225 réponses à ce sujet

[Aravasia]

Solas's view obviously seems drastic (and perhaps slightly insane) to outside viewers, so I have been trying to think of a hypothetical scenario in which would allow others to question whether they could ever understand Solas's decision. As such, my questions follow as:

 

Say that you were given the choice to replace this world with the Dragon Age world (or whatever other ideal fantasy world - Mass Effect, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, etc.) even though this would result in the destruction of this world - and most likely everyone in it. Would you do it?

 

To add to that, would you still do it if it meant the death of all of your loved ones? Or, would you do it if you had no loved ones here?

 

 

 

Alternatively, say that this world was replaced with a dystopian world (this is likely different for everyone, so, just imagine a world that would be horrible to you.) Again, would you destroy that world to bring this one back? What if you had friends or a loved one there?

 

This is, of course, ignoring the guilt portion of being responsible that goes along with Solas's decision. But I am curious what others would do in these scenarios.  

[ravenesse]

I like the thought. And I am extremly happy that this choice will never be offered to me, because realistically thinking about you might drive you insane already.

[KaiserShep]

In such a situation that I was deeply dissatisfied with this new world, I'd have a hard time getting around the idea that an effort to destroy it to somehow restore the old one could simply end in something far worse than either. Unless it's literally fire and brimstone, I don't think I'd be too willing to just dismantle the world as I know it, especially if it's likely that I'll kill lots of innocent people in the process.

In Solas' case, a severe lack of perspective is the problem. I'm not at all keen on the idea that going backward is a particularly good solution.

[wright1978]

From Solas' point of view surely the situation is no different to waking up to discover a world where the blight has spread to take hold of 100% of life in Thedas and vowing to uncorrupt it at whatever cost.

[Al Foley]

I don't think I need to substitute anything for this scenario.  The scenario itself...Solas's view does have a certain rough logic to it.  Especially how messed up the Dragon Age is.  It was the same quetion first posited by BSG, is humanity worth saving?  Its something so extremly racist it almost bends back on itself whereas if we, as individuals, and as a people are inherently flawed and fallen creatures then maybe the best solution is to wipe the slate clean and start over?  Its certainly an interesting philosophical point, and very understandable.  Dosen't mean I am just gonna let him do it.  But at the end of the day I intend to prove him wrong. 

[Bigdoser]

Problem is if you are friends/romance solas now has something of value in the current world hence why he becomes conflicted. I imagine why the elves are following him is for similar reasons the op listed I mean hell the elves are treated like crap and used by everyone. Now if I was in solas position I am not sure if I would be able to make that choice. Hence why I will prove him wrong again because I can't make that choice for other people.

[Aravasia]

I don't think I need to substitute anything for this scenario.  The scenario itself...Solas's view does have a certain rough logic to it.  Especially how messed up the Dragon Age is.  It was the same quetion first posited by BSG, is humanity worth saving?  Its something so extremly racist it almost bends back on itself whereas if we, as individuals, and as a people are inherently flawed and fallen creatures then maybe the best solution is to wipe the slate clean and start over?  Its certainly an interesting philosophical point, and very understandable.  Dosen't mean I am just gonna let him do it.  But at the end of the day I intend to prove him wrong. 

The question is, whether Solas's disapproval comes from his dislike for actual humans, or his dislike for the current society. After all, from how I perceived it, he did not appear to favor the modern elves over any of the other races, and from what I understand, he has no intention of saving them. Of course, the ancient elves did not appear to be paragons of goodness and light either. I think southern Thedasian society, even dominated by humans, is the first to banish slavery (without something equally as bad, such as dwarven casteless, or Qunari indoctrination.)

[NoForgiveness]

Not gonna read all that but yes i can see from his point of view. And honestly, I might be doing the same exact thing if I was him. I mean he compares people in thedas to the tranquil. And the tranquil are void of everything that makes them living... i just can't see them as living people. So If the world was full of tranquil and destroying all of them meant that people could come back... then yes I think I might do it.

That said, i find most people in real life.. not worth much but a few here and there are just so amazing and that shows me there's potential in everyone. So that's what I'd be looking for to decide whether or not to destroy. One friend and/or lover would be enough to make me decide not to.

[vertigomez]

No, because it's not my call. I don't get to make decisions like that for billions of people - I don't get to kill billions of men, women, and children because I think this new world could be for the better.

[leadintea]

No, because it's not my call. I don't get to make decisions like that for billions of people - I don't get to kill billions of men, women, and children because I think this new world could be for the better.

 

Right? I could never be that selfish to destroy the lives people have painstakingly crafted over centuries just because of my loneliness. I'd rather find the few people in the world like me (like Abelas) and form a new society.

[Aravasia]

Right? I could never be that selfish to destroy the lives people have painstakingly crafted over centuries just because of my loneliness. I'd rather find the few people in the world like me (like Abelas) and form a new society.

I do not believe that his motivations are selfish (or are made out of loneliness) given that he would be losing people he cares about (assuming he and your Inquisitor were friendly) for a people that now resent him, judging by the codex entries they wrote about him.

 

Most people do not progress beyond the conventional stage to post-conventional morality, meaning, most people consider personal stakes over what is best for the whole. (Consider a hypothetical scenario where you are forced to choose saving your most loved one over two other people, most people would save their loved one, even at the cost of the two other lives.) However, I believe Solas has post-conventional morality, meaning, he makes the choice that he believes is best for everyone, regardless of how it affects him personally. 

[leadintea]

I do not believe that his motivations are selfish (or are made out of loneliness) given that he would be losing people he cares about (assuming he and your Inquisitor were friendly) for a people that now resent him, judging by the codex entries they wrote about him.

 

Most people do not progress beyond the conventional stage to post-conventional morality, meaning, most people consider personal stakes over what is best for the whole. (Consider a hypothetical scenario where you are forced to choose saving your most loved one over two other people, most people would save their loved one, even at the cost of the two other lives.) However, I believe Solas has post-conventional morality, meaning, he makes the choice that he believes is best for everyone, regardless of how it affects him personally. 

 

It's a selfish choice because, as you said, he believes that his choice is best for everyone. He doesn't base his thoughts on other's opinions, just on his own. Even if it isn't a choice that benefits him, it's a choice that affects everyone in the world and it's not a choice that a sole individual has the right to make, just as it wasn't his right to create the Veil in the first place.

[calvinien]

To answer your question: NO.

 

Even if I was offered my ideal world I would never murder an innocent to get it. never mind a few billion.

 

And solas won't get his ideal world back. Assuming his plan won't blow up in his face and just kill a bunch of people like what happens every time he does anything. Even if he does bring magic back then what. I imagine the survivors wouldn't be too happy about having their world destroyed, their friends and family killed. Even if he could save ALL the elves (and let's be honest, there's no way his end the world scenario is that discriminating) I imagine a lot of them will be displeased with having to build their soceity on top of a mass grave.

 

You don't make the world better by pressing a button and wiping the slate clean. You make the world better through small steps. It's a battle you win by inches. The inquisition itself is proof of that.

[Aravasia]

It's a selfish choice because, as you said, he believes that his choice is best for everyone. He doesn't base his thoughts on other's opinions, just on his own. Even if it isn't a choice that benefits him, it's a choice that affects everyone in the world and it's not a choice that a sole individual has the right to make, just as it wasn't his right to create the Veil in the first place.

I see your point, basically the idea is that no-one should play a god? Though, I believe he hinted that the world would have been entirely destroyed had he not placed the veil, in which case, if the choice is either that, or the entire world is annihilated, I do not believe his decision to place it was inherently wrong. Of course, the modern Dragon Age world is not ending now (at least, not that we know of.) Which leaves me wondering, why does Solas not just at least try to just rebuild the world he had? He could probably even find a way to slowly assimilate the physical world with the fade, without it happening all at once and the massive destruction that follows. It is not as if he does not have all the time in the world.

[Aravasia]

To answer your question: NO.

 

Even if I was offered my ideal world I would never murder an innocent to get it. never mind a few billion.

 

And solas won't get his ideal world back. Assuming his plan won't blow up in his face and just kill a bunch of people like what happens every time he does anything. Even if he does bring magic back then what. I imagine the survivors wouldn't be too happy about having their world destroyed, their friends and family killed. Even if he could save ALL the elves (and let's be honest, there's no way his end the world scenario is that discriminating) I imagine a lot of them will be displeased with having to build their soceity on top of a mass grave.

 

You don't make the world better by pressing a button and wiping the slate clean. You make the world better through small steps. It's a battle you win by inches. The inquisition itself is proof of that.

A fine point. I did not intend to place the importance on the world being better for just you, but a world that someone believes would be better for everyone. I imagine that most people whom would make that choice would never be able to forgive themselves afterwards, in order to actually enjoy the world they created. The same is likely true for Solas. 

 

And, see my post above about your last point. What makes me wonder is why Solas does not try this. 

[Wahed89]

I don't know to what extent removing the veil would "destroy" this world. That's my first question. Would it be like a war zone with people burning and suffering? Would it last a second, would it last years? Would every single living soul die? Would only those in the fade survive?

 

Also, it's hard to understand who is going to live in this new world. In the beginning there were not separate races, and the other races have just come about through a splitting and dilution of the original race, likely once the veil created the "unchanging" world. If that is the case, this original race arguably doesn't exist any longer. Who is the world being fixed for? Who does he want to share it with?

 

There's a lot we don't know to judge whether or not a "new" world would be a good thing. I can only imagine his actions even being somewhat justifiable if the ancient elves were still alive, somewhere. Otherwise, who is it for?

 

I'm working on the assumption here that all current humanoids are not Solas' intended people, including the dalish/city elves.

[Jeniva]

Whilst I don't really agree with Solas, because obviously all our lovely previous heroes etc will die - I do completely understand it from his point of view. Also it is HIS fault the world is how it is now in Thedas, because he created the veil. 

[Aravasia]

I don't know to what extent removing the veil would "destroy" this world. That's my first question. Would it be like a war zone with people burning and suffering? Would it last a second, would it last years? Would every single living soul die? Would only those in the fade survive?

 

Also, it's hard to understand who is going to live in this new world. In the beginning there were not separate races, and the other races have just come about through a splitting and dilution of the original race, likely once the veil created the "unchanging" world. If that is the case, this original race arguably doesn't exist any longer. Who is the world being fixed for? Who does he want to share it with?

 

There's a lot we don't know to judge whether or not a "new" world would be a good thing. I can only imagine his actions even being somewhat justifiable if the ancient elves were still alive, somewhere. Otherwise, who is it for?

 

I'm working on the assumption here that all current humanoids are not Solas' intended people, including the dalish/city elves.

Well, we know that at least some ancient elves survived (Abelas, the sentinel elves, and Felassan.) It is possible that there are enough left to populate the new world Solas is planning, and that that is his intention. 

 

As for why the world will be 'destroyed' as Solas mentions. I can only hypothesize. I imagine that it may have to do something with the Blight. The Blight is contained within the black city (and with new revelations on Elven society having been in the fade, and Solas's semi-role as the Maker, it seems likely that the black city is Arlathan as well.) The elven gods (Evanuris) were said to be locked in the 'eternal city' in elven legend, and the black - once golden city - was said to be the seat of the Maker - whom we now know was at least partially based off of Solas. I somehow imagine that removing the veil will have some negative aspects on how well the Blight is contained there.

[Vit246]

Two people on different threads made a rather interesting argument that Solas's decision is not too different from the Inquisitor's decision in the mage quest In Hushed Whispers, to destroy the future world and restore the world that they knew because according to them, it was wrong.

 

How can you tell? You were born in the unnatural world. The world of Thedas, the way it is now, is an mutation, a shadow of it's former self. The natural state of things is when magic and mundane were the same. In the end, mages are in fact what lingers of what once was. Being a mage was originally the natural state of the people of Thedas.

 

There are still ancient elves about. They slept like Solas did, and now many of them are slowly awakening, like the guardians of Mythal or Felassan. It's like Solas said to Abelas "the people yet linger". So how can you be so sure that the marvels of old can't be restored? Solas likely remembers them very well.

 

People are so opposed to Solas, but are we so different? When we arrive at future Redcliffe, the world has been completely changed to something we thought horrible, and our first move was to want to go back and restore the world as it was. How can we claim to be better, when we so quickly follow the same steps as Solas? People should stop to ponder about that for a moment.

 

Does that mean I support his purge? No, I don't. I understand his reasoning perfectly, but I still would struggle to stop him. It is after all, human nature to cling to what we hold dear, and there are good things in this world worth preserving and good people worth saving. If there is no option, I would fight Solas to the death, but instead, I would prefer to show him that there is aways another way.

 

 

 

Something that remained with me after finishing this DLC are Morrigan's words. In the epilogue Morrigan says, "’Tis said that Corypheus woke after his long slumber and found the world gone awry."

 

In the final discussion with Solas he says that when he woke up a year before the explosion at the Conclave it was like everyone was Tranquil. He's determined to bring back existence as he remembers it, no matter the cost.

 

This is very similar to the next line in the initial epilogue narrated by Morrigan, "He fought to bring back those days of magic and shadow, to raise himself as a god, and set things right."

 

However, I think possibly the most apt parallels is one you can draw with yourself: Your Inquisitor's reaction to In Hushed Whispers is perhaps the most telling.

 

When your Inquisitor are sent into the future, you see a world in total chaos and misery. At any point, did you think to yourself, "Maybe I should look into this more, and not try to erase this future?"

 

Erasing this future means destroying anyone who was born. Erasing bad things, of course, but good things, too, even if they seem few. There must be some good things that were present in that world. Perhaps we could have helped the resistance fight the Elder One and take him down instead of erasing the timeline.

 

However, you and Dorian never stop and consider that you should salvage this world or save it. This world is abhorrent to you. A total catastrophe, and failing abomination. Of course you are going to restore the world you knew. Whatever the flaws of your own world, it is surely better than what you see? Dorian even repeats this to character such as Leliana who replied that this world was real to them regardless of what you say.

 

There are parallels with Corypheus, yes, but Corypheus, at least, woke to a world that was not too altered. Corypheus lived in a time with the Veil. On the other hand, you entered into and Solas woke to a world that is torn apart from the one both of you respectively knew.

 

Let us take this further. What if you were sent 20 years in the future? 200? 2000 ? The people kicking around then, all corrupted by Red Lyrium, even the children. The people live as long as 20 or 30. All slaves to Corypheus unless you are magister, a human and a citizen of Tevinter.

 

Yet they insist, no, their world is fine. It is all good. Though, you know that there was a world that you can return that was so much better. These people, despite being miserable, corrupted slaves, they see value in themselves. Do you erase them anyway? Or do you let this world continue as it goes? That is the world Solas woke up to.

 

Solas woke up to a world with little magic...A world where Titans slept, Dwarves are sundered, Great Dragons are mere beasts, Elves are weak shadows of themselves...A world where Spirits are feared, where there is massive conflict every 5 to 10 years, where mages are locked up in a tower...A world where there exists philosophies such as the Qun and a world that still practices slavery, especially of Elves...

 

To Solas, this world must have appeared to be like how our Inquisitors saw the future world in the quest In Hushed Whispers. The Inquisitors proceeds to undo it within an instant whereas Solas at least try to make sense of it.

 

In Solas' position, I think you know what most of us would choose.The more I think about it, the more I understand where Solas' and Corypheus' are coming from. I cannot hate them. I can dislike them out of a sense of self preservation but I would pity them as well.

 

The worst part is that the Inquisitor, in game, does what Solas and Corypheus do, albeit on a smaller scale. We traveled to the future, found a world that is abhorrent to us and sought to unmake it. We did so without hesitation, without doubt, without question and without any second thought to the people in that world. In fact, I think only Ameridan was the only person from the past who was okay with the future world.

 

The reality is that those who are calling for Solas' deaths and those who hate him are hypocrites, doubly so if they did the quest In Hushed Whispers. Upon further reflection, I do not want to kill Solas. I would stop him and only resort to killing him if there is no other choice. For the simple reason the Inquisitor is no different than Solas.

 

Personally, even I would do what Solas, Corypheus and Inquisitor did if I were put in their position. Without remorse, without hesitation and without fail. I would restore the world to what I knew unless if this alternate world is significantly superior in some way.

 

Now let us see all you self righteous hypocritical Inquisitors, especially those who did In Hushed Whispers, justify killing Solas or hating him...

 

 

Now now, before you say anything, I realize that a world where Corypheus wins or whatever is probably a world that not many would like. But still, the argument.....

[Kulyok]

If I had no loved one here? I'd do it tomorrow. Heck, I'd do it right now. And I'd probably do it despite the death of the loved one, if I were dying or very sick or in extreme pain.

[Vargeisa]

I think if I was immortal, the lifespan of mortals would become very unimportant to me. 

 

I mean, I don't really care if that fly in my room lives for 1 day or 2. It's not going to have a lasting effect on my life either way.

[actionhero112]

Sacrificing a number of people to create your ideal world is what lohgain did. I might understand that way of thinking, and try to redeem the individual but I'm not going to tolerate it. Solas will die before he's allowed to do such a thing.

 

So no I wouldn't. You preserve life if you have the power to do so. You don't commit genocide. 

 

So keep heiling your ancient elven master race Solas, we'll see if you're any more successful than your german counterpart. 

[Catche Jagger]

Oh, yeah. I get where he's coming from, just like I got where Loghain was coming from. If given the option in a future game, I'd prefer not to kill Solas. Despite the fact that I disagreed with him on many things, I found him to be respectable. His major flaws come from the one present in his very name: Pride.

Whenever he encounters a perceived wrong within society, he takes it upon himself to fix it, thinking that only he can fully comprehend the correct path. His goals are certainly altruistic, but they are clouded by his need to do things his way.

He kind of reminds me of Anders, in a way, except more rational and less annoying.

I think he'll be a great antagonist for next time around.

[vertigomez]

I do not believe that his motivations are selfish (or are made out of loneliness) given that he would be losing people he cares about (assuming he and your Inquisitor were friendly) for a people that now resent him, judging by the codex entries they wrote about him.
 
Most people do not progress beyond the conventional stage to post-conventional morality, meaning, most people consider personal stakes over what is best for the whole. (Consider a hypothetical scenario where you are forced to choose saving your most loved one over two other people, most people would save their loved one, even at the cost of the two other lives.) However, I believe Solas has post-conventional morality, meaning, he makes the choice that he believes is best for everyone, regardless of how it affects him personally.

But if anything, Solas is basing his decision on what's best for the few (elves) over the many (literally everyone else, including elves). That strikes me as incredibly conventional.

He's choosing "his people" over ALL people.

[Solas]

It's really not hard. His plan is only abhorrent (and yes I think it is completely abhorrent, and flawed and not well thought-out, and he must be stopped imo) because we [well, our PCs and the characters that we love] are on this side of the equation. 

 

It's his world or theirs. What do you think the Inquisitor did in the Redcliffe Future? Destroyed one world to bring back theirs. Was it a shitty world? Yes. Was it real to the people in it despite that? Yes. The Redcliffe Future wasn't real to us or the Inquisitor, but people still lived in it. It's the exact same thing with Solas. He's found himself in a world which to him, from his perspective, given the world he came from is a shitty world. It's real to the people in it despite it all, but it's not real to him. Them or us. It's basic survivalism and human nature.

 

He calls out the Inquisitor on this very fact: would you not also murder people to save your own? There are those who wouldn't, to be sure, but yeah. Ask someone, if to save their wife, or their brother, or their child, would they see two strangers murdered? Many people would choose no, but many others would react from raw emotion rather than logical '1 vs many' thinking and would see the death of 2 strangers to save the one they love.

 

One day, you wake up and find your hometown was somehow destroyed. It turns out that centuries have passed (WTF??), and a new town has formed in its place with not just your own race but some new ones too - cats and dogs have become sentient (WTF????). In the old town, yeah there was some horrible stuff like corrupt politicians and a high crime rate, but also everyone had PHDs and superpowers. In the new town, yeah there are some people living happily, but 90% of people are effectively-lobotomized, there are regular plagues and wars, and your racial group is subjugated under the heel of now-sentient cat and dog overlords (WTF???????). This new world is an unreal, waking nightmare to you. You'd struggle to see cat and dogs as human-like people when only yesterday they were mere animals. Oh, and also, it was all your fault. If you could somehow push a button and reset it all and bring back your hometown, wouldn't you? This new place isn't real after all, not really. It's freakin hell on earth crazy town

 

Now go back to the wife-brother-child scenario up there. Now the choice is your loved one or two dogs who have overnight-to-you become sentient. Now what? Just yesterday, dogs did not have personhood to you.

 

It's a sick horrible scenario to find yourself in and a sick choice to have to make, and I think he's wrong, but I can see why him and some others would do what he's doing.

 

In his position my Inquisitor would do the same thing. The entire premise she's built on is "is an ass and would murder non-elves to save/protect elves", "protect elves at any cost". In this regard she's just like Solas. Solas is not a monster but the man in the mirror or on the other side of the coin. Him and the Inquisitor are in opposition because they both are representative avatars of two different worlds, and only one world can Be, the one that Was or the one that Is. And specific to mine and him, now they're in opposition because she stands for HER elves, the modern elves, while he is for HIS elves, the ancient ones.

In his position I'd probably definitely have a mental breakdown tbh thank god I'll never be in such a scenario cause waaat