225 réponses à ce sujet

[megageeklizzy]

During this period, Joshua destroyed all the descendants of Anak, who lived in the hill country of Hebron, Debir, Anab, and the entire hill country of Judah and Israel.  He killed them all and completely destroyed their towns.  Not one was left in all the land of Israel, though some still remained in Gaza, Gath, and Ashdod.  So Joshua took control of the entire land, just as the LORD had instructed Moses.  He gave it to the people of Israel as their special possession, dividing the land among the tribes.  So the land finally had rest from war.   (Joshua 11:21-23 NLT)

 

Sounds very similar to Solas.

[Nube7]

I cant help but sympathise with Solas, not his actions, but his motives. He remembers how it used to be when the fade was one with the world. He's been tormented by the aftermath of putting up the veil, from knowing that he killed hundreds of thousands if not millions so at least a few would remain. Those that remained, however, were only shadows of what they once were. Whatever the evanuris had done to them, the greater betrayal in their eyes,came from their once savior, the dread wolf.

Take a minute to just imagine what the immediate aftermath of putting up the veil was. The state of shock that must've overcome the survivors from loosing a piece of themselves, the anger and fear of seeing themselves age, how many more died simply because they gave up on living in this post apocalyptic world. That was what Solas saw last, before he went to sleep for millenia.

He awoke, his grief still raw from his past mistakes, to a world full of chaos, suffering, and injustice. The slavery he fought so hard to topple was once again in every corner of Thedas, and once more the elves were the ones paying the price for his actions. This alien world denied him at every turn, humans saw him as a lesser creature, the dalish branded him a heretic, the new forms of government that ruled over thedas were just as bad or even worse than what the evanuris had instated.

Everything was wrong, it was his fault, and he had to fix it. Solas acted on these emotions, no longer having someone to confide in, an equal to help him see other alternatives, a friend to stop him.

Meeting the inquisitor should have changed everything. For the first time since waking he fought for a cause as a member of a group. Travelling together, interacting with them, he found himself not pitying them, but fighting, laughing, and quarreling with them. Every interaction he has with an inquisitor he falls in love with shows his inner conflict. Because of her, because of them, he finds himself giving in to this new world, and just when he is about to let go, a stronger emotion pulls him. Perhaps it is pride, perhaps he thinks it would be too easy to allow himself to accept things as how they are, to ignore all that he has done, the pain he has caused, and allow himself the chance to be happy.

Whatever the inquisitor is to him, lover, friend , or foe, he lets his rival live. He reveals his past, plans, and intentions to the only person capable of being his equal in a battle that will decide the fate of the world. The board is set, and while he will do everything inhis power in order to win, he also hopes he will lose.

[QueenCrow]

I think I have to agree with what Nube7 has said.  I can understand the terrible pain caused to Solas by the unanticipated result of his actions.  He tried to help, twice (freeing the Elves from their Overlords and then the Veil), and the result was destruction.  I can empathize with the pain of being responsible for such destruction, especially when the destruction was of the very people he was trying to help.

 

Where Solas and I diverge is that I can't overlook that he is warping himself into the very thing he despises.  He believes it's his decision alone to decide the fate of the world and make that fate happen?  He is able, somehow, to dismiss that everything he's done thus far hasn't gone according to his plans?  And more, if Solas is the one who killed Felassan in Masked Empire, then he is nothing but a malignant narcissist who uses people and rids himself of them when they are of no use to his purpose.  Nevermind respecting Felassan's free will, or anyone else's freedom to live, and choose.

 

The difference between Solas and me is that he overestimates himself - though he doesn't claim to be a god, he sure seems to have a god-complex.  Change the world to try and make it better?  Sure, I'd attempt that.  Destroy it to replace it with my singular vision of utopia while dismissing all other people living in the world?  Nope. Never.

[KaiserShep]

The duty of man is to fear God and keep his commandments. Whether in actual statute or in other places as mentioned in the scriptures.

I assume this refers to the god with the most marketshare, but what happens when another religion beats it out in terms of the population of its believers?

[Shechinah]

I leave for about a day and come back to this... I love these forums!

[wildannie]

I think a big thing with Solas is that he thinks this world isn't salvageable, especially the Elves, and it's better off starting over. Like especially the Elves. Think about it, every time he sees the Dalish, or even the City Elves, trying to express their culture, he gets a slap in the face that, essentially, the Evanuris won. Fen'Harel may have locked the elven gods in the veil, but the slaves he tried to free from their grip refused to let go of the propaganda, right down to preserving the tattoos that marked them as slaves as a badge of pride. I think a big part of trying to redeem him is showing him this world is worth saving.

 

I do wonder if the use of valeslin was something they returned to in desperation to try and apologize to the gods for rebelling against them.  Their legends have truth in them over what Solas did to the veil, so when that went wrong for the elves I think they turned back to plead with the Evanuris to save them.

 

re OP:  I think I can understand why Solas is planning to drop the veil, not that I agree with it though.  

 

I personally have a pretty bleak opinion of the world we actually live in, and while I am a total softie and pretty much wouldn't hurt a fly, when I try and imagine what I would do if I had magic with the power to change things, I can't honestly say that I'd sit back and do nothing at all.  Would I kill people?  Nope, but I think it is a safe bet that I'd be seriously infringing upon certain peoples freedoms. I would undoubtedly set out to change the world to one that I would consider to be fairer and more just

and I have no doubt that there would be many in society who would be up in arms and ultimately be out to kill me for it.

 

Modern Thedas is also a world that needs fixing, its problems run deep, brimming with racism, bigotry and inequality.  I honestly don't imagine there is any way back for the elves in the current setting.

To arrive in that world, which is not the world you know,  as Solas did,  it would be difficult to find a reason not to fix it.  Adding to that the fact that he was responsible for the current state of affairs makes his decision easier to understand.  He absolutely loves a romanced Lavellan, but he is giving that up because he believes restoring his people is more important than his own personal happiness.  He is prepared to destroy himself, become a monster, to fix this because he sees no other way.  I do hope that someone (cole??) can change his mind.

[Illegitimus]

 

 

The ends can NEVER justify the means.

 

Funny story.  The whole concept of "ends justifying means" originated with the Jesuits when dealing with the question of what was or was not acceptable when on covert missions.  If a priest is sneaking into a country where he'll be jailed should he reveal what he is, then in order to serve the faithful without endangering both yourself and anyone you are helping or who is helping you, you're going to have to do some dodgy things, like lying about who you are, your business and your faith.  And thus originated the expression, "The ends justify the means" in the Jesuit discussion of just what ends justify just what means.  The Jesuits of course did a draw a line.  There were some means in their view that no conceivable end could justify.  Desecrating the miracle-working relic of a saint comes to mind.  But as I play through Origins and look at my character's kill total of regular human beings, dwarves and elves obviously there's a wee bit of ends justifying my means going on.  

[Poledo]

Solas's view obviously seems drastic (and perhaps slightly insane) to outside viewers, so I have been trying to think of a hypothetical scenario in which would allow others to question whether they could ever understand Solas's decision. As such, my questions follow as:

 

Say that you were given the choice to replace this world with the Dragon Age world (or whatever other ideal fantasy world - Mass Effect, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, etc.) even though this would result in the destruction of this world - and most likely everyone in it. Would you do it?

 

To add to that, would you still do it if it meant the death of all of your loved ones? Or, would you do it if you had no loved ones here?

 

 

 

Alternatively, say that this world was replaced with a dystopian world (this is likely different for everyone, so, just imagine a world that would be horrible to you.) Again, would you destroy that world to bring this one back? What if you had friends or a loved one there?

 

This is, of course, ignoring the guilt portion of being responsible that goes along with Solas's decision. But I am curious what others would do in these scenarios.  

 

Well I said this in another thread, and people thought I was being edgy Yet I am really just referring to a very real correlation. People wonder how anyone could support this; yet we have a religion (and a very popular one at that) where "God" killed mostly everything on the earth with a flood because he didn't like how it turned out, and wanted a fresh start. Now we have Solas wanted to eradicate the veil and in so doing killing most beings on the planet so he can put things back the way they were.

Apparently it's not that hard for people to see his point of view.

[Vordish]

@174,175

 

I do not take the stance that if there is a God that He would never care to make His presence or will known to his creation. It defeats the purpose of being a God in the first place as authority always makes itself known in some way. We see that in everyday life. If it truly is to the contrary then I wouldn't care to believe it as our lives mean nothing in the end. I really do not believe anyone in their heart-of-hearts would want it to be that way. That is just the way we work.

 

I do not take the "normal" stance of belief in God being a spiritual or "personal relationship" with the Almighty through Jesus Christ. This implies personal interpretation over everything else. That is not to say I don't believe in them, because I do. Whole-heartedly. It is not a matter of "blind faith"...it is a matter of "faith based on evidence". The world is based on mechanics and law and intent behind them. I see no reason as to why it wouldn't be the same with how we should live our lives because that IS the issue; how are you going to live your life?

 

Well, commands and statutes and judgments. We do everything we can to establish our own type of law and government in this world while ignoring the scriptures. For instance; killers are executed. They do not get "life in prison". There are no jail systems in the scriptures. Kind for kind. Do you really think its fair to the victim and the victims family that someone who has taken a life gets to continue to live? I don't. In addition, rape is treated as someone who killed someone else. How much do you think society would change if this punishment was applied? It would change drastically.

 

Those are just examples. From my studies His Laws are more fair and just than anything that I have ever seen in society. If you disagree then that is your problem, but it is not just that; it is also prophecy such as those given in the Book of Daniel. There are several groups which dispute the authenticity of Daniel because the prophecies of world powers was so specific that they claim it was written after the fact. Yet, my answer to this would be the Dead Sea Scrolls. There were fragments of every book, except for Esther, found in Qumran. The dating of the books all indicate that they were hundreds of years before the time of Christ and were considered scripture. They claim Daniel was not so because of prophecy, but if you remove that aspect then Daniel is still dated the same as the others like the fragments of Isaiah which means that criticism of Daniel is unjustified and that is incredible evidence for supporting the Bible.

 

We crave explanation. From what I have seen and studied, the scriptures are the only thing that gives an explanation for the origin of the world and how we are supposed to live our lives and is the most complete exposition of the nature of God.

 

You at least concede the possibility of the existence of God. Well, there isn't much more I could say in that regard except I would direct you to the Bible and for you to get a Strong's Concordance, Gesenius Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon of the Old Testament, Brown Driver Briggs Lexicon, Thayer's Greek Lexicon and a BDAG and study the scriptures; its law and its prophecy. The Hebrew and Greek. Do not trust the English translation as 100% accurate...because it is not.

 

All in all; God = absolute authority = absolute morality = less than God is subjective based on individual = your way or my way is no less or greater than the other = only two choices; believe in yourself or believe in a God as for what you would do in life.

 

There isn't really anything else that needs to be said.

[Cobra's_back]

I do not believe that his motivations are selfish (or are made out of loneliness) given that he would be losing people he cares about (assuming he and your Inquisitor were friendly) for a people that now resent him, judging by the codex entries they wrote about him.

 

Most people do not progress beyond the conventional stage to post-conventional morality, meaning, most people consider personal stakes over what is best for the whole. (Consider a hypothetical scenario where you are forced to choose saving your most loved one over two other people, most people would save their loved one, even at the cost of the two other lives.) However, I believe Solas has post-conventional morality, meaning, he makes the choice that he believes is best for everyone, regardless of how it affects him personally. 

 

Solas has no logic. Nature is not perfect and he is not perfect. Therefore this decision shouldn't be his. He has countless examples where he screwed up. He does this because he is lonely for his kind. Remember his fear was being alone. He has been a deceiver for so long that he is actually deceiving himself. 

 

So no I would never decide to destroy a world, because I know any world is imperfect. 

[Poledo]

Solas has no logic. Nature is not perfect and he is not perfect. Therefore this decision shouldn't be his. He has countless examples where he screwed up. He does this because he is lonely for his kind. Remember his fear was being alone. He has been a deceiver for so long that he is actually deceiving himself. 

 

So no I would never decide to destroy a world, because I know any world is imperfect. 

 

He is a romantic and as such romanticizes the past, and has succumbed to nostalgia. Remembering the good yet glossing over the bad. We do this in our short lives, how poorly is he remembering the past when his past is thousands of years ago?

[Cobra's_back]

I think I have to agree with what Nube7 has said.  I can understand the terrible pain caused to Solas by the unanticipated result of his actions.  He tried to help, twice (freeing the Elves from their Overlords and then the Veil), and the result was destruction.  I can empathize with the pain of being responsible for such destruction, especially when the destruction was of the very people he was trying to help.

 

Where Solas and I diverge is that I can't overlook that he is warping himself into the very thing he despises.  He believes it's his decision alone to decide the fate of the world and make that fate happen?  He is able, somehow, to dismiss that everything he's done thus far hasn't gone according to his plans?  And more, if Solas is the one who killed Felassan in Masked Empire, then he is nothing but a malignant narcissist who uses people and rids himself of them when they are of no use to his purpose.  Nevermind respecting Felassan's free will, or anyone else's freedom to live, and choose.

 

The difference between Solas and me is that he overestimates himself - though he doesn't claim to be a god, he sure seems to have a god-complex.  Change the world to try and make it better?  Sure, I'd attempt that.  Destroy it to replace it with my singular vision of utopia while dismissing all other people living in the world?  Nope. Never.

 

Big time! 

During this period, Joshua destroyed all the descendants of Anak, who lived in the hill country of Hebron, Debir, Anab, and the entire hill country of Judah and Israel.  He killed them all and completely destroyed their towns.  Not one was left in all the land of Israel, though some still remained in Gaza, Gath, and Ashdod.  So Joshua took control of the entire land, just as the LORD had instructed Moses.  He gave it to the people of Israel as their special possession, dividing the land among the tribes.  So the land finally had rest from war.   (Joshua 11:21-23 NLT)

 

Sounds very similar to Solas.

 

Old Testament, problem many Christians see the bible as cryptic, and more about a lesson, and not actually a real event. Christians as  defined as followers of Christ which is after the Old Testament.

 

As for Solas he is NOT a GOD. He is playing GOD.

[Lunatic Lace]

Those arguments are moot because what Inqy is trying to do is go back home and prevent that future to pass. Everyone in that future already exists in current-day Thedas (or they still haven't been born). It's not the same thing as what Solas is trying to do, which can potentially murder everyone that exists right now.

 

I was also under the impression that the future world was pretty much in ruin at that point, and the majority of the population was dead (if the number of bodies in the castle were any indication). It seemed to me that going back for Alexius was the last thing on Cory's bucket list. If anything, going back in time saved millions of lives, including all of those nasty little demons and red templars you kill there.

 

Unless I'm missing something, it's a poor comparison.

[Aravasia]

@174,175

 

I do not take the stance that if there is a God that He would never care to make His presence or will known to his creation. It defeats the purpose of being a God in the first place as authority always makes itself known in some way. We see that in everyday life. If it truly is to the contrary then I wouldn't care to believe it as our lives mean nothing in the end. I really do not believe anyone in their heart-of-hearts would want it to be that way. That is just the way we work.

 

I do not take the "normal" stance of belief in God being a spiritual or "personal relationship" with the Almighty through Jesus Christ. This implies personal interpretation over everything else. That is not to say I don't believe in them, because I do. Whole-heartedly. It is not a matter of "blind faith"...it is a matter of "faith based on evidence". The world is based on mechanics and law and intent behind them. I see no reason as to why it wouldn't be the same with how we should live our lives because that IS the issue; how are you going to live your life?

I do not believe that religion is the only instrument in finding meaning in life. Perhaps the meaning in life is to search for meaning. 

 

 

Well, commands and statutes and judgments. We do everything we can to establish our own type of law and government in this world while ignoring the scriptures. For instance; killers are executed. They do not get "life in prison". There are no jail systems in the scriptures. Kind for kind. Do you really think its fair to the victim and the victims family that someone who has taken a life gets to continue to live? I don't. In addition, rape is treated as someone who killed someone else. How much do you think society would change if this punishment was applied? It would change drastically.

 

Those are just examples. From my studies His Laws are more fair and just than anything that I have ever seen in society. If you disagree then that is your problem, 

I do disagree, wholeheartedly. I could not follow a religion that dictates that anyone should burn in hell for an eternity for a crime of any nature. That is far worse than any government, or action in human history that I am aware of. People are not black and white. They preform wrong actions out of hurt, or because they believe they are doing the right thing. People are not comic-book villains. No-one is just evil for the sake of being evil. People deserve compassion and forgiveness, not an eternity of torment. 

 

 

We crave explanation. From what I have seen and studied, the scriptures are the only thing that gives an explanation for the origin of the world and how we are supposed to live our lives and is the most complete exposition of the nature of God.

As someone whom studies cosmology, I can tell you that that religion is not the only explanation for the origin of the universe. In fact, it directly conflicts with what has so far been scientifically valid. However, I tend to be more of a believer in the idea of partial knowledge, meaning, supposed fact is always debatable. Nevertheless, there are many explanations both scientific and non-scientific for the origin of life. 

 

 

You at least concede the possibility of the existence of God. Well, there isn't much more I could say in that regard except I would direct you to the Bible and for you to get a Strong's Concordance, Gesenius Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon of the Old Testament, Brown Driver Briggs Lexicon, Thayer's Greek Lexicon and a BDAG and study the scriptures; its law and its prophecy. The Hebrew and Greek. Do not trust the English translation as 100% accurate...because it is not.

At the minimum, you appear to be knowledgeable in your chosen belief system. Many blindly follow religion without further study of it because they were induced to it at a young and impressionable age (unless you were as well, in which case, I am sorry.) 

 

 

All in all; God = absolute authority = absolute morality = less than God is subjective based on individual = your way or my way is no less or greater than the other = only two choices; believe in yourself or believe in a God as for what you would do in life.

It appears that you are not open to the idea that your beliefs do not provide an objective morality, so, I will not attempt convince you any further on the matter. I hope that this does not come across as presumptuous, but, if I may ask, why do you choose to believe in the religious structure that you do? You mentioned how human beings are meant to "fear and obey God." You come across as though you  follow it out of apprehension and submission. I just do not understand why anyone would wish to live that way. 

 

At the very least, this has been a somewhat interesting debate. I appreciate you engaging me. 

[Cobra's_back]

If your God commanded you to murder billions of people without any end goal, would you still obey? This is why deriving your morals from an outside source is detrimental.

 

Well a GOD shouldn't command anyone to kill billions period. If the GOD created all then telling one to kill billions is to admit error. If he admits error then why listen to him blindly.

 

Now if the guy is talking about Christ, I thought he stated "love your enemy". That has to be 180 degrees away from killing.

[Aravasia]

Solas has no logic. Nature is not perfect and he is not perfect. Therefore this decision shouldn't be his. He has countless examples where he screwed up. He does this because he is lonely for his kind. Remember his fear was being alone. He has been a deceiver for so long that he is actually deceiving himself. 

 

So no I would never decide to destroy a world, because I know any world is imperfect. 

I would not say that nature is never as what we define perfect. Mathematics in physics provides some perfection to the world, depending on your interpretation of the word. I do agree with the opinion that Solas is not perfect, however. I am unsure of his motivations. It could be out of loneliness, but, I am inclined to believe that it is out of responsibility of guilt more than anything else.  I do not believe he is going to feel justified and guiltless enough at the end of it in order to enjoy his new society and thus, alleviate his loneliness.

[Aravasia]

Well a GOD shouldn't command anyone to kill billions period. If the GOD created all then telling one to kill billions is to admit error. If he admits error then why listen to him blindly.

 

Now if the guy is talking about Christ, I thought he stated "love your enemy". That has to be 180 degrees away from killing.

I believe the poster whom I had been responding to follows the Old Biblical Testament (?) I am unsure. This is probably a question you should be directing at him. 

[Cobra's_back]

I would not say that nature is never as what we define perfect. Mathematics in physics provides some perfection to the world, depending on your interpretation of the word. I do agree with the opinion that Solas is not perfect, however. I am unsure of his motivations. It could be out of loneliness, but, I am inclined to believe that it is out of responsibility of guilt more than anything else.  I do not believe he is going to feel justified and guiltless enough at the end of it in order to enjoy his new society and thus, alleviate his loneliness.

Mathematics in physics clearly states that nature is not perfect. It is always changing and needs to. Evolution is required to keep things in balance. Mathematics and physics can not model all possible events. There are too many variables. Even something as simple as communications is modeled, but with enough tolerance to overcome anomalies which we could not predict or control in our model.

 

So someone who loves logic would really have a hard time with Solas.

[Aravasia]

Mathematics in physics clearly states that nature is not perfect. It is always changing and needs to. Evolution is required to keep things in balance. Mathematics and physics can not model all possible events. There are too many variables. Even something as simple as communications is modeled, but with enough tolerance to overcome anomalies which we could not predict or control in our model.

 

So someone who loves logic would really have a hard time with Solas.

Again, this is highly subjective to what your interpretation of perfection is. In our universe, one plus one will always equal two, unless you take an anti-realist view of reality, meaning that such logic is open to interpretation and will vary on the basis of different perceptions between individuals. I do not disagree that nature is not perfect, I just do not concur  with the the idea that it is never perfect as an undeniable fact. 

 

Whether Solas's actions are logical I cannot say, a defined meaning for logic would first be needed. 

[Vordish]

@189

 

My point is if a God does not exist then your trying to find meaning in life in any other way is ultimately fruitless. You will die and you will stay dead forever. Eventually, everyone else will follow. Is that really so compelling to you? The journey doesn't matter if your dead in the end.

 

I also never claimed that the scriptures supported the belief that there is an ever-burning hell that sinners will exist in for all time. I told you I believed in the Bible; you are the one who put a so-called "Christian" belief into it. I claim that the vast majority of what has been taught of the scriptures is a lie. This is why I also encouraged you to study on your own with the sources of the Hebrew and Greek that I presented to you. In addition, the problem with arbitrary statements concerning the Bible when in relation to sin and punishment; the definition of what constitutes "evil" is never truly defined. Hence, the issue of God in the first place.

 

Yes. I am aware of other "possible" explanations of the origin of the universe, but in the end there is really only so many ways one could attempt to explain it. It always boils down to either an explanation without a God or an explanation with one...in some form or another. Of course, then one might argue concerning what constitutes a real God and whatnot-- it doesn't really matter. Either one exists or one does not. If a God does not exist then who are you or I to say that anyone else who decides to live their life the way they choose doesn't have the right to do so? We don't.

 

Yes, I was introduced to the Bible at a very young age...and I would not be honest in stating that I have not doubted and debated a great many things concerning it since then. I then chose to study further to make absolutely sure if what I was being taught was the truth. Some of what I was taught was exposed as a lie...while others things were not. I continued to study and found that a great many things of what is taught in society about God and the Bible are, in fact, lies themselves and I have yet to see anything conclusively show anything from the Bible to be a lie or not verifiable. The problem was not the scriptures; but what people said about the scriptures. I choose "faith based on evidence" and not "faith just because".

 

I am very much open to the idea concerning my beliefs not being objective, but my point remains; you would have to show conclusive evidence that a God does not exist. That is the key. If He does exist and doesn't care...it still supports your argument. I take the position that God does exist and He does care and He does command us to obey Him.

 

The possibility of a God that commands us to obey(and we not obeying) punishing us for disobedience at some point in time does scare me. Why wouldn't it? It is a possibility, after all. I am not willing to take that chance. I am, at the very least, open to the possibility that a God does not exist, but to be fair I would also have to be open to the possibility of the opposite. Punishment by God, at least in the Bible, is because of what God constitutes to be evil; that which is not His will. We sinning against our fellow men always harms them in some form such a stealing, lieing, killing, raping, oppressing the poor, slander and libel, negligent homicide, false witness on testimony...etc. We sinning against God violates His intention for us and His will; putting our own fallible laws and governments in the place of Him which always serves only ourselves and never truly our fellow man.

 

That is a distinction that a lot of people are unaware of. When you truly analyze what constitutes "sin" in the scriptures, you then understand that each and every sin we do is truly harmful either in the short term or the long term either for yourself or someone else. Yet, people just see the punishment mentioned in the Bible and then claim God is wrathful and vengeful. It isn't a fair claim on their part.

 

Certain "clichés" of the Bible and Christ Jesus are true; God is love. What people really do not tend to think about is that actually explains why we exist; God wants a family and what use is creating automatons or people who would do it anyways without us doing so of our own volition? It is worthless otherwise. We have to choose. Therefore, we have the Bible where it is explained the origin of the universe and we have His laws; which show us how to treat our fellow men and how to obey God. I have not seen those laws as unjust or unfair--quite the opposite. I have studied prophecy along with a great many other people and I have yet to see any evidence to show that those prophecies are untrue.

 

So, all of this together is why I would believe in it and the fear of it not being true is a driving factor. It is a driving factor for everyone. That is why people argue against it...because if its not true then what do you have to be concerned with?

 

Nothing, really, but I am not willing to take that chance.

[Cobra's_back]

Again, this is highly subjective to what your interpretation of perfection is. In our universe, one plus one will always equal two, unless you take an anti-realist view of reality, meaning that such logic is open to interpretation and will vary on the basis of different perceptions between individuals. I do not disagree that nature is not perfect, I just do not concur  with the the idea that it is never perfect as an undeniable fact. 

 

Whether Solas's actions are logical I cannot say, a defined meaning for logic would first be needed. 

My background is electrical engineering, and no physic professor will ever tell you the Universe is linear or perfect. One +one has nothing to do with Physic. Nature has variances. That is what physic will teach science students.

[Aravasia]

My background is electrical engineering, and no physic professor will ever tell you the Universe is linear or perfect. One +one has nothing to do with Physic. Nature has variances. That is what physic will teach science students.

I certainly did not make the argument that the universe is linear or perfect, such a thing is completely unknown. The 'one plus one' example was an illustration of logic, not physics. Although, I disagree with the notion that the example has nothing to do with physics, physics is - in simple terms - mathematics applied to explain the laws that govern the universe. As such, mathematical equations are highly related. Regardless, my argument was not that nature is perfect in its entirety, but rather that perfection can occur in nature, depending on your meaning of the word.

For example, the Fibonacci sequence found in the construction of several nature-made products could be an illustration of perfection in nature. 

[KaiserShep]

 The journey doesn't matter if your dead in the end.

 

To put it more aptly, the journey doesn't matter to you. 

[RedMagister]

My background is electrical engineering, and no physic professor will ever tell you the Universe is linear or perfect. One +one has nothing to do with Physic. Nature has variances. That is what physic will teach science students.

 

Why wouldn't your professor say that the world is already perfect as it is? especially in physics when everything is just- as it is?

 

“I... a universe of atoms, an atom in the universe.”

:] lol. and math majors would argue with you. The variances in Nature has patterns- in fact the variances are exactly what we expect. Chaos is literally perfect in the eyes of nature, does that make sense?

 

But this is off topic! 

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Solas is no god, but he seeks to shape the world like a normal person wants to shape the world. We take him down >:] i'm kidding. I hope as players we help him find peace. 

[Aravasia]

@189

 

My point is if a God does not exist then your trying to find meaning in life in any other way is ultimately fruitless. You will die and you will stay dead forever. Eventually, everyone else will follow. Is that really so compelling to you? The journey doesn't matter if your dead in the end.

There are methods for gaining meaning in life apart from the idea of an after-life, and, anyway, people may believe in an after-life without the existence of a God. I, as well, disagree that death bears the end to all meaning. Even if, the entirety of the human species were annihilated tomorrow, we existed, and thus, have made an imprint.

Have you ever heard of the 'butterfly effect'? It is a scientific phenomenon that I find fascinating. The idea is, that something so seemingly insignificant, such as the flap of a butterfly's wings, alters the course of history forever. Simply put, the smallest occurrences matter. If you, or I, or this entire world ceased to exist at this very moment, everything would not just lose its meaning, the entire universe would have been altered by our mere existence. 

 

 

I also never claimed that the scriptures supported the belief that there is an ever-burning hell that sinners will exist in for all time. I told you I believed in the Bible; you are the one who put a so-called "Christian" belief into it. I claim that the vast majority of what has been taught of the scriptures is a lie. 

I see, I made an assumption for which I apologize. I am glad that you do not condone such a horrible fate for anyone. 

 

 

I choose "faith based on evidence" and not "faith just because".

I must ask, if you say that you believe in a faith based on evidence, what do you define as evidence, and, how do you deal with other 'evidence' that contradicts your beliefs?

 

 

I am very much open to the idea concerning my beliefs not being objective, but my point remains; you would have to show conclusive evidence that a God does not exist. That is the key. If He does exist and doesn't care...it still supports your argument. I take the position that God does exist and He does care and He does command us to obey Him.

I cannot show you evidence that a God does not exist, nor can you show me evidence that he does and thus an objective moral code exists (that is, assuming one would accept the morals of a God as an objective source.) - this is why I am agnostic, neither side may win.

Although, I could direct you towards stated evidence that goes against literal interpretations of biblical events, but, then again, I already mentioned the idea of partial knowledge (which I imagine that you hold true as well) that could compensate for any facts presented against your beliefs. 

 

 

That is a distinction that a lot of people are unaware of. When you truly analyze what constitutes "sin" in the scriptures, you then understand that each and every sin we do is truly harmful either in the short term or the long term either for yourself or someone else. Yet, people just see the punishment mentioned in the Bible and then claim God is wrathful and vengeful. It isn't a fair claim on their part.

I do not disagree that some of the 'sins' stated in your faith are harmful. I just do not believe in punishment for the sake of punishment. I believe in redemption, where actual learning and enlightenment occurs. 

 

 

Certain "clichés" of the Bible and Christ Jesus are true; God is love. What people really do not tend to think about is that actually explains why we exist; God wants a family and what use is creating automatons or people who would do it anyways without us doing so of our own volition? It is worthless otherwise. We have to choose. Therefore, we have the Bible where it is explained the origin of the universe and we have His laws; which show us how to treat our fellow men and how to obey God. I have not seen those laws as unjust or unfair--quite the opposite. I have studied prophecy along with a great many other people and I have yet to see any evidence to show that those prophecies are untrue.

But, explain this: even those whom have never been exposed to the idea of a God have the capacity for love and kindness. If God is the only way to such then how is such a thing possible?

 

 

So, all of this together is why I would believe in it and the fear of it not being true is a driving factor. It is a driving factor for everyone. That is why people argue against it...because if its not true then what do you have to be concerned with?

 

Nothing, really, but I am not willing to take that chance.

I see. The idea that you fear meaningless of existence and retribution if you are wrong in abandoning your beliefs is understandable and able to be empathized with. 

 

Thankyou for taking the time to explain your reasoning of beliefs to me. While, I may disagree with your convictions, as someone whom considers themselves fairly flexible, I have always been interested in the reasoning of those whom follow stricter doctrines.