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[Aravasia]

 

Solas isn't going back in time and causing the Elven empire not to fall.

 

 

 

 

But would anyone really feel any better if he was?

[Arakat]

But can we be sure that his plan doesn't involve time travel?

[KaiserShep]

But can we be sure that his plan doesn't involve time travel?

 

I don't suppose that really matters. In In Hushed Whispers, the Inquisitor and Dorian undid the effects of the time travel magic Alexius used on them. Stopping Solas from going back to screw with the timeline would be the same thing. 

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

But would anyone really feel any better if he was?

I'd feel better about him.

 

I'd still want to stop it, though, cus this world isn't beyond fixing/saving and he needs to lose the hubris that lets him think he can make these kinda of decisions unilaterally. But I *would* feel better cus at least he wouldn't be ok with killing everyone. There's a difference between being alive to know the suffering his current course will cause, and having just never known the suffering to begin with (via time travel likely making you either non-existent or you exist but are born into a different life).

 

Also, does he realize how much this plan is also going to screw over spirits? He actually considers them "real" now, afterall. Just look at his love for Cole or Wisdom.

 

Spirits are supposedly turned to demons due to the emotional influence of mortals. Solas makes a point of saying to Cassandra in banter that, as long as there is war, there will always be demons of hunger and rage, for example, b/c war results in those emotions. So, how does he think suddenly exposing the general Thedosian populace to the scary green hellscape that is the Fade and its unnerving (if not necessarily all scary) denizens is going to go down as far as people's emotional states? I'd say 90% of the spirits who survive the process will still be turned into fear and rage demons inside of a year. 

 

If he's serious about this plan and he at least cares for spirits as real people, which we know he does, he should be dissolving the veil incrementally over a few hundred years. Gradually. Then people could get used to it, like the Avvar. He's immortal. It'd likely be a bit harsh on his mental state, but still, he has the damn time to spare.

[Shari'El]

But would anyone really feel any better if he was?

 

I actually won't, he would erase thousands of year of history... I'm not sure why but it makes me feel uneasy.

These are the memories and lives of a lot more people, people who done great things, bad things, loved, hated, researched, created.

I'm not sure why it's worse for me than what we think he plans.

[Aravasia]

I don't suppose that really matters. In In Hushed Whispers, the Inquisitor and Dorian undid the effects of the time travel magic Alexius used on them. Stopping Solas from going back to screw with the timeline would be the same thing. 

It would be the same perspective for someone whom lived in the timeline from the dark future. The the Inquisitor, the timeline was a mistake, but it was not to the people whom lived in it. What if one of them, say Leliana, did not want the Inquisitor and Dorian to go back in time and change everything? Would anyone have actually agreed with her?

[diaspora2k5]

It would be the same perspective for someone whom lived in the timeline from the dark future. The the Inquisitor, the timeline was a mistake, but it was not to the people whom lived in it. What if one of them, say Leliana, did not want the Inquisitor and Dorian to go back in time and change everything? Would anyone have actually agreed with her?

Yes it was. They even said as much. Incidentally, going back to the present isn't even remotely the same thing as what Solas is planning. The latter intends to kill everyone to maybe restore the elven empire that he himself destroyed. Solas has literally done nothing but have his plans kill masses of people. The Inquisitor either stop a future from starting in the first place which is decidedly not the same thing as killing them, or they split the timeline.

[tanuki]

Yes it was. They even said as much. Incidentally, going back to the present isn't even remotely the same thing as what Solas is planning. The latter intends to kill everyone to maybe restore the elven empire that he himself destroyed. Solas has literally done nothing but have his plans kill masses of people. The Inquisitor either stop a future from starting in the first place which is decidedly not the same thing as killing them, or they split the timeline.

Well, if Solas really wants to time travel, then he considers the Thedas' past his present and the current Thedas is the dark future for him, so not so different. And probably elves who joined him know about his plan and are ready to sacrifice themselves (to not exist, basically) to return the lost glory of their ancestors.

[diaspora2k5]

Well, if Solas really wants to time travel, then he considers the Thedas' past his present and the current Thedas is the dark future for him, so not so different. And probably elves who joined him know about his plan and are ready to sacrifice themselves (to not exist, basically) to return the lost glory of their ancestors.

Time travel doesn't really make any sense. At that point he isn't even removing (which AFAIK he says he's doing) the veil in the first place.

[Ieldra]

@The topic:

There is no need for a hypothetical scenario. I already understand Solas. From his point of view, there is something fundamentally wrong with the world, and he is responsible for it. What is wrong is described, very much to the point, in his statement "It was like waking in a world of tranquil." This is really fundamental and goes beyond the desire to restore the elven empire. He wants to repair the world.

 

I can't even say I fundamentally disagree with his goal to sunder the Veil, only with his methods and the price others have to pay for it, including elven dominance over the world which I wouldn't want. That doesn't mean my future DA characters won't fight tooth and nail for their and their civilization's surivival, but it means I don't see Solas as a villain in the classical sense. I don't even see him as "misguided" since we are of different domains of life. The conflict is inevitable. My characters - unless I decide to play a very unusual one - will fight it with every means they have at their disposal, but without hate or contempt. 

[BansheeOwnage]

It can't work that way. Those people - their memories, everything - they ceased to exist. That may well be worse than death.

Sure it can. We don't know exactly how DA's time travel works, so it's all conjecture. Those people either:

 

1. In time travel without alternate timelines, they were changed into never existing (and yes, I find that ridiculous, but that's time travel for you)

 

2. In time travel with alternate timelines, they simply went on existing in the Dark Future, just without the presence of Dorian and the Inquisitor

 

I don't think there is a third scenario here where they exist for a year and then simply stop. That wouldn't fit with either style of time travel.

[ComedicSociopathy]

I can understand Solas being dissatisfied with the world he's awaken to. He sees everyone as Tranquil, which is frankly a twisted and faulty comparison but whatever, and is experiencing a massive amount of culture shock and guilt over his actions. Everything he loved is gone and destroyed and it's ultimately his fault.

 

I get it.

 

But you know what, he sort of loses all sympathy when he reveals he's going to change things by killing everyone in this world to save HIS old world. He's being selfish, arrogant, stubborn, stupid and tyrannical, upholding his idea of what the world should be over the million other people who are relatively fine with how the world is now. It should be pretty telling that in such a diverse like the Inquisitor's that has a rebellious city elf, a surface dwarf, a Tevinter magister, a Orlesian Circle mage, a Qunari, a world-weary solider, a Seeker of Truth and a spirit, none of them support Solas's plan and neither does the Exalted Council, which is supposed to be representative of the entirely of Southern Thedas. 

 

The people of Thedas don't want Solas's world or the Veil destroyed. He knows this and yet he's going to do it anyway. Maybe a few elves support such a world, but I respect such desires as much I respected the Venatori's. There's better ways to approve your admittedly terrible situation that doesn't require mass genocide. Which brings me back to the idea of Solas being annoyingly stupid. He currently has the power of a god and access to magical gates that can take him and his followers anywhere in Thedas and perhaps even further then that. Why not use that power and knowledge to take the Dalish, the alienage elves and Tevinter slaves to a place where they can finally rebuild and once have a homeland of their own? Sure, it won't be exactly like the Arlathan of old but it would be a far better option than trying to destroy the world and making elves an enemy of everyone on Thedas. 

 

But, no, no. Solas has to be an uncompromising idiot so that we can have a new villain for DA 4. Oh well, Solas is usually a pretty smart guy. Hopeful he'll realize how much an idiot he's being and actual use his incredible powers for something actual productive, instead of wasting his and the Inquisitor's time by pulling a Corypheus. 

[Tielis]

If it was more time magic than destruction magic, I'd do it in a heartbeat.  Because I'd rather think that the world I knew never existed than know that it was horribly destroyed.

[Ieldra]

@ComedicSociopathy:

Here's a comparison that might restore a little sympathy:

 

Imagine you changed the world, and as a side effect, everyone's intelligence dropped by 50 points. You're basically surrounded by morons, but that's not their natural state, it is how you made the world. You made everyone a moron, just as Solas made everyone a tranquil, or some equivalent of that. I don't know what I'd end up doing in such a case, but I actually would consider repairing the world at almost any price, for even if it means the current generation will die, at least the people of the future will be restored.

 

Only one who experienced the world of old can really appreciate what was lost in the creation of the Veil, and not just lost to the ancient elves, but to everyone. Of course the people of the new world can't be expected to submit to Solas' plans and just lie down and die, but fighting him and understanding him to some degree are not mutually exclusive.

[BansheeOwnage]

 

The people of Thedas don't want Solas's world or the Veil destroyed. He knows this and yet he's going to do it anyway. Maybe a few elves support such a world, but I respect such desires as much I respected the Venatori's. There's better ways to approve your admittedly terrible situation that doesn't require mass genocide. Which brings me back to the idea of Solas being annoyingly stupid. He currently has the power of a god and access to magical gates that can take him and his followers anywhere in Thedas and perhaps even further then that. Why not use that power and knowledge to take the Dalish, the alienage elves and Tevinter slaves to a place where they can finally rebuild and once have a homeland of their own? Sure, it won't be exactly like the Arlathan of old but it would be a far better option than trying to destroy the world and making elves an enemy of everyone on Thedas.

You're heavily misunderstanding his intentions and motivations. He doesn't care about the current-day elves any more than humans. He was never looking for a way to improve their lives. He wants to restore the ancient elves, because everyone else lacks that fundamental thing he views as being required to be a full person. If we use his analogy again, what you're saying is "Why doesn't he just take all the tranquil and give them a new home?" But that isn't his goal. His goal is to reverse the tranquility, and if that means everyone dying, he's okay with that.

[ComedicSociopathy]

@ComedicSociopathy:

Here's a comparison that might restore a little sympathy:

 

Imagine you changed the world, and as a side effect, everyone's intelligence dropped by 50 points. You're basically surrounded by morons, but that's not their natural state, it is how you made the world. You made everyone a moron, just as Solas made everyone a tranquil, or some equivalent of that. I don't know what I'd end up doing in such a case, but I actually would consider repairing the world at almost any price, for even if it means the current generation will die, at least the people of the future will be restored.

 

Only one who experienced the world of old can really appreciate what was lost in the creation of the Veil, and not just lost to the ancient elves, but to everyone. Of course the people of the new world can't be expected to submit to Solas' plans and just lie down and die, but fighting him and understanding him to some degree are not mutually exclusive.

 

I'd either commit suicide or simply adapt to this new world the best I can.

 

The point is that ultimately, my world is gone and if the only why to bring it back was by killing the people of this current one, who, using your example, have somehow managed to create a world that has some merit, positive qualities and even people that I've come to cherish (Cassandra and Varric) regardless of the fact that their mentally handicapped or in Solas' case Fade-blind, I'd have realize that I'm being selfish in longing for my old world and not go along with such a monstrous plan. 

[Aravasia]

@ComedicSociopathy:

Here's a comparison that might restore a little sympathy:

 

Imagine you changed the world, and as a side effect, everyone's intelligence dropped by 50 points. You're basically surrounded by morons, but that's not their natural state, it is how you made the world. You made everyone a moron, just as Solas made everyone a tranquil, or some equivalent of that. I don't know what I'd end up doing in such a case, but I actually would consider repairing the world at almost any price, for even if it means the current generation will die, at least the people of the future will be restored.

 

Only one who experienced the world of old can really appreciate what was lost in the creation of the Veil, and not just lost to the ancient elves, but to everyone. Of course the people of the new world can't be expected to submit to Solas' plans and just lie down and die, but fighting him and understanding him to some degree are not mutually exclusive.

This reminds me incredibly of the movie Idiocracy. It is a comedy movie (although, the comedy in it is more like something Sera would enjoy) where, in the future, the human species' intelligence has rapidly declined thanks to natural selection (or more so, the lack of.) 

 

I imagine Solas feels similar, but, I do not believe his motivation is based upon the principle that everyone is now unintelligent to him (even though, it may be true.) I believe it has more to do with their lack of magic. Still the scenario is similar enough to place others in his shoes. If I had been sent into a future as such in the movie I described, I would consider not changing it to be horrendous.

[adun12345]

I think Solas is sufficiently well-written that any reasonable person should be able to understand "the good" that he is seeking.  He sees the current world as full of non-people (i.e., his Tranquil analogy, though as others have pointed out I think it's an imperfect analogy), and would destroy it to bring back a world full of people.  From that perspective, nothing is lost in destroying the current world.  Of course, his definition of what constitutes people is fundamentally flawed, something which even he seems to understand.  There's some serious cognitive dissonance going on there... though I guess he still might logcially conclude that the "sort-of" people he would be destroying are still less valuable (and thus not really comparable to) than the "real" people he'll be bringing back.

 

One other point that I think deserves mention is the specific hypocrisy of Solas's position.  This is a relatively minor critique, given that he is basically pro-omnicide, but I'll put it out there nonetheless.  Solas spends a good portion of the game dissing the idea of gods.  He is very dismissive of the idea of any powerful magical entity setting itself up as the final arbiter of all things, as though it had the right to decide everything for everyone simply because it was more powerful.  Yet, Solas plans the entire time to do just that - employ tremendous magical power to remake the entire world according to what he believes is best.  Again, despite being a very thoughtful guy, Solas must have some pretty significant blind spots not to realize this.  I hope that we have the opportunity to call him on it in a future game; if the possibility exists of proving him wrong, this might be the way forward.

[SwobyJ]

"You are certain you experienced time travel? Could it have been an illusion, a trick of the Fade?"

-Solas, DAI

[Cz-99]

No, because it's not my call. I don't get to make decisions like that for billions of people - I don't get to kill billions of men, women, and children because I think this new world could be for the better.

 

GG well played, no re.

 

Seriously, for someone who doesn't like people who play god, he sure is good at doing the exact same thing.

[SwobyJ]

I think Solas is sufficiently well-written that any reasonable person should be able to understand "the good" that he is seeking.  He sees the current world as full of non-people (i.e., his Tranquil analogy, though as others have pointed out I think it's an imperfect analogy), and would destroy it to bring back a world full of people.  From that perspective, nothing is lost in destroying the current world.  Of course, his definition of what constitutes people is fundamentally flawed, something which even he seems to understand.  There's some serious cognitive dissonance going on there... though I guess he still might logcially conclude that the "sort-of" people he would be destroying are still less valuable (and thus not really comparable to) than the "real" people he'll be bringing back.

 

One other point that I think deserves mention is the specific hypocrisy of Solas's position.  This is a relatively minor critique, given that he is basically pro-omnicide, but I'll put it out there nonetheless.  Solas spends a good portion of the game dissing the idea of gods.  He is very dismissive of the idea of any powerful magical entity setting itself up as the final arbiter of all things, as though it had the right to decide everything for everyone simply because it was more powerful.  Yet, Solas plans the entire time to do just that - employ tremendous magical power to remake the entire world according to what he believes is best.  Again, despite being a very thoughtful guy, Solas must have some pretty significant blind spots not to realize this.  I hope that we have the opportunity to call him on it in a future game; if the possibility exists of proving him wrong, this might be the way forward.

 

He doesn't suppose himself 'really' a god because instead of ruling, he just 'does', and is, like any reasonable person might hopefully be, open to being proven wrong.

 

This may not be enough for all players, but its enough for some Inquisitors ,some players, and Solas himself.

 

And Solas does think things are lost with this world no matter what. He may not have had that perspective pre-DAI, but even at Lowest Approval, he respects, at minimum, the Inquisitor and Inquisition as at least akin to equals. May not value them as much as he could, but still respects.

[Dean_the_Young]

Solas's view obviously seems drastic (and perhaps slightly insane) to outside viewers, so I have been trying to think of a hypothetical scenario in which would allow others to question whether they could ever understand Solas's decision. As such, my questions follow as:

 

Say that you were given the choice to replace this world with the Dragon Age world (or whatever other ideal fantasy world - Mass Effect, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, etc.) even though this would result in the destruction of this world - and most likely everyone in it. Would you do it?

 

 

To add to that, would you still do it if it meant the death of all of your loved ones? Or, would you do it if you had no loved ones here?

 

 

You do realize that whether someone would do it or not doesn't change the morality (or immorality) or the choice, right?

 

 

Alternatively, say that this world was replaced with a dystopian world (this is likely different for everyone, so, just imagine a world that would be horrible to you.) Again, would you destroy that world to bring this one back? What if you had friends or a loved one there?

 

 

 

If you truly wish to have an applicable hypothetical, you'll need to be more specific (and relevant).

 

Is this dystopian world filled with people who are content and relatively happy, in ways that would not be fixed by burning it?

Can only one world truly exist, or does the person merely move between them?

Does 'bringing back' the old world actually bring it back in any relevant way?

Is the old work actually any less dystopian than the current one?

 

 

Two people on different threads made a rather interesting argument that Solas's decision is not too different from the Inquisitor's decision in the mage quest In Hushed Whispers, to destroy the future world and restore the world that they knew because according to them, it was wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now now, before you say anything, I realize that a world where Corypheus wins or whatever is probably a world that not many would like. But still, the argument.....

 

Perhaps you should post some of the posts that pointed out the false-equivalence and head-canon assumptions that were laden in those two.

 

You know. Just to be fair.

 

 

 

This is, of course, ignoring the guilt portion of being responsible that goes along with Solas's decision. But I am curious what others would do in these scenarios.  

 

 

I'm not sure what the relevance of Solas's guilt for responsibility is, except to point out that even Solas knows what he's doing is wrong.

[megageeklizzy]

Solas does not consider himself to be a god.  He is a more powerful being, but he is not a god.  Are humans gods because they can end the life of an ant with a single step?  No.  The existence of lesser beings does not make one a god, unless, as Solas says, you expand the definition of the word to absurdity.  Sure, we think that the mortals of the world are beings worthy of living in peace, but we think nothing of committing genocide against pests that are inconvenient to us.  If we were ants, we might be horrified by the actions of exterminators.  The problem is, we aren't ants, and Solas isn't mortal.  It's a matter of perspective, and if one thinks too deeply about it, it is far too easy to fall into deep philosophical contemplation.  

[Dean_the_Young]

That's what I was thinking. Solas isn't trying to hop back in time - he's trying to create the old world anew.

 

Indeed. I wish the people who bring up Hushed Whispers would stop ignorring what one of the key limitations of time travel in Dragon Age is.

 

You can't time travel back before the Veil broke. Solas ain't going back in time- and on that alone, the crux of the Hushed Whispers is false. Solas isn't going back in time to prevent something from happening.

[megageeklizzy]

Indeed. I wish the people who bring up Hushed Whispers would stop ignorring what one of the key limitations of time travel in Dragon Age is.

 

You can't time travel back before the Veil broke. Solas ain't going back in time- and on that alone, the crux of the Hushed Whispers is false. Solas isn't going back in time to prevent something from happening.

I don't think anyone was suggesting that he was going back in time.  It was a metaphor.  What is the difference between going back in time and destroying the world and recreating the new one anyway?  The only real difference is that Solas remembers it all.  You could argue about the souls of the people who existed or whatever, but it's really quite irrelevant.  The situation as it can be observed by any living beings would be the same either way.  It's like reverting your computer to a previous state; you can remember all of the things that you did, but there is no longer any evidence, and anybody else who looks at the computer who didn't see your work that was lost in the reversion will have no idea what you did.