accounts of transgenderism going back at least to ancient Greece. There's no legitimate reason to believe they just disappeared between then and now. 

[daveliam]

I didn't have any issue with Krem he serves his small role as part of the Bull Chargers, neither more or less of the character was needed

Will there be another one....maybe but as stated in a similar thread, I hope this doesn't turn into some kind of checklist foe Bioware like "We nees this character to fill this quota", if any (insert here)sexual character is added then make them matter like Steve or Samantha from ME3 for instance

 

I think the issue with this line of reasoning is that it creates this odd dynamic where an LGBT character has to play a significant role or they are considered a 'token', which, in turns, creates a 'checklist' dynamic.  The reality is that, simply because of a tendency to view minorities as tokens, they are going to have people accusing them of this regardless of what they do.  Basically, if LGBT characters are included, someone is going to consider them a 'token' and complain about them.

 

I think what a lot of people either don't realize or choose to ignore is that there were transgender people in our past, too. 

 

I talked about this a bit in the explicit content threads, but I think the perception of medieval fantasy is still, perhaps subconsciously, influenced by fairy tales, Disney fiction, and other children's stories that don't speak on subjects of sexuality or gender identity. They expect them to conform to their perception of a conservative religious culture with strong sex and nudity taboos.

 

While that was certainly a facet of the middle ages, the reality was far more complicated. And there were still trans individuals then; they didn't transition nearly as much or as openly, but they existed. There are accounts of transgenderism going back at least to ancient Greece. There's no legitimate reason to believe they just disappeared between then and now. 

 

True.  Well said!

[Heathen Oxman]

I think the issue with this line of reasoning is that it creates this odd dynamic where an LGBT character has to play a significant role or they are considered a 'token', which, in turns, creates a 'checklist' dynamic.  The reality is that, simply because of a tendency to view minorities as tokens, they are going to have people accusing them of this regardless of what they do.  Basically, if LGBT characters are included, someone is going to consider them a 'token' and complain about them.

 

 

True.  Well said!

 

Exactly.

 

I have no idea why non-heteronormative characters are required to have extensive "justifications" for their existence.

 

Krem wasn't any different than the other dozen NPCs, except he happens to be transgendered. 

[Jaquio]

I honestly think 90% of the concern about Krem would have gone away if it weren't for that "meet the Chargers" cutscene in the tavern that felt like an after school special.  If they just left you the clues (the voice, the offhand comment about binding, etc.) but never directly addressed it, then it could have been a "this is who Krem is, but it doesn't affect what he does" scenario which could have been more impactful.  Instead, the "let's all sit around and have a frank talk about Krem and his choices" felt a little forced.

 

But I blame bad writing/acting, because the issue with Krem was hardly the worst offender in that scene.  The hamfisted "It's a BOW" jokes from the elf mage were kinda cringeworthy.

[Former_Fiend]

I will say that I think Krem, specifically, served a good purpose beyond being transgender; he gave us a view point into Tevinter society that we hadn't seen before. We've seen the escaped slave in Fenris and Tallis, plenty of slavers, and a sympathetic noble in Dorian. But Krem gives us a view into the common freeman's life in Tevinter and how it kind of sucks.

 

That's really the take away I got from Krem, more so than what's between his legs.

[Schmonozov]

Didn't the EA CEO just come out with a statement saying they they factor in a persons skin color and gender when they hire people? I doubt we will get any less shoehorning in the name of progressiveness. That said Krem wasn't really in your face all the time, you barely had to interact with him at all from what I can remember.

[Pasquale1234]

It's a BIOWARE game.
 
Anyone who has played more than one BW title, and is still shocked/surprised/dismayed when an LGTBQ character shows up, has the IQ of a toothbrush.
 

My toothbrush is insulted.

[LinksOcarina]

I think what a lot of people either don't realize or choose to ignore is that there were transgender people in our past, too. 

 

I talked about this a bit in the explicit content threads, but I think the perception of medieval fantasy is still, perhaps subconsciously, influenced by fairy tales, Disney fiction, and other children's stories that don't speak on subjects of sexuality or gender identity. They expect them to conform to their perception of a conservative religious culture with strong sex and nudity taboos.

 

While that was certainly a facet of the middle ages, the reality was far more complicated. And there were still trans individuals then; they didn't transition nearly as much or as openly, but they existed. There are accounts of transgenderism going back at least to ancient Greece. There's no legitimate reason to believe they just disappeared between then and now. 

 

Historically its moreso about stigmatizing and post-modern values of decency going into that. Religion played a part, but so did the state; Rome for example outlawed homosexuality to foster procreation, so that the Roman Empire could grow stronger. Before that, same-sex relations were not taboo.

 

The truth of the matter is there are few accounts because of that taboo; which does make sense because usually that would lead to persecution in the middle ages at best.

[Elhanan]

My toothbrush is insulted.

Bristling with indignation?

[Jaquio]

As long as ME:A gives significant screen time to 'alien' aliens I don't really care about humanity and our stupid issues; regardless of what political, sexual, or social end of the spectrum you fall on. It's not so much inclusivity for inclusivity's sake that bothers me; it's when the diversity and depth of the setting is sacrificed so that we can get another human talking about their daddy issues, or their dark past.

What I mean by diversity in this sense is the amount of non-human elements in relation to the human ones. Look at ME 1 or DA:O/A compared to ME 3 and DA:I, both franchises started out with a nice balance to their respective universes; there was the elements that we could grasp and understand, and those others that were foreign. The settings felt more alive in a sense; there were other factions and creatures that didn't conform to our way of doing things, that had wholly different motivations, and by and large the human-like elements were only a part of a larger whole. Flash forward to the most recent entries and most if not all of that 'otherness' is missing.

"Who cares about fleshing out the Awakened or Werewolf plotlines, let's focus on Orlais and smelly cheeses instead." "Don't bother expanding on the Hanar or Elcor in any serious manner, let's just turn them into meme races instead." etc.

I like to escape into these fictional settings to experience things that aren't possible in the real world. If I wanted to hear about the LGBT plight, or listen to people complain about how they had horrible parents I could turn on the news or load up Twitter.

 

That's actually a fair criticism.

 

There's something about turning the hanar into a jellyfish-movie-poster meme joke that undercuts some of the studio's efforts towards sincerity.  It felt like the writers let out a big sigh of relief "thank god we can just make up races for all of our crappy stereotype jokes."  Not that there are any hanar to be offended, and not like I'm concerned about the plight of imaginary peoples, but it's somewhat disappointing when writers don't take their own creation seriously in a genre like this.  Why should I care about lore and world building when the writers themselves are so dismissive of it?

 

Weekes is probably the worst offender when it comes pillaging and stripping serious lore for memes, which is Bad News® for Dragon Age fans moving forward.

[Killdren88]

Krem de la krem ? :-)

I like that kid. It is really bad that he got only very limited dialogue options and he is not a playable companion.

Why should he need more dialogue? I would think the act of acknowledging people like that exist and done in a positive manor would be more than enough.

[daveliam]

Why should he need more dialogue? I would think the act of acknowledging people like that exist and done in a positive manor would be more than enough.

Why do you assume that the poster you are responding to made his/her statement specifically in reference to Krem's gender identity? I read that comment as 'I liked Krem so it was a shame that he didn't play a bigger role in the game'. I swear, sometime people LOOK for 'SJW' incidents where they don't exist. Literally, in this case, saying that you want Krem to have a larger role becomes 'Why isn't just acknowledge 'people like that' enough?!?!?'

[Killdren88]

Why do you assume that the poster you are responding to made his/her statement specifically in reference to Krem's gender identity? I read that comment as 'I liked Krem so it was a shame that he didn't play a bigger role in the game'. I swear, sometime people LOOK for 'SJW' incidents where they don't exist. Literally, in this case, saying that you want Krem to have a larger role becomes 'Why isn't just acknowledge 'people like that' enough?!?!?'

I said nothing about SJWs. Secondly, don't pretend that Kerm would have came to be if the fan base was different. Our fan base has always been open minded and progressive. Of course so is Bioware. They just as far because they knew they had our support

[Flog the Undying]

Why do people always take 'having a non cis character' as 'trans stuff being shoved down our throats'?

 

I mean, how are cis characters not 'shoved down our throats'?