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Leliana 's a lie....


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#151
Captmorgan72

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Makes no sense at all. If she is a ghost, how come she can get so badly brutalized during that time travel mission in Redcliffe? And why does she need help with her personal mission during DA:I? +...you know...She wants to become The Divine badly. Surely she knows campaigning for that is rather dumb is she is a ghost?

Isn't Cole a spirit made flesh? He can be injured just as anyone else. The same is true of her. I'm guessing she didn't know she was a spirit made flesh until the end, in Trespasser. I'm assuming that her memories started returning slowly throughout the game and it was confusing her.  



#152
leaguer of one

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Shouldn't everyone that got killed at the Sacred Ashes attack at the start of DA:I get "raised" too then? If it only takes the lyrium in the bedrock to do it.

Where at Haven in dai, not the temple. And a fade explosion over powers that being that the entire temple is blown up.



#153
Rawgrim

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Where at Haven in dai, not the temple. And a fade explosion over powers that being that the entire temple is blown up.

 

The temple of sacred ashes gets blown up at the start of the game. Its kind of hard to understand what you mean. Your english is a bit off at times.



#154
Rawgrim

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Isn't Cole a spirit made flesh? He can be injured just as anyone else. The same is true of her. I'm guessing she didn't know she was a spirit made flesh until the end, in Trespasser. I'm assuming that her memories started returning slowly throughout the game and it was confusing her.  

 

Her memory seems tip top all through the game, really.



#155
SnackPackWarrior

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Isn't Cole a spirit made flesh? He can be injured just as anyone else. The same is true of her. I'm guessing she didn't know she was a spirit made flesh until the end, in Trespasser. I'm assuming that her memories started returning slowly throughout the game and it was confusing her.  

Cole isn't exactly made of flesh, he possessed the body of a dying boy. The body he possesses can be injured, but he's a spirit, so he can exist regardless of the condition of his corporeal form, his body becomes too harmed, theoretically he could possess another. My guess is if Leliana truly became a lyrium-induced spirit, the only reason she'd lose her form would be due to lack of purpose or direction; the video even explicitly says "until I am needed, I am free", which could be interpreted as unshackled to a physical entity. If Cole remained a spirit and returned to the Fade, he would likely shed his body and find a new one. But since Leliana wasn't initially a spirit, she has her own identity and sense of individuality so her form is tied to her and seems to be able to manifest itself regardless of the condition of her corpse. My guess is it likely has to do with her dying in the presence of the Sacred Ashes, and some sort of Andraste/Maker-y miracle working its magic; at least until we get the facts about the true nature of Andraste it would be difficult to prove. Hopefully it's some **** like the elven pantheon.



#156
SomeoneStoleMyName

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This is pretty much opposite karma for the player. Get rewarded with catharsis for being a murderous blasphemer lol.

 

Finally a reasonable explanation as to why I can't romance her. The "Can't romance her because she MIGHT have been with the warden" was such an illogical and silly reasoning. Glad I killed her in origins so I atleast have a reasonable excuse for not being able to romance her. People who did not kill her still has to deal with the "Sorry bro, can't because the fans that might have romanced the warden would feel betrayed". Very happy with this. Best case scenario.



#157
leaguer of one

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Her memory seems tip top all through the game, really.

She's an over 10 year old spirit. Cole is just 2 0r 3 years old when you met him. Also, Cole in dai does not have a memory problem.



#158
leaguer of one

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Cole isn't exactly made of flesh, he possessed the body of a dying boy. 

No he is not.



#159
Phoe77

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There's no reason that the Guardian being able to leave the temple should refute that he was being sustained by the lyrium, especially considering it's ambiguous as to whether he's still "alive" after being gone for so long.  None of the operations in that chain say that anyone from the Inquisition actually encountered the Guardian.  Maybe he made it to the new location and then "died", or maybe he went off in search of his reinforcements or another suitable lyrium deposit.  



#160
Heimdall

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There's no reason that the Guardian being able to leave the temple should refute that he was being sustained by the lyrium, especially considering it's ambiguous as to whether he's still "alive" after being gone for so long.  None of the operations in that chain say that anyone from the Inquisition actually encountered the Guardian.  Maybe he made it to the new location and then "died", or maybe he went off in search of his reinforcements or another suitable lyrium deposit.  

I feel I should say that the text in the operations in questions indicates the guardian it talks about fled a very long time ago, following some attack at the site of the sacred ashes.  The papers he thought to preserve have crumbled, indicating it happened a very long time ago.  It sounds to me like this was a loyalist that fled or was driven off when Kolgrim's anscestor turned the rest toward dragon worship, not the Guardian we met in Origins.



#161
Phoe77

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I thought about that too and It definitely is reasonable, but I can also see how the Guardian that we met might have fled to another lost ruin with a handful of already degraded materials.  I don't know which scenario I personally find more likely, but there's enough plausibility (or rather, too little information) for me to see both as at least being possible.



#162
SnackPackWarrior

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No he is not.

Huh. Never came across the banter, I was pretty sure Asunder said he was, but I guess Inquisition is newer therefore likely to be more correct. The question is though, why does he look like, what we assume the actual Cole looks like, an emaciated young man?



#163
Dai Grepher

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But there's no evidence for that - it's the equivalent of assuming that all of the spirits are just one person who is really good at dressing up and is using a creative series of mirrors. 

 

There is evidence. The codex for Ash Wraiths and the Holy Brazier state that the ash wraiths in the temple are the spirits of people who committed to serving Andraste. But the spirits of the people in the gauntlet made no such commitment. So it is logical to conclude that these spirits are of the actual historical people (since they have intimate knowledge of them), but if you fail their question then they would not turn into ash wraiths, rather an ash wraith would be summoned by them to protect the Urn.

 

Well, if Oghren's hypotesis was a wrong one, the guardian could easily tear it apart with a simple no. His answer, 'we do not question the will of the Maker bla bla bla' doesn't sound like a 'nope, you're wrong' but more like a '****, he's on to us! Evasive Measures!'. Not to mention that his 'mind reading mojo' is exactly the one Cole seems to have,  So Fade spirit bound to the ashes, which are in turn juiced up by the lyrium present in Mythal's temple. Oh, I mean in Andraste's temple.

 

And maybe the guardian is only powered up by the lyrium in his body(Like Leli), or the lyrium in the ashes, or maybe he took the ashes and some lyrium when he left for greener pastures. 

 

Actually, no it wouldn't. The Guardian saying no would not disprove Oghren's hypothesis at all. But the Guardian's honest answer of not questioning how it's possible does not confirm Oghren's hypothesis either. And if the Guardian was trying to deceive Oghren, why didn't he tell him he was wrong?

 

His mind reading is not the same as Cole's. Otherwise he would have known about the dragon's blood. He explained his ability. He can read your past based on the marks they leave on your face and heart. Metaphorical I'm sure, but his reading seems to be focused on possible regrets or insecurities. Cole reads pain and intent.

 

Cole isn't possessing anyone, he copied the original Cole mind and body when he manifested outside the Fade, somewhat like a Shade.  Like how Envy copied the Lord Seeker.

 

It's revealed in his personal quest with the ex-templar that he is possessing the deceased Cole's body. He didn't remember that he was until seeing the ex-templar because "reasons". He's kind of like Rainer. As Cole died, Compassion became him so that he would live on.

 

I feel I should say that the text in the operations in questions indicates the guardian it talks about fled a very long time ago, following some attack at the site of the sacred ashes.  The papers he thought to preserve have crumbled, indicating it happened a very long time ago.  It sounds to me like this was a loyalist that fled or was driven off when Kolgrim's anscestor turned the rest toward dragon worship, not the Guardian we met in Origins.

 

Or maybe he fled with old and fragile documents that simply did not survive the trip. I suppose the text is too vague to confirm if that was THE Guardian or not, but Varric's narration in the Keep does confirm that the Guardian and Sacred Ashes have disappeared from that location.

 

Personally, I think it is the Guardian. No one guarding that temple would have fled an attack on it. They would have defended it to the death. And why would the person think there would be others following him there? I think the Guardian fled Corypheus, who may have arrived early to taint the lyrium in the mountain in preparation for the ritual. That's the only kind of attack I could see him running from. If the lyrium in the mountain was being corrupted red with the taint, the Guardian would sense it and move the Ashes so they would not risk corruption.



#164
Dai Grepher

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Huh. Never came across the banter, I was pretty sure Asunder said he was, but I guess Inquisition is newer therefore likely to be more correct. The question is though, why does he look like, what we assume the actual Cole looks like, an emaciated young man?

 

That banter is wrong. That is from before Cole remembered what he was. If I'm thinking of the same banter you are, with Dorian asking, "You're not possessing a human body Cole?" This is before Cole remembers what happened with the real Cole. In his personal quest he confirms that he could not save the real Cole from dying, so he possessed him after he died so he could live on as something else. That's also why this Cole is a rogue instead of a mage.



#165
Illyria

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That banter is wrong. That is from before Cole remembered what he was. If I'm thinking of the same banter you are, with Dorian asking, "You're not possessing a human body Cole?" This is before Cole remembers what happened with the real Cole. In his personal quest he confirms that he could not save the real Cole from dying, so he possessed him after he died so he could live on as something else. That's also why this Cole is a rogue instead of a mage.

 

You're completely wrong.  Cole copied the real Cole's body.  This was adressed in Asunder, party banter and, I believe, some tweets from the devs.



#166
Dai Grepher

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You're completely wrong.  Cole copied the real Cole's body.  This was adressed in Asunder, party banter and, I believe, some tweets from the devs.

 

Proof please.



#167
Illyria

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Proof please.

 

Well, there's the banter above.



#168
introverted_assassin

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I'm still wrapping my mind around this. I've only ever killed her ONCE to get that Reaver spec and quickly exploited the reload save option because of a pocket full of NOPES(haven't even bothered choosing it in the Keep...don't care who doesn't like her that's bae for me and I simply cannot...also can't stab Morri...but that is neither here nor there). I think my Coercion wasn't high enough in that playthrough to talk her down. This...is interesting.

#169
Rawgrim

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She's an over 10 year old spirit. Cole is just 2 0r 3 years old when you met him. Also, Cole in dai does not have a memory problem.

 

Well that was what I was saying....



#170
leaguer of one

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Huh. Never came across the banter, I was pretty sure Asunder said he was, but I guess Inquisition is newer therefore likely to be more correct. The question is though, why does he look like, what we assume the actual Cole looks like, an emaciated young man?

Asunder made it a point that he was. Cole said the real Cole was long dead and he just stay to eased him as he passed.



#171
leaguer of one

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Proof please.



#172
In Exile

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There is evidence. The codex for Ash Wraiths and the Holy Brazier state that the ash wraiths in the temple are the spirits of people who committed to serving Andraste. But the spirits of the people in the gauntlet made no such commitment. So it is logical to conclude that these spirits are of the actual historical people (since they have intimate knowledge of them), but if you fail their question then they would not turn into ash wraiths, rather an ash wraith would be summoned by them to protect the Urn.

That's not reliable evidence; while strictly speaking you're right that it meets the definition of the word "evidence", it's basically worthless. That's an unreliable in-setting codex, written from an in-setting perspective, and it's contrary to everything we know about how magic (and spirits) have been revealed to work over the 3 games. 

 

It's nonsensical to draw any conclusion from a Codex that not only actively contradicts everything we know about spirits and magic in the lore, but requires a thus far unproven (and partly discredited) religious narrative to be true and otherwise contradicts other historical facts (i.e., the personalities of the people we meet do not match up with all the first-hand sources re: their personality). 


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#173
Sealaria

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That freaked me out a bit seeing that ending for Leliana.  I have never killed her ..in fact I always make her my bff.  In my head after my char marries Alistair she is right there to go shoe shopping with me as a stress reliever from dealing with nobles in Denerim.   Notice that she will be back though when needed...hahaha!  Can't keep her down!



#174
Heimdall

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It's revealed in his personal quest with the ex-templar that he is possessing the deceased Cole's body. He didn't remember that he was until seeing the ex-templar because "reasons". He's kind of like Rainer. As Cole died, Compassion became him so that he would live on.

You misinterpret, this whole subject was covered in Asunder, Compassion became Cole but he didn't possess him.  It embodied Cole, identifying with him so thoroughly that for the almost the entirety of Asunder Cole didn't even know he was a spirit.  What he forgot before his personal quest was the details of what happened to the real Cole.

 

Solas notes this in Skyhold, that Cole isn't possessing anyone.


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#175
myahele

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I am guessing she represent's Faith? She seems to pretty much believe things will work out , hardened or no