231 réponses à ce sujet

[Gold Dragon]

I am guessing she represent's Faith? She seems to pretty much believe things will work out , hardened or no

 

So did Wynne, for that matter.

[Dai Grepher]

Well, there's the banter above.

 

That banter is from before Cole's personal quest. It is irrelevant.

[Dai Grepher]

 

Not proof. That was before Cole came to his realization in his personal quest.
 

[Dai Grepher]

That's not reliable evidence; while strictly speaking you're right that it meets the definition of the word "evidence", it's basically worthless. That's an unreliable in-setting codex, written from an in-setting perspective, and it's contrary to everything we know about how magic (and spirits) have been revealed to work over the 3 games. 

 

It's nonsensical to draw any conclusion from a Codex that not only actively contradicts everything we know about spirits and magic in the lore, but requires a thus far unproven (and partly discredited) religious narrative to be true and otherwise contradicts other historical facts (i.e., the personalities of the people we meet do not match up with all the first-hand sources re: their personality). 

 

No, it is evidence of that being a special case. Spirits and demons may work in some other way elsewhere, but in the temple, it is as the codices describe. Reject the evidence if you want, but I prefer to recognize game facts.

 

It doesn't contradict anything. It describes what the ash wraiths are in the temple. It does not state that ash wraiths in other parts of the world are anything else. You're just drawing false connections so you can dismiss evidence that disproves your theory.

 

How do they not match? You never saw those characters anywhere else in any of the game material.
 

[Dai Grepher]

You misinterpret, this whole subject was covered in Asunder, Compassion became Cole but he didn't possess him.  It embodied Cole, identifying with him so thoroughly that for the almost the entirety of Asunder Cole didn't even know he was a spirit.  What he forgot before his personal quest was the details of what happened to the real Cole.

 

Solas notes this in Skyhold, that Cole isn't possessing anyone.

 

Asunder was before Inquisition. It was Inquisition that revealed the truth, to us and to Cole. In Asunder it was all theory. In Inquisition we got the facts. Cole could not realize it until he confronted the ex-templar who hurt the real Cole.

 

Got a quote from Solas? Not that Solas is automatically right, but all I remember him saying is that Cole is a spirit and should remain one. I also remember Solas and Varric realizing what really happened with Cole when he started describing the events.

 

There is also conversation with Cole in the loft where he explains that he has a real body.

 

Also, he wouldn't be able to become more human unless he had physical form.
 

[Heimdall]

Asunder was before Inquisition. It was Inquisition that revealed the truth, to us and to Cole. In Asunder it was all theory. In Inquisition we got the facts. Cole could not realize it until he confronted the ex-templar who hurt the real Cole.

 

Got a quote from Solas? Not that Solas is automatically right, but all I remember him saying is that Cole is a spirit and should remain one. I also remember Solas and Varric realizing what really happened with Cole when he started describing the events.

 

There is also conversation with Cole in the loft where he explains that he has a real body.

 

Also, he wouldn't be able to become more human unless he had physical form.
 

Solas: Demons normally enter the world by possessing something.  In their true form, they look bizarre, monstrous.

Cassandra: But you claim Cole looks like a young man.  is it possession?

Solas:  No, he has possessed nothing and no one, and yet he appears human in all respects.  Cole is unique, Inquisitor.  More than that, he wishes to help.  I suggest you allow him to do so.

 

The explanation is thus: spirits have always had the ability to take physical form in our world.  We've seen this in all the demons we've fought. All of their bodies are real.  According to Cole, they look bizarre because they don't understand this world or its rules.  But Cole took physical form by directly mimicking a human so thoroughly he lost all memory of who he was.  Hence why he was able to take human form and acquire the real Cole's memories.  Mimicking the original Cole is how he is able to become more human.  For the above quote, see around the 34:00 mark.

 

[Illyria]

That banter is from before Cole's personal quest. It is irrelevant.

 

Except Cole knew what he was before Inquisiton started.  It was his realisation during Asunder that allowed him to be more powerful as a spirit (evidence: his introduction if In Hushed Whispers was completed).

 

If Cole was like Justice/Kristoff, Justice/Anders or Faith/Wynne then the issues he faces wouldn't exist.  It's his dual nature of being both Cole and not Cole that causes his problems.  His quest was about either accepting the human part (the part he based on the real Cole) or his spirit self.

 

But, ah, I forgot.  You are the expert in Dragon Age lore and I am but a humble neophyte.

[Erstus]

Uhh, I don't even....

Fortunately, I never kill her in my playthroughs. Well, since we are on this topic, let's get a spirit Duncan back amirite?

[Zana]

Well, we have quite a spectrum of spirit 'possessions' now:

Possession of a dead body with no personality of host retained (bodies in DA:O in mage tower and Redcliffe)

Willing possession of dying person to sustain them (Wynne)

Willing possession of a living person (Anders)

Unwilling (or partly willing) possession of a living mage (regular abominations)

 

We also have a number of spirits manifesting into Thedas without possession:

Copying a person (envy, Cole)

Manifesting directly while losing themselves due to shock (most other demons)

Possibly manifesting without losing themselves due to lack of Veil? (Solas pride/wisdom spirit theory)

 

So where do lyrium ghosts come in?  Lyrium allows easier movement across the veil so it opens several possibilities.  Are the 'ghosts' like Cole?  Is 'Leliana' a manifested spirit, or is she more like Wynne,except needing the presence of additional lyrium to recover from 'death'?  For that matter, can we extrapolate this to claiming that we ... 'resurrected' Eamon by spirit possession as well?  Ashes being conduit for linking with spirits of faith?  Oh so many fun speculations.

 

Either way I am glad they are closing some of the plot holes in their lore.

[Ariella]

If people can be created so convincingly..
 
 
What is Thedas?
 
 

The Matrix theory of reality.

[Dai Grepher]

Solas: Demons normally enter the world by possessing something.  In their true form, they look bizarre, monstrous.

Cassandra: But you claim Cole looks like a young man.  is it possession?

Solas:  No, he has possessed nothing and no one, and yet he appears human in all respects.  Cole is unique, Inquisitor.  More than that, he wishes to help.  I suggest you allow him to do so.

 

The explanation is thus: spirits have always had the ability to take physical form in our world.  We've seen this in all the demons we've fought. All of their bodies are real.  According to Cole, they look bizarre because they don't understand this world or its rules.  But Cole took physical form by directly mimicking a human so thoroughly he lost all memory of who he was.  Hence why he was able to take human form and acquire the real Cole's memories.  Mimicking the original Cole is how he is able to become more human.  For the above quote, see around the 34:00 mark.

 

 

Okay, and that quote from Solas came BEFORE Cole's personal quest. That was before he found out what really happened to Cole and Compassion.

 

I don't disagree with your explanation. In fact I was hoping this would be the case with Cole. Someone who was 100% spirit and no physical body (otherwise he's like Kristof/Justice). But his personal quest disproved that he was not possessing a human body. So while I would like to believe otherwise, I can't ignore the fact presented in the game.

[Dai Grepher]

Except Cole knew what he was before Inquisiton started.  It was his realisation during Asunder that allowed him to be more powerful as a spirit (evidence: his introduction if In Hushed Whispers was completed).

 

If Cole was like Justice/Kristoff, Justice/Anders or Faith/Wynne then the issues he faces wouldn't exist.  It's his dual nature of being both Cole and not Cole that causes his problems.  His quest was about either accepting the human part (the part he based on the real Cole) or his spirit self.

 

But, ah, I forgot.  You are the expert in Dragon Age lore and I am but a humble neophyte.

 

Yes, he realized he was a spirit, but he did not know he was possessing the real Cole's body.

 

I would prefer that Cole was 100% spirit. But I can't ignore the facts of the game. He was like Kristof/Justice, except Cole was able to possess the body immediately after death. Which is why his body doesn't decay like Kristof's.

 

Also, if you encourage him to become human he talks about having to eat. How is that if he doesn't have a body?
 

[Ranadiel Marius]

Okay, and that quote from Solas came BEFORE Cole's personal quest. That was before he found out what really happened to Cole and Compassion.

I don't disagree with your explanation. In fact I was hoping this would be the case with Cole. Someone who was 100% spirit and no physical body (otherwise he's like Kristof/Justice). But his personal quest disproved that he was not possessing a human body. So while I would like to believe otherwise, I can't ignore the fact presented in the game.

Solas's explation comes from having just looking at Cole. Solas knows more about the Fade than anyone else. If Cole was possessing Cole's body then the body would be decomposing and/or he would be a mage.

If you think everyone else is so wrong, then why not present the quotes from Cole's quest which show exactly where it states that Cole possessed Cole. Because without those you seem to be the one blatantly dismissing the facts presented in game without any evidence.

[Illyria]

Yes, he realized he was a spirit, but he did not know he was possessing the real Cole's body.

 

I would prefer that Cole was 100% spirit. But I can't ignore the facts of the game. He was like Kristof/Justice, except Cole was able to possess the body immediately after death. Which is why his body doesn't decay like Kristof's.

 

Also, if you encourage him to become human he talks about having to eat. How is that if he doesn't have a body?
 

 

Because he's also a spirit.  He's human and spirit at the same time.  His case is utterly unique.  And if Solas - an expert on spirits who also has knowledge of what they were pre-veil - says he's not possessing a body then I'm going with Solas on this.

 

And the mountain of in game evidence.

[Heimdall]

Yes, he realized he was a spirit, but he did not know he was possessing the real Cole's body.

 

I would prefer that Cole was 100% spirit. But I can't ignore the facts of the game. He was like Kristof/Justice, except Cole was able to possess the body immediately after death. Which is why his body doesn't decay like Kristof's.

 

Also, if you encourage him to become human he talks about having to eat. How is that if he doesn't have a body?
 

What has you so convinced that Cole is possessing the body of the real Cole?  I'd think Solas, the expert that he is, would be able to tell the difference between a spirit body and a possession.  He wouldn't have gone on that spiel about Cole being unique otherwise.

 

But you should consider, why didn't Cole need to eat before?  If he was possessing a body, it would still require substinence. no?  I think you underestimate what Cole taking the human path means.  It means he isn't just emulating a human form anymore, he's come to embody a living human boy in all its facets, body and mind.  That's why he didn't need to eat before.  his body was still mostly spirit.

[Iakus]

Spirits/demons can sometimes manifest a body without possessing another:

 

It has often been suggested that the only way for a demon to affect the world of the living is by possessing a living (or once living) body, but this is not always true. Indeed, a shade is one such creature: a demon in its true form that has adapted to affect the world around it.

 

​From the codex entry on shades.  Emphasis mine

[Heimdall]

Okay, and that quote from Solas came BEFORE Cole's personal quest. That was before he found out what really happened to Cole and Compassion.
 
I don't disagree with your explanation. In fact I was hoping this would be the case with Cole. Someone who was 100% spirit and no physical body (otherwise he's like Kristof/Justice). But his personal quest disproved that he was not possessing a human body. So while I would like to believe otherwise, I can't ignore the fact presented in the game.

At no point in Cole's personal quest does it indicate he possessed the original Cole. It indicates what is indicated in Asunder, that Cole is a spirit that identified with a human instead of an emotion.

[Amne YA]

and that's why sir you don't let liliana die . you don't want some creepy **** on your game 

[leaguer of one]

Not proof. That was before Cole came to his realization in his personal quest.
 

Your delusional. This is fact. this does not change after the quest. if fact, Cole can become more of a spirit after the quest. It's not a possession. Even Solas tells you this.

[leaguer of one]

Okay, and that quote from Solas came BEFORE Cole's personal quest. That was before he found out what really happened to Cole and Compassion.

 

I don't disagree with your explanation. In fact I was hoping this would be the case with Cole. Someone who was 100% spirit and no physical body (otherwise he's like Kristof/Justice). But his personal quest disproved that he was not possessing a human body. So while I would like to believe otherwise, I can't ignore the fact presented in the game.

Dude, how can you not understand that it make no difference.  None. In fact after the quest we given more fact that he is a spirit.

 

Solas is not going to mistake Cole for some thing else.

 

[SnackPackWarrior]

Regardless of whether or not Cole possessed a body, how would Varric's solution in Cole's personal quest have any effect on him whatsoever? This **** bugs me to no end. Like Solas said that you cannot change into something else just by willing it. To me, it would only make sense if Cole wasn't truly a 100% Fade produced spirit- otherwise we'd have other spirit-people roaming around Thedas.

[Illyria]

Regardless of whether or not Cole possessed a body, how would Varric's solution in Cole's personal quest have any effect on him whatsoever? This **** bugs me to no end. Like Solas said that you cannot change into something else just by willing it. To me, it would only make sense if Cole wasn't truly a 100% Fade produced spirit- otherwise we'd have other spirit-people roaming around Thedas.

 

For the longest time Cole believed he was human (well, a human ghost) and only recently became aware of the fact that he's a spirit.  His body is human, but it's also spirit.  Cole is always Cole regardless of what outcome you pick.  Picture Cole as a dial with three settings.  Spirit and Human are at either end, pre-quest Cole is in the centre.  His quest is about moving that dial towards one or the other.  Being in the centre means he has more or less equal access to both the human and spirit parts of himself.  Accepting being either spirit or human means you make that part of him more dominant, and cut him off from the other part of himself.  For example, human!Cole in Trespasser can no longer make people forget him at all - he lost that ability by accepting his human self over his spirit self.
 

[leaguer of one]

Regardless of whether or not Cole possessed a body, how would Varric's solution in Cole's personal quest have any effect on him whatsoever? This **** bugs me to no end. Like Solas said that you cannot change into something else just by willing it. To me, it would only make sense if Cole wasn't truly a 100% Fade produced spirit- otherwise we'd have other spirit-people roaming around Thedas.

Ironically you can....

 

1:38:17

[LaughingBanana]

You guys surely love to discuss and extrapolate stuff from something that Bioware cooked up for AT THE VERY BEST 10 minutes or so.

 

"Uh, we promised an explanation about how Leliana's still alive if HoF killed her on Origins."

"........"

".....she's a ghost?"

"PERFECT"

 

*Cue BSN members discussing the philosophical quandaries of Leliana being a ghost*

 

I mean, they didn't even bother to explain how it was possible that HoF can also appear in Awakening if he/she performed the final sacrifice in Origins, as well as Ohgren if you killed him in Origins. IIRC Anders too.

 

Face it, they just cooked up this kind of silly explanation nilly willy because it's a popular request. This silly explanation created such a massive hole you can fit a Titan in it and still has room for the entire Orzammar to spare.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

I think people need to remember that if you kill her, you KILLED her. Show me any revival that was not done without spirits, blight or very strong magic (that is not gameplay)

 

This is the only plausible way to explain her revival.

Oghren