225 réponses à ce sujet

[Reznore57]

I'm not saying the Old Elven World was perfect (obviously it wasn't). But it was Solas' 'solution' which was flawed.

 

The old world was stable. The issue was that the Evanuris kept the elven people as slaves. That was the only problem Solas sought to fix. And in doing so, he sundered entire living realm (and all but destroyed the people he was trying to free).

 

Saying the current world is better than the old one is to say that living free as a tranquil is better than living as a slave with all your faculties. 

 

I very much doubt the old world was stable , it seems the ancient elves were so powerful it was creating trouble left and right.

They were able to mess with Titans , there's no details on what happened exactly but the elves had to seal their mines and run away.

Then Solas claims the elven Gods were out of control and about to destroy the world .

He says the veil was the only solution to keep them in check.

 

There's no such monsters in current Thedas , you had the magisters , but they step on the Golden City and it was probably an elven relic.Still , you're able to defeat Corypheus without sacrificing a part of the world.

There's the Archdemons but again it only requires grey wardens , it's no more than what? Hundreds of soldiers tainting themselves.

And chances are Old Gods and the Blight are a relic of ancient time before the veil.

 

And people are not "tranquil" ...Solas is full of it when he says that.He compares spirits to people at Haven.

The ancient elves weren't that much different , they build empires , they loved they hated etc..;.

It's still happening nowadays without lots of magic.

It's like current mages saying dwarves aren't people because they can't dream and can't have magic , and pretend they are "tranquil".

No one in his right mind is saying that in Thedas.

Besides Solas tells you "You are right you are people" , he changed his mind during Inquisition.

Still he will kill everyone , to save a couple of ancient elves and rebuild a dead empire which destroyed itself.

[Dean_the_Young]

Almost certainly not, since he says he also has plans on how to deal with the Evanuris once the Veil is down. It's safe to assume we only know the very broad outline of what Solas is planning.

 

What we do know, however, is how he intended the world to burn- because he already pulled it off.

 

The Breach, the sundering of the Fade, and all that entails (which we already know because, again, Breach).

[LOLandStuff]

I am but one disgruntled and miserable person, while there are millions of people living their lives in the current world. Now why would I want to kill simply because I'm not even trying to fit in. It's not really about those people from the past as it is about me. What about those who managed to adapt? It's because of me they're in this situation, and it's just dumb restoring the "cool guys" just to feel all warm and fuzzy in my long lost surroundings.

 

Solas had what, like one year since he woke up? And even that year he slept it off. Also, his attitude didn't make him many friends either. The only reason he acted nice at times after joining the Inquisition was because of the orb. He basically lashes out at nearly everyone in your party.

 

And I'm thinking the only reason he wanted Cole as a spirit was for him to live through the merging. A human Cole doubtfully would survive it.

What a **** move there, Solas. He's not even trying to save his girlfriend. Now that's just sad.

[SgtSteel91]

I think a big thing with Solas is that he thinks this world isn't salvageable, especially the Elves, and it's better off starting over. Like especially the Elves. Think about it, every time he sees the Dalish, or even the City Elves, trying to express their culture, he gets a slap in the face that, essentially, the Evanuris won. Fen'Harel may have locked the elven gods in the veil, but the slaves he tried to free from their grip refused to let go of the propaganda, right down to preserving the tattoos that marked them as slaves as a badge of pride. I think a big part of trying to redeem him is showing him this world is worth saving.

[Uirebhiril]

I don't hold with just wiping everyone out, or causing a situation where that will be the end result. So I certainly don't agree with Solas on that.

 

But I was reading through banters from DAI last night and saw one where Solas is speaking to Varric. And Solas says:

 

"How can you be happy surrendering, knowing it will all end with you? How can you not fight?"

 

That really put things into an interesting perspective for me, because that is essentially what Solas is. The last of them, with whom it will all end with. The feelings of loss, homesickness, and isolation must be overwhelming to him, especially knowing that it was indirectly his fault and he has the opportunity to change it. Make it so it never happened that way, or so that what was can rise again and everything will be "right" with the world. No wonder his fear is dying alone.

 

I'm not sure how many of us wouldn't give in to the level of grief and guilt he must be feeling and want to do the same thing. We can sit here now and say there's no way we ever would, and in many cases that's probably true. It's just too easy to declare something one way or another when we aren't in that position now and likely never have been. I certainly hope none of us ever will be. But you don't have to like or agree with a plan to truly empathize with someone who is dealing with a difficult situation, and just by that line above I can. Being lost and alone in the world is probably the worst feeling there is, and as much as one might yell at Solas to just make new friends and find life and love, it would take a lot longer than a few years for that to really matter, especially to an immortal being. He does need to give things time, but even so... you are the last. They are all gone. Only you remain, alien and uncertain, in a changed world. Makes me shudder.

 

What I do know is that liking Solas does not mean people are delusional about him or what he is doing. He's got bad plans, but is an amazing character, and if he's going to be an antagonist he's at least one that's a lot more "human" to us than many others have been. I wonder sometimes if that's why people don't like him so much. He reminds us of our own flaws, and goodness knows we all have plenty of them that we try and ignore on a given day.

 

It's going to be really interesting to see where this story goes.

[Beomer]

OP you forgot to factor in that you also have to assume that you yourself destroyed the old world.

So the conditions are, you destroy this world to stop some great evil.

Then you go into cryo sleep and wake up thousands of years later to find a dystopian world.

 

 

I for one would not flip and flop like a fish out of water and stick with my decision. The old world went for a reason and it was ended knowing fully well what would be the consequences. Time to give the new world a chance.

[Aravasia]

Indeed. We can also point out that such people often are wrong by either their own stated moralities, or by the collective cultural morality systems by which they appeal.

 

 

 

 

Your 'philosophical' analogy is flawed because it doesn't reflect the dynamic Solas faces. Solas is not facing time travel, his actions are not time-travel delimmas in nature, and the equivalence between time travel and Solas's intentions for the future was false from the start. Nor is the appeal to a dystopic world well-founded: the nature of a dystopic world is one in which the majority of everyone is miserable and suffering from the nature of the world. Thedas is not- or rather, not in the sense that tearing down the Fade would fix it.

 

Trying to see things from Solas's perspective, but then presenting a viewpoint significantly different from Solas's perspective, is an exercise in deliberate mis-direction.

 

Solas provides us the anologies relevant to him- burning a world filled with Tranquil. That is his perspective, and that is one any intent to see his perspective needs to look through- not trying to recast his view to something more sympathetic for the player's palat.

 

 

 

Again, you're presenting flawed analogies to distort Solas's position. People in vegetative states are not able to survive on their own, or hold any views of their own existence. The people of Thedas do.

 

 

The fairer analogy, more accurate to Solas, is this example: Someone who must choose whether or not to kill someone with autism would likely feel guilt for doing so, however, it is as well likely that they believe they are doing 'the right thing.'

I believe that you are misunderstanding in that I am using every analogy as a comparison to Solas's situation. The 'vegetative state' parallel had been contrived as a means of explaining how an individual may feel guilt, even though they believe they are preforming the moral right. It had not been intended as a literal equivalence to Solas's condition.  

 

 

On the principle of time-travel, I imagine that you may have gathered the impression that my original question had been on such, due to the topic being prevalent throughout the tread, however, I did not include time-travel within the scenarios I had presented. The idea had been brought up later, and is, more-or-less unrelated to my original posed topic. 

If you recall, my question had pressed users to envision a world that would be dystopian to them. This had been a deliberate point, in that, the idea of a dystopia would vary between individuals. As such, one person whom believes he lives in a dystopia could still be surrounded by a community whom is relatively content with their lives, the idea is that the world be horrific to them, not necessarily to everyone. As such, the nature of a dystopian world is subjective.

Saying that a world where everyone is miserable may be your idea of a dystopia, but that is a subjective opinion. Candidly, a world where appalling actions overrule, and yet the population is content with living with such, is closer to my idea of a dystopia, than a world where everyone knows that change must occur. 

 

I understand your frustration with my presentation of having the scenario directly relate to Solas. As, the question had not been intended as a identical analogy, but rather, a line of thought that had evolved when reflecting on Solas's story. I did not instead, present a scenario indistinguishable from Solas's, because, as others have managed to mention, one is not truly needed. Solas provides a direct comparison himself between the current Dragon Age populace and tranquil. 

 

Presumably, I should have noted that my contrived scenario had been meant as a separate line of thought - a concept with resemblance to Solas, but not a direct analogy. If I had not related the question to Solas whatsoever, I would not have been able to post it. Which would have been unfortunate, as I believe the posters in this thread have cultivated many compelling ideas of thought. 

[adun12345]

He doesn't suppose himself 'really' a god because instead of ruling, he just 'does', and is, like any reasonable person might hopefully be, open to being proven wrong.

 

 

Solas does not consider himself to be a god.  He is a more powerful being, but he is not a god.

 

I recognize that Solas does not consider himself to be a god - he says so at least once in Trespasser.  His hypocrisy is not that blatant.  Again, I think he's an interesting character, and I look forward to them using him as an antagonist in the future.

 

However, Solas doesn't critique "gods" just because they call themselves gods, but also because of what self-proclaimed gods do.  Per Solas, would-be gods accumulate tremendous magical power.  They use their power to reshape all of reality according to their personal desires.  They do this even though it will harm many people around them.  They justify the collateral damage of their actions by telling themselves that they are better than the people they are harming.  Most perverse of all, they manipulate the trust of their victims, using their great power and knowledge to win the fervently loyal support of the very people that they intend to destroy.

 

Sound familiar?  Solas may claim that he is not a god, but other than the title itself his actions are the very ones that he despises in others.  His megalomania is of a more subtle sort than the narcissism of Elgar'nan or the psychosis of Corypheus, but that doesn't make his stance any less hypocritical.

[Illegitimus]

Solas's view obviously seems drastic (and perhaps slightly insane) to outside viewers, so I have been trying to think of a hypothetical scenario in which would allow others to question whether they could ever understand Solas's decision. As such, my questions follow as:

 

Say that you were given the choice to replace this world with the Dragon Age world (or whatever other ideal fantasy world - Mass Effect, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, etc.) even though this would result in the destruction of this world - and most likely everyone in it. Would you do it?

 

No.  But it's actually more complicated than that because everyone won't die.  Solas also described his creation of the veil in the first place as "destroying the world" but what he actually destroyed was "civilization on the continent of Thedas".  He changed the rules under which the world as they knew operated.  Suddenly most of the elves lost their magic, the economy collapsed, urban centers maybe experienced structural collapses as the magic holding them was disrupted, they experienced plague, invasion and starvation.  But for all that, not everyone died even among the elves.  I expect the death toll this time will weigh more heavily on the humans although many elves will die as well.  

[Vordish]

Solas is a liar, cheat and a willing mass murderer.

 

The ends NEVER justify the means. That is merely an excuse for any atrocity that one would wish to commit.

 

Anyone who argues against it would cry foul when someone attempted to treat them the same way. Why? Because his/her "way" is not "your" way and therefore one is not greater than the other. The result is hypocrisy and an argument of "I am more righteous than you" because "My way is morally superior".

 

Its nothing but an endless, vicious cycle.

 

Only God has the right to tell you what to do. No one else has that right and that is why people debate His existence...because most are not willing to obey any commandments from such a God or any God for that matter save themselves.

[Almostfaceman]

In Solas' case, a severe lack of perspective is the problem. I'm not at all keen on the idea that going backward is a particularly good solution.

 

Actually, I can totally understand his viewpoint. The world was frucked up before, so he raised the Veil. The world is still frucked up afterwards and his people are in even worse shape than before, so it's time to try another solution. Wars, the Blight, slavery, poverty, all still exist and innocent people are still dying by the droves. He may as well do what he can to adjust his solutions in fixing problems. The humans certainly haven't endeared themselves or acquitted themselves and have quite cheerily enslaved his brethren. If I were in his shoes, I wouldn't care what happened to them. 

[Almostfaceman]

Solas is a liar, cheat and a willing mass murderer.

 

The ends NEVER justify the means. That is merely an excuse for any atrocity that one would wish to commit.

 

Actually, the situation he was in, I could see myself doing the exact same thing. There were a group of very powerful beings out of control and enslaving everybody, killing anyone (see Mythal) who stood in their way. The state of things is extremely bad. What's going to change the world, wishful thinking? No, we'd fight for our freedom, just as Solas fought for his and for the freedom of his brothers and sisters. 

[Aravasia]

The ends NEVER justify the means. That is merely an excuse for any atrocity that one would wish to commit.

 

Anyone who argues against it would cry foul when someone attempted to treat them the same way. Why? Because his/her "way" is not "your" way and therefore one is not greater than the other. The result is hypocrisy and an argument of "I am more righteous than you" because "My way is morally superior".

 

 

I have to disagree. While, I am unsure of whether Solas's plan is truly for the 'greater good,' there are times in which horrible things must be done to accomplish something greater. Of course, the ends do not always justify the means, but I certainly do not believe that they never justify the means.

[Lady Elsa]

I really like Solas as a character but to me his perspective is a warped and deluded one. Ultimately he is arrogant and someone who becomes corrupted by his own power/knowledge without even noticing (ironic since he fought against power-corrupted beings passing off as gods) and is now looking for a  quick-fix 'miracle' solution to bring back the so called 'good old days' which he himself ended. Why work and struggle to make a better world when 'magic'?

 

On top of it, the world he is trying to bring back no longer exists just as Coryfish wanted to bring back an empire that no longer exists. His time, the ancient elves time is over, it will never be the same no matter what he does. Chances are the world he unknowingly brings back would be worst. If he wanted he could instead try to help the current elves, to teach them, guide them, help them build a new elven nation. But that would be too much effort,and would require him to relinquish the past and accept change. It is easier to deceive himself, though at least he allows Inky a chance to prove him wrong...

[In Exile]

False Equivalence.

Solas isn't going back in time and causing the Elven empire not to fall.

When the Inquisitor's party returns from the future, they aren't killing the world to do it. The WORST you could paint is the conjecture that they might be preventing some of the people born in the intervening year from existing. Infants who would have been killed when the out of control breach and demonic invasion destroyed the world anyway. At the same time, they are giving everyone who died over the course of the previous year due to the circumstances surrounding the Breach a second chance at life. But absolute worst case, it's a 'needs of the many over needs of the few' situation.

Solas is knowingly and willfully murdering millions for the sake of thousands. And he is willing to subject those thousands to the possible rule of immortal mage-tyrants, if that's what it takes to make the world what he's comfortable with. He's willing to destroy the world just to get back the devil he knows, rather than put in the time and effort to get to know the world as it is.

It's not a false equivalence. Do you think those people don't exist? The ones we met in that false future? Do you think the tortured Leliana is a figment of our imagination? That Alexius was just a made of spirit of the air? That the soldiers of the Inquisition didn't suffer and die at the hands of the Elder One?

No. We ERASE them from existence as far as we can tell. We obliterated - wholly, in a way that might be even worse and more mutilating than actually killing - every single living thing in the bad future.

The moral implications are extensive.

Let's talk about oblivion. Cessation of existence. Why do you think everyone is TERRIFIED of dying? Part of it just that - being blotted out of creation - everything you are vanishing forever.

That's what we did. Killing millions in a world with an afterlife is a comparative mercy. And if there is no afterlife, then the two things aren't just analogous, they're identical.

[In Exile]

Sure it can. We don't know exactly how DA's time travel works, so it's all conjecture. Those people either:

1. In time travel without alternate timelines, they were changed into never existing (and yes, I find that ridiculous, but that's time travel for you)

2. In time travel with alternate timelines, they simply went on existing in the Dark Future, just without the presence of Dorian and the Inquisitor

I don't think there is a third scenario here where they exist for a year and then simply stop. That wouldn't fit with either style of time travel.

The first is the scenario I'm talking about. That's the thing that's awful. The switch - from being something to nothing - is what a lot of people's fear of death looks like IRL. Not existing - and they did exist at one point - so very suddenly is curse.

[In Exile]

Insane gibbering demons are insane by the objective standard. Red lyrium monsters are mentally enslaved. Modern elves and humans are neither, but free-willed sentients with the ability for introspection, empathy, and to construct an objective evaluation of their contentment with existence and express a preference.


Seeing things from Solas's perspective doesn't mean his perspective is correct. He can, quite simply, be wrong, and be thinking according to illogical thinking traps.

I don't think he's correct. I think he's a genocidal loon, and probably the most evil and abominable figure we've met to date in DA, making Arl Howe look like a moral paragon of virtue. I'm just saying that Solas sees the present in the same way we saw that dark future - a horror to fix and correct, no matter the cost. That's his perspective.

[In Exile]

What we do know, however, is how he intended the world to burn- because he already pulled it off.

The Breach, the sundering of the Fade, and all that entails (which we already know because, again, Breach).

I don't think so. The breach wasn't exactly what he wanted. The breach happened when the Inquisitor picked up the foci and gained the anchor (or mark). Solas wanted that for himself.

I think the original plan was that Corypheus nukes himself, Solas grabs the foci and anchor, and then does whatever nightmarish plot he's planning to execute now. Except now I think he's going to have to do it with a blood magic ritual - the death of thousands of elves (the ones who disappear).

[Vordish]

@post 138

 

Right, that's like saying that because I'm a hunchback with large warts, smell like spoiled cabbage and riddled with all sorts of disease that I would have the excuse to go out and rape a woman because no one would sleep with me to continue my family line. After all, the ends justify the means. I would have done something "horrible" for something greater; new life.

 

Your argument is absolutely absurd. As I said before, you can justify ANYTHING with that mentality and you would have no objective right to tell me or anyone else I would be wrong in doing so.

 

The ends never justify the means. Ever.

[Aravasia]

@post 138

 

Right, that's like saying that because I'm a hunchback with large warts, smell like spoiled cabbage and riddled with all sorts of disease that I would have the excuse to go out and rape a woman because no one would sleep with me to continue my family line. After all, the ends justify the means. I would have done something "horrible" for something greater; new life.

 

Your argument is absolutely absurd. As I said before, you can justify ANYTHING with that mentality and you would have no objective right to tell me or anyone else I would be wrong in doing so.

 

The ends never justify the means. Ever.

The ends do not always justify the means. I would not believe they do in the scenario you described, but consider this one:

As a special operative, you become aware of a planned attack against a highly populated region by a violent outcast organization. You are able to apprehend one of the members of this group, however, they refuse to cooperate with you to allow you terminate the organization's plan. You could attempt to convince this person to preform the ethical action, but, you are on a limited time-span before the organization's attack is planned to take place. As such, the idea of torture presents itself as an option. Torture is immoral, but, do you see how, in this case, the 'ends may justify the means'? If you do not choose this route, undoubtedly thousands of lives will be sacrificed in the attack. 

 

Admittedly, I am unsure of what I would do in this situation, and, I am unsure of whether Solas's actions are truly on the basis for the 'greater good', or, simply what is best for his people, rather than what is best for life in general. However, I felt the need to contradict the concept that every good end is achieved by moral means. 

[Vordish]

Your argument is flawed specifically because you haven't defined exactly by what standard your judging any such situation by.

 

It is impossible to debate morality without debating the existence of God first. God is what defines morality. God is what defines what you can/should or cannot/should not do.

 

If you take the position that there is no God then your argument is meaningless because every situation is subjective and open to interpretation. Objectively; you would be no more correct than I would concerning anything.

 

If God does exist, however, then that changes everything. Morality is always subject to the absolute authority. The "absolute authority" without a God telling you what to do is always yourself...because "you" will always be the one who decides what is ultimately right or wrong for you to do.

 

Circular arguments are circular.

 

I believe in God(meaning the Almighty and Christ Jesus in the Bible) and Their standard as to what everyone should be obeying. In my studies of the Law and the Prophets and the New Testament I have seen no justification thus far for torture nor would I find any justification for what Solas is willing to do as presented in DAI.

 

Besides...letting someone else make the decision to sin and commit an atrocity does not mean I am responsible for his choice or his actions. If that truly were the case then everyone is responsible for everyone one way or another. I see no evidence to justify that stance.

[megageeklizzy]

Your argument is flawed specifically because you haven't defined exactly by what standard your judging any such situation by.

 

It is impossible to debate morality without debating the existence of God first. God is what defines morality. God is what defines what you can/should or cannot/should not do.

 

If you take the position that there is no God then your argument is meaningless because every situation is subjective and open to interpretation. Objectively; you would be no more correct than I would concerning anything.

 

If God does exist, however, then that changes everything. Morality is always subject to the absolute authority. The "absolute authority" without a God telling you what to do is always yourself...because "you" will always be the one who decides what is ultimately right or wrong for you to do.

 

Circular arguments are circular.

 

I believe in God(meaning the Almighty and Christ Jesus in the Bible) and Their standard as to what everyone should be obeying. In my studies of the Law and the Prophets and the New Testament I have seen no justification thus far for torture nor would I find any justification for what Solas is willing to do as presented in DAI.

 

Besides...letting someone else make the decision to sin and commit an atrocity does not mean I am responsible for his choice or his actions. If that truly were the case then everyone is responsible for everyone one way or another. I see no evidence to justify that stance.

It's possible to have morals without believing in a god.  You seem to have a very narrow-minded way of looking at morality.  It is absolutely possible to talk about morality without talking about religion, though the definition of morality that would fit such a conversation may be a bit different than what most people would define it as.  Your belief in God does not mean that video game characters in a world where Christianity doesn't even exist are to be judged.  Actually, according to your Bible, you shouldn't be judging anybody, but rather trying to help them redeem themselves by showing them love.

[Illegitimus]

 

 

I believe in God(meaning the Almighty and Christ Jesus in the Bible) and Their standard as to what everyone should be obeying. In my studies of the Law and the Prophets and the New Testament I have seen no justification thus far for torture nor would I find any justification for what Solas is willing to do as presented in DAI.

 

 

Aw hey that's easy. Solas would be restoring the world to what it was originally was when created by "The Maker".  Therefore justified.  

[megageeklizzy]

Aw hey that's easy. Solas would be restoring the world to what it was originally was when created by "The Maker".  Therefore justified.  

...or maybe it's like Noah's ark.  Solas is cleansing the world to start fresh.

[diaspora2k5]

...or maybe it's like Noah's ark.  Solas is cleansing the world to start fresh.

I don't think he plans on anybody surviving. Felassan wouldn't have bothered trying to keep Solas away from the power of the Eluvians otherwise.