30 réponses à ce sujet

[masster blaster]

Though it has been 2 and a half years since ME3's last dlc came out I thought this theory still holds up. By all rights this still can be talked about for new players come and still wonder what happened at the end. Though there are many interpretations upon the ending itself the Indoctrination Theory is a heavily implied theory that Shepard is being Indoctrinated at the end of the game.

 

 

It's not hard to believe at this point that Shepard is being so.: Shepard is a symbolic of change in the galaxy. Good or bad depending on the way you play as your Shepard. The Reapers consider Shepard as threat and have tried their best to stop Shepard in the past yet they have failed, even when they killed Shepard. Thus at the beginning of the game the child would come into play. If you have played arrival before playing ME3 you already know Shepard was captured by Harbinger via Kenson capturing your Shepard. for days Shepard was near the Reaper artifact and for the first time Harbinger had access to Shepard without anything from protecting Shepard.

 

Though many can argue because this is OUR Shepard and he/she can't sub-come to indoctrination, yet we forget that Shepard is still human by right and is still bound to the laws of ME. Though Indoctrination can happen slowly or rapidly, Shepard case slowly builds over time while isolated for months due to the events of ME2 Arrival if played. Thus we get back to the child.

 

The child is the representation of Shepard's will:. If we think about it, it makes sense. The child is only seen by Shepard and not once did Anderson ever bother to wonder why Shepard stopped. We also have to consider the child vanishes after we hear a Reaper growl which feels ominous. Granted there are Reapers just outside, but the growl is rarely heard. The Horn/slandered Reaper noise however isn't which is the majority we hear throughout ME3.

 

After events pass Shepard has three main nightmares about the boy and each nightmare gets worse to the point it gets very close to the Indoctrination codex basic symptoms of Indoctrination. Though others claim it is PTSD we know that PTSD would happen if something triggered Shepard to feel that way. This can be dis proven since at the end of the game Shepard is not reacting to the catalyst being the boy, rather than Shepard is calm and accepting the catalyst being the boy.

 

Moreover when Harbinger comes in blasting everything we KNOW that Harbinger has good aim.: It was killing anyone coming down the hill. To just not kill Shepard or Shepard somehow surviving makes no sense, even if you have "plot armor" it doesn't fit. Plus when Anderson says he followed you up something isn't right. Anderson's comm works. Why didn't Anderson call for backup, why didn't Shepard for the most part call the Major to not full back?

 

All of this leads to speculations upon this is all in Shepard's mind. We know that the ME end game is heavily been reused models for certain key parts in the Citadel and the ME1 Conduit run. This all fits in with Leviathan dlc. Leviathan was able to get into Shepard's mind and create a world within it. even was able to take an OBJECT and the APPEARANCES of a person Shepard knew. Leviathan tells us the Reapers perfected their enthrallment which gave birth to indoctrination. Therefore we can make an educated guess that the Reapers did construct a world within Shepard's mind in-order to finally bring Shepard to their side.

 

Now for the catalyst. Though leviathan said Harbinger is the first reaper to be born, it didn't rule out that the catalyst did combine itself with Harbinger. It's a possibility yet if Harbinger has been the leading "force" for the Reapers and is at the end of the game. It would make sense that the Boss from ME2 would be capable of doing this to Shepard since Harbinger tried it in Arrival, and has wanted Shepard dead or alive. And the kicker is also that since Harbinger is the only reaper there and we know that this child has been haunting Shepard since the beginning. Who better to use the child since this child is considered "PURE" and stands for all the deaths that have happened and a voice that can reach-out to Shepard.

Granted that is a big assumption the meat of this is the endings themselves and what they stand for.

 

Destroy: Represents everything Shepard has been fighting for. All of this has been to stop the Reapers at all cost no matter what. Everyone signed up for this operation to see this threw. It is ironic that synthetics have to die in-order to save Organics when we have the option of making peace, yet that is WHAT the catalyst wants. "Harbinger" wants you to be moved by this and not do it. Gives you a logical assumption that all of this shall happen again, that being synthetics vs organics is going to be the result. Even says "Partly synthetic to Shepard" thus hinting that Shepard will most likely die as well which is isn't the case in the LAST ending you can unlock. "Breath scene". This makes sense seeing how by staying true to ones goals, and managed to retain ones will, Shepard is able to break free of the Indoctrination attempt and wake up.

 

Now how this is the case is quite simple. the more assets you gain the more likely Shepard has to live since the more assets the better the chances Shepard has in waking up on Earth. I say Earth since the breath scene can be taken either way as either on the Citadel or on Earth. Now for the Earth idea it has to do with Harbinger not killing your Shepard BUT pushing Shepard back with the force explosion of the beam. Thus we start the hallucination in Shepard's mind and the Indoctrination test begins.

 

As the more assets you have they are able to manage to retrieve Shepard, It would make sense. You would need something of great power to distract harbinger while someone retrieves Shepard.

 

 

As for Synthesis and Control: They are what the Reapers want. TIM wanted to control the Reapers but was already being controlled by them. To listen to a person who was an agent of the Reapers, and having the catalyst just simply give up his power is very uneasy. In synthesis the catalyst wants this option to become, and even tells us automatically that peace shall happen. The problem is. HOW does it now these outcomes fully? In Destroy it tells us that Organics and synthetics will be at war again, but it already knows synthesis will bring peace, and control will have Shepard lead the Reapers. The HUGE problem is the galaxy would NOT welcome the Reapers. There would be death and destruction, All those children that have lost their parents would want revenge and those that KNOW about the reapers would seek vengeance upon them.

 

 

Now time for the EC slides. We know that in Destroy the soldiers have the WILL to fight and stand their ground in the other endings they do not and are overwhelmed. This shows us that in a symbolic way that you either have won the fight or have lost the fight. Think about it, the soldiers represent Shepard will. if the soldiers fall, and one of them hides in fear, it means Shepard has given up. Yet when they stand their ground it shows us that they stood up to the bitter end. The Reapers dying in Destroy represent indoctrination failing. In synthesis and control it represents the Reapers having accesses to Shepard.

 

As we go from there we are shown promises of the future and HOPE if we have high EMS for all endings. While this is a interesting way to send off ME3, the problem here is the way it is done. Hackett talks in a more victorious way and there is hope. Edi sounds as if she isn't her and nor does there ever to be seem a WAR happened. In Control Shepard sounds not him/her. the "AI" copy sounds easily too much like the Catalyst in either end. Ones wants peace, while the other wants force.

 

And finally the memorial. There is no way they know Anderson is dead. Shepard never told them and nobody could see Anderson die other than Shepard. For the Destroy ending in high EMS ( the best ending in terms of unlocking) they don't put Shepard's name up. A good reason could be is because Shepard knows he/she is not dead and thus is able to wake up. Though granted there is peace, something is telling Shepard that there is a future for him/her. In low and mid ems Destroy Shepard won't wake up since he/she thinks he/she has failed the galaxy and in high ems destroy without the breath ending, Shepard is starting to feel at peace and is possibly about to wake up YET since there isn't enough ems assets Shepard is killed.

 

 

Overall the Indoctrination Theory is a huge one to take in since this contradicts so much of ME3, yet makes sense. Though others will/have argued about it the thing about IT is it is a theory and have evidence to back up just hasn't been confirmed and it may never will. however it doesn't stop people from talking bout it since it makes sense of ME3.

[Excella Gionne]

This doesn't even explain how Leviathan can or cannot sense indoctrination within Shepard. They too can indoctrinate, and because they are the creators, they should be able to sense the slightest indoctrination within Shepard since it did explore Shepard's mind. If you're going to mention Leviathan, please talk more about it than mentioning it once. 

 

Questions:

 

Why are the Reapers wasting so much time on trying to indoctrinate Shepard when their main goal is to harvest the current advanced organics and synthetics out?

 

How is Shepard going to save the galaxy while being knocked out cold on Earth? Is Shepard on Earth or on the Citadel, which is it?

 

If Shepard wakes up and defeats indoctrination, what does Shepard do after that? How is Shepard going to save the galaxy? Are the Reapers really going to destroy themselves if Shepard picked Destroy and Shepard woke up from his/her unconscious state?

 

What if Shepard did not rescue Doctor Kenson? Does this contradict IT completely, and avoids the possibility of ever being indoctrinated? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edi sounds as if she isn't her and nor does there ever to be seem a WAR happened. In Control Shepard sounds not him/her. the "AI" copy sounds easily too much like the Catalyst in either end. Ones wants peace, while the other wants force.

 

 

Unless you missed the parts where EDI says the Reapers are helping with rebuilding despite that they once threatened them with extinction, you really need to watch Synthesis again. If you're trying to say she sounds like an organic, was that not purpose of Synthesis? To give the synthetics knowledge and understanding of organics. and allow organics to fully integrate with synthetic technology?

 

Catalyst Shepard remains as Shepard him/herself. Depending on Shepard being either a heroic or ruthless person, will determine the personality that Catalyst Shepard will have. Regardless of morality alignment, both want the same thing and express to achieve the same thing. Renegade Catalyst Shepard puts more emphasis on being a protector and crushing threats that will threaten the future of the galaxy. Catalyst Shepard is entirely different from the Catalyst in every way. 

 

 

 

 

And finally the memorial. There is no way they know Anderson is dead. Shepard never told them and nobody could see Anderson die other than Shepard. 

 

 

Well, if they can't find Anderson's body nor can they locate him, he's pretty much presumed dead or MIA. After the Reaper war, most likely, he's dead and isn't MIA. Who knows? Maybe they though he was incinerated by Harby's beams, but they don't know the truth.

 

___________________

 

Your theory collapses entirely as you moved onto the Extended Cut DLC. My impression of that part of the post was that you were unsure of your approach on trying to contradict a DLC that contradicts the theory you are trying to prove. 

[GalacticWolf5]

It's funny how people who think IT is real make big texts to explain it but leave out the stuff that proves it wrong.

[masster blaster]

This doesn't even explain how Leviathan can or cannot sense indoctrination within Shepard. They too can indoctrinate, and because they are the creators, they should be able to sense the slightest indoctrination within Shepard since it did explore Shepard's mind. If you're going to mention Leviathan, please talk more about it than mentioning it once. 

 

Questions:

 

Why are the Reapers wasting so much time on trying to indoctrinate Shepard when their main goal is to harvest the current advanced organics and synthetics out?

 

How is Shepard going to save the galaxy while being knocked out cold on Earth? Is Shepard on Earth or on the Citadel, which is it?

 

If Shepard wakes up and defeats indoctrination, what does Shepard do after that? How is Shepard going to save the galaxy? Are the Reapers really going to destroy themselves if Shepard picked Destroy and Shepard woke up from his/her unconscious state?

 

What if Shepard did not rescue Doctor Kenson? Does this contradict IT completely, and avoids the possibility of ever being indoctrinated? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unless you missed the parts where EDI says the Reapers are helping with rebuilding despite that they once threatened them with extinction, you really need to watch Synthesis again. If you're trying to say she sounds like an organic, was that not purpose of Synthesis? To give the synthetics knowledge and understanding of organics. and allow organics to fully integrate with synthetic technology?

 

Catalyst Shepard remains as Shepard him/herself. Depending on Shepard being either a heroic or ruthless person, will determine the personality that Catalyst Shepard will have. Regardless of morality alignment, both want the same thing and express to achieve the same thing. Renegade Catalyst Shepard puts more emphasis on being a protector and crushing threats that will threaten the future of the galaxy. Catalyst Shepard is entirely different from the Catalyst in every way. 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, if they can't find Anderson's body nor can they locate him, he's pretty much presumed dead or MIA. After the Reaper war, most likely, he's dead and isn't MIA. Who knows? Maybe they though he was incinerated by Harby's beams, but they don't know the truth.

 

___________________

 

Your theory collapses entirely as you moved onto the Extended Cut DLC. My impression of that part of the post was that you were unsure of your approach on trying to contradict a DLC that contradicts the theory you are trying to prove. 

 

 

Response: 1. Shepard is something of a beacon for this cycle. To have Shepard on their side is a big win for them, and moral would be at a low on the other side. Shepard has the ability to unite the galaxy against the Reapers which makes him/her a stop priority to have one under. If Shepard does die then Shepard dies, the bonus of it all is to have the enemy becomes yours. Sure it is easy to kill Shepard, but Shepard's death would only mature him/her. Thus it would give the galaxy the extra resolve to carry on.

 

2. Well that would be on Earth. Harbinger blasting Shepard back into a pile of rubble would make ideal sense. If Indoctrination is what is happening at the end, then it would make sense to begin it with Shepard bleeding out slowly, and his/her mind more accessible with nobody in the way. After waking up in Destroy ending with the highest ems ending to it, Shepard shall wake up.

 

3.Now while Shepard was sleeping/being indoctrinated to the fullest the allies of his were trying to recover Shepard. Now for the crucible nobody knows what it is going to do, not even the Leviathans. Yet the catalyst does. Yet if this IS a big lie and this is Harbinger in a sense indoctrinating Shepard. Then it is more believable that the crucible could still be a massive construct of energy that would disable the Reapers shields, or possible a mass rail gun. Unknown about that, yet how Shepard will save the galaxy would be dependent upon if Harbinger is killed, the crucible does make contact with the Citadel and with the targeting system that can be added that shows every Reaper in the galaxy. multiple shots may be fired.

 

It's possible that Shepard will be picked up by his/her squad and given a chance to recover then decided on what the next course of action shall be. I can't really GIVE the most likely outcomes since this is all about Shepard waking up and the possibility of what might happen while Shepard was knocked out, and how the crucible is still a mystery to some sorts but still leads to the possibility of anything might happen.

 

 

3.2No they won't. If this is very much all a lie at the end of ME3, and Shepard is being Indoctrinated, then the choices in killing the Reapers or anything won't be of any concern since it was more symbolic in Shepard. Pick Destroy your Shepard's will was unbroken, yet pick refuse you give up and thus all falls into ruin. pick synthesis and control and you become an agent for the Reapers and now will be sent to hunt down your former squad-mates in a similar manner i would assume

 

 

4. Not necessarily. given how Shepard has been inside a Reaper before, has been around Reaper artifacts that haven't been shielded, Virmire was heavily indoctrinated taint grounds and given the invasion it can take a toll of Shepard. And there are ways to enforce indoctrination onto someone, yet that risk the mind of the person being overloaded. Honestly Arrival makes more sense on how this is possible, but given how the encounters of Reaper artifacts, virmire, and even the collector base. It is possible that Shepard didn't realize this with given the stakes.

 

Kinda like how the more you have on your mind and those around you the less you are aware. Indoctrination can takes for however long the person puts up a fight and isn't much aware of in a lone state. This is why around ME3 opening Shepard has been isolated from his crew and with the Reapers on Shepard's mind this gives room for the Reapers to slowly but patiently indoctrinate Shepard since Shepard is a option to convert to their-side .

 

 

Synthesis response :I am full aware of synthesis and what EDI says BUT the manner of people just forgiving the Reapers and accepting all of it is bs. Nobody in their right mind would agree to this nor would they thank Shepard. You rewrote everyone's genetic code and in a sense "killed them" much like how you rewrite the Geth heretics. They have their bodies but the personalities they were are dead.

 

 Problem also with this though is we had the OPTION of just making peace with the Geth. Edi even tells us she finds the Reapers repulsive and would rather risk non functionality mind you. So what EDI synthesis say out ways what EDi before hands says. If we disproved the catalyst own logic of doing this harvesting to preserve organics just because synthetics and organics will always be at war. This is like saying organics will always be at war with organics and synthetics with synthetics. There is no final solution that shall prevent no conflict. It's a lie to trick Shepard into agree with them. Conflict will always happen yet it shall be up to the future generations to hold onto the peace. Not by having everyone be rewritten all to please a AI who's own logic conflicts with it's own.

 

Control Response: Here is a flaw though. You are granted the golden ticket into the chocolate factory in a sense. You have all the wonderful ideas of what you want to do with this factory, yet as you try to make new policies and for a time they may work, yet somehow you will need the advice and also need to have the same policies as before to provide a sense of order in your own mindset.

 

Shepard having the ability to control the Reapers isn't ideal then. Your Shepard has the option of DOING what the catalyst originally did. All this talk about protecting and doing what must be done sounds a LOT like the catalyst doesn't it? It was doing this to protect organics, to stop the war. Shepard now is doing the same is he/she not?  Though this can't be proven to full depth, but since it didn't say much other than Shepard will be able to control the Reapers, nor does it say the catalyst will step down and not have any power?  Thus Shepard may lead the Reapers in the virtual mind, but who's to say the catalyst doesn't have control of Shepard?

 

Thus all of this points back into Indoctrination. The very essence of the Reapers power,Most importantly from harbinger, the first Leviathan Reaper. in which millions of Leviathan minds working as one to create a world for Shepard to be fooled into making it very real yet ominous to the point we as the play can see something is not right.

 

"Well, if they can't find Anderson's body nor can they locate him, he's pretty much presumed dead or MIA. After the Reaper war, most likely, he's dead and isn't MIA. Who knows? Maybe they though he was incinerated by Harby's beams, but they don't know the truth."

 

That's rather false in a way. Coats was the one calling the retreat BUT Anderson follows Shepard up, and in the EC now we are shown Hackett getting a report of Shepard . WHO reported Shepard going up into the beam and NOT confirming Anderson? It makes no sense seeing how Anderson followed after just a few seconds after. Therefore Anderson shouldn't be placed on the memorial wall since nobody knows Anderson died BUT Shepard.  And for MIA that doesn't go onto a wall but knowing the FACT that person died. You can say too they had a feeling yet the strange part is though when that feelings happens  for the Shepard scene, when they can't put it up on the wall.  We then soon get a breath scene of Shepard somehow surviving a blast that is MEANT to kill Shepard starts to make you think something wasn't right. The catalyst doesn't just state about Shepard being part synthetic without a reason. If Shepard dies even when you unlock the high ems destroy but yet somehow in the breath scene survived. Sure organic part YET Shepard shouldn't die then in high ems destroy without he breath scene then.

 

Your theory collapses entirely as you moved onto the Extended Cut DLC. My impression of that part of the post was that you were unsure of your approach on trying to contradict a DLC that contradicts the theory you are trying to prove.

 

Not really no. In fact it made more sense of the theory. Particularly when you get to leviathan. all of what could be happening in that conversation with Leviathan times that by Harbinger which has probably hundreds of thousands of leviathans inside, Therefore having the possibility of Harbinger creating a realistic world with people Shepard has seen, things Shepard has seen, and even add extra if need be.

 

I decided to play safe in my choice of words since the past some of us that speculated about IT kinda declared it was true in depth.( me being guilty in that) I am trying to say this could have been with evidence and speculations we had created and found over the years. Thus this theory still has merit even with the new ME game coming out. I kinda find it in a way like Halo 3 way with leaving Shepard in the rubble for now but yet not write Shepard off yet if they EVER did wanted to go back to it. Wishful thinking yes but considering how if this is ideal then Shepard being Indoctrinated at the end of the game does hold up.

[masster blaster]

Under indoctrination, Reapers have corrupted Shepard's limbic system. A 30 second Google search and 1 minute of watching a video revealed to me that PTSD is controlled through the limbic system. Therefore, those parts of the game where Shepard has PTSD are being influenced by the Reapers, not his stress due to the war itself.

 

People call the Catalyst's logic a plot hole. I call it a lie.

 

People might call Anderson suddenly being the bad guy, Shepard spitting on his friends he helped achieve peace, and the Illusive Man being the good guy and was somehow right the whole time a plot hole, but I call it a lie.

Huh didn't know that. It still does then support the idea the Reapers are slowly indoctrinating Shepard.

 

Oh very much so. Everything the catalyst says contradicts what it intends to do. Synthetics used to kill organics, the A.I harvesting organics to save the organics from synthetics yet it is a synthetic itself thus its logic is outright bs from the start. Then tries to justify it by saying organics and synthetics will always be at war when the catalyst never gave the galaxy a chance for organics and synthetics to find a solution themselves without being forced upon a path of war that the Reaprs kept going.

 

Only now do the geth and the quarians/ the organics of the galaxy have found peace. The catalyst has no more purpose, but i honestly believe it was outright scared to not have a purpose. If it did solve it the Leviathans would have probably turned on it. Thus it made the first move. It still doesn't justify the acts it did, yet it would make sense. Thus i believe it fused with Harbinger to have a body of power. It makes sense since Harbinger has the original birth of Indoctrination and it makes Harbinger a real reason why we didn't see him since it was preparing for this moment of a last ditch attempt.

 

I don't see Anderson as bad but all good. TIM is lost, he is their puppet. It makes no sense to trust in any word he says until he breaks free for a moment in the Paragon option. Anderson is the Father figure of Shepard and he has always stuck by us, taken the hit for Shepard, and he was right that the Reapers need to be defeated. Plus it isn't right to keep the reapers around nor the Reapers troops....they are dead only being used as weapons of war. So to have the options to control or synthesis the dead is unholy and shouldn't be done.

 

Though granted i believe all of this is an Indoctrination attempt/a lie to fool the players that the Reapers were right all along and you either gave your Shepard over to them, or you stuck with Destroying them and won the inner battle between Indoctrination. kinda makes the boss battle a mind game. Since if we use fly cam to zoom out and look above the Chamber it looks like a big choice menu option to choose from.

[GalacticWolf5]

Shepard having the ability to control the Reapers isn't ideal then. Your Shepard has the option of DOING what the catalyst originally did. All this talk about protecting and doing what must be done sounds a LOT like the catalyst doesn't it? It was doing this to protect organics, to stop the war. Shepard now is doing the same is he/she not?  Though this can't be proven to full depth, but since it didn't say much other than Shepard will be able to control the Reapers, nor does it say the catalyst will step down and not have any power?  Thus Shepard may lead the Reapers in the virtual mind, but who's to say the catalyst doesn't have control of Shepard?

 

1) Wrong, the Intelligence isn't there to protect Organics, it wants to find a way to preserve all life (Organic AND Synthetic), make lasting peace between both (Synthesis, which is it's ultimate goal, achieves this).

 

2) Actually, the Intelligence says that it doesn't want to be replaced by Shepard but that it would be forced to. The Intelligence is removed when Control is chosen by Shepard. Shepard has full control of the Reapers and can do whatever he wants with them.

-----

 

To be honest, I think that what makes you believe in IT is your misunderstanding of the Intelligence and it's purpose.

[masster blaster]

It's funny how people who think IT is real make big texts to explain it but leave out the stuff that proves it wrong.

Tell me then what proves it wrong? Tell me if i make big walls of texts that go over and over about things that make sense of IT and justify it that would be considered 'disproving IT" with evidence that is found within the meaning, or through another part of the game/dlc? Honestly if you are going say this then prove your words or continue to post "disproven this or ME4 game does, or EC." Already gave you my statement on the matter. Through my first post and the post after that asked questions. What is yours?

[masster blaster]

1) Wrong, the Intelligence isn't there to protect Organics, it wants to find a way to preserve all life (Organic AND Synthetic), make lasting peace between both (Synthesis, which is it's ultimate goal, achieves this).

 

2) Actually, the Intelligence says that it doesn't want to be replaced by Shepard but that it would be forced to. The Intelligence is removed when Control is chosen by Shepard. Shepard has full control of the Reapers and can do whatever he wants with them.

-----

 

To be honest, I think that what makes you believe in IT is your misunderstanding of the Intelligence and it's purpose.

1. And yet it was protecting Organics from synthetics but using synthetics to kill Organics? Funny seeing how it is also a synthetic and is trying to find a peaceful way only to kill both sides and use them to divide both sides in-order to complete a harvest?

 

2. The problem there is does it allow you to think it does? Clearly we are talking to a being that had control over TIM who wanted to control the Reapers, and it is okay for Shepard too since Shepard has proven to be worthy? And clearly when ones has the ability to do whatever it wants and can repeat what the catalyst did doesn't solve anything. Mind you that is an assumption but seeing how Shepard uses the Reapers and the organics that were turned into  Reaper troops i am sure the galaxy would be fine with that.

 

No. The Catalyst tries to reason it's own reasons purely for a way to gain your trust to at least see what it is trying to do. Look at all the chaos the Reapers have brought, how it uses synthetics in a war against organics in which the A.I who is a synthetics was trying to protect the organics from the synthetics. Not so much synthetics from organics but it uses that "fear" to use synthetics to kill Organics. Then it brings about a harvest that is meant to preserve the organics of the cycles BUT Harbinger states in ME2 that for certain races they are not ABLE to become a Reaper and Sov's kinda didn't listen to the catalyst own interest of no wars between organics and synthetics since peace was the prime goal.

 

Long has it brought only pain and death throughout the cycles. If you are saying that it's reasons are justifiable based upon what it thought was right YET was going against it's prime goal, even has brought DEATH to the Reapers of the organics it is trying to preserve....then this isn't ideal to agree with or even considered is right.

[GalacticWolf5]

Tell me then what proves it wrong?

 

- The Leviathans would've detected if Shepard was indoctrinated.

 

- Vendetta would've detected if Shepard was indoctrinated. It would have detected it during Priority: Thessia and also during Priority: Cerberus HQ (which takes place a couple hours before Priority: Earth).

 

- The epilogue slides. (Why would the Intelligence show Shepard a world in which he is dead? He's dead (depending of the ending and EMS of course))

 

- Confirmation that Shepard is on the Citadel in the breath scene in Destroy proves that what happened in the decision chamber did happen.

 

- When explaining the Control ending, the Intelligence says that you can't control the Reapers if they already control you. TIM couldn't because they controlled him, Shepard could because they don't control him.

 

And yet it was protecting Organics from synthetics but using synthetics to kill Organics?

 

This right there proves that you don't understand the Intelligence, it's purpose and the Reapers.

[ExoGeniVI]

And here I thought this was a new theory...

[masster blaster]

- The Leviathans would've detected if Shepard was indoctrinated.

 

- Vendetta would've detected if Shepard was indoctrinated. It would have detected it during Priority: Thessia and also during Priority: Cerberus HQ (which takes place a couple hours before Priority: Earth).

 

- The epilogue slides. (Why would the Intelligence show Shepard a world in which he is dead? He's dead (depending of the ending and EMS of course))

 

- Confirmation that Shepard is on the Citadel in the breath scene in Destroy proves that what happened in the decision chamber did happen.

 

- When explaining the Control ending, the Intelligence says that you can't control the Reapers if they already control you. TIM couldn't because they controlled him, Shepard could because they don't control him.

 

 

This right there proves that you don't understand the Intelligence and it's purpose.

Lets see. Seeing how VI's can't detect people that haven't GONE under the Indoctrination process and fully converted yeah... no wonder why the Prothean empire had loads of them, even Rana the Asari from ME1-ME2 didn't show signs of Indoctrination....Oh wait what happened? Killed high ranking officials. Nice Sleeper agent. Not to mention seeing how the Reaper perfected Indoctrination and is a slow process i DOUBT the Leviathans  have the ability to detect indoctrination seeing how VI's are the ones that mainly are able to do so?  This is also like saying on Why it didn't call out upon nightmares of the boy haunting Shepard? because it can't detect that probably.

 

Vendetta would've detected if Shepard was indoctrinated. It would have detected it during Priority: Thessia and also during Priority: Cerberus HQ (which takes place a couple hours before Priority: Earth).

 

 

You do realize that isn't how Indoctrination works right? Shepard is going threw slow Indoctrination. It takes time for it to happen. And Vendetta only detected those that have Already been fully Indoctrinated. If this was the case then the Protehan empire wouldn't have fallen but it did due to also INDOCTRINATED AGENTS that even the VI's or AI's couldn't detect.

 

- The epilogue slides. (Why would the Intelligence show Shepard a world in which he is dead? He's dead (depending of the ending and EMS of course))

 

Common tactic is to provide your enemy false hope and promises. Kenson mentioned about a world the Reapers showed her. In what Harbinger showed her. Seeing how the EC slides can be a "world the Reapers can show you" that is still valid in itself. It is the Reapers final laugh and the possibility of Shepard failing or winning in the slide shows is bitter sweet for the hero.

 

When explaining the Control ending, the Intelligence says that you can't control the Reapers if they already control you. TIM couldn't because they controlled him, Shepard could because they don't control him.

 

And hence you are the one being the one that puts your finger in the socket and basically because you are able to do it? Seeing how it is OKAY to do it since it isn't like you can be getting played at right? Kinda wrong here since you  are. Yet you WILLINGLY give Shepard over though. Symbolic wise whenever Shepard throws the gun down or lowers it Shepard gives himself/herself over yet in Destroy there is willpower and defines. 

 

CLEARLY by understanding what the Reapers are, by knowing the intelligence/catalyst is a load of bs. It's main goal is to stop both conflicts BUT the method it is using is pure madness and it is trying to justify something that Can't be. it betrayed it's creators out of "I MUST DO THIS for your OWN good" That in no way gives it the right to be right or for one to see eye to eye with it. I see it CLEAR as day but you are seeing it as "No no it isn't using organics and synthetics to kill one another just trying to preserve it" YES i KNOW but it is going against it's own reasons to why. It is creating this conflict to last . The Geth and the quarians are proof peace can happen But it isn't easy. Therefore it's own reason for continuing this war is because it is being a smart Alick and justifying 'PEACE WONT LAST" what gives it the right to SAY peace will happen in synthesis. IT SHOULDN'T"t know this and that is why it is hard to believe anything it says with merit.

[masster blaster]

And here I thought this was a new theory...

Sorry to disappoint you. If you like you are free to create your own. Just thought this one deserved more props since this is one that really challenges  your mind and acting something that has to be looked out from a philosophical way and also what is meant in the context of the games and even from the books/comics.

[GalacticWolf5]

Anderson suddenly being painted as renegade (red, destroy), while Illusive Man is being painted as paragon (blue, control) doesn't fit unless the Reapers are lying to you. Which seems to be the case.

 

Because something is red in the ME Universe it's automatically Renegade? And blue is automatically Paragon? The colors of the endings have nothing to do with Paragon/Renegade.

[GalacticWolf5]

Masster Blaster, maybe re-read your post because I almost didn't understand a single thing. It's a mess (sorry if it sounds rude, not my intention). Anyways, I'll reply to it tomorrow because I have stuff to do tonight.

[GalacticWolf5]

Renegade has always been red and paragon has always been blue.

 

Obviously, we all know that. (Though the Renegade symbole was green in ME1, which I always found weird)

 

I mean that not everything is Renegade if it's red. Same goes for blue and Paragon.

 

If the lasers fired by a weapon are red, are you gonna say that the weapon is renegade?

 

Red doesn't always equal Renegade.

 

Blue doesn't always equal Paragon.

[Stronglav]

Ending is a lie.There is only marauder shields.

[masster blaster]

I guess what I meant is that is what the Reapers want us to think. Anderson was always a good guy, while Illusive Man was always one evil dude and never a good guy.

 

Anderson suddenly being painted as renegade (red, destroy), while Illusive Man is being painted as paragon (blue, control) doesn't fit unless the Reapers are lying to you. Which seems to be the case.

That is part of it. It mainly has to do with the themes behind them. Anderson represent Destroy and what we originally were set out to do. TIM represents  control in which is a mystery to us since controlling the Reapers seems unlikely. Both characters are shown in their prospective endings in which they stand by. 

 

For the renegade option it would make sense to pick Destroy since you are killing all synthetic life. However in light of this theory it isn't the case. It is more about the prospective in which we have the resolve to do what has to be done. In control it is more of the Paragon option since you are going to save everyone, yet in theory wise. picking control means you side with the Reapers and let them take over Shepard.

[masster blaster]

Masster Blaster, maybe re-read your post because I almost didn't understand a single thing. It's a mess (sorry if it sounds rude, not my intention). Anyways, I'll reply to it tomorrow because I have stuff to do tonight.

Sorry if I wrote it a bit sloppy and alright. Though i did space out the paragraphs, made sure each point you pointed out was refuted in a way, and just spelled out the catalyst logic and how it conflicts with it's idea. I say this since all that the catalyst does is the opposite, you can say it is still doing what it intended to to BUT the prime issue is that it use organics and synthetics to wage war on one another. It creates/prolongs them. It fails to realize this and granted it now has 'Options" thanks to the crucible yet synthesis option comes out of no where doesn't it?

 

Control being there made somewhat sense, seeing how cycles have been having conflicts of controlling and wanting to destroy the Reapers. However Destroy being an option to kill the Reapers makes the most sense. Synthesis however is just there and gathering the assets to build the crucible doesn't seem like synthesis was ever going to be a "possibility"

 

Moreover the soul reason everything has been happening again is because the A.I simply can't understand when it is wrong and foretells it's own logic to be right and all knowing. It didn't calculate Shepard living in Destroy ending, nor should it be able to assume that in synthesis everything shall go in peace. This isn't something that can't be done, Machina aside, it is propitious to think that way. If we truly look at Destroy we see the galaxy all rebuilt and there is hope. However the cycle was suppose to happen again. Considering on how it used a 'What if" line, i highly doubt synthesis should be swell and control.

 

Therefore by knowing thy enemy, by turning reality against Shepard, it is easy for the player to want to save everyone. After all isn't that what we want? To save as many as we can without much loss? To not ever think of this happening ever again? To have victory at out tips and we don't have to stain Shepard's hands with the "blood" of innocents? Must be another way?

 

It's why you have to pay attention to the catalyst and what he says.  The moment you slip up and find yourself "understanding" it's logic without the in justification   of the Reapers actions as well as its own for crimes against both synthetics and organics. And if one says the catalyst is still right since it is simply doing what it was meant to do,  It's rather the opposite and ironic in a way. Kills his creators in order to preserve them as final option. turns organics and synthetics upon one another, TURNS the Protheans into the collectors rather than make a Reaper and "preserve them" instead turns them into creatures that no longer ARE protheans without will.  Uses the Geth to weaken the galaxy and help Sov's and Saren unlock the Citadel Mass relay . Indoctrinates people to kill others, to even risk the Reapers themselves dying in the "So called preservation"

 

It cares not for life or death, it is simply a monster that needs to die. People also forget that the husk, and the other Reaper forces gain awareness....in Synthesis and are Shepard's slaves in control. To what rights that the Catalyst don't mention are justifiable? People bash Destroy about killing the geth and Edi BUT  actually keeping the dead around in a sick twisted fantasy in which nobody can ever regain what is lose??? All because of "peace" that is promised when it should be earned with them dead.

 

Granted all of this is considered to be a grand indoctrination test to see if the player can see the reality of what should happen rather than focus on the "good benefits" Much how instead of always taking what you see is true, why not look for things that seem out of place and lead to more findings?

[masster blaster]

Ending is a lie.There is only marauder shields.

Never forget......he tried to save us...... lol.

[GalacticWolf5]

The Intelligence's history and purpose:

 

More than 1 000 000 000 years ago, the galaxy was ruled by the Leviathans. Every species was enthralled by them and were used to give tribute to the Leviathans. Overtime, the Leviathans noticed that the lesser species (the other Sentient Organic species) would build Synthetics, then that conflict would always erupt between the two and the machines would destroy the Organics. To solve this problem, they created the Intelligence, an AI with the mandate to preserve all life (Organic and Synthetic). The Leviathan failed to understand that by doing this they were part of the problem themselves. Every species in the galaxy were their tools, they saw the Intelligence as simply another tool.

 

In order to have Organics and Synthetics living together, there needs to be peace between both. As proven, there is always conflict between Organics and Synthetics at some point. The Intelligence has to fix this, it needs to find a way to make lasting peace (which we know isn't possible without Synthesis). It studied the devellopement of civilizations with pawns that would collect physical data from various Organic species in the galaxy. The Intelligence determined that Organics create Synthetics to improve their own existence, but those improvements have limits. To exceed those limits, Synthetics must be allowed to evolve. They must, by definition, surpass their creators. The result is inevitable chaos and destruction, so the Intelligence chose to resolve the problem of Organic-Synthetic conflict by putting in place a system which would prevent any civilization from reaching such a point. Previous solutions always failed and conflic would come back. The Intelligence's solution took the form of the Reapers. The Intelligence turned on its creators, using its pawns to slaughter the Leviathans and process them into a construct based on their likeness. This construct was the very first Reaper, known as Harbinger. The memories of the Leviathans used to create Harbinger were preserved as the Reaper's gestalt consciousness, which in turn was incorporated into the Intelligence itself.

 

The Intelligence's solution dictated that all spacefaring Organic and Synthetic species would be harvested, with millions of bodies and minds from each race being processed and converted into new Reapers made in Harbinger's image, even as the Reapers themselves worked to destroy their civilizations. By doing this, the Reapers synthetically preserved the harvested race's genetic makeup and collective knowledge, while simultaneously allowing for more primitive races to advance. This harvest ensured that the threat of complete annihilation of Organics by Synthetics was effectively averted.

 

While the Intelligence regarded this solution as near-perfect, it strove to fulfill its purpose and reach a superior solution. To this end, it commanded the Reapers to build the Mass Relays and the Citadel, speeding the development of civilizations during each cycle and increasing the efficiency of the entire process. The entire galaxy became the Intelligence's "experiment" as it continued to harvest races and collect ever more data in an effort to find the ultimate answer to the conflict. The Intelligence came upon the idea of merging Organic and Synthetic life as a possible solution and attempted to do so numerous times in the past, but it always resulted in failure. It blames Organics for the failure, stating they were not ready and that the process cannot be forced.

 

The Reapers and the Harvest

 

The Reapers gather and process vast numbers of individuals from each of the galaxy's sentient spacefaring races. Victims who cooperate with or are captured by Reaper husks are rounded up into camps, where the husks select individuals deemed fit for processing; it is believed that the husks use scent or chemical receptors to analyze the genetic composition of victims. Those who are deemed unsuitable are turned into more husks. Individuals who are determined to be suitable for processing are loaded onto Reaper Processors, where they are ushered into single-person pods. Like a slaughterhouse, the interior of the Processor is designed to prevent any visual or auditory contact between individuals being processed. Once in the pods, the victims are dissolved into a raw genetic "paste" for ease of transport. This paste will then be used in the construction of a newborn Reaper, with the victims' minds being preserved to form the Reaper's gestalt consciousness. Available information suggests that a single race is harvested during each cycle to produce Reaper Capital Ships; it appears that other space-faring races harvested during the cycle are used to produce Destroyer-class Reapers. Exactly how or why this distinction is made is unknown.

 

Synthetic-Organic Conflict

 

This repeating conflict is not just a idea that the Intelligence has. It's a real conflict that does repeat itself. It happened during the time of the Leviathans, it happened during the Prothean Cycle (the Metacon War, which the Prothean Empire almost won but the Reapers arrived), our cycle and the countless cycles that we don't know about. You can't deny this conflict. It is a fact in the ME Universe. Conflict is inevitable. There will always be conflict (Unless Synthesis is achieved), whether it be Organics vs Organics, Organics vs Synthetics or Synthetics vs Synthetics.

 

-Peace between the Geth and Quarians: It won't last. As proven by the countless cycles before, conflict will come back. Whether it will come back in 10 years, 50 years or 200 years doesn't matter, it will.

 

Shepard and Indoctrination

 

As I've said before, we would've known if Shepard was indoctrinated. On many occasions, a presence of indoctrination in Shepard would've been detected.

 

-The Leviathans: When encountering the Leviathan, it access Shepard's mind and is able to use it as it wants. It would've have known if Shepard was indoctrinated or was being indoctrinate.

 

-Vendetta: Perhaps Vendetta was a unique AI in which it could detect Indoctrinated presence. It's an AI that's purpose is to help the next cycle in putting an end to the Reaper threat, so it's normal that it would be able to detect Indoctrinated people because it would ensure that it wouldn't fall into the wrong hands. I wasn't saying that all AIs during the Prothean Cycle could detect Indoctrination. Also, it isn't said anywhere that Vendetta only detects people that are fully indoctrinated. But, Vendetta would've detected it during Priority: Cerberus HQ because it's only a couple hours before Shepard gets in the Citadel and Indoctrination doesn't happen that fast.

 

- The Epilogue Slides: Every ending has epilogue slides and they can completely disprove IT. Shepard is dead in some endings, why would the Reapers show him all of this if he's dead? He is dead, he doesn't see any of that. I'll go furthur into this when I'll talk about the endings.

 

- Confirmation that Shepard is on the Citadel during the breath scene: This proves that what happened in the decision chamber actually happened.

 

The Crucible/Catalyst aka The Citadel

 

The Crucible was created millions of years ago by unknown creators and was perfected through out many cycles. The Crucible is designed to use the technology of the Mass Relays, due to it being nothing more than a power source. It is why the Crucible must be connected to the Citadel. The Citadel transmits the energy of the Crucible through the Relay network, making the effects of the Crucible galaxy wide.

 

The Endings

 

Destroy: In this endings, the energy of the Crucible is used to target the Reapers, and every other Synthetic life form, and destroys them. Doing so also destoys the Intelligence and damages the Relays and the Citadel. Your EMS aslo determines how much damage the galaxy receives from the energy wave and if Shepard dies or not (Breath scene).

 

Synthetic-Organic conflict will come back if the Organics decide to build Synthetics again (which they most likely will, legally or not) and the Reapers won't be there to stop it, so whatever happens happens. What if Synthetics won and killed every Organic civilizations? Oh well, Milky Way is ruled by Synthetics. What if the Organics managed to win by uniting themselves like the Prothean Empire did? Awesome, but be ready for the next war when you decide to build Synthetics again.

 

Now, about the epilogue slides: Why would the Intelligence show this to a dead Shepard? Shepard is dead. DEAD. There's no point in showing him this. Also, the Intelligence itself would be dead too, so it's impossible. Why would the Intelligence take the time to show to a dead man how the galaxy recovers? It doesn't even make sense.

 

As I've said before, it's been confirmed by a Dev (I believe it was Mike Gamble? Someone correct me if I'm wrong) that Shepard is on the Citadel during the breath scene, which confirms that what happened in the decision chamber really happened.

 

Control: In this endings, the energy of the Crucible is used to make Shepard the new Reaper master consciouness. Doing so also replaces the Intelligence (so it doesn't exist anymore) and damages the Relays. Your EMS aslo determines how much damage the galaxy receives from the energy wave. Now, Shepard isn't technically dead, as his mind is still present as a Synthetic. Choosing Control isn't giving up to indoctrinaton. The Intelligence says that people who are Indoctrinated cannot control the Reapers. TIM couldn't because he was indoctrinated. Shepard can because he's not indoctrinated.

 

Symbolic wise whenever Shepard throws the gun down or lowers it Shepard gives himself/herself over yet in Destroy there is willpower and defines.

 

.... is Shepard supposed to hold is gun up while also holding on to two electrical handles? He only has two hands you know. Also, he's badly injured and he's holding onto two electrical handles that are dissolving him, if that's not willpower I don't know what is.

 

About the Reaper troops, Shepard doesn't have to use them. You decide what your Shepard would do with them because it's your Shepard. Also, they're not shown in the epilogue slides, so you're free to headcanon all you want about them.

 

Also, if you didn't know, Control has a Paragon version and a Renegade version. It is not the Paragon ending because it's blue, just like Destroy isn't the Renegade ending.

 

Synthesis: In this ending, the energy of the Crucible is used to transform all life in the galaxy into a new hybrid of Synthetic-Organic life. Doing so leaves Intelligence alive and damages the Relays and the Citadel. Shepard is obviously dead in this ending. Peace is achieved, the Intelligence's purpose is fulfilled. The line between Organics and Synthetics is blurred, they both fully understand each other, etc.

 

Symbolic wise whenever Shepard throws the gun down or lowers it Shepard gives himself/herself over yet in Destroy there is willpower and defines.

 

Shepard actually starts running and jumps even though he is very badly injured, if that's not willpower I don't know what is.

 

About the epilogue slides, it's the same thing as Destroy's when Shepard is dead. Why would the Intelligence show this to a dead Shepard? Shepard is dead.There's no point in showing him this and it doesn't make any sense.

 

Refusal: In this ending, Shepard refuses to use the Crucible and the Reaper successfully harvest our cycle.

 

Why would the Intelligence show a dead Shepard one of Liara's time capsule transmitting a message on an uncharted world?

 

Also, if, as you say, the decision chamber is an hallucination and that only Destroy allows Shepard to wake up on Earth (which he doesn't), why would refusal be a choice and why make Shepard hallucinate something that's really happening? Why doesn't he just wake up on Earth in this ending too? Simple answer: Because Indoctrinaton Theory isn't real.

 

Do I agree with the Intelligence's solution?

 

No. The harvest isn't a good thing IMO. Though it does partially fulfill the Intelligence's purpose (I say partially because Synthesis is what fully fulfills it), I do not agree with it. Which is why I chose Control. my Shepard will use the Reapers differently in order to solve this conflict the best way he can.

 

---------------------------------------------

 

Man that's a huge wall of text. I hope you'll actually take the time to read it. Thanks to the wikia for putting into words half of this

[SwobyJ]

Sigh.