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Seeing things from Solas's viewpoint - a philosophical question


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#101
Dean_the_Young

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Solas always wanted one thing: to save HIS world. The Veil was his "heroic" solution to imprison the tyrannical elven "gods". Except it all went horridly right.

When Solas woke up millennia later, he realised he failed to save the world. So just like the Inquisitor in " In Hushed Whispers " he's trying to fix thing.

If you want the moral argument, ask yourself - why do we think it was moral for the Inquisitor to eradicate that bad future from existence and kill all those who lived in it? Because we think that's an abominable hell - a world that shouldn't exist.

Welcome to Solas's POV. What he sees right now looks like that shattered and poisoned world.

 

Why do we think the Inquisitor destroyed the Bad Future at all?

 

It's time travel. Either it never happened (in which case it never exists to be destroyed), or it's a parallel timeline (in which case it still exists, and the Inquisitor just jumped timelines).


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#102
Dean_the_Young

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Solas makes one point clear: what the "elves" were before he created the Veil was nothing like the elves today. They were immortal. They had magic on a scale we can't understand. Spirits were potentially more like Cole - they weren't possibly so easily twisted into demons. All of this was wiped away.

What do the ancient elves think about this world?

When we say "everyone" agrees that this world has to end, we're looking at it from the POV of the people who lived in the old one - who were FROM it. But we should be asking the POV of the insane gibbering demons and red lyrium monsters. That's what Solas sees everyone who lives now as - that's why Cole says that to Solas that we're not "real".

 

 

 

Insane gibbering demons are insane by the objective standard. Red lyrium monsters are mentally enslaved. Modern elves and humans are neither, but free-willed sentients with the ability for introspection, empathy, and to construct an objective evaluation of their contentment with existence and express a preference.

 


That's the point of the analogy - to see the world from Solas' twisted perspective. That's why he's even a little conflicted - because he's realised by Trespasser that the current Thedas has real and living people in it. He just cant let go of his old world.

 

 

Seeing things from Solas's perspective doesn't mean his perspective is correct. He can, quite simply, be wrong, and be thinking according to illogical thinking traps.


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#103
Dean_the_Young

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But would anyone really feel any better if he was?

 

Yes. Hence why people are making the equivalence to Hushed Whispers to rationalize him, while others suggest time travel is his plan.



#104
Dean_the_Young

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But can we be sure that his plan doesn't involve time travel?

 

Yes, actually.

 

You can't time-travel through the period the Veil is intact (or, in other words- not before the Breach). It's the restriction of time travel magic.



#105
Dean_the_Young

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I don't think anyone was suggesting that he was going back in time.  It was a metaphor. 

 

 

No, people have really argued that's his goal.

 

 

What is the difference between going back in time and destroying the world and recreating the new one anyway?

 

 

The difference between murder and cloning vs. running away to a house of identical strangers.

 

 

 The only real difference is that Solas remembers it all.  You could argue about the souls of the people who existed or whatever, but it's really quite irrelevant.  The situation as it can be observed by any living beings would be the same either way.  It's like reverting your computer to a previous state; you can remember all of the things that you did, but there is no longer any evidence, and anybody else who looks at the computer who didn't see your work that was lost in the reversion will have no idea what you did.

 

 

The argument of evidence only matters if we subscribe to purely subjective reality, in which anything that can't be disproven is considered true.

 

If we don't subscribe to that sort of willful delusion, what happened, happened. You did the work. Your computer reverted. Anyone who claims you didn't is simply wrong.



#106
DuskWanderer

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I understand Solas's decision just fine. He is simply wrong, just as he was before. I am reminded of what Myrkul said to Kaelyn the Dove: "You favor blunt action and brute force, with little regard for what such actions cause further down the road." 

 

I think that Solas, due to his close ties with the Fade (and his agelessness), does not weigh the concept of time, just as a spirit does not. He'll make something happen immediately simply because he thinks it should happen now. 

 

He also doesn't consider that humans and dwarves deserve life. To him, they are unworthy. Perhaps because they are not elves. 


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#107
Aravasia

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You do realize that whether someone would do it or not doesn't change the morality (or immorality) or the choice, right?

 

 

If you truly wish to have an applicable hypothetical, you'll need to be more specific (and relevant).

 

Is this dystopian world filled with people who are content and relatively happy, in ways that would not be fixed by burning it?

Can only one world truly exist, or does the person merely move between them?

Does 'bringing back' the old world actually bring it back in any relevant way?

Is the old work actually any less dystopian than the current one?

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure what the relevance of Solas's guilt for responsibility is, except to point out that even Solas knows what he's doing is wrong.

 

That would depend on whether you view morality as an objective principle or subjectively determined by the individual. More often than not, people justify their actions on the basis that they believe it is morally right. 

 

 

 Although this thread has transformed more into an evaluation of Solas's actions and similar scenarios. The question was originally posed merely, as stated, a philosophical question that came to mind as I had been contemplating Solas's scenario, and was not intended to be a direct comparison. Why did I bother asking, then? Because I am curious of others' ideology and reasoning, and, since the scenario bares some semblance to Solas's plot, I thought I would try to engage the BSN.

 

If i had made the post longer including every applicable factor, I doubt that anyone would have read it, rather, I would imagine that anyone whom is highly interested in the scenario would provide factors that they have individually thought of, and their stance when those factors are added to the scenario. However, if you would like me specify the factors you have listed:

 

They would be as contempt as anyone in any world is, so, some, but not entirely.

The past world existed in the past, and there are remnants of it left, but currently, the dystopia is the 'existing' world. They cannot move between them.

Yes, the 'old world' would be entirely as it once was.

That would, of course, depend on perspective. The comparison was between the modern world and an individual's imagined dystopia - which, the idea of a dystopia varies from person to person. As such, I would presume the dystopian world would be more 'dystopian.'

 

 

 

The relevance of his guilt is that it is a factor in his motivation, not that it affects the morality of the decision.

Although, someone may feel guilt over a situation while still believing that they are preforming the morally right action. Example: Someone whom must choose whether or not to take an individual in a vegetative state off of life support would likely feel guilt for doing so, however, it is as well likely that they believe they are doing 'the right thing.'



#108
Jackums

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I find Solas's logic sound, as well as the opposing views. I'm not a moral objectivist, so both sides have potential value (or equally a lack thereof).

 

Insofar as the hypothetical in the OP, my answer would be, "Possibly." I wouldn't claim to know either way what my actions would be when actually presented with the choice, but rationally I have no immediate absolute answer; ie. I believe I'd be capable, whether or not likely. From what I can realistically predict, a source of conflict in the decision would be my empathy more than any sense of ethical obligation. My "state" in real life tends to be heavily centered in moral nihilism/skepticism (my immediate response to things, subconsciously), though heavily influenced by a presence of empathy, even though consciously I identify as agnostic. I don't have any immediate resistance to the idea, but I couldn't give a sure answer right now, either.

 

I'm not morally/ethically opposed to Solas, but would potentially act in opposition on a basis of rational/enlightened self-interest and empathy (for those, living, at risk). Though, on the flip side, I could also be just as likely to sympathise with his goals. I don't have any instant, shock response to the situation, but to just make a realistic assumption of how I'd react if I were say, a human mage living in Thedas with my current personality/identity, chances are I'd oppose him on a basis of rationality and empathy. My actions would be informed heavily by my experiences, I imagine.


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#109
AlleluiaElizabeth

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I don't think anyone was suggesting that he was going back in time.  It was a metaphor.  What is the difference between going back in time and destroying the world and recreating the new one anyway?  The only real difference is that Solas remembers it all.  You could argue about the souls of the people who existed or whatever, but it's really quite irrelevant.  The situation as it can be observed by any living beings would be the same either way.  It's like reverting your computer to a previous state; you can remember all of the things that you did, but there is no longer any evidence, and anybody else who looks at the computer who didn't see your work that was lost in the reversion will have no idea what you did.

What's the difference btwn Marty McFly changing things in 1955 so that Biff never becomes rich and famous or Marty just shooting him in the head 2015? A lot.

 

Changing the past, assuming it would reset the timeline rather than just make a branching AU, would be like modern Thedas had never existed. Heck, the Inquisitor, Hero of Fereldan, Hawke & company, etc, may still even get born and get to be alive in that scenario, just in different circumstances than we've experienced.

 

On the other hand, committing mass genocide is, well... committing mass genocide. Its ending lives. Snuffing them out. The big dirt nap. And unlike the relatively kind blissful ignorance of the timeline simply ceasing to exist due to a paradox, the people of current Thedas would experience all the suffering that came from the sundering of the veil. Only this time there'd be no Breach for the Inquisitor to seal cus the whole thing would be gone.

 

 

Yes, actually.

 

You can't time-travel through the period the Veil is intact (or, in other words- not before the Breach). It's the restriction of time travel magic.

I do wonder if, since technically there was a time before the Veil was intact (i.e. when it didn't exist), that it *might* be possible to return to that point in time? Just the time in between the raising of the Veil and the Breach would be off limits.

 

I don't think this is Solas' plan cus he'd have to know time travel was possible in the first place to do it and In Hushed Whispers is optional content. Champions of the Just doesn't require time manipulation in any way, as far as I know. Even the "dark inquisitor" thing is just conjecture/illusion from Envy, right?

 

Still, I don't think time travel to before he erected the Veil is outside the realm of possibility. And it'd be an interesting way to let us see ancient Elvhenan.


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#110
Ieldra

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I'd like to discuss another aspect of this that hasn't come up before: Normative notions about the nature of things and their basic flaw.

 

Solas' position is that the world is fundamentally flawed after his earlier intervention, that it is the natural state of things for the people of the world to co-exist with spirits and be connected with the Fade (or rather, with the dream-aspected part of the one reality since originally there was no distinction) . From there he derives his justification to "set things right".

 

However, as I see it, there is no objective way to justify valuing one state of things above the other. The new state isn't any less "true" or "false" than the old one, at their times both could derive the same justification (or lack thereof) from merely existing, and every imaginable statement about how things should be instead can never be derived from the same, or from observation. We are dealing with statements of belief about how the world should be, and justifying things with such is intrinsically problematic.

 

With no objective way to determine the value of any given state of things, all that is left is the agreement of those existing in the current state. Everyone wants a better future, and if people agree - or can be convinced - an intervention is likely to result in a better world you're justified in destroying the present state of things.

 

I can see no way to justify Solas' actions except through normative notions about the world, and since I do not believe in those I must reject them. This is personally unpleasant since I actually do believe that a world with no Veil is desirable. I just see no sufficient justification to act on that belief, given the price. I can imagine a state of things where I'd say "f*** ethics, I'm doing it anyway" - just as Solas does - but that would make me a hypocrite, and the villain of the piece from a very reasonable viewpoint, even if I should turn out to be right in the end.  


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#111
Fredward

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When you parse everything out, when you consider Solas' motives and how he must feel in this topsy-turvy world, how conflicted ashamed and guilt-ridden he must be his motivations for doing what he does is very  understandable. They're just still wrong from my PoV.

 

Someone made the comparison between leaving for a while and coming back and having dogs and cats as overlords now and it being your fault. Yeah, kay I can see that as being disorientating and disheartening. But if these cats and dogs have created a world in which they live lives fundamentally different maybe diminished from what you're used to but still fundamentally satisfying and fulfilling TO THEM who are  you, a single person, to tell them that they're existing wrong?

 

Especially when the people you'd like to return the world for are either so few they'd barely show up in a census or don't exist at all? A 'fixed' world for a handful and terror and death for the 'cats' and 'dogs'? Better for who, exactly? Better why, exactly? The world was one way once and one people were in power once and then they weren't any more. New people came in who lived in a different way. Why and how is that fundamentally lesser to what came before? Because you lived in the before? Because you thought so? If it was so good why did it have to stop? No place, no way of being is inherently superior to the other. I don't think. They're just different. And one person, even if that person considers himself to be the only real person, does not get to make a decision of that magnitude. The ego it takes is astonishing.

 

If the motives here were purely altruistic I might have been less critical. But it isn't even that. Solas wants to fix his mistake. A mistake he made before recorded history. A personal mistake whose fixing will cost everyone EVERYTHING THEY HAVE EVER KNOWN. And he feels bad in the way a farmer might feel bad for putting down his cattle if he had to make space for refugees or something. There's no recognition of personhood there, and that's fundamentally flawed. Because while they may be cattle IN COMPARISON to whatever you had before and what they were before these are now cattle with feelings and thoughts and accomplishments and history. They exist. In a way that your dead past no longer does. Its sad but its also done and has been done for ages.

 

Like, get over yourself Evil Egg. Your way was way not The Way. You say you're not a god, that you are/were fundamentally different from the Evanuris that came before but look at the decisions you're making now. Look at how you're making them. You're exactly  like them. Nauseating hypocritical turdnurgle.

 

I need to go watch a video of Solas getting punched again.


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#112
Jackums

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I'd like to discuss another aspect of this that hasn't come up before: Normative notions about the nature of things and their basic flaw.

 

Solas' position is that the world is fundamentally flawed after his earlier intervention, that it is the natural state of things for the people of the world to co-exist with spirits and be connected with the Fade (or rather, with the dream-aspected part of the one reality since originally there was no distinction) . From there he derives his justification to "set things right".

 

However, as I see it, there is no objective way to justify valuing one state of things above the other. The new state isn't any less "true" or "false" than the old one, at their times both could derive the same justification (or lack thereof) from merely existing, and every imaginable statement about how things should be instead can never be derived from the same, or from observation. We are dealing with statements of belief about how the world should be, and justifying things with such is intrinsically problematic.

 

With no objective way to determine the value of any given state of things, all that is left is the agreement of those existing in the current state. Everyone wants a better future, and if people agree - or can be convinced - an intervention is likely to result in a better world you're justified in destroying the present state of things.

 

I can see no way to justify Solas' actions except through normative notions about the world, and since I do not believe in those I must reject them. This is personally unpleasant since I actually do believe that a world with no Veil is desirable. I just see no sufficient justification to act on that belief, given the price. I can imagine a state of things where I'd say "f*** ethics, I'm doing it anyway" - just as Solas does - but that would make me a hypocrite, and the villain of the piece from a very reasonable viewpoint, even if I should turn out to be right in the end.  

Anything can ultimately be reduced and rationalised down to a point of inability to justify.

 

"What are morals? What is value? What is anything? Why?"

 

>infinite regress of reasons

 

I had a similar discussion with a friend not long ago about what defines "natural," talking about artificial intelligence and whether it's something external of "nature." Essentially anything that exists can be argued to be natural for its very existence and being a product of said existence. It's all semantics. Generally when people use the term "natural," they're defining it as something which occurs without intentional intelligent intervention. Assuming that axiomatic foundation; whether that's better (in comes your above post) is where the road diverges and you get branching views. Neither side is going to find any solid evidence for or against either view.

 

Where I begin to disagree with you above is when you go from, "objective value cannot be determined" (agreed) to "value via majority." If objective value cannot be established, then it doesn't matter how many people hold the same viewpoint on something, because 1,000,000x0 is still 0. It still holds no objective value over the opinion of even a single outlier. Which means it's subjective. Which means there's also no justifiable logic to support the many over Solas, for the same reasoning as you cannot see a way to justify Solas's actions. By this logic, everything is ultimately of equal value (all/none). You can choose to value the many over the few, but if you acknowledge an inability to know objective value, then you also have to acknowledge that said choice is purely personal and holds no real value over any other action regardless of context or what it involves.

 

I agree with everything you said but the conclusion of your rationalisations.

 


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#113
Ferretinabun

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I'd like to discuss another aspect of this that hasn't come up before: Normative notions about the nature of things and their basic flaw.

 

Solas' position is that the world is fundamentally flawed after his earlier intervention, that it is the natural state of things for the people of the world to co-exist with spirits and be connected with the Fade (or rather, with the dream-aspected part of the one reality since originally there was no distinction) . From there he derives his justification to "set things right".

 

 

 

Absolutely! Well said. It amazes me that people miss the point that Solas' motivation is clearly guilt. It's not just that he's woken up to a world gone horribly awry (in his opinion), it's that it's all his fault! He 'broke' the world. And now he wants to restore the 'natural order' of things. He sees himself as having a responsibility to correct his own mistake.

 

If you are of an environmentalist mind, perhaps the best real-world parallel is invasive species. Invasive species are animals human have introduced to an ecosystem (by accident or design) and sometimes they can run absolutely rampant in their new home, practically destroying it. Consider, for example, all the animals introduced to the Australian mainland (rabbits, foxes, cane toads, cats, rats, etc.,) which have decimated the country's native wildlife. Now imagine you have the power to kill all non-native animals in Australia with a click of your fingers, would you do it? I certainly think I would. Because (and here's where I disagree with Ieldra) I do agree with the concept of 'the natural order of things'. Even though, from the perspective of an Australian fox/rabbit/cat, it would be nothing less that Armageddon.

 

To put it crudely, we broke it; we fix it.

 

So yes, in Solas' shoes I can certainly see myself doing what he's doing.

 

In other words, Solas is a GREAT antagonist.


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#114
Reznore57

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Absolutely! Well said. It amazes me that people miss the point that Solas' motivation is clearly guilt. It's not just that he's woken up to a world gone horribly awry (in his opinion), it's that it's all his fault! He 'broke' the world. And now he wants to restore the 'natural order' of things. He sees himself as having a responsibility to correct his own mistake.

 

If you are of an environmentalist mind, perhaps the best real-world parallel is invasive species. Invasive species are animals human have introduced to an ecosystem (by accident or design) and sometimes they can run absolutely rampant in their new home, practically destroying it. Consider, for example, all the animals introduced to the Australian mainland (rabbits, foxes, cane toads, cats, rats, etc.,) which have decimated the country's native wildlife. Now imagine you have the power to kill all non-native animals in Australia with a click of your fingers, would you do it? I certainly think I would. Because (and here's where I disagree with Ieldra) I do agree with the concept of 'the natural order of things'. Even though, from the perspective of an Australian fox/rabbit/cat, it would be nothing less that Armageddon.

 

To put it crudely, we broke it; we fix it.

 

So yes, in Solas' shoes I can certainly see myself doing what he's doing.

 

In other words, Solas is a GREAT antagonist.

 

Doesn't work.

The "natural" state of the world was 7 elven mages were about to destroy the world and the only solution was the veil.

Solas created a new "ecosystem" which doesn't self destruct.

He didn't break anything , he fixed a flaw and intelligent life form can keep on living with limited magic.



#115
wright1978

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I'd like to discuss another aspect of this that hasn't come up before: Normative notions about the nature of things and their basic flaw.

 

Solas' position is that the world is fundamentally flawed after his earlier intervention, that it is the natural state of things for the people of the world to co-exist with spirits and be connected with the Fade (or rather, with the dream-aspected part of the one reality since originally there was no distinction) . From there he derives his justification to "set things right".

 

However, as I see it, there is no objective way to justify valuing one state of things above the other. The new state isn't any less "true" or "false" than the old one, at their times both could derive the same justification (or lack thereof) from merely existing, and every imaginable statement about how things should be instead can never be derived from the same, or from observation. We are dealing with statements of belief about how the world should be, and justifying things with such is intrinsically problematic.

 

With no objective way to determine the value of any given state of things, all that is left is the agreement of those existing in the current state. Everyone wants a better future, and if people agree - or can be convinced - an intervention is likely to result in a better world you're justified in destroying the present state of things.

 

I can see no way to justify Solas' actions except through normative notions about the world, and since I do not believe in those I must reject them. This is personally unpleasant since I actually do believe that a world with no Veil is desirable. I just see no sufficient justification to act on that belief, given the price. I can imagine a state of things where I'd say "f*** ethics, I'm doing it anyway" - just as Solas does - but that would make me a hypocrite, and the villain of the piece from a very reasonable viewpoint, even if I should turn out to be right in the end.  

 

Solas didn't require the agreement of the old world dwellers to destroy the natural state. Not sure why he should need the agreement of the current world dwellers to undue his mistake.



#116
Ferretinabun

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Doesn't work.

The "natural" state of the world was 7 elven mages were about to destroy the world and the only solution was the veil.

Solas created a new "ecosystem" which doesn't self destruct.

He didn't break anything , he fixed a flaw and intelligent life form can keep on living with limited magic.

 

I'm not saying the Old Elven World was perfect (obviously it wasn't). But it was Solas' 'solution' which was flawed.

 

The old world was stable. The issue was that the Evanuris kept the elven people as slaves. That was the only problem Solas sought to fix. And in doing so, he sundered entire living realm (and all but destroyed the people he was trying to free).

 

Saying the current world is better than the old one is to say that living free as a tranquil is better than living as a slave with all your faculties. 



#117
Ieldra

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Anything can ultimately be reduced and rationalised down to a point of inability to justify.

 

"What are morals? What is value? What is anything? Why?"

 

>infinite regress of reasons

 

I had a similar discussion with a friend not long ago about what defines "natural," talking about artificial intelligence and whether it's something external of "nature." Essentially anything that exists can be argued to be natural for its very existence and being a product of said existence. It's all semantics. Generally when people use the term "natural," they're defining it as something which occurs without intentional intelligent intervention. Assuming that axiomatic foundation; whether that's better (in comes your above post) is where the road diverges and you get branching views. Neither side is going to find any solid evidence for or against either view.

 

Where I begin to disagree with you above is when you go from, "objective value cannot be determined" (agreed) to "value via majority." If objective value cannot be established, then it doesn't matter how many people hold the same viewpoint on something, because 1,000,000x0 is still 0. It still holds no objective value over the opinion of even a single outlier. Which means it's subjective. Which means there's also no justifiable logic to support the many over Solas, for the same reasoning as you cannot see a way to justify Solas's actions. By this logic, everything is ultimately of equal value (all/none). You can choose to value the many over the few, but if you acknowledge an inability to know objective value, then you also have to acknowledge that said choice is purely personal and holds no real value over any other action regardless of context or what it involves.

 

I agree with everything you said but the conclusion of your rationalisations
 

A fair point. Here's my take on it: when we can't know objective value, all that's left is to do what works. I set as axiomatic the principle that everyone has equal existential weight, not because I believe it's objectively true (actually I believe it's ultimately false) but because it's one of the few rules I can imagine to work as a universal principle on which to build a community. In the end, there is little that can serve as the philosophical basis of a rational universalist morality except for the principle that that it must work as the basis for a universalist rational morality, as shown by Kant in his development of the categorical imperative. Since morality is not about truth but about making people interact in a way that they can continue to live as a part of the same community, regardless of what's actually true, I consider this a valid argument even though, as you say, it can't be 100% compelling.

 

At the same time, you're equally justified to say that actions above a certain scope must be beyond this, or nothing would ever get done. In that case, we're back to subjective justifications.


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#118
tanuki

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Sure it can. We don't know exactly how DA's time travel works, so it's all conjecture. Those people either:

 

1. In time travel without alternate timelines, they were changed into never existing (and yes, I find that ridiculous, but that's time travel for you)

 

2. In time travel with alternate timelines, they simply went on existing in the Dark Future simply without the presence of Dorian and the Inquisitor

 

I don't think there is a third scenario here where they exist for a year and then simply stop. That wouldn't fit with either style of time travel.

 

There is also a third variant of time travel, where the timeline cannot be changed no matter what and loops into itself. An example would be Solas coming back in time and him going there is what triggers the Mythal's murder and his younger self creating the veil. (Not our case clearly, because we were already shown that the future can be changed, although we still don't know if there are alternate timelines or not)

Kinda like in FF8 where Utimecia's going back in time results in people hating and hunting sorceresses in the future because they know that there will be that one sorceress who goes back in time and tries to destroy the world.

Yeah.. I like theorizing on time travel as I find the concept fascinated, even when it's often utterly confusing when not done right. :)


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#119
Ieldra

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Solas didn't require the agreement of the old world dwellers to destroy the natural state. Not sure why he should need the agreement of the current world dwellers to undue his mistake.

He took it on himself to make a decision that affected everyone. If there is no way to objectively value one state over the other, he was not justified to do that without such agreement. Note that I am not claiming he was wrong, only that he was not justified on the basis of any rational universalist morality. The conclusion we can draw from this is either that he *was* wrong, that a rational universalist morality is a tool not feasible to judge the situation, or that preferred natural states actually do exist by dictum of a higher power qualified to make ultimate value judgments.

 

Personally, I believe that there are situations where moral considerations break down and all you can do is use your own best judgment, even if that means accepting a high price, because the alternative - doing nothing - is not acceptable. Solas clearly believes he is at such a point. If he's correct in that, we will see. 



#120
Jackums

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A fair point. Here's my take on it: when we can't know objective value, all that's left is to do what works. I set as axiomatic the principle that everyone has equal existential weight, not because I believe it's objectively true (actually I believe it's ultimately false) but because it's one of the few rules I can imagine to work as a universal principle on which to build a community. In the end, there is little that can serve as the philosophical basis of a rational universalist morality except for the principle that that it must work as the basis for a universalist rational morality, as shown by Kant in his development of the categorical imperative. Since morality is not about truth but about making people interact in a way that they can continue to live as a part of the same community, regardless of what's actually true, I consider this a valid argument even though, as you say, it can't be 100% compelling.

 

At the same time, you're equally justified to say that actions above a certain scope must be beyond this, or nothing would ever get done. In that case, we're back to subjective justifications.

Agreed.

 

I don't support Solas, personally (or oppose him). Rather the only thing I tend to defend consistently in this philosophical vein is equality of choice/views/value/etc (or the potential for such, insofar as we can rationally conclude), as I'm primarily agnostic over all else.

 

If I were to actually physically take a side in the scenario, chances are it would be in opposition to Solas for reasons of survival, self-interest, empathy. Philosophically, I have no consistent preferences for or against "natural" (as I defined it earlier), but the whole purpose behind the Veil, and the idea of sundering it to form and recreate some new, once-existent-world where magic and the physical are essentially as one -- it really intrigues me. So, similarly to you, I do have some inclination towards such a world, if not just pure curiosity, though chances are I'd still oppose its creation for the cost of its formation.


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#121
Ieldra

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Absolutely! Well said. It amazes me that people miss the point that Solas' motivation is clearly guilt. It's not just that he's woken up to a world gone horribly awry (in his opinion), it's that it's all his fault! He 'broke' the world. And now he wants to restore the 'natural order' of things. He sees himself as having a responsibility to correct his own mistake.

 

If you are of an environmentalist mind, perhaps the best real-world parallel is invasive species. Invasive species are animals human have introduced to an ecosystem (by accident or design) and sometimes they can run absolutely rampant in their new home, practically destroying it. Consider, for example, all the animals introduced to the Australian mainland (rabbits, foxes, cane toads, cats, rats, etc.,) which have decimated the country's native wildlife. Now imagine you have the power to kill all non-native animals in Australia with a click of your fingers, would you do it? I certainly think I would. Because (and here's where I disagree with Ieldra) I do agree with the concept of 'the natural order of things'. Even though, from the perspective of an Australian fox/rabbit/cat, it would be nothing less that Armageddon.

 

To put it crudely, we broke it; we fix it.

 

So yes, in Solas' shoes I can certainly see myself doing what he's doing.

 

In other words, Solas is a GREAT antagonist.

To make a short excursion, may I point out a problem with the concept of a natural order: Imagine that the same things - immigrant species adversely affecting an ecosystem - happened as the result of natural migration rather than human intervention, would you still value the original state over the newer one? If yes, then human intervention, i.e. acting against what would happen "naturally", is clearly not the problem since the new state came about perfectly naturally. If no, that would imply a principle of "If humans do it, it's wrong, if it happens another way, it's right", i.e. applying different standards of validity to the same events or discriminating by actor. I find neither particularly compelling, which is why I think there's something wrong with the idea in the first place.

 

As opposed to that, I find the principle to preserve natural diversity, by "unnatural" intervention if necessary, much more compelling, since species diversity impacts survivablity of the system, and *that* can be considered a high good from almost any viewpoint.

 

With your conclusion about Solas, I agree. He's a great antagonist. Indicated, among other things, by the rather interesting debates spawned by the fact he is the antagonist, a few years before the next game comes out. I think the DA team can already congratulate themselves on being successful in this - also because their antagonists have rarely been interesting.


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#122
Ferretinabun

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To make a short excursion, may I point out a problem with the concept of a natural order: Imagine that the same things - immigrant species adversely affecting an ecosystem - happened as the result of natural migration rather than human intervention, would you still value the original state over the newer one? If yes, then human intervention, i.e. acting against what would happen "naturally", is clearly not the problem since the new state came about perfectly naturally. If no, that would imply a principle of "If humans do it, it's wrong, if it happens another way, it's right", i.e. applying different standards of validity to the same events or discriminating by actor. I find neither particularly compelling, which is why I think there's something wrong with the idea in the first place.

 

 

Actually I recently read a book that made exactly this argument ("Where Do Camels Belong?" by Ken Thompson for anyone interested). The world's ecosystems are in a constant state of flux and the whole concept of certain species 'belonging' in certain places is inherently flawed.

 

Nevertheless, I think it misses a point.

 

To answer your question, no I would not object if 'invading' animals simply made their own way to a new habitat. That is just a natural and necessary process. In a sense I do hold to "If humans do it it's wrong; if it happens any other way it's right." Because to argue that 'human activity is a natural process too' is to court the idea that we cannot flatly ruin the planet. And we very much can.

 

I think it would have taken an extraordinarily dispassionate and cold mind for Solas to have woken up, seen what had become of the elves and the material world with the Fade world removed, and not felt any responsibility. Solas cares. He even feels regret for those who must die for him to fix his mistake. And for that, I think Solas is one of the best antagonists I've seen in a long time.

 

In fact, I would LOVE DA4 to really reflect how morally grey the whole situation is. If it's just all 'Solas crazybad and must be stopped' then I'll be hugely let down.


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#123
Arakat

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I do wonder if, since technically there was a time before the Veil was intact (i.e. when it didn't exist), that it *might* be possible to return to that point in time? Just the time in between the raising of the Veil and the Breach would be off limits.

 

My thoughts exactly.

 

I don't think this is Solas' plan cus he'd have to know time travel was possible in the first place to do it and In Hushed Whispers is optional content. Champions of the Just doesn't require time manipulation in any way, as far as I know. Even the "dark inquisitor" thing is just conjecture/illusion from Envy, right?

 

Still, I don't think time travel to before he erected the Veil is outside the realm of possibility. And it'd be an interesting way to let us see ancient Elvhenan.

 

 

The ruins in the Western Approach also involve time magic, although not actual time travel. Granted, they're optional content, as well, but they're not mutually exclusive with any other quests like In Hushed Whispers is.

 

I should probably mention that, personally, I don't believe Solas plans on using time magic. I simply wanted to point out that it could be possible, and that we don't actually know how modern Thedas is going to "die". He's planning to bring down the Veil, yes, but that's not the entirety of his plan, is it?


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#124
Ferretinabun

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I should probably mention that, personally, I don't believe Solas plans on using time magic. I simply wanted to point out that it could be possible, and that we don't actually know how modern Thedas is going to "die". He's planning to bring down the Veil, yes, but that's not the entirety of his plan, is it?

 

Almost certainly not, since he says he also has plans on how to deal with the Evanuris once the Veil is down. It's safe to assume we only know the very broad outline of what Solas is planning.



#125
Dean_the_Young

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That would depend on whether you view morality as an objective principle or subjectively determined by the individual. More often than not, people justify their actions on the basis that they believe it is morally right. 

 

Indeed. We can also point out that such people often are wrong by either their own stated moralities, or by the collective cultural morality systems by which they appeal.

 

 

 

 

 Although this thread has transformed more into an evaluation of Solas's actions and similar scenarios. The question was originally posed merely, as stated, a philosophical question that came to mind as I had been contemplating Solas's scenario, and was not intended to be a direct comparison. Why did I bother asking, then? Because I am curious of others' ideology and reasoning, and, since the scenario bares some semblance to Solas's plot, I thought I would try to engage the BSN.

 

If i had made the post longer including every applicable factor, I doubt that anyone would have read it, rather, I would imagine that anyone whom is highly interested in the scenario would provide factors that they have individually thought of, and their stance when those factors are added to the scenario. However, if you would like me specify the factors you have listed:

 

They would be as contempt as anyone in any world is, so, some, but not entirely.

The past world existed in the past, and there are remnants of it left, but currently, the dystopia is the 'existing' world. They cannot move between them.

Yes, the 'old world' would be entirely as it once was.

That would, of course, depend on perspective. The comparison was between the modern world and an individual's imagined dystopia - which, the idea of a dystopia varies from person to person. As such, I would presume the dystopian world would be more 'dystopian.'

 

 

 

Your 'philosophical' analogy is flawed because it doesn't reflect the dynamic Solas faces. Solas is not facing time travel, his actions are not time-travel delimmas in nature, and the equivalence between time travel and Solas's intentions for the future was false from the start. Nor is the appeal to a dystopic world well-founded: the nature of a dystopic world is one in which the majority of everyone is miserable and suffering from the nature of the world. Thedas is not- or rather, not in the sense that tearing down the Fade would fix it.

 

Trying to see things from Solas's perspective, but then presenting a viewpoint significantly different from Solas's perspective, is an exercise in deliberate mis-direction.

 

Solas provides us the anologies relevant to him- burning a world filled with Tranquil. That is his perspective, and that is one any intent to see his perspective needs to look through- not trying to recast his view to something more sympathetic for the player's palat.

 

 

The relevance of his guilt is that it is a factor in his motivation, not that it affects the morality of the decision.

Although, someone may feel guilt over a situation while still believing that they are preforming the morally right action. Example: Someone whom must choose whether or not to take an individual in a vegetative state off of life support would likely feel guilt for doing so, however, it is as well likely that they believe they are doing 'the right thing.'

 

 

Again, you're presenting flawed analogies to distort Solas's position. People in vegetative states are not able to survive on their own, or hold any views of their own existence. The people of Thedas do.

 

 

The fairer analogy, more accurate to Solas, is this example: Someone who must choose whether or not to kill someone with autism would likely feel guilt for doing so, however, it is as well likely that they believe they are doing 'the right thing.'