225 réponses à ce sujet

[Aravasia]

Two people on different threads made a rather interesting argument that Solas's decision is not too different from the Inquisitor's decision in the mage quest In Hushed Whispers, to destroy the future world and restore the world that they knew because it was wrong to them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now now, before you say anything, I realize that a world where Corypheus wins or whatever is probably a world that not many would like. But still, the argument.....

Coincidentally, I did not think twice about not going back in time in that quest, and as the posts you mentioned, I imagine few did. In fact, that time did not feel 'real' to me, which is again, coincidentally, exactly what is said with Solas, It was like an alternate reality, however, meaning, the events actually would not have happened. I do not imagine Solas is planning time travel in order to to make the modern era 'never happen,' at least from how he described his plans. Which means, the destruction of the world would happen, and, is not just some branching event in an alternate timeline, it would be apart of 'real' timeline. Hence why, Solas would likely feel more guilt over it, rather than if he just went back in time and prevented the current reality from ever being formed.

 

There is as well the matter of how far into the future it was. With the Redcliffe scenario, most of the people that existed the year before have likely died, or, are in the process of dying. I am certain that some people may have been born in the timeline, but likely not as many that would have been otherwise. By going back in time, the Inquisitor is saving these people. I do not believe that Solas's plan constitutes the saving of any elves that died as a result of his past actions. 

 

Even though the scenarios are different, I do believe that that is exactly how Solas feels about it. When he first woke up, he did not even imagine trying to just change this world instead of destroying it. And as you mentioned, I do not imagine it occurred to him that this world was actually 'real.' Which may have changed after his time with the Inquisition. 

[Rekkampum]

Without question. FOR THE QUN!

[rpgfan321]

Argh, I love fandoms like Dragon Age where you can find such good philosophical discussions XD

 

I don't agree with Solas' plan at all, but I do sympathize where he is coming from. It's clear he does not like the state of the world to even hating it. Once you bring that abhorrent feeling of hatred into any thought, things really become black and white. 

 

Obviously, modern Thedas doesn't have anyone for Solas (minus romanced Lavellans). Dalish doesn't accept him. The city elves don't accept him. Humans belittle him because he is an elf even though to him that's something to be respected and revered. He has no one to relate to in order to humanize Thedas and grow attachment to give the world value. And what's worse is that he does not cling to the hope and is so ready to give up on that hope in the future that he awoke to.

 

If he romanced Lavellan or came to respect the Inquisitor, he found some good but not enough. It's obvious he's going to outlive modern Thedas and Lavellan because his biology is different. So, what happens when romanced Lavellan dies of old age? Then who does he have left? Rest of Inquisition members who dies before him anyway? Left alone in a world where slavery and the Qun exists? He's going to be alone again.

 

So, if he brings back his old world, then there is chance where he'll be among his people who are familiar, who are like him, and acknowledge him more than modern Thedas acknowledges him. Being forever alone versus a chance to be acknowledged and be fully accepted is enough to give anyone pause.

Personally, I would not choose to do what Solas is going to do because I still believe in humanity and hold out hope (I'm an optimist!) that even if the world is crap things are going to work out for the better.

[Bombadyl]

In the vein of Hushed Whispers, DA4 hypothetical.

 

As we are drinking our misery away in some dank coastal tavern, a mysterious figure hands us a pouch with a note that says, "How it once was, it can be again".  In the pouch is a gem that shows you life before the cataclysmic event that created the dark and dismal world you now live in, full of roaming demons, evil spirits, and elf lords who have enslaved humans, Dwarves, and Quanari alike.

 

Now, you have grown up in this world, you have family, friends and may even be married with children.  Knowing an event in your childhood changed the world into this dark world of subjugation, oppressive overlords, etc...  do you now set off to restore the world as it once was, even if it means losing your loved ones and all those you care about, in exchange for a world in which you might find yourself as some low born tanner being oppressed by some human land owner or perhaps a high born yourself?  

 

Perhaps you wish to right the world you live in by destroying those who oppress you and make the best of it.

 

I suspect most people, having played DA series will opt to restore the world to a state in which it is currently, but if you were not aware of our world, it would certainly have an effect on how you place things in a framework of understanding. 

 

btw, bioware, if you use that, just send me a free copy of the next installment, I'm good with that.

[Aravasia]

*Snip*  - cats and dogs have become sentient. *Snip*

In this scenario, and with the consideration that I am an immortal god with magical powers, I would try to re-build the modern society, rather than completely destroy it. And, I would believe it is possible, because in our world, human society has evidently evolved over-time, and other societies could again. I think part of the problem for Solas comes from the concept that Elven society is described as 'unchanging' likely meaning social structures stayed mostly constant. For example, 3,000 years of elven society likely did not evolve as much as 3,000 years in our society (roughly, the beginning of the Roman empire to the modern era.) And thus, he cannot imagine a society evolving enough for the better. 

 

Also, does Solas actually have any loved ones in the ancient elves? From what we've seen, he seems to be killing them all anyway (Mythal, Felassan.) I think it's possible that the only person left that he actually has a personal connection to is the Inquisitor (whether that connection is friend or foe.) Which leads me to believe that he is not taking the 'loved one' factor into consideration.

[Solas]

Would you really though? Do you believe yourself to realistically possess that mental fortitude? Solas is an immortal god-like entity to be sure but it's also apparent that in a way he's kind of checked out, in that he's completely or almost completely dissociated.

 

I agree that his long-lived span and the nature of immortal beings' society definitely factors in.

 

The 'loved one' scenarios I posed weren't intended to make the statement that he has loved ones, rather the people in the scenarios were more like.. metaphors for worlds, ways of inviting people to look at things from how he's experiencing them.

 

Mythal is long-dead and was murdered already. The Flemeth creature that Solas dispatches is not truly Mythal, not truly his friend - both interpersonally/psychologically (as in how it would seem to him) and factually speaking. Mythal is dead. Flemeth is a fragment of a fragment that merged with a human woman (a sentient dog...) and became something tantamount to an abomination. Mythal-that-was, the one he speaks of with such reverence, was a great mother-protector and avatar of justice. This thing in the present is a twisted scrap of her bent on vengeance, almost like the spirit of Justice corrupted by Anders into Vengeance (technically Janders).

 

Felassan had to die because he had essentially joined the other side and decided that sentient dogs were people like him and that their world is actually the one that should exist. I agree with Felassan but that's why Solas offed him.

[Aravasia]

Argh, I love fandoms like Dragon Age where you can find such good philosophical discussions XD

 

I have found a kindred soul.

 

 

I don't agree with Solas' plan at all, but I do sympathize where he is coming from. It's clear he does not like the state of the world to even hating it. Once you bring that abhorrent feeling of hatred into any thought, things really become black and white. 

 

Obviously, modern Thedas doesn't have anyone for Solas (minus romanced Lavellans). Dalish doesn't accept him. The city elves don't accept him. Humans belittle him because he is an elf even though to him that's something to be respected and revered. He has no one to relate to in order to humanize Thedas and grow attachment to give the world value. And what's worse is that he does not cling to the hope and is so ready to give up on that hope in the future that he awoke to.

 

If he romanced Lavellan or came to respect the Inquisitor, he found some good but not enough. It's obvious he's going to outlive modern Thedas and Lavellan because his biology is different. So, what happens when romanced Lavellan dies of old age? Then who does he have left? Rest of Inquisition members who dies before him anyway? Left alone in a world where slavery and the Qun exists? He's going to be alone again.

 

So, if he brings back his old world, then there is chance where he'll be among his people who are familiar, who are like him, and acknowledge him more than modern Thedas acknowledges him. Being forever alone versus a chance to be acknowledged and be fully accepted is enough to give anyone pause.

Personally, I would not choose to do what Solas is going to do because I still believe in humanity and hold out hope (I'm an optimist!) that even if the world is crap things are going to work out for the better.

Is Solas actually doing this because he believes the world would be better for him? From my understanding, he seems to be primarily doing it for 'his people,' rather than himself. I am not certain that he would actually be able to enjoy the world he created with the apparent guilt he appears to feel. In fact, I would not be surprised if his plans included some type of 'suicide mission.'

[jedidotflow]

Two people on different threads made a rather interesting argument that Solas's decision is not too different from the Inquisitor's decision in the mage quest In Hushed Whispers, to destroy the future world and restore the world that they knew because it was wrong to them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now now, before you say anything, I realize that a world where Corypheus wins or whatever is probably a world that not many would like. But still, the argument.....

 

Those arguments are moot because what Inqy is trying to do is go back home and prevent that future to pass. Everyone in that future already exists in current-day Thedas (or they still haven't been born). It's not the same thing as what Solas is trying to do, which can potentially murder everyone that exists right now.

[vertigomez]

Those arguments are moot because what Inqy is trying to do is go back home and prevent that future to pass. Everyone in that future already exists in current-day Thedas (or they still haven't been born). It's not the same thing as what Solas is trying to do, which can potentially murder everyone that exists right now.

That's what I was thinking. Solas isn't trying to hop back in time - he's trying to create the old world anew.

[pdusen]

Solas' own comparison, to waking up in a world where everyone is tranquil, is enough to understand his viewpoint. I would find such a world absolutely maddening. 

 

Of course, that doesn't actually justify the destruction he says it will take to fix it, and I aim to prove him wrong. But his motivation is perfectly reasonable.

[Aravasia]

Would you really though? Do you believe yourself to realistically possess that mental fortitude? Solas is an immortal god-like entity to be sure but it's also apparent that in a way he's kind of checked out, in that he's completely or almost completely dissociated.

 

I agree that his long-lived span and the nature of immortal beings' society definitely factors in.

 

The 'loved one' scenarios I posed weren't intended to make the statement that he has loved ones, rather the people in the scenarios were more like.. metaphors for worlds, ways of inviting people to look at things from how he's experiencing them.

 

Mythal is long-dead and was murdered already. The Flemeth creature that Solas dispatches is not truly Mythal, not truly his friend - both interpersonally/psychologically (as in how it would seem to him) and factually speaking. Mythal is dead. Flemeth is a fragment of a fragment that merged with a human woman (a sentient dog...) and became something tantamount to an abomination.

 

Felassan had to die because he had essentially joined the other side and decided that sentient dogs were people like him and that their world is actually the one that should exist. I agree with Felassan but that's why Solas offed him.

Solas certainly has higher emotional stability and perseverance than most people. I do not believe that the average person would be able to endure what he has, not even close. With my current life-span, I would say no. With an immortal life-span, even if I was not proactively trying to change the society, I would certainly spend a few hundred, or at least more than just one year observing, to see if it has the potential, or is evolving for the better (most societies in the past have.) Though, as I mentioned in my previous post Solas likely does not have experience with rapidly changing societies. Ironically, whereas most would believe that being immortal would allow you to do anything, when you have all the time in the world to do anything.. everyone postpones actually doing something. Whereas mortal lives are proactive with the motivation that they have a limited time to accomplish anything. (Exception obviously being Solas and his hasty current decisions.) 

 

I as well understand about the loved one scenario. I too, included that in my original question because I imagine that most people would take this into account, however, I do not believe that Solas does. (In this way, his motivations are almost entirely unselfish.) 

 

I know that Mythal was not the original Mythal in the sense, but Solas certainly seemed to recognize her as such in the post credits scene. And they were fairly intimate, which gives me the impression that she would have been a 'loved one.' 

 

I understand what Solas's motivations in killing them were. I only meant to elaborate on the thought that Solas does not seem to be taking personal feelings into account when it comes to carrying out his plans. 

[Solas]

Oh for sure he recognizes the Mythalness in her and for sure they were close. 

[BansheeOwnage]

The question is, whether Solas's disapproval comes from his dislike for actual humans, or his dislike for the current society. After all, from how I perceived it, he did not appear to favor the modern elves over any of the other races, and from what I understand, he has no intention of saving them. Of course, the ancient elves did not appear to be paragons of goodness and light either. I think southern Thedasian society, even dominated by humans, is the first to banish slavery (without something equally as bad, such as dwarven casteless, or Qunari indoctrination.)

It's less about Solas not liking modern society and more to do with him seeing the current population as less than people. He believes everyone except the ancients lacks something intrinsic that makes them people. Sort of like the question of what makes us human and as most people see it, worth more than other animals. It's a superiority complex just as much as the Reapers have. He sees us as most people see tranquil or animals.

 

No, because it's not my call. I don't get to make decisions like that for billions of people - I don't get to kill billions of men, women, and children because I think this new world could be for the better.

That's the thing though, Solas doesn't really think he's killing a single person.

[Aravasia]

But if anything, Solas is basing his decision on what's best for the few (elves) over the many (literally everyone else, including elves). That strikes me as incredibly conventional.

He's choosing "his people" over ALL people.

 

You are right on this. I actually thought about about this factor before-hand. He is choosing a smaller group which he personally identifies with over the majority. 

In that way, his decision does come across as biased, and not even just utilitarian. 

 

Another thought to include may just be that Solas considers the ancient elves a more intelligent life-form, thus their value outweighs the difference in numbers.

Would you choose to save ten dogs over a hundred ants? Would you choose a hundred humans over a thousand cows? One needs only to look at the factory farming industry to conclude how most people would answer this question. 

[SwobyJ]

Instead of removing the Veil I'd rather mutate it into something more awesome.

 

And I kinda think that'll be the result in the series anyway.

 

WHAT IS GREEEENNNNN

 

I think Solas is being played by Mythal too.

 

Being 'nudged' like an Anders towards vengeance.

 

Save him from himself.

[Aravasia]

It's less about Solas not liking modern society and more to do with him seeing the current population as less than people. He believes everyone except the ancients lack something intrinsic that makes them people. Sort of like the question of what makes us human and as most people see it, worth more than other animals. It's a superiority complex just as much as the Reapers have. He sees us as most people see tranquil or animals.

 

That's the thing though, Solas doesn't really think he's killing a single person.

I was contemplating using another word when I wrote that, I meant more to reflect upon the idea of whether Solas does not see them as people based purely upon the fact that they are not ancient elves, which would, I suppose, be racist in nature, or, if he does not see them as people because of their personalities - and thus societal - traits.

[rpgfan321]

I have found a kindred soul.

Thank you :3

 

Is Solas actually doing this because he believes the world would be better for him? From my understanding, he seems to be primarily doing it for 'his people,' rather than himself. I am not certain that he would actually be able to enjoy the world he created with the apparent guilt he appears to feel. In fact, I would not be surprised if his plans included some type of 'suicide mission.'

Well I don't remember him saying specifically benefiting him, but no one sentient does things that doesn't affect themselves personally in my honest opinion. He is doing it for his people, the ancient elves, and I am sure he despise all the rest of Evanuris who was not Mythal. When he said "I had plans", I am pretty sure it involves him killing them or something even more horrid.

 

Solas is really stuck in two bad decisions he has to make, but I see it as what's the necessary evil or what is less bad to him based on having the self knowledge and strong moral values that he has. Now that I think about it, to me, Solas is idealistic (I always thought him pragmatic).

 

Also I'm pretty sure he says he's going on a path that can only lead to his death to romanced Lavellan, so a suicide mission is very plausible. It's clear he does not enjoy the choices he feels like he has to make, and I'm pretty sure if he succeeds and brings his People back to power, while rest of the new Age of ancient elves prospers, he will very much remember the cost he had to make.

[Bombadyl]

Solas' own comparison, to waking up in a world where everyone is tranquil, is enough to understand his viewpoint. I would find such a world absolutely maddening. 

 

Of course, that doesn't actually justify the destruction he says it will take to fix it, and I aim to prove him wrong. But his motivation is perfectly reasonable.

 

I can certainly understand his sentiment of waking to a world full of tranquil, as intelligent people often appear as crazy people to ignorant people.  Most people, even in real life prefer to just say, "must be God's will that this happened", because no person can know the mind of another, let alone the mind of someone who has the experience and wisdom of millennia, even those who made bad decisions.  How many people have or had cheating spouses they have known for years, that looked them in the eye with loving eyes and flat out lied and were believed?   We think we can 'know' the mind of others, but this is merely a story we tell ourselves to sate the discomfort of not knowing.

 

 

This is part of the reason I placed an analogy, whether good or not doesn't so much matter, but to try and allow people to contextualize a similar scenario if they were in a Solas type situation.   Granted Solas set in motion and created a chain of events where he awoke to find a world full of tranquil and wishes to try and restore it to a world he once knew, something we likely would not have the opportunity to do. 

 

Whatever the case may be, I wouldn't mind seeing this sort of moral dilemma appearing in future installments, as at the very least, it makes for wonderful discussion.

[BansheeOwnage]

Instead of removing the Veil I'd rather mutate it into something more awesome.

 

And I kinda think that'll be the result in the series anyway.

 

WHAT IS GREEEENNNNN

 

I think Solas is being played by Mythal too.

 

Being 'nudged' like an Anders towards vengeance.

 

Save him from himself.

I think he's being played somewhat by Mythal too, even if it's just so she can finally exact vengeance on the remaining Evanuris. You'd think though, that The Protector might not be overly pleased with the destruction of the current population in its entirety. Mythal, or at least Flemeth, seems to care enough about the people of the present day.

 

I was contemplating using another word when I wrote that, I meant more to reflect upon the idea of whether Solas does not see them as people based purely upon the fact that they are not ancient elves, which would, I suppose, be racist in nature, or, if he does not see them as people because of their personalities - and thus societal - traits.

I don't think it's racist per se, it's... superiorist? It's not that he doesn't see them as people because they're not ancient elves, but because they lack something the ancient elves (and I'm guessing dwarves) happened to have. If everyone still had that, he'd have no race-preference, at least in terms of objective value, not things like attraction.

[megageeklizzy]

I agree with Solas.  Think about stray cats.  I actually have a stray cat wandering around my house right now, and the questions I am asking myself about what to do with him are similar to the questions Solas must have asked himself to come to his decision.  In the metaphor, Solas is me, the inquisitor is my cat, and the strays are mortals Solas doesn't know.  My apartment is the world Solas will restore when he destroys the veil.

 

I didn't care about stray cats very much until I got a cat of my own.  Now that I have one, who is like a member of my family, I feel a lot more sympathy for strays.  I see them, emaciated, flea-bitten, and weak, and I feel bad for them.  I live in an apartment, and I'm not allowed to have more than one pet, so I can't save them by bringing them in to live with me.  My options are to let nature take its course or to take them to an animal shelter.  Animal shelters euthanize animals after a while.  If I take the strays to an animal shelter, I am essentially killing them, but I am doing so mercifully and  humanely.  If I let nature take its course, not only will they live short, painful lives, but they will reproduce, making many, many more generations suffer the same fate.  In the end, it is best for the cats to be taken to the shelter and live peacefully for a little while before they die.

I think what Solas is doing is actually pretty selfless.  While I recognize that it would be better for the strays to be taken to a shelter, I am too selfish to actually take them, because I look at their faces, see how much they look like my own cat, and can't bring myself to do the humane thing.  Solas has forced himself to look past that to see the bigger picture of how his plan will mean less suffering in the long haul.

I think he's being played somewhat by Mythal too, even if it's just so she can finally exact vengeance on the remaining Evanuris. You'd think though, that The Protector might not be overly pleased with the destruction of the current population in its entirety. Mythal, or at least Flemeth, seems to care enough about the people of the present day.

 

I don't think it's racist per se, it's... superiorist? It's not that he doesn't see them as people because they're not ancient elves, but because they lack something the ancient elves (and I'm guessing dwarves) happened to have. If everyone still had that, he'd have no race-preference, at least in terms of objective value, not things like attraction.

I think Flemeth willingly gave her power to Solas, and agrees with what he believes he has to do.  While she has been helpful to our protagonists in the past, she only helped them if they would do something in return for her.  I don't think she is much different than Solas in her beliefs about what should happen in the future.  If she did not want Solas to take her power, she would not have stayed by the eluvian in the end scene of the main game, as she knew he would come.  She also indicates in Origins that she not only knows more than the Warden about a lot of things, but she also suggests that in a situation where the world is ending, she would lie to people to let them be happy, which is very similar to what Solas seems to be doing at the end of Trespasser.(1) She even hints at knowing about such a plot to destroy the world early in Origins, though I would guess that is a coincidence, as I don't think the writers were planning to make her Mythal that early in the series.(2)

 

1. (The Warden approaches Flemeth after Morrigan asks him to kill her.)

Warden: I want the truth.

Flemeth: The truth! As if it were nothing! How like a man.

Flemeth: No, no. Far better the lie. Far better the comfort of blankets and shadows and a mother's love.

2. (The soon-to-be Warden, Alistair, and the two unfortunate men who later die in the joining go to Flemeth's hut to retrieve Grey Warden treaties.)

 Barris: If she's really a witch, do you want to make her mad?

Flemeth: There's a smart lad. Sadly irrelevant to the larger scheme of things, but it is not I who decides. Believe what you will.

 

[AstraDrakkar]

Since I am NOT immortal it would be impossible to see things from his point of view. I'll just say, the ends don't justify the means.

 

I'll also add that since the PC of the next game probably won't be able to see things from his point of view, the only logical solution is to attempt to destroy him. Leaving him alive just seems far too risky for any mortal on Thedas.

[Wahed89]

I think we are going to see a Mythal vs Solas situation in the next game.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Solas's view obviously seems drastic (and perhaps slightly insane) to outside viewers, so I have been trying to think of a hypothetical scenario in which would allow others to question whether they could ever understand Solas's decision. As such, my questions follow as:

 

Say that you were given the choice to replace this world with the Dragon Age world (or whatever other ideal fantasy world - Mass Effect, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, etc.) even though this would result in the destruction of this world - and most likely everyone in it. Would you do it?

 

To add to that, would you still do it if it meant the death of all of your loved ones? Or, would you do it if you had no loved ones here?

 

 

 

Alternatively, say that this world was replaced with a dystopian world (this is likely different for everyone, so, just imagine a world that would be horrible to you.) Again, would you destroy that world to bring this one back? What if you had friends or a loved one there?

 

This is, of course, ignoring the guilt portion of being responsible that goes along with Solas's decision. But I am curious what others would do in these scenarios.  

No, I would not commit worldwide genocide. 

[RynJ]

I think he's being played somewhat by Mythal too, even if it's just so she can finally exact vengeance on the remaining Evanuris. You'd think though, that The Protector might not be overly pleased with the destruction of the current population in its entirety. Mythal, or at least Flemeth, seems to care enough about the people of the present day.

 

I don't think it's racist per se, it's... superiorist? It's not that he doesn't see them as people because they're not ancient elves, but because they lack something the ancient elves (and I'm guessing dwarves) happened to have. If everyone still had that, he'd have no race-preference, at least in terms of objective value, not things like attraction.

 

Considering the comparison to the Tranquil, it seems like he more sees them as beings who aren't even truly alive. When I look at a Tranquil in this game, I don't think them beneath everyone else. I just find them sad and think that it's a completely miserable existence. Something inherent to humanity is missing from them. Were I to stumble into a world of what were effectively Tranquil to me, I think maybe I'd want to reset it too, especially for a world of people I knew and cared about (in reality I'd probably just lie down and give up but I'd think about it at least). And yes, it might just be a matter of lack of perspective. Maybe the Tranquil do think and feel and have worth in their own way in that scenario, and somehow I just don't see that.  And this is all minus the guilt Solas carries from being the one who created the world he sees this way in the first place.

 

Honestly, Solas makes a scary amount of sense. I'd tentatively venture to say, tapping into my cynicism, that most people would try to reset the world in this scenario (if they didn't just go mad), and many would do it with less hesitation. And a lot of that would be lack of perspective, which I have every intention of trying to force on Solas because my Inquisitor likes her world and it definitely does not deserve destruction. We can only hope we can beat that into Solas' head without having to kill him (those of us who like him, anyways. All others--have at the murderknife, I suppose).

[TeffexPope]

I don't think I need to substitute anything for this scenario.  The scenario itself...Solas's view does have a certain rough logic to it.  Especially how messed up the Dragon Age is.  It was the same quetion first posited by BSG, is humanity worth saving?  Its something so extremly racist it almost bends back on itself whereas if we, as individuals, and as a people are inherently flawed and fallen creatures then maybe the best solution is to wipe the slate clean and start over?  Its certainly an interesting philosophical point, and very understandable.  Dosen't mean I am just gonna let him do it.  But at the end of the day I intend to prove him wrong. 

In that case, it's little different than what Seeker Lucius wanted to do, and also Corypheus. Just because Solas realizes or has sympathy for those it would destroy doesn't necessarily make it better.