My problem with Solas' delimma is that he wants to replace a world he thinks might be terrible with one he knows is terrible, yet longs for anyway. He's not replacing bad with better, he's replacing uncomfortable with comfortable.
Is comfort a valid reason for mass murder?
I think Flemeth willingly gave her power to Solas, and agrees with what he believes he has to do. While she has been helpful to our protagonists in the past, she only helped them if they would do something in return for her. I don't think she is much different than Solas in her beliefs about what should happen in the future. If she did not want Solas to take her power, she would not have stayed by the eluvian in the end scene of the main game, as she knew he would come. She also indicates in Origins that she not only knows more than the Warden about a lot of things, but she also suggests that in a situation where the world is ending, she would lie to people to let them be happy, which is very similar to what Solas seems to be doing at the end of Trespasser.(1) She even hints at knowing about such a plot to destroy the world early in Origins, though I would guess that is a coincidence, as I don't think the writers were planning to make her Mythal that early in the series.(2)
At first I thought so, but I'm still not sure if she did. Either way, she sends something through the eluvian before Solas absorbs her, so I think she yet lingers. Solas may have taken her power, but not her soul. At least, he gave no indication he did. As it happens, I think they always planned her to be Mythal, just as they always planned to have Solas' arc, at least roughly. She even has Hawke take her to the altar of Mythal to be restored.
Considering the comparison to the Tranquil, it seems like he more sees them as beings who aren't even truly alive. When I look at a Tranquil in this game, I don't think them beneath everyone else. I just find them sad and think that it's a completely miserable existence. Something inherent to humanity is missing from them. Were I to stumble into a world of what were effectively Tranquil to me, I think maybe I'd want to reset it too, especially for a world of people I knew and cared about (in reality I'd probably just lie down and give up but I'd think about it at least).
Yes, that's what I meant. I was just trying to say that we don't know exactly what he thinks separates the ancients from contemporary people besides a vague idea of a connection to something greater, which does make a tranquil a good analogy. He thinks we lack something that makes us people just like we think animals lack something that would make them people. Something hard to define. Although in my opinion, it's a combination of sapience and sentience. Are there even greater things? Probably.
My problem with Solas' delimma is that he wants to replace a world he thinks might be terrible with one he knows is terrible, yet longs for anyway. He's not replacing bad with better, he's replacing uncomfortable with comfortable.
Is comfort a valid reason for mass murder?
Yes. His world was just as much of a utopia as current-day Thedas, which is to say, not even close. But it's not necessarily about comfort, but simply restoring the elves in terms of... evolution? Superiority? Now I feel like I'm playing Mass Effect. Well, no surprise there, with Weekes at the helm 
I think he would simply prefer a world with problems full of advanced people over a world with problems with devolved people. For lack of better terms.
Nah, Solas is a killer - crazy elf god bastard that needs to die ASAP. Period.
Actually, he has barely done anything really bad. Yet. He's redeemable.
Solas always wanted one thing: to save HIS world. The Veil was his "heroic" solution to imprison the tyrannical elven "gods". Except it all went horridly right.
When Solas woke up millennia later, he realised he failed to save the world. So just like the Inquisitor in " In Hushed Whispers " he's trying to fix thing.
If you want the moral argument, ask yourself - why do we think it was moral for the Inquisitor to eradicate that bad future from existence and kill all those who lived in it? Because we think that's an abominable hell - a world that shouldn't exist.
Welcome to Solas's POV. What he sees right now looks like that shattered and poisoned world.
I really don't understand this point of view.
Everyone is In Hushed Whispers hates the new world.All your companions are willing to die.
Even the main villain is trying to go back before the Breach got out of control.
There are venatori letters indicating there's an apocalypse outside , demons are killing everything.
Solas wakes up and join people who are saving the world , he become friends with them.
There is nothing like this in the dark future even Alexius says "it's just ruins and death".
There's a huge difference between preventing apocalypse (dark future /inquisitor) and causing it (Solas/tearing down the veil)
I find it very interesting that Solas decides that he'll tear down the Veil to destroy the world to restore the ancient elvhen given that he brings up how you plan on using the Well of Sorrows using the future and you can choose to bring things back the way they were or move forward to try and do something better.
Solas always wanted one thing: to save HIS world. The Veil was his "heroic" solution to imprison the tyrannical elven "gods". Except it all went horridly right.
When Solas woke up millennia later, he realised he failed to save the world. So just like the Inquisitor in " In Hushed Whispers " he's trying to fix thing.
If you want the moral argument, ask yourself - why do we think it was moral for the Inquisitor to eradicate that bad future from existence and kill all those who lived in it? Because we think that's an abominable hell - a world that shouldn't exist.
Welcome to Solas's POV. What he sees right now looks like that shattered and poisoned world.
The fact that it's time travel muddles everything up. My interpretation was that the Inquisitor simply went back to their timeline and stopped that timeline from becoming dark- they didn't destroy the Dark Future. But I don't know, time travel is confusing because different stories do it different ways.
I find it very interesting that Solas decides that he'll tear down the Veil to destroy the world to restore the ancient wlvhen given that he brings up how you plan on using the Well of Sorrows using the future and you can choose to bring things back the way they were or move forward to try and do something better.
Yeah, it is rather fitting since that's the decision he has to make. Luckily, I told him I'd make something better from what was. Obviously he disagreed, but I tried. I will show you you're wrong, Solas!
I wish people would stop bringing up In Hushed Whispers when talking about Solas, because it is a totally different scenario. Depending on how time travel works in DAI, it simply either didn't happen (which means no loss of life as everyone alive in the future is still alive in the present) or it continued on unabated as an AU, sans Dorian and the Inquisitor. I don't quite understand what people think happened that would make it a good comparison- the timeline was only linear for Dorian and the Inquisitor. When they went back, they prevented the future from happening in the first place, they didn't blow it up or anything.
Anyway, as for Solas's perspective...in the words of Detective Jake Peralta- cool motive, still murder. He is a single man who wants to force the world to conform with his ideal, despite the fact that his ideal resulted in the world almost being destroyed before and despite being demonstrably uninformed as to the quirks of modern Thedas (such as darkspawn/the Blight). If he can't stand modern society and the sentient housepets that live in it, he can return to sleep and dream about a sanitized version of what he used to have, because that will be far closer to what he wants than what he's likely to receive on the other side of tearing down the Veil.
I wish people would stop bringing up In Hushed Whispers when talking about Solas, because it is a totally different scenario. Depending on how time travel works in DAI, it simply either didn't happen (which means no loss of life as everyone alive in the future is still alive in the present) or it continued on unabated as an AU, sans Dorian and the Inquisitor. I don't quite understand what people think happened that would make it a good comparison- the timeline was only linear for Dorian and the Inquisitor. When they went back, they prevented the future from happening in the first place, they didn't blow it up or anything.
Listen to Leliana: it was real, people suffered. There was loss of life, it was not a pretend future that did not exist.
We get an easy transition to our world, because of the plot armor (obviously the designers want us to come back), and because everyone we meet, from Solas to Fiona, say that this world is a horrible abomination and there's no wrong in destroying it completely, with its alive inhabitants and their memories. (Well, Solas WOULD say that, wouldn't he). But the comparison is apt, in my opinion - especially if you look at it from some Denerim noble's viewpoint. He probably wants the past back, but him - this, current him - would be dead, and his lovers and friends would die, too.
Listen to Leliana: it was real, people suffered. There was loss of life, it was not a pretend future that did not exist.
We get an easy transition to our world, because of the plot armor (obviously the designers want us to come back), and because everyone we meet, from Solas to Fiona, say that this world is a horrible abomination and there's no wrong in destroying it completely, with its alive inhabitants and their memories. (Well, Solas WOULD say that, wouldn't he). But the comparison is apt, in my opinion - especially if you look at it from some Denerim noble's viewpoint. He probably wants the past back, but him - this, current him - would be dead, and his lovers and friends would die, too.
I don't think that was the point. It doesn't work because it involved time travel, which Solas' plan does not. Depending on the details of time travel in this universe (which we don't know), the Dark Future either never happened, or simply continued on after Dorian and Quizzy leave. In no scenario does it explode. They just stop it from happening in their own timeline.
Changing world in hope it will be better no. I think synthesis ending in ME3 is sick and wrong, forcing something on everyone. Same thin with Solas from some point of view who lives in this world and know only this world. From Solas perspective yes it's still "wrong" but i understand him and it make sense, he give great example, all people to him are tranquil. And what we think is good for tranquil to make him not tranquil.
Solas always wanted one thing: to save HIS world. The Veil was his "heroic" solution to imprison the tyrannical elven "gods". Except it all went horridly right.
When Solas woke up millennia later, he realised he failed to save the world. So just like the Inquisitor in " In Hushed Whispers " he's trying to fix thing.
If you want the moral argument, ask yourself - why do we think it was moral for the Inquisitor to eradicate that bad future from existence and kill all those who lived in it? Because we think that's an abominable hell - a world that shouldn't exist.
Welcome to Solas's POV. What he sees right now looks like that shattered and poisoned world.
Inquisitor: We have to go back and stop this from happening!
Dorian: Think about this for a second. Maybe this was meant to happen.
Inquisitor: So…you think that we should just settle into this new reality and see how it plays out?
Dorian: Precisely. Putting aside that this dark future is entirely of Corypheus' doing and we're only here because Alexius foolishly hurled us into the future, and in going back we may simply undo the course of events that led to everyone suffering a hellish world and painful deaths, who says we have the right to undo the course of time? Maybe this will see the world anew………someday.
Inquisitor: Perhaps you're right.
[20 minutes later, both Inquisitor and Dorian are captured and used to cultivate red lyrium and die]
I can absolutely see the parallells with In hushed whispers. It's especially interesting with how easily your Inquisitor can dismiss the future state as "not real" and "something that should never come to pass". You disappeared one (?) year ago and this was the course of history where you the inquisitor was not present. I see it as quite natural to want to go back to the point in time where you disappeared/were sent into the future and create the future where you were present and could stop Corypheus.
Who is to say that the alternative future with Corypheus "winning" were not the catharsis the world needed to go through to reach a "better" state (whatever we mean with that... more diversity and new races, peace, love and understanding etc). But it would mean that most people were killed in the process to reach this state. The inquisitor does not hesitate to go back in time to save his/her people. The argument is not spot on as we don't know what the long term effects of Corypheus winning actually is, but it's an interesting chain of thought :x.
Listen to Leliana: it was real, people suffered. There was loss of life, it was not a pretend future that did not exist.
We get an easy transition to our world, because of the plot armor (obviously the designers want us to come back), and because everyone we meet, from Solas to Fiona, say that this world is a horrible abomination and there's no wrong in destroying it completely, with its alive inhabitants and their memories. (Well, Solas WOULD say that, wouldn't he). But the comparison is apt, in my opinion - especially if you look at it from some Denerim noble's viewpoint. He probably wants the past back, but him - this, current him - would be dead, and his lovers and friends would die, too.
That was Leliana in that timeline- she had experienced all of those things. Her point was that the Inquisitor and Dorian could not comprehend what she felt because it was an abstract to them due to their skipping over all the bad **** up until that point. Once they went back in time, only the Inquisitor and Dorian remembered what had happened to everyone. If it were really real, the companions who died would have remained dead and Leliana would have been dead or sick (tainted, I think).
Even supposing that the future is a discreet world that, like, explodes when the Inquisitor goes back in time, it's still different from what Solas is doing because all of those people are still alive elsewhere, and the Inquisitor is preserving that world. In Solas' plans, there's no alternative for the people who will die when he opens the Veil, no back up that will be preserved.
That was Leliana in that timeline- she had experienced all of those things. Her point was that the Inquisitor and Dorian could not comprehend what she felt because it was an abstract to them due to their skipping over all the bad **** up until that point. Once they went back in time, only the Inquisitor and Dorian remembered what had happened to everyone. If it were really real, the companions who died would have remained dead and Leliana would have been dead or sick (tainted, I think).
Even supposing that the future is a discreet world that, like, explodes when the Inquisitor goes back in time, it's still different from what Solas is doing because all of those people are still alive elsewhere, and the Inquisitor is preserving that world. In Solas' plans, there's no alternative for the people who will die when he opens the Veil, no back up that will be preserved.
People die this is what we do. If not Solas opening the veil human wars, darkspawn. And we see only bad how is it bad Solas destroying all darkspawn with army of spirits, and saving how many lives.
If the Goddess of love can't reach peoples hart, the God of war will take over and try in a rougher way to teach the love lesson.
If that fails the God of destruction takes over. And if the God of destruction is looming over the horizon a lot of people cry foul.
The majority is never responsible and so not enough individuals are either and round and round the merry go round spins untill lesson learnt.
If the Goddess of love can't reach peoples hart, the God of war will take over and try in a rougher way to teach the love lesson.
If that fails the God of destruction takes over. And if the God of destruction is looming over the horizon a lot of people cry foul.
The majority is never responsible and so not enough individuals are either and round and round the merry go round spins untill lesson learnt.
Why not both.
The fact that it's time travel muddles everything up. My interpretation was that the Inquisitor simply went back to their timeline and stopped that timeline from becoming dark- they didn't destroy the Dark Future. But I don't know, time travel is confusing because different stories do it different ways.
I really don't understand this point of view.
Everyone is In Hushed Whispers hates the new world.All your companions are willing to die.
Even the main villain is trying to go back before the Breach got out of control.
There are venatori letters indicating there's an apocalypse outside , demons are killing everything.
Solas wakes up and join people who are saving the world , he become friends with them.
There is nothing like this in the dark future even Alexius says "it's just ruins and death".
There's a huge difference between preventing apocalypse (dark future /inquisitor) and causing it (Solas/tearing down the veil)
I think using in hushed whispers Is deliberately misinterpreting what happened. As others have said, all the Inquisitor does is prevent it from happening. And by "it" I mean a completely irredeemable world that I think we all agree is not worth saving. It's a world where a mad man has taken power, has control of a huge demon army, and everyone the inquisitor knows agrees it has to be fixed. If the time line is linear and changing the past changes the future, literally nobody that is "good" would argue about doing it. The future people also would not know, feel or experience the past changing, they would just be. If it is not linear, then the inquisitor doesn't save that world at all and it continues for someone else to try and save.
Now compare that to solas' plan which will literally involve the destruction of the world and the deaths and suffering of many, or all, people. Given that the inquisition wants to stop it, it's clearly not agreed upon that this world isn't worth living or remaining in as in the future world above. It is literally one man, and potentially a few elven agents, who want to replace this world with another.
The only thing comparable between the two scenarios is that the inquisitor and Solas both want to save a past world. Their methods, means and circumstances do not match at all though.
Ugh, I friggin hate time travel.
Honestly, comparing the In Hush Whisper quest with Solas's viewpoint is rather overdoing it. There's so many factors that differentiate these two scenarios that it shouldn't even be compared at all. One of the most obvious difference being that while Solas is trying to undo a world he unintentionally created from his involvement, the Inquisitor was trying to undo a world created from his/her lack of involvement. Another big difference being that Solas willingly left the world for many years but the Inquisitor was forcibly transported out of it by the actions of a desperate man.
Solas always wanted one thing: to save HIS world. The Veil was his "heroic" solution to imprison the tyrannical elven "gods". Except it all went horridly right.
When Solas woke up millennia later, he realised he failed to save the world. So just like the Inquisitor in " In Hushed Whispers " he's trying to fix thing.
If you want the moral argument, ask yourself - why do we think it was moral for the Inquisitor to eradicate that bad future from existence and kill all those who lived in it? Because we think that's an abominable hell - a world that shouldn't exist.
Welcome to Solas's POV. What he sees right now looks like that shattered and poisoned world.
False Equivalence.
Solas isn't going back in time and causing the Elven empire not to fall.
When the Inquisitor's party returns from the future, they aren't killing the world to do it. The WORST you could paint is the conjecture that they might be preventing some of the people born in the intervening year from existing. Infants who would have been killed when the out of control breach and demonic invasion destroyed the world anyway. At the same time, they are giving everyone who died over the course of the previous year due to the circumstances surrounding the Breach a second chance at life. But absolute worst case, it's a 'needs of the many over needs of the few' situation.
Solas is knowingly and willfully murdering millions for the sake of thousands. And he is willing to subject those thousands to the possible rule of immortal mage-tyrants, if that's what it takes to make the world what he's comfortable with. He's willing to destroy the world just to get back the devil he knows, rather than put in the time and effort to get to know the world as it is.
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